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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Skinny McGee (talk | contribs) at 03:57, 7 December 2006 (credits as listed in CD booklets). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Discussion Archives: 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... 4

Archiving

• This page was not properly archived the first time (using a forward slash instead of a backslash, thereby negating the parent page and erasing the diffs to that point), which makes it impossible to cite. Also, SkinnyMcGee did not link the archive back here, and noted it as being an "inactive" part, and it certainly bears on this discussion. I will attempt to make a linkable archive and may request the history be fixed. Peacekpr 04:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The link to the archive is at the top of the page Dionyseus 05:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not clear on what you mean either. I did use a backslash and the link to the archive works just fine. I did go to the archive and add a link back to the current page. The archived discussion is inactive as we weren't adding content to those sections anymore and I'm sure Oroboros 1/GuardianZ included any relevant information from these sections in her posts regarding the RFC, semi-protection of the page, etc. There is more than enough information here for an editor unfamiliar with the debate to have a full understanding of what's going on, and the archive is easily accessible if they need more. - Skinny McGee 20:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Because you did not do it correctly, there is no link BACK HERE. Plus you noted it was INACTIVE. And you made it too large to fix the link. Nevermind. You have proven to be a sockpuppet though you denied it. And you have removed other SSP templates, and you are attempting to subvert the process. Go right ahead and dig the hole deeper. Peacekpr 04:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this is getting crazy. I followed the instructions on the most common way to archive to the letter. When you pointed out there was not link "BACK HERE," I added one (I just checked and it works fine). I noted it was "INACTIVE" because that's what the instructions said to do and, as I mentioned at least once before, we weren't adding to those sections anymore. I have not been proven to be anyone's sock puppet (the only conclusion was that Defender99 and I were the same, but I already explained that). Saying it over and over again doesn't make it so. I am not attempting to subvert the process, just protecting myself. I am not the one who had Oroboros 1 and GuardianZ talking to each other when they were the same person. When I removed the SSP template off my user page, the supporting article did not exist, so I was perfectly within my rights to do so. You are on a campaign against me and I need to defend myself. - Skinny McGee 14:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I finally figured out what you meant and I was able to fix it with no problem. You seem to have your forward slashes and backslashes confused, which is why I didn't understand what you meant. I did have a backslash in the link to the archive, when it should have been a forwardslash. But everything's fixed now, so hopefully you won't have any more problems with that. - Skinny McGee 17:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Primary differences between article content

OK. After doing the sockpuppet check, and getting part-answers, I am fairly confident there are mainly two parties at work here. I am not counting Dionyseus, since he's done no writing or cited any references in the article. Skinny McGee has made some interview entries, and GuardianZ has make some citations, so there's plenty to work with. I have been going over this discussion for a while and reading the differences between the article versions, and from what I can see, these seem to be three main points that are disagreed upon. (Note on editor names tosave me typing: GZ=GuardianZ; SMG=Skinny McGee).

Primary differences between article content:

• Comparison of most recent between editors in conflict:

1. Label information

• Vargo produced 2 albums, Born of the Night and Realm of Shadows, under his own publishing label, Monolith Graphics.
• Douglas could "find no label support" and infers he did all the distribution on his own through Entity Productions.
• Web archives establish that Monolith Graphcs published and promoted the cds on their webpages as early as: (1998) and (2002), (2003).
• Same search for Entity Productions for that time period indicates site is blocked, so I could gather no archives. Some references such as AMG list Linfaldia, but I can't find anything on them. Amazon.com lists Monolith Graphics, and both Entity and the Monolith companies are on the cd traycards. Since Vargo was the financier (according to Edward Douglas's statement), I tend to think it was Vargo's company Monolith Graphics that was the label. Press material cited by Skinny McGee indicates that Entity Productions took on the distribution "full-time" in 2001, which is after Vargo left the band (or the band decided to part ways). It seems to me that "full-time" means that someone (Vargo) was also distributing and promoting before 2001.
• A minor dispute seems to have only recently cropped up in regard to the 2 albums Born of the Night and Realm of Shadows being "offical soundtracks for Universal Studios Halloween Horror Nights" (note: accolades are for albums, not for a person). Those are also cited by GZ, they appear in older versions of the article, and are removed by SMG. I'm not sure why current members would have an issue with that, but it seems to be something that SMG claims is "demeaning" to the band. I don't see how. Anyway, I don't see the big deal.

2. The time period during which the former and current members meet.

• GZ posted October 1997 (verified by his citations of photo documentation for a gallery opening, a news article on opening (Cleveland TAB Magazine, October 1997), and a 1998 radio interview with Douglas, Vargo and Gavin. SMG side has slightly re-arranged the text in some older versions to make it appear that Vargo joined after the third member, Gavin. (The same sort of "read-between-the-lines" editing also appears in more current interviews with Douglas and Gavin. I think 1997 is the correct year, but current members simply skip over it in current interviews. Plus it would seem impossible to record and release a cd in less time (Cd release was Sept 98 according to band site).

