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Archives
May 2006 June 2006 July 2006 August 2006 September 2006 Mediation archives October-November 2006

Re starting over - a proposal for the interim

Crum has tried to argue that this version is in some way stable. His own edit block refutes that fiction as do all edit wars in the past. He likes this version because of his undeclared yet self-revealed bias. He has also tried to present this version as endorsed by WP. It has been explained to him many times that he is incorrect on this point. He has forgotten that he agreed to some usages of certain citations (so did Arc and all his other handles) as I documented just above. He has tried to impose a 'dont edit' rule on this version (re his bais) during mediation - even though the mediator has told him this is not agreed.

If we want not to have an edit war, in the interim, since this version is so full of OR, POV, violations of consensus decisions, and especially since we have all agreed to start over completely, I think it is the only workable way and the fairest, to reduce the entry to a mere placeholder while we discuss what we do agree on, ie a snippet in the meantime as part of 'Starting Over'. I will anticipate non-agreement with this proposal obviously re POV and biases involved. But in the spirit and logic of starting over, not to mention all of our time and energy, I strongly suggest you all agree to this. Responses please ASAP?

OK, I have done this. Just plain information. Can we agree to this in the meantime? I also see this as a test of genuine good faith.Richardmalter 08:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, Richard, I would ask that you address the following question, posed above:

If I understand you correctly, then, you are saying that when others disagree with you in discussion you are unwilling to accept that, and will rely upon your own interpretation and understanding to the exclusion of others, and act upon it by editing the entry accordingly. Is that understanding on my part correct? TheStainlessSteelRat 05:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, no, as ususal you choose to interpret me into some kind of hyperbole. You have also never apologized in a simple straightforward manner for misrepresentations. Re the example I noted, the other editor also picked it out straightaway as OR. "A happened, then B happened, and therefore such and such is" OR. If you cannot see this, then I suggest you ask you reread carefully WP policies and ask others until your understanding is clear.

Secondly, although I am by no means certain as to whether this particular form of shortened entry is acceptable – there had been agreement that a minimal entry might be the best way to proceed, but there had been no discussion or sandboxing as to the form of such a hypothetical minimal entry – let alone consensus – I have amended your unilateratally vastly shortened entry to include the New Zealand Tribunal. You will note that in two separate AfD discussions doubts as to the validity of Omura's techniques in general and the findings of the New Zealand Tribunal in particular were found to be the sole bases of notability for Omura and/or BDORT sufficient to justify the existence of an entry for Omura on Misplaced Pages. It is, therefore, utterly unacceptable to alter the entry to any shortened form which simply excludes the sole agreed-upon basis for the entry's existence.

I would suggest, then, that we simply await the availability of others, and their thoughts, as you had previously agreed on numerous occasions, rather than unilaterally radically altering the entry to any one person's particular preferred form, however well and sincerely intended.TheStainlessSteelRat 17:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

No, Arc, your bias is that you originally wanted to tell the world that the BDORT is pseudoscience. In some way you want very much to be able to say this in some way. That is the long and short of all of it. Your AfD discussion is selective and what you write is not the whole story at all. "in the only credible bla bla" is just you wanting to scream out about pseudoscience, and is not on. Can you not in good faith actually agree to START OVER!!Richardmalter 19:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

If you remember when I quized Xolov about his summing up, he replied that what he had written was a "worst case scenario" for notability, NOT that he was given such a decision himself. Crum also noted that So I would say that if someone publicizes a symposium on a mainstream academic institution's official Web site, that would make BDORT, a featured sub-topic of the symposium (note the illustration), and most likely Omura, notable. You are selctively interpreting and quoting from the AfD discussions. Again I ask you, can you agree to not have your desire and genuine belief to label the BDORT pseudoscience spoken to the world? Can we just have an information snippet to save edit warring and everyone's time and energy??! Please?Richardmalter 19:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I take it, then, that, in response to my (above):

'If I understand you correctly, then, you are saying that when others disagree with you in discussion you are unwilling to accept that, and will rely upon your own interpretation and understanding to the exclusion of others, and act upon it by editing the entry accordingly. Is that understanding on my part correct? TheStainlessSteelRat 05:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Your answer is 'Yes.' Correct? TheStainlessSteelRat 19:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I will have to take it, then, regretfully, that your answer is indeed, 'Yes.' I've just reverted (#1 of this cycle) in response to your revert. I'm attempting, here, Richard, to accomodate your preference for the drastically shortened entry, at least pending the return of other editors. I cannot accept, however, as rational interpretation of the AfD discussion anything other than my statement above: That Omura/BDORT were found notable, in both discussions, only on the basis of their being dubious/pseudoscience/quackery, and, more pertinent here, that the NZ Tribunal which you seem to insist on 'disappearing' is by far the most reliable, reputable source on this matter. I am aware of your stated differences with that characterization of the NZ Tribunal. You have advanced, however, absolutely no reliable, verifiable evidence per Misplaced Pages criteria to contest the Tribunal, only your insistence that your interpretation is correct. That, regretfully, simply will not suffice. TheStainlessSteelRat 20:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

PS: I would also ask that you desist from personal attacks on the motives of others. It is a common observation that ad hominem attacks strongly suggest a lack of convincing argument or evidence for one's position, and such attacks, I'm afraid, likely weaken your case in the eyes of most neutral parties. Please, if you have the arguments, and the evidence, simply present them and let them speak for themselves. TheStainlessSteelRat 20:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, you are avoiding the questions put to you as usual. I will revert after you are asleep tonight.Richardmalter 23:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I deeply regret, then, Richard, your acknowledgement that you insist on having your own way rather than work with the community. TheStainlessSteelRat 00:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, re personal attacks, when you get your own house in order re this I will take you seriously, not before. Re your own way - yes applies to you exactly; in addition to not answering questions when you dont like their answers.

Just for the record, as Crum has said in the past, "everything needs to be citated".

In the only known credible independent evaluation and judgement of the BDORT or of any other of Omura’s variant and derivative treatments and techniques by a mainstream scientific or medical body,

does not have any citation. It is OR through and through and is not acceptable. If you cannot find citations for these words, they are out. In the only known credible is pure WP:OR/POV.

the Medical Practitioners Disciplinary Tribunal of New Zealand heard extensive expert testimony as to claims of scientific validity and efficacy of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test

is not correct, you know that they said earlier on that Gorringe's methods did not resemble Omura's, in those words. You are mis and selectively quoting re your POV. If you cannot find an exact quotation for heard extensive expert testimony as to claims of scientific validity and efficacy of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test then it is not allowable. To anticipate you and Crum, Crum has the answer to you both: "everything has to be citated".

etc.

If you want to cooperate in WP terms, and can let go of your desire to call things pseudoscience - which you have been told here repeatedly by me and others including Admins that unless you have a very good direct citation for you cannot,let me know. Richardmalter 11:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, AKA, TSSR AKA whiffle, you have also broken your agreement documented as did Crum regarding:

which has been characterized as pseudoscience,

You were part of a voluntary mediated consensus decision and you agreed as part of that consensus that this was not acceptable and should not be used. YOU ARE ASKED TO BE RESPECTFUL TO EVERYONE AND KEEP TO AGREEMENTS MADE. YOU SHOW HUGE DISRESPECT NOT TO DO THIS. Richardmalter 11:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for going along with that. If you are immovable at this stage even in the Starting Over for having the Tribunial info, then I will insist on the line from the report I just added. Regarding all the other OR/POV language, I will not agree to it of course. I have explained to Crum innumerable times re the 'scientific' etc - also that they were not experts in the right field - please see archives - which make the whole thing (to the regret of the anti-BDORT lobby) not much use (to WP) at all. Richardmalter 21:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Antonrojo: I would note that I find your edit work on the entry to be, in my judgement, quite helpful, and quite promising.

Therefore, I regret the following, though I'd ask that, if you're willing, you continue to contribute to the process, as I, for one, would very much appreciate it, as, I'm sure, would others.

