Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Weed Harper (talk | contribs) at 22:31, 4 January 2005 (→Herschelkrustofsky Interference). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

On October 10, 2004, 4 months of intensive edit warring over the content of this and related articles were resolved through compromise. The previous discussion on this talk page has been archived at Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/archive1. I sincerely hope that future editing of this article can be done in conformity with Misplaced Pages NPOV policy. --Herschelkrustofsky 12:51, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Im suprised that this page doesn't talk about certain things. I picked up what appeared to be a LaRouce written magazine which appeared to set forth his political outlook, and essentially it sayed that FDR was the best president and laid down what might be called a "conspiracy" theory that politicians afterwards were influenced away from FDR's direction by this group of people associated with this international meeting, one I had never heard about before. Can anyone chime in on this?

I think LaRouche's view is that FDR was the best president of the 20th Century -- if I'm not mistaken, he has said that Lincoln was the best president overall. If you could be more specific about the "international meeting," I might be able to chime in on it. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:49, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I can't remember the name of it at all, but it took place back in the era of black and white pictures ;). What I read basically said it was these men at that meeting who eventually got control of the government and instigated that bread and circuses that is the 60's with programs like MKULTRA.

That would be the Congress for Cultural Freedom. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:16, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

SlimVirgin's latest contribution

The purpose of the first section of the article is to present LaRouche's core beliefs and provide a summary of his world view. The "conspiracy theory" section comes under "criticism of LaRouche" because it is a discussion of things that LaRouche may actually have said, which his opponents believe fall under the pejorative category of "conspiracy theories."

SlimVirgin has inserted the material from Take a Break magazine into this section, and then tried to move the entire section into the "core beliefs" portion of the article, because he wishes to assert that it is just unforgiveably wacky and iconoclastic to suggest that the world's weathiest and most visible aristocratic family acts like a bunch of overdressed refugees from The Godfather, even to the point of "bumping off" its perceived enemies, and that anyone (such as Princess Diana herself) who would suggest such a thing must be avoided, ridiculed, banned from Misplaced Pages, or dealt with even more harshly. It is for this reason that Slim's latest contribution belongs under "criticism of LaRouche." I am leaving the NPOV dispute tag up until there is a consensus on this topic. --Herschelkrustofsky 12:37, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The structure of the article

The structure came about as a result of the mediation of Snowspinner, which ended four months of incessant edit wars. The first section of the article is comprised of views of LaRouche that his supporters, such as myself, consider most important. The second section is comprised of views, or in some cases alleged views, that anti-LaRouche activists such as yourself, Slim, prefer to emphasize. I have re-worked the subject headers to make this more explicit. Please do not move your edits into the first section without first presenting an argument on this talk page as to why the present structure is unfair or misleading. The present structure came about as a result of much hard work and compromise. --Herschelkrustofsky 16:14, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Facts about LaRouche & Democracy

I posted:

"He does not currently appear to advocate the abolition of democracy or the imposition of authoritarian rule."

Herschelkrustofsky changed this to:

"He has never publicly advocated the abolition of democracy or the imposition of authoritarian rule."

Here are quotes from LaRouche:

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"We shall end the rule of irrationalist episodic majorities, of British liberal notions of 'democracy.'"

"Creating a Republican Labor Party" Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Citizens for LaRouche Policy Statement, c. 1980

This indicates LaRouche's preference for a Constitutional Republic, Chip, as opposed to, for example, the tactics of Arnold Schwarzenneger, who wishes to bypass the California State legislature by running lots of deceptive initiative campaigns. To extrapolate from that LaRouche wants to abolish democracy or impose authoritarian rule is sophistry, of the type that has earned you the bad reputation among serious opponents of authoritarianism. --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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"America must be cleansed for its righteous war by the immediate elimination of the Nazi Jewish Lobby and other British agents from the councils of government, industry, and labor."

"A War-winning Strategy", Editorial, New Solidarity, March 1978

It would appear that someone is taking LaRouche's advice right now, given that AIPAC has been raided for the second time in several months. And although I know you wish to insinuate that this quote is anti-Semitic, what does it have to do with democracy or authoritarianism? --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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LaRouche wrote that history would not judge harshly those who beat homosexuals to death with baseball bats to stop the spread of AIDS.

He did? When and in what publication did he do that? --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche: "Can we imagine anything more viciously sadistic than the Black Ghetto mother?"

Please provide a reference for this quote, so that the context may be established. --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Larouche 1973 memo to members, reported in Wasington Post, 1/14/1985 --Cberlet 04:29, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

1. What is the context?

2. What does it have to do with democracy? Weed Harper 06:54, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche wrote that most Chinese people are "approximating the lower animal species" by manifesting a "paranoid personality....a parallel general form of fundamental distinction from actual human personalities."

Please provide a reference for this quote, so that the context may be established. And having done that, please explain how these purported quotes represent an advocacy of authoritarianism. --H.K. 22:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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So I think it is legitimate to suggest that in the past LaRouche has written material that seems "to advocate the abolition of democracy or the imposition of authoritarian rule."

But perhaps it should be "In the past LaRouche has scoffed at parliamentary democracy, suggested the appropriateness of physically attacking his political enemies, and issued racist staements about Blacks and Chinese."