3. Vargo's influence on band's change of focus

• MS seems to have made a jump from several experimental musical genres to one specific genre (gothic/horror) at the same period that Douglas and Vargo met. (I don't see that Gavin was included in this. He was not indicated as being a member of the first line-up). Douglas is credited with a "cinefusion" style. Vargo seems to be very well-known for gothic style. At least two separate reviews and two older interviews cited by GZ, the radio interview, and the Amazon.com album description, indicate Vargo's influence to be the most widely held view at the time. Perhaps that view has changed after the band got into a dispute (I do see where the current members once credited Vargo with inspiration and focus, they now present things differently, or give credit others). But it does seem to be true at the time, up until the 2001 interview cited.

Well, I think that's it as far as the major diffs go. Two editors have already made comments that the band is not meeting the guidelines for WP:MUSIC. But I think the editors here could come to some peaceable resolution. I suggest each take a section, look at the diffs, and see if you can balance the article. You can meet again in a week and see what each has come up with. SMG has done the pictures, but hasn't really posted anything but interviews and awards and a little re-wording to present older events in a different light (one that is not exactly representative of the facts presented at the time). GZ presents citations that are verifiable, even if they are old. Again, I recommend both sides take the above notes on sensationalism and undue weight to heart. I think this will offer both an opportunity to write rather than promote or revert. I do not think that a past member need be diminshed for his contributions, and I do not think the work of one diminishes that of another, but the editors here seem to take each acolade as a personal afront. If you can show a member did something and it was a notable thing that helped the band as a whole, then fine, but don't over-sensationalize one member's work just to make up for the other.

I suggest a new section here on the talk page (recommend archiving again... using forward slash \ not / ) and enter the text and discuss one section at a time, until an accurate article is agreed upon. Protection is not forever. It only lasts until the editors can agree. If no agreement, then it may eventually go to Rfd. The only other option is mediation or arbitration. That will bring up all the facts, NPOV, NOR, and VANITY, plus I think voting will only incite never-ending edit wars on the talk page (given all the users who have been editing), and it may get speedy Rfd anyway. I also want to point out that I will make as little editing as possible. I will comment but I hope you can do the rewrites. Good luck. Peacekpr 16:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Response from Skinny McGee

In the interest of assuming good faith and all that, I will address your comments. However, I would first like to point out that I have a strong suspicion, although the checkuser request was inconclusive, that you and GuardianZ are one and the same. That was made even more apparent to me when I reviewed posts both of you made last night in which you both misspelled “warring”, a word I wouldn’t think people misspell too often. GuardianZ posted on Jaranda’s talk page and Peacekpr on Deathrocker’s talk page. In both cases, it was spelled "waring". Also, both persist in abbreviating “compact disk” with lower case letters (“cd”), when convention dictates it should be capitalized (“CD”). I guess I’m not surprised to see that Peacekpr seems to agree with GuardianZ on just about every point. But, moving on, here it goes:

1. Label information

• You contend Vargo produced 2 albums, "Born of the Night" and "Realm of Shadows", under his own publishing label, Monolith Graphics. I have the CDs right here. First off, all of the music on both those CDs is published by Linfaldia Records (a division of Entity Productions). The BMI registration for the two albums shows Linfaldia Records (Born of the Night and Realm of Shadows), as did the AMG review. There is no evidence to support that Monolith Graphics was the label for either release (Amazon.com is hardly encyclopedic). Both Entity Productions and Monolith Graphics are listed on the back of “Born of the Night.” On “Realm of Shadows” Monolith Graphics is not mentioned anywhere (except in reference to the artwork), only Entity Productions. As far as this “Producer” claim, Joseph Vargo is credited as Executive Producer of “Born of the Night,” not Producer. For "Realm of Shadows," it says “All Music Produced by Midnight Syndicate” and “Midnight Syndicate is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.” The only mention of Joseph Vargo on “Realm of Shadows” is for narration on one song and the artwork.

• You say “Press material cited by Skinny McGee indicates that Entity Productions took on the distribution "full-time" in 2001, which is after Vargo left the band (or the band decided to part ways). It seems to me that "full-time" means that someone (Vargo) was also distributing and promoting before 2001.” Actually, that’s not what the article said at all. To repeat what I said a few weeks ago, Oroboros 1 (proven sockpuppet of GuardianZ) was quoting the article out of order and thus changing the meaning to suit her own purpose. After discussing how the success of Born of the Night was overwhelming, the article goes on immediately to say, "Nevertheless, its creators couldn't convince record labels or distributors of this fresh genres economic potential.... Goszka and Douglas decided to build their own distribution network." Then it talks about how Douglas made cold calls across the country and then it states "It was a part-time venture for both men." The article goes on to say “Douglas went full-time in 2001”. It does not say he went full time on distribution, but full time period. That is, Douglas was working some other job and running Midnight Syndicate at the same time, but then he quit the other job to focus fully on Midnight Syndicate.

• You say “web archives establish that Monolith Graphics published and promoted the cds on their website.” What does this prove? They were selling the CDs just like any else who carried them, so of course they were on their website.

