This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sca (talk | contribs) at 13:51, 19 September 2019 (→Hyphenation of compound modifiers: link). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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• ... that a critic described GNX, after its surprise release, as Kendrick Lamar's "greatest work" yet? why do we need the quotes? Therapyisgood (talk) 02:37, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
• that ballet dancer Nina Tikhonova taught dance for free to children who had been orphaned during World War II? The source reads "After World War II, she taught dance at orphanages for children whose parents had been killed by the Nazis and directed her own ballet school in Paris", with no mention of cost, or lack thereof. Pinging User:Spiderpig662, User:4meter4. Sincerely, Dilettante 04:03, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks, Dilettante! fixed :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:08, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

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• In blurb first sentence at "to study human movement under simulator lunar gravity conditions" the word "simulator" should be 'simulated'. JennyOz (talk) 11:41, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  Done, ta. Stephen 02:02, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

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General discussion

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Non-breaking spaces in dates

There are two separate complaints currently in MPE re the lack of non-breaking spaces in dates.

My personal opinion is that non-breaking spaces should be used in all blurbs on the Main Page. However, others may disagree. Please can we discuss whether or not the following instruction should be introduced? Mjroots (talk) 14:00, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

The use of non-breaking spaces is mandated in blurbs on the main page when used in dates and measurements.

• Support Mjroots (talk) 14:00, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support. As far as I'm concerned they should be mandated on all public-facing parts of Misplaced Pages, but life's too short to argue with the handful of zealots who act as the self-proclaimed gatekeepers of Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers. On the Main Page, where the relatively narrow columns makes it more likely that any given piece of text will be at the end of a line, it should be a no-brainer. ‑ Iridescent 15:19, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
• Yeah, I support this too. It just makes sense to keep dates all on the same line, rather than splitting them in twain. — 🦊 00:12, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support for consistency and better style, although I have encountered some opposition in the past from User:Dank regarding this issue in the context of TFA blurbs. I note also that all of the OTD templates would need to be lightly reformatted to nowrap the date at the very top, but this isn't really a major problem as it's highly unlikely to be wrapped anyway. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 16:00, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
• Question: Is there any objection to leaving TFA blurbs alone (at blurb reviews, WP:TFAR and WP:TFAA) for a week before they're subjected to any non-MOS-compliant edits, so that FAC writers and reviewers will be dealing with text that's familiar to them while they're editing and reviewing the blurbs? If that's acceptable, then I don't need to take a position. (Note: I removed "etc." from the end of what we're voting on ... none of the voters so far seem to be endorsing a blank check on nbsp rules.) - Dank (push to talk) 18:47, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose as "proposed". I understand why this may be more of a problem on the main page where column width is narrower and thus breaking spaces mid-date etc is more likely to occur, but why isn't this still a problem in every other article across Misplaced Pages? Surely this should really be discussed as a MOS adjustment which would then naturally flow to main page blurbs, hooks, etc? Are we going to add a specific formatting rule in each of TFA, TFL, TFP, DYK and OTD to mandate this? Where does that instruction live in each case? I don't have a major beef with this but it seems to be the cart leading the horse. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 19:53, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support – Per discussion below, this is already MOS. I support rigorous application of MOS:NBSP on the Main Page, even if it is not widely used or very important on articles. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 17:14, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

• @Dank: Perhaps I'm being dense, but I don't understand what you're asking for. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:16, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
  • You're never being dense, Floq. I'm asking that any non-MOS-compliant edits be deferred until writers and reviewers have a chance to discuss the blurbs. I'm not going to lead any charges here ... I'm not a pro- or anti-anything warrior. I'm almost always happy with the way Main Page discussions turn out. But no one is disputing the facts: neither MOS, nor the usual practices among Good Article and Featured Article writers, support what's being proposed here. I don't want to get dragged into other people's fights. If you guys will just leave us alone for a week while we do blurb reviews before you add nbsps or other cosmetic changes, I don't think this is an issue that my writers are going to care much about one way or the other. - Dank (push to talk) 19:46, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
• @Ravenpuff: - if the date is highly unlikely to be split in a header, then it can be left alone. @The Rambling Man: - let's walk before we can run. Yes, this is something that could be mandated at MOS, but this proposal is put forward to address a specific problem in a specific place. @Dank: Early indications are that there will be support. How does an implementation date of 1 October sound to you? Does that give enough time for people to get used to the idea? Mjroots (talk) 04:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