Richard: I regret that I find your shortened form of the entry unacceptable per my understanding of Misplaced Pages criteria, and would, respectfully, ask, therefore, that, as a demonstration of faith in the community and its processes as per extant consensus, you revert to the version of the entry as it existed prior to its most recent unlocking, prior to your radical surgery, so that we may return to the process of discussion and consensus building, as most recently so generously and patiently moderated by Che and further contributed to and overseen to varying degrees by other members of the Misplaced Pages community. TheStainlessSteelRat 02:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, please explain exactly and in detail why - then we can discuss - which I definetely will. You have not given me any indication of what you think is WP:not OK; whereas you please note that I have discussed why have improved (not deleted) your edits. Please bear in mind re your comments as Crum has said, "EVERYTHING has to be citated" Thank you.Richardmalter 02:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

If you prefer to maintain the entry in a radically altered form of your making – with minor but helpful contribution on Antonrojo's part as to neutral point of view with respect to presentation – which was previously controverted as to its particulars on numerous occasions and which found no support in consensus rather than simply restore the entry to that form which it took prior to your personal and radical reshaping I am content to note that fact for the present and await other opinions. TheStainlessSteelRat 03:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Antonrojo, hello, I have I think improved on your edits, as follows. Thanks for the info re better quoting of statements, reads much better. I put in the citation link - it is from the same source, just a different paragraph. Re: There are no known credible independent evaluations of the BDORT or of any other of Omura’s treatments and techniques by a mainstream scientific or medical body - well this has been hotly disputed for months, the way I see it is not actually contributing information to the article. It is contributing a POV and a bias (albeit in a subtle way prehaps). credible etc are all hotly disputed. For example no one in the Tribunial had the expertise at post doctorate level to be able to comment on the basis of the BDORT - which Omura et al explicitly document in many abstracts as an 'electromagnetic resonance phenomena'. ie they are not expert in the required field - electromagnetism - at all, etc. heard extensive testimony as to claims of scientific validity and efficacy of BDORT is not correct since they earlier on noticed the obvious fact that Gorringe was doing his own techniques, so they generically called them PMRT. I then took out since in the rewrite that is now covered. Richardmalter 06:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Richard, everyone on that panel was qualified to judge whether a technique had undergone proper scientific verification. It does not matter whether the technique is supposed to be based on the properties of electromagnetic resonance phenomena, quantum mechanics, cosmic rays, fish oil chemistry, psychology or whatever since knowing how it works is irrelevant to judging whether it works. Either its effectiveness has been assessed properly or it has not. In the judgement of the tribunal, the effectiveness of PMRT type techniques (including BDORT) have not been properly demonstrated in repeatable, well-designed, well-executed, peer-reviewed scientific research. --Spondoolicks 13:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You are correct, Spondoolicks: just as an electrician doesn't have to know electron field theory to assess a circuit board, a doctor does not have to be familiar with the methodology of a particular treatment to assess its results. - Che Nuevara 18:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The point is they did not actually assess the technique; they also did not comment on Omura et al's research and papers of the BDORT (not surprisningly because they recognized early on theat Gorringe was doing something different) - not even to dismiss them - ie they did not really comment on the BDORT at all. Further, they did not make any clinical evaluation; nothing they did can be described as 'scientific' - they did not even observe the BDORT in order to try to explain it (or refute it). They did not 'assess' the 'circuit board' because they did not even see a demonstration of the BDORT; so what you both write doesn't fit with what actually happened - need to be very clear about this. Giving an opinion is all they did. Actually, I agree with Spondoolicks who summed it up quite accurately: In the judgement of the tribunal, the effectiveness of PMRT type techniques (including BDORT) have not been properly demonstrated in repeatable, well-designed, well-executed, peer-reviewed scientific research is all you can actually say that the Tribunial commented. Shall we say this then in reference to this citation, this wording seems good. Next thing is I showed this entry snippet to a couple of people, and their unprompted reaction was that obviously including the Tribunial info and nothing more ot further about the BDORT obviously smacks of someone (or two or three) trying very hard to give their opinion about the BDORT with this entry. But if we have rough agreement on this citation, then can we go on to examining the next citation that needs our evaluation as editors (see Mediation page for this), thanks.Richardmalter 08:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Tribunal, this wording is, in my opinion, rather conservative, but since there seems to be some disagreement about just how identical the Tribunal considered Gorringe's method and Omura's methods, it may be the best possible compromise. It should be handled appropriately, however, in a way that indicates that yes, the Tribunal is qualified to talk about these sorts of things.

Re: bias, it's important to remember the undue weight segment of WP:NPOV. Citations intended to "balance" an article actually do more to unbalance it if they are present as carrying weight which they do not carry. Additionally, if the majority of qualified opinion come down against something, that should be reflected in the article. I was involved in a discussion about this over at Democratic Underground a while ago: if a useful source which carries real weight is found, then it should be used, but a not useful source should not be used just to "balance" the opposing opinion. - Che Nuevara 19:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Che, and others here, hello. I am putting the {{POV}} back on the entry as I see it (with the NZ Tribunial citation included) as still not neutral if no other (what I believe will turn out to be through discussion if they have not already) perfectly WP:OK citations completely relevant to this entry are not included. Che, I would welcome very much your continued mediation which I appreciate very much - what do you think, are you still willing to continue? To make myself clear, this snippet including the Tribunial citation is as I understand it a placeholder which has stopped the edit war temporarily which is great - but I dont think is the last word on what will happen here in the (near) future by any stretch. Thanks Richardmalter 05:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The NZ Tribunal citations currently aren't in the article. There's no material in the article that could possibly be disputed; it's in stub-land now. So let's work on disputing the material before it goes in; that way the tag is unnecessary. - Che Nuevara 06:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I'm sorry, I had understood from the reversions you had made to include the NZ Tribunial para that that was still in, in which case what I wrote made sense. If that has now gone by agreement in the meantime, then of course there is no POV dispute. Hope you can see why I moved as I did and the situation was confusing? And yes, lets work on the material prior, agree of course.Richardmalter 11:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted them back in after they were deleted without comment by an IP. They've been taken out again, so it would seem that some discussion on the topic is necessary. - Che Nuevara 17:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The anon IP removed the well-sourced NZT reference, and Richard removed a lot more well-sourced material. I suggest we continue to follow the mediation process prior to making changes in the article. Crum375 02:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Didn't we agree that we were starting over? Why was the article reverted to its previous full version? - Che Nuevara 05:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I have no recollection, nor can I find anywhere, an agreement to 'start over', let alone to delete massive amounts of well sourced and pertinent material. We did agree for someone neutral to build a new version in his sandbox, we are still waiting for that. We never agreed to just gut the article; leaving Omura without BDORT would violate the last AfD consensus, leaving BDORT without NZT would violate NPOV, etc. If I am wrong and we did agree to it somehow, please point me to that consensus. Thanks, Crum375 13:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