• Regarding the albums being the official soundtracks for Halloween Horror Nights, that is in the article right now. I was mistaken in removing it when I did and it’s been back in for some time.

2. The time period during which the former and current members meet. Just because you can show Douglas and Vargo met late in 1997 doesn’t mean they immediately got together. I would guess these things take some time. And anyway, the article as it reads now clearly indicates Douglas and Vargo teamed up first, and then Goszka joined, so I’m not sure what the problem is there. As far as how long it takes to record and release a CD, Joseph Vargo could tell you himself that they can come together very quickly. His band, Nox Arcana, has released four CDs in the last two years in addition to collaborating with someone else on another full CD. Pretty quick. And certainly, with regard to writing and recording music, it’s more important to have both members of the band on board than it is to have an Executive Producer.

3. Vargo's influence on band's change of focus Just because Vargo was there when Midnight Syndicate streamlined their focus, it doesn’t mean that he’s solely responsible as GuardianZ would have us believe. Anyone who has taken an Elementary Logic class knows that’s a logical fallacy. Douglas has said in several interviews (including some of those listed in the article) that he was always fascinated with horror, so it’s not hard to believe he would want to explore that in his music. And the first, self-titled, release included a number of darker tracks. Goszka says he’s an avid ghost hunter, so I’m sure he has some inclination in that direction as well. Anyway, Douglas and Goszka wrote all the music for “Born of the Night” and “Realm of Shadows,” so I would think they share some of the credit for the sound of the album. Cine-fusion, as described in the article, refers to ‘soundtracks to movies that don’t exist’. For someone as interested in horror as Douglas appears to be, it’s not hard to imagine that he would apply the cine-fusion concept to the horror genre.

Finally, GuardianZ persisted in citing a website that was created by Joseph Vargo and someone named Christine Filipak solely to defame Edward Douglas and Midnight Syndicate, as well as numerous interviews with Vargo in which he again defames Douglas. They have no place here.

As the article stands now, Joseph Vargo is credited with more than can be proven (Creative Director? That’s not on these two CDs). The bottom line is that people can read the liner notes of these two discontinued CDs and make up their own mind, if they even care. I care because, as a supporter of Midnight Syndicate, I’m not going to sit idly by while someone I suspect has ulterior motives adds misleading and defamatory information to this site. - Skinny McGee 22:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Response from GuardianZ

You are so full of it, SkinnyMcGee (proven sockpuppet of Defender99 and two other sleeper agents). You twist things around to suit you and you know it. Yours were CONFIRMED as well. My name is being re-checked. I am not Oroboros, and he was permamently blocked. The 2nd check that included me as well as Peacekr was found to be inconclusive. I asked for another to really check it out. I am sure to be able to clear myself of the charges.

Label: Are you saying that Vargo's company did NOT finance and promote the albums? (the job of a label). I see much evidence that they did. There is no evidence that Linfaldia actually did anything. And Entity did nothing until well after the albums were produced. What about all those posters and flyers and advertising done by Monolith Graphics? A STORE or distributor does not do all that for the products they sell. THAT is the job of the label. All that is listed on the cd is Entity and Monolith as copyrights. Monolith did artwork in addition, so of course they are credited to the art, in addition to the work Vargo did on the actual recording. And, according to Vargo, Monolith allowed Edward Douglas to list his fledgling companies, IN NAME ONLY, even though they didn't actually finance or produce the album. What I think is that Vargo did the work and Douglas took all the credit.

Why is Amazon not encyclopedic? If Amazon is not encyclopedic, then AMG and BMI are not encyclopedic. According to the Legion site, Douglas didn't list Vargo with BMI even though Vargo trusted him to do it, and they are fighting over that now. I think that is an issue between them, but if it was not properly credited, then it brings up the same arguement. Also, why are the albums out of print on the band's website?

Also, if Vargo did not produce the album as you say, why is he on the copyright form? I have never heard of an album copyright being afforded to a cover artist and guest vocalist. He is also credited with the concept story, liner notes, ect. Is that something that you are saying he did not do?

Who MS is (now) VS. then. You state that MS "is" Goszka and Douglas. That is true of NOW. But the photo from the Born of the Night album shows all three people (Douglas,Goszka,Vargo). It states "produced by Midnight Syndicate" and the photo shows who the line up for MS was at that time, above their names. So, when you say he did not produce the album, what you're saying is that he did not finance, direct the recordings, write arrangements, or any of the typical things that a music producer does. Do you believe that? I don't. I think that because he invested money into the project he got the executive status, but as a member of the group recording the album he is also afforded the same status as the other members shown in the photo in the cd booklet. Therefor, he not only produced the music with Edward and Gavin but he paid for the production and promoted it as well. Edwrad Douglas is just pissed that he went off and started another band, and so he's trying to discredit Vargo in the sneakiest way possible. At least Vargo is upfront about everything. Douglas is totally like "Read between the lines".

