Talk:Scottish people - Misplaced Pages

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Scottish people was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
December 22, 2007	Good article nominee	Not listed

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Scottish soldiers in Poland

The mentioned soldiers fought against Poland, they belonged rather to Sweden.Xx236 (talk) 07:48, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

ref mentions him overseeing building of some ships, not creating navy

Was there any other navy in Poland?Xx236 (talk) 11:34, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

King David - invasion not invitation

The section mentioning King David perpetuates the myth that the Normans were 'invited' into Scotland rather than that they invaded and conquered it. The Wiki pages on King David and his sponsor Henry I tell a very different and far more accurate account. David did not simply 'return from exile' but invaded at the head of a Norman army and rather than 'assume' Kingship took it by force in the face of Scots armed opposition. The ultimate consequence was that a new and now Lowland-based 'Kingdom of Scotland' became in reality Britain's second Anglo-Norman kingdom. Cassandra.

Whether it's by invasion or invitation not really relevant, but should be consistent among articles, but yes absolutely post-Davidian Revolution Scotland undeniably becomes an Anglo-Norman kingdom along more feudal, continental lines. David I occupies a vaguely similar role in the line of Scottish kings as William the Conqueror does in the line of English kings.

Celtic Ethnicity

"The Scottish people (Scots: Scots Fowk; Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich) or Scots, are a nation and Celtic ethnic group"

In what sense are the Scottish people a Celtic ethnic group, exactly? This is a really, really strange opening line. The vast majority of Scots don't speak a Celtic language and haven't for centuries, in some areas by as much as 1500 years. So we're not linguistically or culturally Celtic. As for ethnically Celtic, what exactly is that? What is ethnically Celtic or Germanic or Slavic, exactly when these broad linguistic groups vary internally by genetics so drastically?

The only Celtic Scots would be the ones that speak Gaelic, which is around 1% of them. The remainder would obviously be Germanic. I am aware the Scottish people like to often refer to themselves as Celtic, but if they started commonly referring to themselves as a Slavic ethnic group would they be one? Of course they wouldn't.

Slipped in in this edit. It isn't meaningful. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree it's not really a huge deal, but I think we should stay away from... folk traditions? On an encyclopedia. It's fine to mention in the article for example somewhere that the Scots identify with their Celtic past, as they clearly do, and that they retain aspects and elements of this in their modern culture and identity, Austrians and Galicians do this with their Celtic past too for example, but to make a sort of objective statement like this in the opening line as if it is grounded in any kind of fact or academic classification, I just think it always sets a very bad precedent.

You know what is quite hilarious is that Austria and Galicia were denied acceptance into the Celtic League on the grounds that they were "not Celtic enough", despite Austria containing the original homeland of the Celtic peoples/languages.

Misleading

This entire article is fairly misleading, is it not? The idea that the Scottish were some defined ethnic group with a language who then absorbed others isn't quite the case. The Scottish historically were exclusively Gaels, speakers of the Gaelic tongue and they conquered territories with Norse and English peoples. They managed to Gaelicize the Norse over centuries (and before this the Picts) but the English were never Gaelicized and instead ended up becoming the majority ethnic group in Scotland over centuries.

For most of its recent historical period, about the 1100s onwards, Scotland was bitterly divided around 50/50 between English Lowlanders (who had existed as a powerful minority in southeast Scotland since around the 500s and grown from there) and Irish Highlander people (who ironically followed a very similar path as the English beginning as a powerful minority in western Scotland and spreading out from there), who were only really held together by a Norman/French elite ruling class.

Around the 1400s the English in Scotland just decided to adopt the term Scottish for themselves and their language, basically, thenceforth referring to the Scottish as Irish or Gaelic exclusively. To paint this image of some all embracing Scottish ethnic identity is inaccurate, Medieval Scotland would have been more akin to Belgium or Switzerland with a political state/identity containing 2 distinct ethnic groups, and later a third minority group with the Norse from Shetland and Orkney while they still spoke it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 14:39, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

"The idea" you attribute appears to be your own. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:36, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you suggesting Gaels and English within Scotland did see each other as kinsman? As one people and ethnic group? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you going to disappear again now you've been rebuked? What's that the 4th discussion you've left hanging open failing to come up with any response or defense for your stance on the issue? Do you want to tell me why James VI of Scotland, who was ethnically English, wished to eradicate Gaelic culture/language in Scotland and even entertained ideas of genocide to achieve it if they were all truly one harmonious ethnic group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I am suggesting that you are reading things into the article that are not there. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:03, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I apologize, Mutt, you are totally right as well the article does actually go into the ethnic divides within historical Scotland quite a deal. I just find the article in general misleading as the idea that all these groups are equally "Scottish" is confusing. They're all geographically Scottish, sure, they were all politically Scottish when Scotland existed as a sovereign state. But to be ethnically Scottish was always the Gaelic ethnolinguistic group, which of course nowadays only accounts for 1% of the population at best.

It goes into a much wider issue with Misplaced Pages when labeling people like Henry Morton Stanley as Welsh, I guess. Or Thomas the Rhymer as Scottish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Ethnic Group

The article doesn't really touch on what constitutes the people of Scotland as a distinct ethnic group. For example in the articles of most other ethnic groups (Dutch, Greeks, Germans etc.) it will touch on how they are a people united by speaking the language associated with them and to a lesser extent by some shared cultural features (although like most ethnic groups culture varies by region and is less of a binding force than language and perhaps blood).

Does anyone have any sources for what the people of Scotland consider to constitute as ethnic Scottish? Is it just being born in an area of land or what? If it is, isn't this just a regional identity or more of a civic national identity (which is a strange concept itself seeing as Scotland is currently a region of a highly centralized state) as opposed to an actual ethnic identity? It seems to be a problem afflicting the articles on 'ethnic groups' pertaining to the British Isles in general. Where groups traditionally based around the speaking of a language (be it Gaelic/Irish, Welsh/British or otherwise) are still trying to retain, or in some cases resurrect, a distinct ethnic identity without speaking that language. As opposed to what many objective outsiders might just see as a regional identity of a larger ethnic group they have been subsumed into over time.

It's a strange issue and maybe bears some mentioning on these articles. After all nobody talks about being Pictish today do they? Picts disappeared as an ethnic group when they began speaking Irish/Gaelic, even though their genetics lived on.

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