- Che Nuevara 20:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, would you mind giving me a diff? The section header you are linking to is a discussion thread we had about 'starting over'. The final concept there was for a new (to this article) editor to try to come up with a brand new version in his Sandbox that could possibly replace this one. I don't see (nor recall) any agreement we ever had to reduce the article to a POV stub, that does not conform to the consensus we had after the last AfD and that includes BDORT without the most relevant and reliable reference we have for it, the NZ Tribunal report. The stub without the NZT reference is simply misleading and represents no agreement or consensus whatsoever. Crum375 21:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It is clear that the previous versions did not conform to Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons, so I strongly support this starting over. I mean, at the end of each paragraph we had a sentence stating that none of Yoshiaki's works were proven by any official medical authority - while that may or may not be true, it is completely unnecessary to repeat these words so many times. Starting afresh is the best thing for any article with serious concerns. From here things can be built up again and individual facts can be properly referenced. Cowman109 01:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The so-called disclaimer statements were included near each new description of a new extraordinary claim, which has no scientifically or WP acceptable source. The inclusion of the disclaimer statements can be argued, and we have had some extensive discussions about them, but it does not mean that the entire article needs to be discarded. As far as starting from scratch, I am not totally against it, but the current stub version is totally POV - it includes only Omura's 'evidence' which is not WP-acceptable per WP:V, while it excludes the New Zealand Tribunal's document, which is the most reliable and verifiable source we have for BDORT. At this point, the article is simply an ad for a scientifically unproven procedure, which claims to diagnose and cure most diseases known to man, by the patient making an 'O' with his/her fingers. BTW, the previous version had undergone scrutiny by many people during the last AfD, and the consensus was to keep improving it, not to trash it and start from scratch. Crum375 01:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I chose that particular version because, if you read the entire section, you said "I am in general amenable to all ideas mentioned here" shortly after I said "It seems that no one objects to a complete rewrite of the article". - Che Nuevara 01:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If you read my statement above, I am not deadset against any reasonable idea, including a total rewrite if that's the best we can do. But to start with a POV version, that includes items that are not acceptable per WP policy, and does not include the NZT, which is the best source we have for this procedure, is simply wrong. Crum375 01:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindent) The version that I have reverted to contains no sources about the procedure, except to say that he invented it; that cannot possibly be POV. The information that the anonymous IP was adding was clearly POV and I have removed it. This is a bare-bones version: it says who Omura is, the foundations he founded, and that he invented BDORT. That is all verifiable and objective fact. It doesn't say much, but it doesn't say anything biased. It is not misrepresentative in any way; it's just lacking in thoroughness. If we start from this version, we can add things as we go. - Che Nuevara 01:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to the version just prior to your latest reversion. In your version, besides the fact that it's missing a lot of well sourced information that we previously had, it mentions 'BDORT' without mentioning the related New Zealand Tribunal's findings, that it is "irresponsible and unacceptable" to use it, and that the last person that used it was fined and stripped of his license. Leaving out this important and well sourced information is misleading by omission, hence POV. Crum375 01:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The current version links to alternative medicine. That contains a number of the criticisms, generally, which you wish to include here specifically. For a stub, that's plenty NPOV. - Che Nuevara 01:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The link to alternative medicine does not remove the onus to supply to the reader the most reliable and verifiable source that relates to the subject of BDORT. IMO it should be the primary focus of the article, as it is the best source. Crum375 01:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: My above comment was deleted by Richardmalter, I am hereby restoring it. Crum375 13:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I second Che's and Cowman's points. Crum, are you intent on another Edit War!! Your POV arguments find no consensus here. Many people are telling you the same thing - start over from a stub. Richardmalter 03:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Crum, by reverting the version you did, you are again breaking a mediated consensus decision that you were part of.Richardmalter 03:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Whatever is currently done with the article makes little difference. The issue is more of just not edit warring and discussing instead. If I find some time over the weekend I'll see if I can get a nice rewrite of the article going. It will probably not be as heavy on information on the bi-digital o-ring test as Misplaced Pages does not need an essay explaining how it is performed. Cowman109 04:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable, Cowman, give it a shot. Clearly the situation here is (surprise) once again at an impasse. I'll operate as seems more or less sensible pending your effort. What do you put the odds at? ;) GenghizRat 07:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Query As to Removal of My Comment

May I ask, RM, why you simply removed this without comment? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GenghizRat (talk • contribs) 04:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Apologies - pure techincal error editing the page on my part.Richardmalter 23:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Reality Bites?

At present the entry exists in stub form, with the sole basis of its having survived requests for deletion having been removed, in a form I judge utterly unsatisfactory per both rational thought and Misplaced Pages criteria. I therefore withdraw my provisional acceptance of the entry's shortened form, which was agreed to temporarily, pending Gzkn's sandboxed version (which never happened), as noted above, by The Stainless Steel Rat. In this context the form of the entry prior extant seems to me the most acceptable. GenghizRat 02:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: This, as per time stamp, was made earlier, but was removed by RM without comment, prior to his comments and Cowman's subsequent comments. GenghizRat 04:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Enough is enough

Okay everyone, enough is enough. You're taking away my options here. Richard, removing other people's comments is not appropriate. Crum and TSSR, every non-involved party who has come along has agreed that the version you keep reverting to is irreparable and needs to be rewritten. It should be obvious that not misrepresenting information is a much higher priority than including it. Are we going to work on this article, or are we going to bicker? - Che Nuevara 05:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, as a quick response to your comment about "every non-involved party who has come along has agreed that the version you keep reverting to is irreparable and needs to be rewritten", I'd like to take issue with it: I think that statement is incorrect. We've had many eyes going over this version (or one very close to it) during the last AfD, and the consensus there was to improve it, not to start over. Also, AntonRojo, who would hopefully be 'non-involved' by your definition (?) has just attempted to improve it, and in fact the current version is his. Crum375 12:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, this will sound like a rebuke, I think, but please appreciate that I sincerely do not mean it as one: This swirling madness has exasperated and driven away any number of folk. It may well simply be that the attempt at mediation, however well intended, is not possible. Might it make more sense, if you're still so inclined, to simply participate, as seems to you appropriate or not, as an editor rather than mediator? If it is possible to get more eyes on the entry, I think that might be helpful as well, but I don't know that that's possible. There are simply sincerely held but radically opposed positions here. They are not capable of reconciliation in my judgement, and there is far too little broad community awareness or interest to stabilize the situation. I frankly don't see how mediation, however well intended or well executed, can possibly succeed here. It was worth a try, but it seems to lead to simply another form of impasse. For whatever it's worth, you have my respect for your efforts. It's the effort that matters. The situation has simply proven infinitely frustrating for all concerned, from all perspectives. Perhaps Cowman or someone else will find an alternate path, who knows? Not every problem has a solution. We all know this. We all understand this. This may, at least for the present, be a problem of such character. So, at least, it seems to one particpant. GenghizRat 08:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

TSSR aka GenghizRat: I would love to take part as an editor. However, there is little or no real editing going on here. There is plenty of edit warring, and little else. If mediation is futile, trying to edit constructively will certainly be counterproductive. I can't make you edit constructively, but there are forums that can.

Crum: It should be obvious that saying that Antonrojo is "uninvolved" and that "the current version is his" are contradictory. And I meant people who have come along since I got here; that is indeed true. Why are you so averse to starting over? And why do you consistently sidestep the issue with arguments ad hominem?

I'm not kidding, guys. If you're not willing to act in good faith all the time, then this will quickly fall out of my hands. And not for lack of trying on my part. - Che Nuevara 17:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Wild Track

(The Misplaced Pages entry for the term 'wild track,' incidentally, is substantially in error as any competent audio engineer would tell anyone in a moment, and, no, I don't intend to set it right.)

That said, a wild track of a different sort: Perhaps this is a false problem. In the RfD discussions I believe the record will clearly indicate the New Zealand Tribunal was accepted as a verificable, thoroughly reliable source per Misplaced Pages criteria. There is to my knowledge no record of any comparable verifiable, thoroughly reliable source per Misplaced Pages criteria as to Yoshiaki Omura and his researches other than the New Zealand Tribunal.

Perhaps, then, there is no basis per Misplaced Pages criteria for an independent entry for Yoshiaki Omura, but, rather, there ought be a minor entry for the case of Richard Gorringe, which achieved some notoriety, and apparently resulted in alteration of regulations regarding alternative medicine in Australia and New Zealand.

There is, of course, an entry for Richard Gorringe at present, which RM some time ago edited to suit his perception. Perhaps the Yoshiaki Omura entry might simply be eliminated, and appropriately neutered language with respect to an en passant reference to Yoshiaki Omura might be included in that entry.

Perhaps, in other words, other than in the context of the Richard Gorringe entry, the Yoshiaki Omura entry ought not exist.

I recognize that, given the effort made to date it might be difficult to seriously consider such a possibility, but might it not make perfectly good sense? GenghizRat 08:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I personally think that given enough exposure to the general community, this entry can easily pass muster. I think the current version, after its last AfD scrutiny, is not far from ideal. It may need some tweaking here and there, and we can always do that, but just the fact that one side with a clear conflict of interest refuses to accept well sourced information is no reason to give up. It is reason to carefully scrutinize everything, and I am all for it, but I would not just trash the whole article because someone doesn't like the well sourced facts. WP is all about presenting well sourced knowledge, and that should be our 'track'. Crum375 12:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by Richardmalter

Richard, I don't lightly make accusations of vandalism, but I believe that removing other editors' Talk page comments is considered clear vandalism (see 'Talk page vandalism' under WP:VAN). If you don't like someone's civil comment, unless it contains a personal attack, you can't just delete it, though you may certainly reply to it. Thanks, Crum375 13:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum needs some ice cream to cool off

Crum, take it easy, remember to assume good faith, it was an error. What's the WP idea of getting some ice cream.Richardmalter 22:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

"unless mediation finds another consensus"

This troubles me:

Rvt to Rat/AntonRojo's last version - this is closest to post AfD - let's keep it unless Mediation finds another consensus