Do you refute the earlier interviews, one in print, one in the radio interview that stated: Goszka: "Joseph's focus and sense of vision were invaluable. I don't know what the cds would have looked like or sounded like without his direction." And, (well, it's hard to transcribe the radio interview), but a few phrases were stated by Douglas that indicate he didn't quite know what to say when asked about the cd concept, and turned that over to Joseph, but then cuts him off again. Later, when specifically asked by the radio DJ how one goes about producing an album like this, the question is directed to Joseph. It would seem that he had a larger role than what you are saying.

Regarding the albums being the official soundtracks for Halloween Horror Nights, that is NOT in the article right now. You removed it. Correction: It is in there but you added "as well as the other cds," but the later cds were never the "official" soundtracks. HHN may have used songs from the later cds, but only Born of the Night and Realm of Shadows were called "official soundtracks" of HHN.

As to the website you keep calling "defamatory" (just like the other's editing here who I suspect are also your sockpuppets). I agree that it is not flattering, but it shows a great deal of evidence. It indicates to me that Vargo felt he had to defend his work against someone claiming it as their own, so much so that he felt it neccessary to publish everything he did, since the other members were either not crediting him or were saying that they did all his work. I don't think that it is defamatory... to be defamatory it must be false. Is anything there false? No, I don't think so. Like they said, it's the ugly truth.

Also, I only used that site to reference stuff that you were denying when I posted it. I did not actually list it in the refs. Oroboros did that, and again, I am not he. I removed the link butl letf the facts there. You pushed the issue by removing and altering the facts.

PS. City/State on the music block should read "Chardon, Ohio", not "Cleveland, Ohio" (Vargo's company is in Cleveland, but MS is in Chardon). I never even thought of that before, but hmmm, isn't it funny how the band said they got their start in Cleveland.

Here's my rewrites of what the section should say using text from several other versions and a bit of new writing:

In October of 1997, Douglas teamed up with gothic fantasy artist Joseph Vargo, who suggested to Edward they create a Halloween cd together. In early 1998, Edward brought in composer Gavin Goszka, formerly a solo-artist in a project called Lore, to join himself and Vargo in the new project. The band decided to focus exclusively on a darker sound aimed at haunted houses and horror fans. Born of the Night was released in September 1998, just in time for the Halloween season. Edward and Gavin wrote and performed the music on the album, while Vargo helped write the musical arrangements, wrote and performed the lyrics, and created the cover art. As executive producer, he financed, published and promoted the album through his company, Monolith Graphics. It was Midnight Syndicate's first critically acclaimed gothic/horror soundtrack and proved to be an instant success, establishing Midnight Syndicate’s trademark sound and providing the eventual path that several of their later gothic-horror albums would take.

In March 2000, Realm of Shadows followed suit with the same dark instrumental sound and another gothic setting. Douglas and Goszka wrote all of the music for this album while Vargo wrote and performed the opening narration and theme story. Both albums were official soundtracks for Universal Studios' Halloween Horror Nights, and used in several other major theme parks during Halloween, such as Busch Gardens, Cedar Point and Thorpe Park's Fright Nights event. The heavy metal band King Diamond featured tracks from Born of the Night as opening music for their 2000 US tour. Afterwards, the band announced that Vargo would be working on other projects, while Douglas and Goszka continue to write music as Midnight Syndicate.

... Over the course of time Midnight Syndicate has become a standard with Halloween and haunted attraction industries. Edward Douglas' company Entity Productions, which began distributing the CDs on a full-time basis in 2001, now services retailers worldwide, and reports that it is one of the largest distributors of Halloween-themed music. In addition to having the music playing in many major theme parks during Halloween, it has also appeared in mainstream television programs like....

As I was rewriting the above paragraphs, I had some time to cool off. I know my other above statements sound somewhat heated but that's where I was an hour ago, so I'll leave it. BUT I would like to agree on something. As you can see, I took some of your stuff and worked it into my stuff. I think Creative Director really applies to art/writing, and since it already says that Vargo did the art I removed the title. (remember my time off, I have more ref materials now, but I'll give you that one). I left Executive Producer and defined the work so there is no misunderstanding about that. I added the Entity stuff where it was mentioned again along with how all the cds are played in theme parks. It is more appropriate later because it applies to all of the above and NOT just to the Born of the Night album, and especially not ONLY to that album, seeing as how Monolith published that production and then Vargo directed Realm of Shadows "to a lesser degree" as stated by Douglas. Skinny, would you agree that's a fair assessment? I think so. Can we put aside our differences and agree on this part? I hope so. GuardianZ 12:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

PS. I had to archive this page, and I'm pretty sure I did it right. if not I'm sorry. I could only post half of my reply, though. just ended mid-sentence, and would have not made sense. GuardianZ 13:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Skinny, I meant to ask you: When you wrote that the one album was a "huge" success on the MP3 chart, what exactly are the numbers, dates, and where can I check out that reference online. I'm just curious what constitutes "huge." Like 1000,000 hits or something? Also, after listening once more to the radio interview, the DJ addresses Vargo as the "creative director". I'll still not put up a fight about it, if you really hate it being referenced, but I just thought I'd mention to you that it is recorded history. What I mean is, I was referencing many other things than just the cd booklets. Hope to read your response soon. GuardianZ 16:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply from Skinny McGee