  Well no, it's the other way round as far as I'm concerned. Blurbs should follow MOS, not make up their own rules. Are there other rules unique to blurbs which aren't covered by MOS? If so, where are they described? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 06:12, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

  I've left a pointer and a note at WT:FAC. - Dank (push to talk) 17:45, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

  Doesn't seem to be much interest from the FAC regulars. Mjroots (talk) 07:09, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

• I asked a couple of fundamental questions about the logistics of such a mandate, I'm still wondering how this works in practice. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 17:19, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

  @The Rambling Man: It's been a while since this discussion has been active, but the way I see it is that this proposal for greater use of non-breaking spaces in Main Page content is more or less already in line with the Manual of Style's guideline on their use (at MOS:NBSP), just that most editors don't seem to bother with using them when writing articles. What's being proposed here, in my opinion, is just to mandate a more rigorous application of the above guideline so as to maintain better style on our welcome mat. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 09:37, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Propose archiving Main Page history twice a day when DYK is on 12-hour schedule

I have been discussing the idea of saving the Main Page twice a day when User:DYKUpdateBot/Time Between Updates is 43200 and go back to once a day when it is 86400. I discussed the matter with Amalthea over here and proceeded to work with Danski454 to create some templates to use on Template:Main Page history. You can find them at:

• Template:Main Page history generic calendar – this will be used to create the templates each year like the one for 2019 below
• Template:2019 Main Page history – this template can be created using the template above using the following:

{{subst:Main Page history generic calendar|venue=Main Page history|year=2019}}
<noinclude>
{{documentation}}
]
</noinclude>

To work properly, the individual year templates like 2019 Main Page history have to be edited manually when we switch back and forth (which I will handle myself for the foreseeable future). A demo of how they look can be seen at Template:2019 Main Page history/sandbox, which over the next few days will start growing redlinks labeled 16a, 16b, 17a, 17b.... These redlinks would be blue when Amalthea (bot) starts archiving twice a day after consesus is formed here.

I will write template documentations and ensure implementation of this plan moving forward. But before I do, I wanted the community's blessing and comments. Please feel free to ask questions and point out any issues we have not foreseen.

TL;DR: I would like to archive the Main Page twice a day when there are two DYKs a day. Just need your blessing or criticism.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 13:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• Sounds like a good idea to me. It's clearly sensible to have both morning and afternoon versions of the MP archived, when they differ. Thanks for looking into this.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:44, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
• Good idea, and since it's a manual edit and you're willing to take care of it, I think it would be useful --valereee (talk) 16:05, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
• Two shapshots sounds fine but I think the first on a day should still be called Misplaced Pages:Main Page history/2019 September 17, so such page names always exist. A second snapshot could then be called Misplaced Pages:Main Page history/2019 September 17b. I suggest the bot starts adding a non-expanded template call at the top and bottom of snapshots so we can provide information, navigation and categories if we want. For example {{Main page history top|2019|9|17|time|number}} and {{Main page history bottom|2019|9|17|time|number}}, where "time" is the time of day the snapshot was made, and "number" is 1 for the first snapshot of that day, and so on. Some of the parameters could be deduced from the page name but it's good to have them directly. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:08, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

  PrimeHunter, I tested your first proposal at Template:2019 Main Page history/sandbox and see no problem with implementation. As for your second suggestion, can we discuss further elsewhere, perhaps my user talk page or Amalthea (bot)'s talk page before proposing a formal change here. I want to make sure it is done carefully and thought-out thoroughly. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 16:55, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