Truth is, it did find another consensus: we all agreed that we could start over and build from the ground up. And we all agreed to stop revert warring. Retracting those comments now does not mean that this consensus was not reached. I find this and similar reverts to be in extremely bad faith. - Che Nuevara 17:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I am still waiting for you to point me for a diff where we actually agreed via consensus to discard our existing post AfD version and replace it with a POV stub, or one that violates the last AfD's consensus agreement. We did agree to support a neutral (and new to the page) editor to try to come up with a new version in his Sandbox. We are still waiting for it to my knowledge. We never agreed to blindly accept whatever he came up with. I also noticed Cowman offering to try to come up with his own version over the weekend - that's also commendable, and I for one would be happy to see his version. We never agreed to, nor reached any consensus for, any POV version, short or long (and as I noted above, where Richardmalter deleted my response to you, the omission of a well sourced reference that reflects negatively on BDORT is certainly POV). If we need to build up a new version from scratch, either collectively or individually, that can be done in a Sandbox. Remember that the current version by AntonRojo (in a slightly older incarnation) had a relatively wide consensus during the last AfD process. I don't see any major problem with it; if anything needs to be fixed, that can be done in a civil and orderly fashion in the Talk page. If you feel that I have done something in bad faith, please point me to the specific diff, so I can address it. Thanks, Crum375 20:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, lack of content, contrary to popular opinion, is not a reason to delete an article; lack of potential content in. Slowly and carefully putting the content in does not violate the AfD consensus; if anything, it's the most responsible execution of that consensus.

In addition, your claims that the stub is POV -- and at that, more POV than the version you continually revert to -- are still unsubstantiated. Lack of information does not mean bias if the appropriate information is simply yet to be added. But material added in a way which does not reflect its sources is indeed a more serious breach of NPOV than temporarily leaving out information which is potentially controversial.

Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith. Also, three votes for delete and four for keep does not sound like "wide consensus", and if I had been the closing admin I probably would have announced it "no consensus" or relisted until there was consensus. - Che Nuevara 21:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, let me reply one point at a time.

I firmly believe that withholding a negative well sourced reference to an item is a form of POV by omission, as it clearly sways the balance to the positive side. If we are building an article step by step, it should be NPOV at every step of the way.

I am still waiting for a diff that shows we had consensus, or that I agreed to replace the article with a POV stub. We did agree to let the neutral editor try to come up with a version in his Sandbox, and we are still waiting for that.

Regarding the last AfD, maybe you consider these votes as not sufficient for a 'wide consensus'. But this was exposed to the wide community, and no one else chimed in. In any case, there was a neutral admin (who did not participate in the AfD) who decided on the outcome, and it was to Keep, and not to delete or to stub the article. If you disagree with that conclusion, that's legitimate, and we can start debating it again at any time, but we also can't just ignore the process because we disagree with it or its conclusions.

Regarding my 'lack of good faith' because I 'insist of interpreting things to the letter': First, I think we are supposed to assume good faith, until it becomes very clear it's simply not there. Are you saying that in your opinion I am not operating in good faith? Do you think I have some ulterior motive or some conflict of interest? Are you absolutely convinced of it? If you are not convinced, then I ask that you please continue assuming good faith.

Finally, Che, regarding our mediation process: Do you want to continue as mediator? I personally still trust you, I am sure you have no ax to grind and are neutral in the matter, but some of your recent statements appear to take sides. I see no problem if you wish to just become a party to the discussion and possibly let someone else take over as mediator. What do you think?

Crum375 22:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, just because something passed an AfD does not make it a good article. The amount of objection to the article in AfD should be a clear indication that it needs work; just because it squeaked by doesn't mean it's good.

Which of my statements indicate I am taking sides? That I want to start over because a number of editors have said it would be appropriate, and I believe that we could get a better article out of it, is not evidence of a bias. Because I believe that waiting to add information in a hotly contested article so that we can make sure it is properly used is not tantamount to "withholding information" is not evidence of a bias. The fact that a process that could and would have worked which was agreed to should not have been reneged on just because it was going slowly is not evidence of bias. And the fact that I am flabbergasted and upset that there have now been multiple promises not to continue reverting, which have also been reneged on, is not evidence of bias. This last point, by the way, seems to be a pretty good indication of bad faith. I hope that I'm wrong, but assuming good faith is getting difficult.

Finally, I have no desire whatsoever to become "a party to the discussion" because I don't really care about Omura or BDORT one way or the other. I do have a desire to do my best to end the ridiculous circumstances which have surrounded this article for some time. I think that makes me a plenty neutral mediator. I also doubt you're going to find a mediator more patient than I have been.

I want to get back to actually writing this article. I want to get away from this silly bickering and reverting. Everyone who's on board with that, please let's do so. If not, let me know, so appropriate reaction can be taken. - Che 23:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I agree that you have been very patient, and I am not shopping for a new mediator. But I also feel very strongly that by supporting a version that IMO is a BDORT ad, that knowingly ignores the best sourced scientific reference we have for BDORT, you are not acting as a mediator but as a party with a definite viewpoint. As far as the AfD, I am not saying that just because the article passed the AfD it is automatically blessed forever and needs no improvements. On the contrary, the decision was to keep improving it, and that's we are doing here. The decision did not endorse deleting or stubbing it, and certainly did not endorse a POV version that omits the most important reference which to a large extent is the focus of the entire article. I don't think that what we have here is 'silly bickering', by any side. We clearly have Richardmalter who has a declared conflict of interest and is a single issue editor, who sells BDORT as part of his practice. We have the anon-IP that is also single issue and apparently part of the Omura/BODRT group. On the other side we have WP editors who may differ slightly in style and priorities, but I believe all are eager to see this article become another well sourced and neutrally presented WP article, with no ax to grind. I don't think any of us here are generic quack-busters or pseudo-science fighters - all one has to do is check our contrib history. So it boils down to a simple conflict between the fervent and zealous BODRT advocates, whose livelihood depends on a BODRT-friendly article, that omits the clearly negative New Zealand Tribunal's report, vs. the other editors who only want a neutral well sourced presentation. Can this conflict be resolved by mediation? I am beginning to doubt it. I think voluntary 'mediation' when one side has a financial stake in the outcome, and the others are volunteers who want to see well-sourced neutrality, may be impossible. I wonder if we have a precendent on WP for such a situation being resolved by mediation alone. Crum375 23:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, I think you're misunderstanding my statements about the "neutrality". I'm not arguing that the version without the Tribunal citation should be the version of the article we "accept" as the long-term article. What I'm saying is that it's a good starting place. I'm not supporting the article, I'm supporting the process which is being impeded by revert warring. As far as I'm aware the Tribunal citation is the most significant (particularly given the previous AfD), so I think we should settle the discussion on it post haste. However, continually reverting back and forth will not solve any problems.

Crum, it seems to me that your primary objection to the stub is the lack of the Tribunal citation. Richard, you disagree with the current wording of the Tribunal citation. The result of the AfD was in fact that the controversy is what makes Omura notable. Crum, I can promise you on anything you like that have I have no stake or interest in Omura or BDORT whatsoever. I'm not even on a first-name basis with any doctors, E&M experts, or anyone who knows anything about this sort of thing, and my area of expertise is Modern Central European cultural history. I freely admit that I don't have the background or knowledge to make any sort of judgment on this issue. I assure you that my intentions here are only forward motion, which this most recent whirlwind has once again brought to a halt.