I’m just going to ignore the first half of what you wrote as it is amazingly inflammatory and utterly ridiculous, and go right to the rewrite. I agree that it is a nice start to a compromise version, but I believe you’re still off on some of your facts. Also, you continue to repeatedly reference the defamatory site created by Vargo. I wouldn’t believe one word on that site. If you really want to be objective, you would acknowledge it has no place here. How you could possibly think an entire website devoted to what an awful person Vargo thinks Douglas is could serve as any sort of valid reference or be at all encyclopedic is beyond me. As far as this whole Cleveland, Ohio, thing, I think you’re just being difficult. Cleveland is a major U.S. city, Chardon is not. Since Chardon is a suburb of Cleveland, it makes sense to say “Cleveland” so people who are not familiar with Chardon have some idea of where the band is based. However, if you would like to change it, I have absolutely no problem with that. Perhaps we could say…

Midnight Syndicate is a musical group that has been working mainly in the genre of gothic horror music since 1998. A 1997 self-titled release covered multiple mainstream genres. The band is based out of Chardon, Ohio, a suburb of Cleveland. Their music is commonly used to provide atmosphere during the Halloween season, in Haunted attractions and in the Role-playing game industry.

I do think we should leave Cleveland in the artist block, though, because as I said before, people don’t know where Chardon is.

You seem to be hung up on publishing. The publisher as stated on the CDs (designed by Monolith Graphics) is Linfaldia Records, a division of Midnight Syndicate’s parent company, Entity Productions, Inc. You continue to contend that Vargo wrote the musical arrangements. There is no proof of that. On “Born of the Night” it says “music written and performed by Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.” On “Realm of Shadows” it says “all music written and produced by Midnight Syndicate.” It follows with “Midnight Syndicate is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.” Just because Vargo says something six years later on his defamatory website doesn’t make it so.

The only credits that should matter are those that appear on the CDs because obviously those were agreed upon by the two parties at the time of printing.

Here is my edit of your version …

In 1998, Edward Douglas teamed up with gothic fantasy artist Joseph Vargo, to create an exclusively gothic/horror-themed Midnight Syndicate disc called Born of the Night. Douglas later brought in composer Gavin Goszka, formerly a solo-artist in a project called Lore. The goal of the disc was to focus on a dark sound aimed at fans of gothic music, the horror genre, and haunted attractions. Born of the Night was released in September 1998, just in time for the Halloween season. Douglas and Goszka wrote and performed all of the music on the album, while Vargo served as Executive Producer, wrote and performed voiceovers, and designed the cover art. The release was a cooperative effort between Douglas’ Entity Productions and Vargo’s Monolith Graphics. The disc was a success and helped establish Midnight Syndicate’s trademark sound.

In March 2000, Realm of Shadows followed suit with the same dark instrumental sound in a different gothic setting. Douglas and Goszka again wrote and produced all of the music for the album, while Vargo contributed an opening narration and artwork. As with future Midnight Syndicate releases, both albums served as official soundtracks for Universal Studios' Halloween Horror Nights, and were used in several other major theme parks during Halloween, such as Busch Gardens, Cedar Point and Thorpe Park's Fright Nights event. The heavy metal band King Diamond featured tracks from Born of the Night as opening music for their 2001 US tour. Midnight Syndicate and Joseph Vargo parted ways after Realm of Shadows.

... Over the course of time Midnight Syndicate has become the standard in the Halloween and haunted attraction industries. Edward Douglas' company, Entity Productions, Inc., and it’s partners distribute Midnight Syndicate’s music to thousands of retailers worldwide, and reports that they are one of the largest distributors of Halloween-themed music. In addition to being featured in independent haunted attractions and major theme parks during Halloween, it has also appeared in mainstream television programs like....

I hope that we can agree on something soon. I’m getting tired of rehashing the same things over and over again. - Skinny McGee 02:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply2 from GuardianZ

When you say "cooperative" effort, what do you mean by that. I gather that Vargo produced Born of the Night and Entity later distributed. Also, I think Vargo deserves a little more "weight" in the crediting dept for concept and direction (especially given that Douglas is taking credit for the concept lately, and that Vargo had other Born of the night credits beforehand, plus the fact that all the songs are named for his paintings). I do believe his site, moreso now than ever, and we will leave it at that, so give the guy the credit he's due. It doesn't belittle the band at all, or it wouldn't if the band wasn't trying to take that credit away. The definition of a music producer is what Vargo did. I think he called it creative direction, but it amounts to the same thing: overseeing the entire production, giving direction to the music, not just paying for it. Also, since he did pay for the initial runs, he published it as well. Entity distributed, but did not produce or publish. And, the part about "first critically acclaimed and establishing MS trademark sound," that was in several interviews and in Douglas' words and was here before. Let's not start a new dispute over that. Here's what I think it should read...