• This sounds like a viable idea, but I also note that snapshots are currently taken by Amalthea (bot) at 11:20 UTC. This might not capture the "best" version of the day's Main Page, as errors are routinely posted at WP:ERRORS throughout the day; hence, I propose that such snapshots are taken as late as possible (say 11:59 or 23:59), to ensure that any resolved errors in hooks/blurbs are reflected in the corresponding Main Page history. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 09:29, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

  Amalthea, do you see any issues with this suggestion? --- Coffeeandcrumbs 16:57, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Update: I have edited Misplaced Pages:Main Page history to use the new templates in preparation for implementation of this plan and, since there appears to be no opposition to this proposal, I have asked Amalthea to begin archiving twice a day. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 22:08, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Hyphenation of compound modifiers

Note: Much of this, from the AP newsletter Connecting, is common sense, but may be helpful to some:

Clarifying AP Stylebook guidelines on use of hyphens

By Paula Froke, AP Stylebook editor

On recent stories about the new AP Stylebook and hyphens

We have not changed our guidance on use of hyphens in compound modifiers before a noun, and we certainly aren't getting rid of such hyphens. We did expand on our guidance, and we added some detail that has been given in Stylebook Online's Ask the Editor for years. We did change two specific entries to conform to long-standing guidance (first grade student, first quarter touchdown). But reports that we are somehow reducing hyphen usage are just plain wrong. We do hyphenate first-half run. We do hyphenate bases-loaded triple. We do hyphenate disaster-ready.

On the other hand, neither we, nor anyone else, would hyphenate common noun phrases such as chocolate chip cookie, real estate transaction, climate change report, high school teacher, News Leaders Association. We changed from first-grade student to first grade student because the meaning is perfectly clear without the hyphen, just as it is in high school student. Same with first quarter touchdown. There is no such thing as a quarter touchdown.

The entry says, in part:

Think of hyphens as an aid to readers' comprehension. If a hyphen makes the meaning clearer, use it. If it just adds clutter and distraction to the sentence, don't use it.

Later, we say:

When a compound modifier – two or more words that express a single concept – precedes a noun, you must decide: Hyphenate that modifier, or not? Often there's not one absolute answer. But in general: No hyphen is needed if the modifier is commonly recognized as one phrase, and if the meaning is clear and unambiguous without the hyphen. Examples include third grade teacher, chocolate chip cookie, early morning traffic, special effects embellishment, climate change report, public land management, first quarter touchdown, real estate transaction.

Do use a hyphen if it's needed to make the meaning clear and avoid unintended meanings: small-business owner, better-qualified candidate, little-known song, French-speaking people, free-thinking philosophy, loose-knit group. (Think of the different possible meanings or confusion if the hyphen is removed in each of those examples.)

– FWIW. – Sca (talk) 13:44, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Also WP:HYPHEN. They consider several stylebooks including that one. Art LaPella (talk) 14:01, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@Sca, I agree this is useful, but WP:MOS is what we go by here, not AP. This would be better suited for a talk page over there, not the talk page for the main page.Us_NotLose 16:03, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

No website's "manual of style" is an island entire of itself; every English-language website is a piece of the internet, a part of the record of English usage. – Sca (talk) 14:42, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I would also suggest that if this is moved to the MOS talk pages, that it not be quoted at such an extent; in an article we would properly consider this copyvio. Daniel Case (talk) 16:18, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

• Moving it would be one thing, but arbitrarily deleting it is unacceptable. Thanks. – Sca (talk) 13:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Michael Edwardes

When this Main Page lists "Recent deaths" in the "In the News" section, it could include Michael Edwardes. Vorbee (talk) 17:58, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

See WP:ITNC for nominating candidates for the ITN section. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 18:01, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

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