Would it be satisfactory to both of you if I would redact the short version of the article which includes the Tribunal citation to what I see as a both neutral and informative version so that we can move on with this? - Che Nuevara 00:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

(outdent) Che, if you read my comment carefully, I assume no real bias for anyone except Richardmalter and the anon-IP. That of course means that I fully realize that like all of us you have no ax to grind, and all you want, like all of us, is to get to a well-sourced NPOV article ASAP so we can move on something else. But you have not addressed my general point about the likelihood for success of this mediation process. Given that we have conflict of interest single-issue (COI-SI) editors (Richardmalter and the anon-IP) vs. a bunch of well-meaning volunteers (myself included), can the voluntary mediation process ever work? Take the simple suggestion you have about trying to reach a 'short' NPOV version. You agree that NZT is needed, but if you were somehow able to convince the COI-SI bunch that they must swallow it, they would then fight tooth-and-nail over every word. Remember that to them, any negative appearance to the BDORT article means potential loss of income, whereas to the rest of us it's just a bunch of ideals, and the time we spend here can also be spent elsewhere, either on WP or RL. So bottom line is that I think we need to take a step back and think whether this process has a chance to succeed in converging to a stable version. A WP precedent would be helpful, where mediation alone has settled a conflict with a zealous COI-SI group with a financial interest in the outcome. Crum375 01:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what you would like me to do about it. Having a conflict of interest is not actually a breach of policy; it's just a bad idea. If you're suggesting arbitration, that still won't solve the content dispute, I think. I really do believe that, if we start from a stub, we can slowly but surely build the article up from the ground. That's my honest belief. - Che Nuevara 01:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying that WP:COI is automatically in breach of policy, although the guideline sheds some light on the situation. Arbitration does not decide content and I am not suggesting going there at this point. I think you are assuming there is some minimal 'stub' that would meet the basic WP requirements except perhaps it won't be as detailed, and will be acceptable to the COI-SI as well as the others. I tend to doubt it very much. By using simple logic, it would require as a minimum BDORT (Omura alone would violate consensus in both AfD1 and 2 that only the combination of Omura and BDORT justifies WP inclusion). By having BDORT, we must have NZT, as that is the primary well sourced reference to it. Then, as I noted above, you'll fight an uphill battle getting the COI-SI group to accept the citation's wording. At this point, I just don't see it. I am trying to be realistic and save everyone's time. What I suggest at this time is to collect opinions and ideas from across WP as to the best way to handle this situation of fervent zealous financially motivated COI-SI group vs. a bunch of well meaning WP volunteers. A precedent would be helpful (all the ones I know are via ArbCom, but there may be others). Crum375 01:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you are assuming there is some minimal 'stub' that would meet the basic WP requirements except perhaps it won't be as detailed, and will be acceptable to the COI-SI as well as the others.

No, that's not what I'm assuming. What I'm saying is that we, right now, have a stub which (by virtue of being a stub) isn't very good, but it's at least a start. Gzkn and Cowman both recommended a complete rewrite. If you are committed to the consensus of the community, as you say, don't you think it makes sense to listen to the two least involved editors who came along? The stub is not a good article, of course, because it's a stub, but we can work together to make it one. - Che Nuevara 02:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, the current stub version is POV and is simply unacceptable. You yourself tried to revert the anon-IP and were reverted back by him. This is clearly not an acceptable situation. There is no consensus that I am aware of that says this POV version is acceptable. The only consensus that did exist, formally at the end of AfD-2 was to keep the full version, and to keep improving it further. That was and is the will of the community as it was last expressed. Crum375 02:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You say the stub version is POV and unacceptable. Richard says the old version is POV and unacceptable. Six of one, half dozen of another. Two independent editors came along and said the article should be rewritten from scratch. I offered to put my uninterested wording of the Tribunal citation into the stub article so we can move on with said rewriting process. What objection do you have to that? - Che Nuevara 02:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, it seems to me that you are (probably unintentionally) misrepresenting the community consensus (which I still maintain is dubious at best). As far as I can see, the only editors other than you to mention the Tribunal were Philosophus (who voted keep) and TealCyfre (who nominated it for deletion). Even if there was a consensus, the Tribunal in particular was not part of it. - Che Nuevara 02:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict I'll reply to your last point separately)

Clearly the COI-SI group will consider any version that is not a BDORT ad as 'POV'. This is exactly the problem with having COI-SI editors as parties to this discussion. To them neutrality is not the issue at all - their only motivation is to get the best possible BDORT-friendly version, that will keep their accountants happy. Therefore I don't think that it is '6 of that vs. half-dozen of the other'. It is simply the COI-SI version vs. the well-sourced neutral version. If you think you can create a short version that includes Omura and BDORT (both are needed per both AfD's for the article to be included) and includes the NZT reference, with proper language, good luck to you. I highly suspect that your chances of finding verbiage that will be acceptable to both aforementioned camps, is slim to none. In fact, all that will happen is an edit conflict between the two sides, since their aims are clearly mutually exclusive - there is no middle ground. So after you invest all that effort on your short version, we'll end up reverting back and forth the same way as now. I believe in seeing a goal before embarking on a journey. At this point I need to understand how the financially motivated COI-SI zealots can ever be balanced against well-sourced neutral presentation fans, assuming they are both given an 'Edit' button. Crum375 02:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the AfD consensus, please recall the history here. There were originally 2 articles, BDORT and Omura. They were both about to be deleted, but during AfD-1 editors realized that the combination of BDORT/Omura is notable and hence warrants inclusion. The main mainstream scientific reference in the BDORT article was (and still is) the NZT. This reference was in the article, facing the reviewers, in both AfD discussions. Reviewers don't need to actually specify which reference proves notability, but this was the most important (mainstream, neutral, reputable) one there. The consensus reached after AfD-1 was keep and was followed shortly by a merge decision, into the current Omura/BDORT combination. Bottom line: the NZT was and is the primary reference supporting BDORT, which was decided as 'notable' by consensus, and Omura was accepted as notable because of his connection to BDORT. Hence the NZT was the key source to both AfD's. Crum375 03:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you believe that Cowman and Gzkn, who both recommended a complete rewrite, also have a conflict of interest? - Che Nuevara 03:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. As I mentioned above, there is only one COI-SI group, which is Richardmalter and the anon-IP. All the rest are well intentioned and neutral WP editors, who would like to see the article become a good WP article, well sourced and neutral. The only differences among the neutral WP editors have to do with style and priorities as to how to get to that target. BTW, I would also include AntonRojo in the neutral group, it is his version we are reverting to, and I think it's a pretty reasonable one. Crum375 03:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum needs to stop: slandaring; reverting his agreements; acting in very bad faith continuously

Crum, I think you are clearly acting in very bad faith. You have a very clear bias that was revealed in your note to Addhoc:

". . .who sells it for a living, despite the procedure (and related techniques) being declared '...irresponsible and unacceptable' by a Medical Disciplinary Review Board in NZ, please carry on. Be aware however, that the advocates, of which we have seen several, will persist until the article will look their way. When they are done, it will say that BDORT is a wonderful technique, that can diagnose and heal most diseases, from the common cold to cancer, and has simply not been appreciated by mainstream medicine. Be also aware that there are people out there, potential WP readers, who will rely on BDORT to the exclusion of conventional diagnoses and treatments, as was the case in NZ, with possible dire consequences. It is clearly not WP's role to perform any WP:OR, and we must only present WP:NPOV and WP:RS. But . . . professional advocates, who will persist indefinitely, as their livelihoods clearly depend on it."

You want to warn the world about perceived dangers you see in the BDORT. Your own words say what your bias is. Yet you do not 'admitt' it! Che noted it straightaway and noted that your opinions are in fact quite clear. This bias of yours that you wont declare publicly (you 'slipped up' once) explains why you wont even accept a NPOV stub. It also explains why you act in bad faith in many other cases - eg 'headlining' me as making unilateral changes very previously, when the very next thing you do is make "unilateral change" which is when I had to point out to everyone your sham mediation attempt. You also repeatedly revert complete mediated consensus agreements that you were part of and then try to weedle out of admitting it until I pin you down about it and you have nothing further to say but keep quite (see above). That is extremely bad faith. You also continue to slandar people every which way and think (perhaps like yourself in your day to day like) that everyone here who does not agree with you is motivated by money here primarily or even at all. Which you would be wrong about either way. Slandaring people, Crum, is uncivil behaviour. Even when I correct you re myself you continue to blatantly misrepresent me and many others. This is the height of bad faith and uncivil behaviour. Your acts of bad faith and completely uncivil behaviour are very prominent and many. I am trying to assume good faith towards you all the time, in action (however not thought), but your behaviour is virtually making that impossible. That is why I conclude that you have a very severe memory problem, as the only good faith solution to explain your actions by. I am sure that that makes the position clear. If it doesn't, get some help understanding it, from someone else, not me. I am guessing that you are some kind of medical doctor or aspiring medical person ror armchair expert of some kind who is fervently against anything like the BDORT. But that is just my guess. The rest of what I write above here, about your most uncivil behaviour is documented. This is not a personal attack; it is an exposure of uncivil behaviour which is unacceptable. ] 05:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

And if TSSR AKA all the other names he switches to does not stop ridiculing me et al I will give some further 'exposure' regarding his connection to Dr Omura and the BDORT as well which will further shed light on the POVs involved here. This is not a threat; it is merely an expression of intent after many months of patience with slandar and waste of time and energy and enormously uncivil beahviour - however zanily or subtley hidden and disguised.Richardmalter 06:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Also Sprach GenghizRat

I would argue that on the evidence it is not possible to mediate this entry.