In 1998, Edward Douglas teamed up with gothic fantasy artist Joseph Vargo to create an exclusively gothic/horror-themed album called Born of the Night, based on Vargo's gothic artwork and story concepts. Composer Gavin Goszka, formerly a solo-artist in a project called Lore, also joined Douglas and Vargo in creating a darker sound aimed at fans of gothic music, the horror genre, and haunted attractions. Douglas and Goszka wrote and performed music on the album, while Vargo served as executive producer and creative director, wrote and performed the vocals and narrations, and designed the cover art and packaging. The release was published by Vargo's Monolith Graphics and distributed through Douglas' Entity Productions. The album was Midnight Syndicate's first critically acclaimed gothic/horror soundtrack and proved to be an instant success, establishing Midnight Syndicate's trademark sound."

For Realm of Shadows, when you state that D and G "again produced" all the music and reduce Vargo to "contributing" a narration, that is not balancing the weight, and since he also payed for part of the production and directed it "to a lesser degree" (per Douglas) it is not correct to make that statement. Also, like I said, the latter part already mentions the later albums being used in haunted houses, it is disruptive, petty and untrue to mention it beforehand. The later albums were not "official" and it was a pretty big deal back then, and was part of the success. Give the albums the credit they are due and stop belittling it by dragging in other stuff. I also note how you keep moving Douglas' name to the front of sentences. It gets redundant and is petty. Finally, in the parting way sentence, you do the same. It was "announced" exactly that way, so I think it is the best way to state it without saying one or the other left. There's no shame in a guy doing "other projects" and no one will see it that way. Here...

In March 2000, Realm of Shadows followed suit with the same dark instrumental sound in a different gothic setting. Douglas and Goszka again wrote and performed all of the music for the album, while Vargo wrote and performed the opening narration and theme story and created the artwork. Both albums served as official soundtracks for Universal Studios' Halloween Horror Nights, and were used in several other major theme parks during Halloween, such as Busch Gardens, Cedar Point and Thorpe Park's Fright Nights event. The heavy metal band King Diamond featured tracks from Born of the Night as opening music for their 2001 US tour. Afterwards, the band announced that Vargo would be working on other projects, while Douglas and Goszka continue to write music as Midnight Syndicate.

Thanks. Also, what was the "huge" success on MP3. I still want to know. GuardianZ 10:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Response from Skinny McGee

I will reiterate that I believe we should use the credits as they appeared in the CD booklet because they are what all parties agreed to at the time. I give Vargo full credit following that guideline.

The publisher is not determined by who pays to press the CDs. That indicates who the Executive Producer is – and we already know that was Vargo. "Born of the Night" appears to be a cooperative effort between Monolith Graphics and Entity Productions/Linfaldia Records as both logos are on the CD, as you continue to point out.

Other than from Vargo’s defamatory site or his own publication, I’m wondering if there is proof of the following:

• Vargo paid for part of the production of “Realm of Shadows”
• Vargo directed “Realm of Shadows” to a lesser degree
• Both “Born of the Night” and “Realm of Shadows” were “official soundtracks” for Universal Studios’ Halloween Horror Nights, but the future albums weren’t.
• The band announcing that Vargo would be working on other projects after “Realm of Shadows”, while Douglas and Goszka would continue as Midnight Syndicate. It clearly states in the CD booklet, “Midnight Syndicate is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.“ Vargo was not a member of the band, so why would they announce that he was leaving something he wasn’t even a part of? (Why can’t we just say parted ways? There’s no implication in either direction)

Don’t get your point about haunted houses – don’t see anything redundant.

I didn’t notice I was moving Douglas’ name to the beginning of sentences, if I even was, but he was there before Vargo and after Vargo and he’s certainly the driving force behind the band’s success.

Finally, regarding Midnight Syndicate's success on MP3.com.... In the All Music Guide, Mario Mesquita Borges wrote the Midnight Syndicate biography. He wrote that “Gates of Delirium” was a “huge success on MP3.com, where it held six spots in their Top 20 positions during Halloween.” - Skinny McGee 04:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply3 from GuardianZ / Skinny McGee too

Everything I wrote has already been cited. I will not argue the obvious over and over again. Vargo was the publisher and the producer in this case. Vargo was the driving force behind the band's initial success, and then perhaps Douglas, who it is said has a head for business, took the idea and ran with it. Stop avoiding the issues by telling me to cite the material AGAIN. I have already cited more than you. Go look it up for yourself.

And, yes I already agreed with you, it was a cooperative effort for the distribution... Monolith paid for production of first several runs and Entity co-distributed the cds with Monolith. Thereafter, Entity was working from royalties garnered from sales of the cds. According to Monolith a fund was set up for future re-orders, and Edward was put in charge of taking orders and dispensing the royalties, but it was after the first three production runs had been set up and paid for by Vargo. Monolith can accually prove what they say with various receipts and production records. I'm afraid that no matter what you think of the site, it trumps a press release. So, unless you ca show me differently, I'll accept the records I can verify.

I will have to take whatever was written about MS (and by MS these days) with a grain of salt. It appears that much of the Press is simply a reprint of the band's own press releases, and unfortunately, that is unverifiable. In other words, just because they get someone to print it does not make it true. If the MP3 "huge" claim was listed on a chart someplace, I could accept it without question. I think the same goes for the statement "Unable to gain the support of a major record label or distributor initially...". That is proven incorrect, because initially the band was supported solely by Vargo/Monolith Graphics, and Edward never made that statement during their time working together. It was only this past year that Edward started that tactic. It's not appreciated by those who know the facts.