Is that a more neutral Point of View given LaRouche's past quotes? --Cberlet 23:17, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chip, you can include any material that is properly referenced. In the case of quoting LaRouche, you'd have to be able to provide either a link to that quote, or a date and name of publication. If you're providing a more general criticism of LaRouche, without an actual quote, you'd have to provide the name and date of a reputable publication (Washington Post, just as an example). So long as you stick to those rules (see Misplaced Pages:cite sources and Misplaced Pages:verifiability), you can use the material, and if Herschelkrustofsky reverts it, you can change it back again. He is not allowed to delete properly referenced material, and he is not allowed to insert material of his own that is not properly referenced. Slim 23:35, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

I need to dig up some of my archives to get some of the cites, then I will edit the page and provide links to a list of cites.--Cberlet 06:13, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Train meeting claims by LaRouchites

Much of the LaRouche material about the Train meetings is simply a series of unsubstantiated claims that are not linked by logic to their conclusions. The affidavit by Quinde is simply his point of view. An affidavit not tested in court is not a proof. As I have mentioned on several other LaRouche-linked pages, I propose moving all the discussion of the Train meetings to one page so that it can be debated and edited in one place. --Cberlet 06:13, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The essential facts about the meetings are undisputed: a whole gaggle of LaRouche's opponents got together at Train's home, talked about LaRouche, and then trotted off to write articles accusing him of various things. Chip characterizes the meeting he attended as a "debate", but the thing that I find most revealing about the meetings is the "strange bedfellows" aspect, particularly because Chip is always denouncing certain leftwingers for consorting with certain rightwingers -- and Chip does not deny (see Talk:Chip Berlet) that his travel expenses to attend his particular Train Salon meeting were paid by the representative of the John Birch Society. --HK 15:25, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rees was not a representative of the John Birch Society. That's just false. I am willing to debate the Train meeting text, but not spread across many pages. This page is already over length. Moving details to United States v. LaRouche --Cberlet 16:14, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Just how would you describe Rees, then? See .

The Train meetings are essential to understanding the controversy about LaRouche's views, and must not be deleted from this article -- or the one about Chip Berlet. --HK 16:35, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rees was then with the Maldon Institute, not the JBS, a group with which he no longer worked.--Cberlet 16:48, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Herschelkrustofsky Interference

Herschelkrustofsky's reversion is unfair and creates much repetition. This page was over length. The discussion of the Train meeting belongs in the United States v. LaRouche page because the LaRouche people themselves claim it is central to his prosecution, a claim that is disputed. It makes no sense to have the same material on two or three pages. My edit included a mention of the Train meeting and a link to its new location United States v. LaRouche. This is blatant pro-LaRouche propaganda and interference; not fair and accurate editing. I protest. --Cberlet 16:56, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have noted on the talk page for United States v. LaRouche that I don't think the Train material is needed on that page. Bear in mind that 6 months ago, there was only one article, of modest length; the present, relatively voluminous set of articles was the result of extensive negotiations and compromise, in order to bring fierce edit wars to a close. I asked that the Train material be included in Political views of Lyndon LaRouche, because that was where the majority of the propagandistic slurs and unfounded speculation, coming from Berlet and others, was posted, and the Train material helps explain the discrepancy between LaRouche's stated views, and those imputed to him by his critics. The inclusion of the Train material was essentially part of a compromise which also included the inclusion of material from Berlet and from the International Workers Party. The edit wars over LaRouche articles have largely subsided since early October, and I would certainly prefer that it remain that way. --HK 22:00, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Only a tiny handful of LaRouche followers and an even smaller group of conspiracy buffs thinks the Train material is important. This page is already too long. The Train material has been moved to United States v. LaRouche.--Cberlet 00:52, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

More unfair conduct by HK. If we are going to be forced to debate the Train meeting material, it should only be on one page. HK keeps placing it on several pages. This is not fair. It has no value on this page. It is just another place where HK wants to engage in a personal attack on me.--Cberlet 13:53, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I am deleting the duplicate material on all pages except the Train meeting page. --Cberlet 13:53, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Chip appears to be attempting to whitewash his role in the whole LaRouche affair. Since this article serves as a forum of sorts for the scurrilous attacks of Chip and his colleagues, some minimal discussion of LaRouche's critics is essential. It is not "duplicate material" -- it is a succinct description, linked to an article with more detail. --HK 16:01, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A succinct description seems like it would also mention that the idea has minimal respect outside of LaRouche followers, no? Snowspinner 16:22, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not certain how you could document that -- perhaps by conducting a scientific opinion poll? -- but you could certainly say that the characterization of the meetings is disputed by LaRouche's opponents, as is clear in the Train article. --22:26, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have serious trouble believing the alternative, which is that the Train theory is widely accepted. Regardless, it seems a major enough point that it ought to be mentioned whenever the Train theory is brought up. Snowspinner 23:53, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

Berlet

It is clear to me that Berlet is trying to hijack Misplaced Pages to promote his (ahem) commercial endeavors. The Train Meetings material never should have been removed from Political views of Lyndon LaRouche. Berlet wants to promote his POV by quoting from his own website (SlimVirgin take note: Misplaced Pages prohibits original research) and he wants to ban any scrutiny of his role as a quote unquote "researcher." There is absolutely no reason for a seperate article on the Train Salon. Weed Harper 22:31, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)