The present active participants are, on the one hand, RM and Dots, who support a truncated form of the entry with the exclusion of the New Zealand Tribunal’s negative characterization of Omura/BDORT, and, on the other hand, Crum, AR, and myself.

Gzkn had briefly appeared, offered to sandbox a new version of the entry, and has not been heard from since.

Che has embraced the RM/Dots form of the entry in the belief that it is possible to build out a valid consensual form of the entry from this stub.

Cowman has quite recently offered to work up and present a revised form of the entry.

I am disposed to the following judgements:

1) The probability of building out an acceptable form of the entry from the present stub is effectively nil, for reasons that ought, in my judgement, be abundantly obvious.

2) As community consensus within Misplaced Pages is effectively demonstrable in instances where agreement cannot be reached by all participants only via the mechanism of the much-maligned (rightly so) revert war, there is simply no other mechanism available, all substantive matters having been addressed ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

I will, therefore, operate on that basis, as I find no support available within my admittdly finite comprehension of what we laughingly refer to as reality for the positions represented by Omura/BDORT/Richard/Dots.

If Cowman or anyone else is able to present a suitable solution, I would hope that I have the elementary sense to recognize and acknowledge that fact. GenghizRat 04:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

PS: As a bot has now happily reverted my attempt at participation, I will now leave you to your endless discussions, and Misplaced Pages to its course. GenghizRat 04:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

1. I left a message with the owner of the bot assuring him that I don't believe it was vandalism, and the revert was improper.
2. I cannot disagree strongly enough that I am "endorsing a version". I am endorsing forward progress, which seems to have come to a grinding halt due to the most recent edit war.
3. Your decision to "laughingly refer to" someone else's position is over the line. You may disagree with Richard's opinions on the matter, but that doesn't automatically make them crap. Your choice to use these words pretty much negates your any claim that you, as well, are neutral on the issue.

Interpret these as you wish. If you choose to leave, I can't stop you. - Che Nuevara 06:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Please read this before responding to anyone else's comments!

Can we quit the argument ad hominem, on both sides, and get back to working on the article? A simple yes or no will do. - Che Nuevara 06:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, with respect to you for your time and energy, I have read and will go along with your direction here. Thank you.Richardmalter 06:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Richard. I realize that you both have deeply entrenched opinions, and you each believe the other to be mistaken in his point of view. But I honestly believe that the two of you can get past that if you both agree to put aside the mess and focus on the facts of this case. - Che Nuevara 07:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, in response to your question, of course I would like to continue working on improving this article. And I for one try my best to refrain from ad hominem attacks. OTOH, I think there are some unclear issues that need addressing first. I specifically asked how you think we can logically solve the impasse reached when a group of fervent, zealous and financially motivated conflict of interest single-issue (COI-SI) BDORT advocates whose income depends on a positive ad-like presentation of BDORT, are pitted against a group of well meaning neutral WP volunteer editors whose sole goal is to reach a well sourced and neutral presentation. You didn't respond to my question above as to how you think even a short version can be logically created, when it must by definition include BDORT and NZT, and the COI-SI group will fight tooth-and-nail to suppress the NZT, which by putting BDORT in a negative light directly affects their income which depends on BDORT. Unless we have some clear and logical roadmap that can explain how to overcome this clear impasse, I don't see how you plan to just forge ahead. I am simply being realistic - I think coming up with some reasonable plan makes sense for all of us. Crum375 10:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The version I have posted now includes the NZT citation in what I believe to be a very accurate way. I think, given that the AfD called for an article which explores the controversy, there are no real grounds to argue against it. I hope that Richard sees this, and believe that he will. This "controversy" is furthered, I believe, by the very pared down use of the Shinnick citation. Although this article is, admittedly, bare bones, it's my personal opinion that everything in it is fair, and I hope that Richard will agree.

The anonymous IP has yet to show willingness to join in discussion or to approach sources appropriately. If he would like to do these things, he can, but if continues to misuse sources without attempting any real discussion, I don't think our consensus-gathering effort should concern itself with him. - Che Nuevara 20:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, Crum reverted to the version he likes that again means he breaks his own agreement which is the height of bad faith. I reverted him. But to the version before you added the Tribunial bit. But please note, not because I object to it even now at this stage, but because I do insist that it also contain the direct quote where the Tribunial states that the materials Gorringe used appeared to them to be different from Omuras and so dont help the Tribunial much anyway. Please.

sources

I added very brief summaries of both sources, both of which are clearly supported by said sources. Everyone, please do not change them to say things that are not reflected in the sources. When in doubt, go back to the source and read it thoroughly. - Che Nuevara 20:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I think your effort is commendable. It remains to be seen if Richard and friends can agree to it. My concern is mostly omission. We mention BDORT, but we don't say that BDORT is a patient forming an 'O' with his/her finger and the examiner trying to pry the fingers open. We also neglect to mention a slew of other Omura inventions, like the 'Solar papers' - a piece of paper you leave in the sun to absorb the sun's energy, which then has various healing properties. We don't mention the remote-control tele-BDORT - you can have the patient make the 'O' with his/her fingers over the phone. We don't mention that Omura sued General Motors for pollution on behalf of the people of the United States. We don't mention the psychic healing by channeling to Dr. Fritz. And so on and so on. All of these dropped items of course have good sources. By the time we'll be done fixing your version, guess what? It will be our original version, give or take, after we spend many more months of work on it. And lastly, regarding the missing POV-balance, we negelect to cite the most important NZT passage:

"We therefore accept that PMRT is not a plausible, reliable, or scientific technique for making medical decisions. We find there is no plausible evidence that PMRT has any scientific validity. It therefore follows that reliance on PMRT to make diagnoses to the exclusion of conventional and/or generally recognized diagnostic/investigatory techniques is unacceptable and irresponsible." (PMRT is used synonymously with BDORT by the Tribunal)

Crum375 20:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, I will ask this one final time. Are you, or are you not, willing to, in good faith, work with the others here, myself included, to start rewriting the article, as suggested by both Cowman and Gzkn? You are now the one being resistant to mediation. Richard has agreed to work on a rewrite. Any more accusations that "conflict of interest" is holding up this mediation are completely devoid of merit. Either you're willing to work on this in the way that two independent editors suggested, or you aren't. It's very simple. Yes or no. - Che Nuevara 20:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I do appreciate all the work you have done so far. I have nothing but admiration for your neutrality and dedication. But I also think that a mediator cannot become a party to a dispute. In this case, as I see it, we have three (3) neutral, unrelated contributors to the article, namely myself, GenghizRat and Antonrojo, who are supporting Antonrojo's most recent revision. On the other hand we have your own attempted version, which I personally feel is problematic and I tried to explain that in my message above. We also have the COI-SI group's version, which tries to present BDORT in the most favorable way, since any negative light shed on BDORT may impact their finances. We also have other neutral people, such as Cowman and Gzkn, working on their own private versions, that we have yet to see. Given this situation, I just don't see what is being mediated and by whom. I doubt that the COI-SI group will ever accept a version that shows BDORT in a negative light. They will fight every inch of the way to counter it. OTOH, your own short version is still not NPOV, is missing lots of well sourced material and will eventually, once completed, come back full circle to the Antonrojo's version if a neutral well sourced course is followed. Bottom line: I am not sure how this situation can be answered with a simple Yes/No. Do I want WP to have the best possible, well sourced and neutral article for BDORT/Omura? Of course. How to get there, given that we have the financially motivated COI-SI group resisting well sourced facts such as the NZT? I am not sure. Crum375 21:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The question's not that hard, Crum. It doesn't merit that sort of answer. It merits a yes or a no. I have said time and time again that of course a shortened version won't be perfect, but it is a starting spot. It's the type of starting spot that was suggested by Cowman and Gzkn and agreed to by Richard. Do you agree to it, yes or no? I would like an answer of exactly one word. - Che Nuevara 21:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

No. And please let me explain why. I think we have 3 neutral contributors who agree to Antonrojo's version. We have the COI-SI group who'll never accept anything that doesn't praise BDORT, let alone denigrates it, for obvious financial reasons. Your short version is NPOV and missing many well sourced items, as I tried to explain. If we fix up your short version using the standard WP rules, we'll end up with AR's version, which we already have now, after investing a lot more time and effort. I also think that you need to decide your own role - whether you are mediating or participating as a party. Both roles are acceptable to me, but I think you need to decide which you prefer. Crum375 21:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, it is the role of the mediator to both foster discussion and keep discussion reasonable. I have done nothing that indicates a leaning towards either side -- I have asked you several times to support this claim, and each time you have simply repeated your accusation without examples. What I have done, however, is my best to reign in the ridiculous edit warring and outlandish behavior going on here. I will not stoop to your crass accusations that I am somehow "party" to the discussion, nor will I dignify your claim to being one of the few, the proud, the neutral.