So, barring any supporting evidence from you, I'll stick to my last version Talk:Midnight_Syndicate#Reply2_from_GuardianZ. It is as far as I am willing to stretch the truth to suit your needs. Remove the stuff about unable to garner label suppport, and we are good. Stop being petty, and we can close this discussion to correct this part of article. GuardianZ 06:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I disagree with your "final reply" and your "final version". Your sources are impartial and unverifiable, we cannot use them. Dionyseus 07:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"We"? Who is we? Are you speaking for Skinny. I thought so. Considering that Dionyseus has offered ZERO references, I don't think you have room to talk. Offer me some reference other than what Douglas says. Show me something official. I'll be happy to consider it. GuardianZ 09:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"We" as in Misplaced Pages. I recommend you tone done your attitude, User:GuardianZ. Dionyseus 16:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I see you've been warned to stop harassing me once. Do I need to ask again. You were never editing here and this discussion does not concern you. I think it's your uncompromising and attack and revert-prone attitude that you should watch. Let Skinny and I work this out. I have shown my refs, so let me be. GuardianZ 21:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I was never warned to stop harassing you, nor did I ever harass you, please stop stating falsehoods. Dionyseus 02:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll say again that I believe we should use the credits as they appeared in the CD booklet because they are what all parties agreed to at the time. I give Vargo full credit following that guideline. Also, I've looked through the history here and I cannot find where you've cited the statements I am questioning. You'll have to remind me. To reiterate:

Other than from Vargo’s defamatory site or his own publication, I’m wondering if there is proof of the following:

• Vargo paid for part of the production of “Realm of Shadows”
• Vargo directed “Realm of Shadows” to a lesser degree
• Both “Born of the Night” and “Realm of Shadows” were “official soundtracks” for Universal Studios’ Halloween Horror Nights, but the future albums weren’t.
• The band announcing that Vargo would be working on other projects after “Realm of Shadows”, while Douglas and Goszka would continue as Midnight Syndicate. It clearly states in the CD booklet, “Midnight Syndicate is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.“ Vargo was not a member of the band, so why would they announce that he was leaving something he wasn’t even a part of? (Why can’t we just say parted ways? There’s no implication in either direction)

Thanks. - Skinny McGee 15:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Refs (again): OK. So now that you can't prove anything, you only want to cite the cd credits. Fine. Because you have construed the CD credits to fit your own agenda, the referencing of this much earlier material (and it is from other sources, not Vargo) really is important in uncovering the facts and seeing how the info has been changed in more recent interviews in which Edward takes credit from Joseph for this early direction.

"We pretty much wrote separately and then combined it. Joe has a good ear for music and helped us when we'd start to get off the track." (Interview with Edward Douglas, Dec. 1998, Ohio Online Magazine)

"The setting for Born of the Night, was thought up by Joseph Vargo." and "Joseph Vargo was more than just the artist for the first two discs. He was integrally involved with the production of Born of the Night from its inception to its completion... That role carried over to a lesser degree with Realm of Shadows as well." (Interview with Edward Douglas, Paragon Magazine, 2003).

Combine that with what Edward states in the 1998 radio interview, and the fact that the DJ conducting the interview addresses Joseph, not Edward, when she asks how to produce a cd, and what you have is a grain of truth among all the anti-hype that Edward started promoting after 2003.

Joseph is listed as Creative Director on the band's early press release material, and it is stated in the radio interview right before the DJ asks Vargo about how one produces something like this. Since the interview includes ALL the members, and Edward Douglas sounds just like he does in the band's latest podcast, it is totally verifiable. The radio station is still in operation as well.

Future albums were never advertised as Official Soundtracks. The earlier one's were. Simple.

You have not shown me anything that backs up the "huge" MP3 statement. Number of downloads, that kind of thing. I can't be sure if the biographer was simply given that info from the band or if they got it from the MP3 site. I searched MP3 and could not find anything.

Now, let's stop already and agree that Joseph produced and published and that Monolith and Entity co-distributed. The rest is already established, so this seems to be your only complaint. I know you want all the credit for Edward but he is just going to have to learn to be nice and share. GuardianZ 16:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Adding.. As to parting. I don't know why the band does what it does. But obviously, Vargo was part of Realm of Shadows in more ways than just a vocal artist, and I guess the band felt it needed to make the split clear to the fans and give an explanation. Too bad. GuardianZ 16:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, all that writing and I don’t think you answered any of my questions. Let’s see …

Other than from Vargo’s defamatory site or his own publication, I’m wondering if there is proof of the following:

• Vargo paid for part of the production of “Realm of Shadows”

– You don’t address this at all in your response.

• Vargo directed “Realm of Shadows” to a lesser degree

– You quote Douglas as stating Vargo was involved to a lesser degree. He does not say that Vargo directed it to any degree.