It is quite frankly a matter of lucky for all involved here that this article did not attract more admin attention, because most people here seem to forget that edit warring in itself, even if there is no 3RR violation, is in fact grounds for blocking. You will notice, on the other hand, that my very few reverts have always been centrist and with the intention of forward progress.

It seems clear to me now, Crum, that "neutrality" at this article seems to mean "willingness to agree with whichever party is speaking at the moment", a trend which no amount of your protestations will deflect.

Please consider this case closed. I am drafting a notice of closure, a summary statement, and a recommendation for further action. I apologize to those very few who were indeed made good faith efforts in this article. - Che Nuevara 21:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry to hear you say that Che. Hopefully you'll at least read my response here. First, I never said that you were not neutral. I praised your neutrality every step of the way, and I agree with you that it is your strongest suit. By saying that you are a party by creating a version I do not mean for a moment that you are taking sides. I absolutely accept that you have no ax to grind. I do think that a short version that I consider POV is not a good way to proceed, given that we'll end up right back where we started. Hopefully you can see that I have invested a lot of time and effort on this entry, disproportional to other articles, that I enjoy more. The reason is simply because I came here as an informal mediator trying to help, and decided to stay until the article is stable and WP-acceptable. Obviously it's not quite there yet, but I haven't given up hope. I actually think we've made some minor headway, now that we have 3 independent contributors to the article who agree on a common version. I hope we can continue and find a way to converge on a stable version. Again I appreciate all the work you have done, all your good will, and exemplary neutrality. I wish you luck in all your other endeavors, here and elsewhere. Thanks, Crum375 22:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, Crum reverted to the version he likes that again means he breaks his own agreement which is the height of bad faith. I reverted him (if you review the mediation process from months back, he always tried to hold up the process, this is nothing new), but to the version before you added the Tribunial bit. But please note, not because I object to it even now at this stage, so please put it back if you wish, but because I do insist that it also contain the direct quote where the Tribunial states that the materials Gorringe used appeared to them to be different from Omuras and so dont help the Tribunial much anyway. Please. Richardmalter 21:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

If you notice, I did actually include that material, just not as a direct quote. - Che Nuevara 21:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Che, I did notice, and just reread it in order not to be a 'hothead' about it. Would you mind just a minor tweak and put in the direct quote? Richardmalter 21:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Also re the Shinnick citation, I think it can be worked on, but fine for now the way you have it.Richardmalter 21:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Re Tribunal: a small tweak is alright, as long as it's indicative of the actual source. I by no means thought of my version as a "definitive" stub, just hopefully one that pointed forwards instead of backwards.

Re Shinnick: I hope it's clear that the way the anonymous IP has been using the Shinnick is a clear misuse of citation. - Che Nuevara 21:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

To save you some time, :

"it would appear from a perusal of those materials that the technique which Dr Gorringe practises is different from that practised by Dr Omura ."

is from the Tribunial report word for word.

RE Shinnick citation - I realise there was some WP:OR in it.Richardmalter 21:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

case closed

I am closing the mediation case. It has become clear to me that no amount of discussion will ever produce circumstances under which the editors involved in this case will all act neutrally and with good faith. No solution is amenable to the totality of contributors here; repeated argument ad hominem, found constantly in objections to both previous and new versions and ideas, belies the complete unwillingness of the involved to engage in discussion about content which would lead to progress within the article.

I strongly discourage any further attempts at informal mediation or resolution by any other mediators, as, quite frankly, this article has sucked away enough hours of my life, and further efforts are likely only to frustrate other mediators and waste their time as well.

I am prepared to draft formal statements for any formal action taken in any way. Please contact me if any action related to this article is taken. I will make a more formal statement of circumstances on the article's case page.

Peace. - Che Nuevara 21:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

True, a WP:RFAR would be the best option now as mediation is clearly not getting anywhere. There has been quite a bit of behavioral issues here so those can be addressed through a RFAr. Cowman109 21:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Cowman, do you want to proceed with your possible rewrite, let things proceed of their own, have this thing go to arbitration, or what? (I mean that as a neutral question, a simple inquiry, not a challenge.) Frankly, I'm sick of this *bleep*, and inclined to go with any reasonable suggestion – or maybe just chuck the whole deal, as I've attmpted to do at a number of points. Any thoughts or suggestions? GenghizRat 01:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I thank you for your efforts. They are, I am certain, appreciated and respected by all parties involved with this entry. It would seem to me that, at the very least, your efforts have established that the core problem in this situation is radically differing irreconcilable perspectives, with comparatively few parties involved. They have also established, far more importantly, that a person committed to a good faith effort to resolve conflict is a thing of very considerable value in and of itself, irrespective of the outcome. That, in my estimation, is no small thing.

Peace. GenghizRat 00:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, guys, I would really like to believe that it's possible, but it just doesn't seem that way. I thank you for your kind words. I honestly do believe that everyone in this dispute means well, but different people obviously have different ideas of what is right, and unfortunately there was not enough flexibility in those ideas here. I hope this won't happen again.

Peace to all. - Che Nuevara 03:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Peace, Che. GenghizRat 03:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I have not yet had time to attempt a rewrite, but a RFAR does not seem far out of reach as there clearly are behavioral disputes that people seem to want to be addressed that arbitration can address. Cowman109 03:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion the behavioral disputes are rooted in deeply differing sincerely held radically differing perspectives and judgements. Is there no way within Misplaced Pages's structure to in effect determine what a community consensus may be? As I've said, in real world contexts such differences would ultimately be placed before a senior editor, editor-in-chief, whatever, who would, for good or ill settle the matter by deciding it. Here, it seems to me, there is no possible resolution other than to wait until one or more parties become so exasperated that their behavior becomes sufficient to bar or restrict them. Frankly, it seems to me an utterly inappropriate mechanism to render what is ultimately a judgement as to appropriate content. Have you any suggestion, from a more remote perspective, as to what seems best? As I've said, I'm open. GenghizRat 03:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum caused the mediation to break down, again

Well done Crum, you could not even agree on a stub while we discussed. A bigger bias than that. .. You are as Che told you the one who has inhibited the mediation; as I know you have done for months.

Che, I am sorry for your result-unfruitful waste of time and energy. But I think you thoroughly succeeded in nailing down here what the problem actually is, which is given in whast you stated re Crum above.

For the closing record, I was happy to go with the stub while we worked on it. Crum was not even that. That is the summary. Thank you again for all your efforts which were very considerable indeed. Best wishes to you.