• Both “Born of the Night” and “Realm of Shadows” were “official soundtracks” for Universal Studios’ Halloween Horror Nights, but the future albums weren’t.

– Advertised where? By whom? You present no proof.

• The band announcing that Vargo would be working on other projects after “Realm of Shadows”, while Douglas and Goszka would continue as Midnight Syndicate. It clearly states in the CD booklet, “Midnight Syndicate is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka.“ Vargo was not a member of the band, so why would they announce that he was leaving something he wasn’t even a part of? (Why can’t we just say parted ways? There’s no implication in either direction)

– No proof presented here either. Where is the announcement?

Also, how could I possibly “construe to fit my own agenda” something as black and white as CD credits? They say what they say. I believe we should use the credits as they appeared in the CD booklet because they are what all parties agreed to at the time. I give Vargo full credit following that guideline. How people are credited for their work in the entertainment industry is huge and it’s taken very seriously. I’m quite sure that both parties agreed to the credits. Let’s not alter history six years later.

I think it is pretty obvious that it is you and Edward that are altering history. Six years ago, Edward seemed to have no problem at all crediting Vargo, but now that Vargo's music is becoming more popular, Edward changes his tune completely. GuardianZ 14:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact that you continue to attack Douglas, just as Vargo does on his defamatory site and in many, many interviews, makes it pretty clear who you are.

I am not attacking anyone and I never have. I have always treated each side with fair and neutral writing and have credited MS when it is true (the movies you removed; the offical soundtracks you removed; and in place you change the publisher credits). I have given you the opportunity to include your edits, even the many that are unverifiable and self-promotion, but I draw the line at you writing things that are proven false by older material. You are just showing your true colors by debating this to death. GuardianZ 14:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Finally, I will never agree that Vargo produced and published either release because you don’t have one shred of evidence to back that up. In fact, the evidence contradicts your claims. As mentioned before, the publisher is listed as Linfaldia Records, both on the CD booklets and with BMI. And, even acknowledging Vargo paid for the first few pressings of “Born of the Night”, that makes him Executive Producer (as credited), not publisher. - Skinny McGee 02:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The evidence does not contradict my writing. It absolutely supports it. Stop stating falsehoods. GuardianZ 14:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Other than the Legion site? Well, that is proof. It's proof of publishing, proof of copyright, proof of promotion, and finally it is proof that what Douglas has been saying in print is false. Can you prove that anything on that site is incorrect? I don't think so. MS has offered nothing but false press releases. You have shown no proof that the other cds were official soundtracks. You have not proven that Linfaldia was the publisher. You have not proven that Monolith is not the publisher. (Monolith is currently the label for the so-called "out of print" cd.) Both company names are on the cd. However, you keep asking for proof of the quotes and I gave them to you, and you still question it. Douglas said that Vargo directed the Born of the Night cd. He stated that Vargo helped with the music when he and Gavin "got off track." That was not something from the Legion site. That was Douglas' own words. And that shows that Vargo was directing the cd. Then in referring to Realm of Shadows he says that Vargo did the same to a lesser degree.

Also, you have not proved that Douglas sought other lables. You have not proven the MP3 claim. You have proven exactly nothing, except who you really are.

What is your problem? I wrote that Entity and Monolith co-distributed. I gave each their due credit. Is that the only hang-up you have? Do not think you will change the credits or the meaning of Executive Producer (that includes producing the music) just to suit your purpose—that being to diminish Vargo's concepts, his writing and the fact it was all based on his work. All of that is verifiable, and since the Legion site states to ask if I want any more info, I will do just that. I will ask for them to provide proof of the publishing and distribution. I'll ask MS for the same, then we'll see. GuardianZ 11:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Credits as listed in CD Booklets

I will reiterate that I believe we should use the credits as they appeared in the CD booklet because they are what all parties agreed to at the time (which is the most relevant for any purpose). The current version of the article gives Vargo FULL credit following that guideline. How people are credited for their work in the entertainment industry is NOT arbitrary and it’s taken very seriously.

The “Born of the Night” credits read:

All Music Written and Performed by Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka

Executive Producer Joseph Vargo

Music PRODUCED by MIDNIGHT SYNDICATE

It does NOT say “Music Produced by Joseph Vargo.”

On “Realm of Shadows” the credits are even more specific

Music PRODUCED by MIDNIGHT SYNDICATE

MIDNIGHT SYNDICATE is Edward Douglas and Gavin Goszka

Vargo isn’t even mentioned in the credits although it is clear he handled the packaging.

There is no debate as to the label for “Realm of Shadows.” There’s NO mention of Monolith Graphics (except in reference to the artwork).

The ONLY ambiguity, the only thing NOT spelled out in the credits is who was the label of “Born of the Night.” Why can’t we say “the release was a cooperative effort between Douglas’ Entity Productions and Vargo’s Monolith Graphics”? Why do you have to give all the credit to Monolith Graphics? Both of their logos are side by side on the back. Are you saying that was by accident? Not likely.

The fact is, there is nothing wrong with the current version of this article. There is nothing inaccurate about it. - Skinny McGee 03:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)