It also needs to be noted that both the Mediator and I repeatedly told Crum and pointed out to him his repeated acting in bad faith. Richardmalter 04:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, please recognize that there are now three independent contributors to the article who support Antonrojo's version. If the mediation failed, I suspect it was for a combination of reasons, partly due to my own insistence on maintaining a well sourced NPOV version at all times, but also due to the anon-IP's and your own actions. All you need to do is follow Che's edit summaries lately on the article's history and see that he was frustrated by all of us. I also recognize that as a practitioner who uses BDORT in his daily practice you feel you must defend BDORT, and the NZT is unfortunately a very negative reference for it. I assume you understand that WP's mission is to include all well sourced and neutrally presented information for a given subject, hence we must include the NZT reference with the proper quotation from it, along with all the other properly sourced information. If you really want to get results, e.g. modified verbiage as we discussed in the past, please let's address your concerns here in the Talk page, and let's try to agree on changes here without edit-warring over them in the article, which will be counter productive. Thanks, Crum375 05:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, please recognize that a number of people are describing your behaviour as continued lack of good faith. See above for a more detailed description. The version you refer to breaks your own agreement that I have documented. This is extremely direspectful behaviour (even though you made extensive efforts to forget your decisions). You pull the wool over no one's eyes.Richardmalter 05:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted for the record that Crum is actually another name for Satan, and is responsible for global warming, frictional losses in mechanical systems, depradations caused by quantum tunneling, and excessive shedding by certain breeds of domestic animals such as long-haired cats. GenghizRat 05:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Antonrojo, please understand the fact that you are reverting a version that contains huge amounts of WP:OR and more specifically information and presentation that ALL people here have agreed by consensus is not OK (in previous mediation - archives). It is therefore not WP:correct of you to just revert as you see fit and ignore the WP community consensus on these points. Next. Everyone here, even Crum who tries to weedle out of his agreement again and who has stopped the mediation process by his acting continually in bad faith as the Mediator and I pointed out to him, agreed to have a stub version while we Start Over. This caused a ceasation of all edit wars for some time - your actions, again ignoring WP consensus community decisions are bringing on an edit war again. Now is your turn to show extended good faith and settle with a stub version while we work through citations or get Arbitration because of Crum's behaviour - which is probably what is needed.Richardmalter 05:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, have you been drinking the KoolAid again, Richard? GenghizRat 05:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

GR, your zany comments are here or there. If you revert this version you are breaking your own agreements. Is that or is that not clear mate? Richardmalter 05:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe, Richard, you are clearly over the revert limit. Perhaps if you didn't insist on reverting the version which three other folks active on the entry seem to prefer to work with, it might be helpful. GenghizRat 05:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

ps: To paraphrase Chris Knight from Real Genius: Zany? Zany? Who talks like that? GenghizRat 05:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

GR, you agreed to go with a stub. You are acting in bad faith. This version also has things in it that you specifically and explicitly in mediation agreed against, voluntarily. This is a very poor act of good faith, if there is such a thing. Your clinging to WP:3 revert rule cant change those facts. You either act in good faith or you do not. You either obey your own agreements or you do not. It is very simple. It requires, as Che asked of Crum, a simple yes or no (that Crum weedled out of in very bad faith). You have in the past asked of my good faith, which up to now as you know I have kept, but you and Crum are as Che implied wasting people's time and productive lives with continued bad faith - I am not alone in saying this; you need to know that my intention is that there is a limit to this. Arbitration will silence all of such nonsense.Richardmalter 06:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Our perceptions, Richard, as you may have noted, differ. If you feel arbitration is appropriate, as you felt mediation was appropriate, I suggest, as in the case of your request for mediation, you follow your judgement where it leads you. GenghizRat 06:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You are acting in bad faith. You know that the mediation archives show some things were closed as agreed (by all). You are breaking objective documented decisions, as well as the Starting Over agreement. This has nothing to do with perceptions - but good faith and respect. If that is still not clear ask someone else, not me. Please revert now to the stub that Che prepared.Richardmalter 06:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I indicated some time ago that my understanding was that the stub was allowed to stand, provisionally, pending Gzkn's stated intent to produce a sandboxed version of the entry for all to consider afresh and that, after some considerable time, as that did not happen, and I judged your stubbed version unsatisfactory, I indicated rescission of that provisional acceptance of your stubbed entry. I fail to see how that constitutes bad faith. I'm perfectly content to stand on the record.

Please pass the cheese, thank you. GenghizRat 06:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Lets say I accept what you say in good faith. The other point, though, that you participated in a full consensus, voluntary mediation process that reached clear decisions re pseudocience citations, that you were fully part of, you now revert, and have done repeatedly. No room for interpretation there - you just are acting very disrespectfully to everyone involved now and in the past. Please revert to she most stable version we have ever had in fact - the stub that Che drafted.Richardmalter 06:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That is not my comprehension of the facts, which is, I believe, if anyone summons the superhuman patience, supported by the record. I am sorry, Richard, but I have no reason to substitute your judgement for my own. GenghizRat 06:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion closed and action taken as agreed. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Yoshiaki_Omura/MediationArchive_1

What's this, a fabrication?! I guess you and Crum both have serious memory problems, is the only good faith way I can interpret your behaviour.Richardmalter 06:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, this ground has been covered, time and again. I will not reargue at length what has already been argued and reargued on innumerable occasions. The record, will, I believe, speak for itself for anyone with the infinite patience to consider it. I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to desist from gratuitous insults.

If you would be so kind as to pass the cheese it would, in fact, be appreciated, thank you. GenghizRat 06:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

So do you deny that what is documented in the archive happened? IF you do not, what agreement was made there? Bad faith, as the mediator also pointed out re Crum, extendedly. Richardmalter 06:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I am simply pointing out, in all sincerity, that our comprehension of the conduct in question and of the record appears to differ. I believe the record will support me, and I will stand on that. I presume you feel similarly, in all good faith. We differ. That's the way it is, at least in my understanding. GenghizRat 06:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, as I noted many times before, I agree with you that not all is perfect in our current version. And I do want to keep improving it. But the proper way to do it is without violating WP:3RR (which you have just done yet again), without ad hominem attacks, and by agreeing to discuss every change right here on the Talk page prior to modifying the article. If you will agree to these ground rules, and will promise to never violate WP:3RR again, and never to make any modification to the article prior to our reaching consensus here on the Talk page, I'll be happy to work with you and accept your inputs. Although you may not believe it, just like the day I arrived as informal mediator on this page, I still very much want the article to reflect true neutrality, and not one atom's width offset from neutrality to either side of a perfect balance. So please give this a chance. What do you say? Crum375 06:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, you avoid the point, as usual. You are also breaking your agreements as GR is doing. Che asked you if you will have a stub while we work on it. He even included the Tribunial info - all in summary. You would not agree. The Mediator and I have told you flatly that you are acting in continued bad faith. You are. GR is doing the same. You cannot dismiss as my opinions of your bad faith, Che saw and stated the same thing. Stop weedling. Revert the stub Che prepared and we can discuss. Otherwise your reputation is of a continuous bad editor of wikipedia that has been noted by me and the Mediator as such on the record. I will in the meantime endow you with a very poor memory in good faith.Richardmalter 07:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, one of the beauties of WP is that everything we say is on the record and easy to retrieve as a 'diff'. If you want to discuss what I said or agreed to in the past, that's the way to do it: present the diff and I'll respond. But for us to collaborate productively on this article I would have to have your promises as I noted above. Then we can start addressing each and every one of your concerns, with or without a moderator. Remember I have no financial gain either way - all I want is an NPOV and well sourced article. Crum375 07:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I will again direct you to my comments above, Richard. I believe it's quite clear from the record that, as Gzkn had just appeared and offered to produce a sandboxed version of the entry within a few days, which, unfortunately, has not as yet happened, as Che had indicated he would be away for some days over the Thanksgiving Holiday, I agreed to simply, provisionally, let you have a go at a shorter version of the entry. I honestly think it was quite clear that this was simply provisional, pending time and the return of Che and the production of Gzkn's sandboxed entry as an uninvolved outsider's attempt at contributing a version of the entry on which all might, hopefully, agree to work. As time passed, as Gzkn did not return or present a sandboxed version, I eventually concluded that it was appropriate to rescind my provisional acceptance of the stubbed entry. I'm sorry if this created an appearance of bad faith in your mind, but I don't think it constituted bad faith, and I believe a close reading of the record will confirm that. That's my understanding of what you're referring to. I don't question your sincerity, Richard, but we sincerely differ here. As I said, I have no reason to accept your judgement in place of my own. GenghizRat 07:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

An additional thought: I'm willing, if there's general agreement, to operate in the fashion Crum suggests. I think, though, that there must be general agreement, and that AR — I think — seems more inclined to work on the longer entry directly rather than via the mechanism of all changes being first agreed in discussion. Frankly, this also seems to me a possible valid approach. So, perhaps I seem ambivalent here, but I think it would be essential to involve AR in consideration of how best to proceed, and not neglect his contributions to date and possible desire to so contribute in future. I would think all would agree that that, too, is important. GenghizRat 07:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Crum375 07:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The cats away so you two are playing top mice. Crum I will start every reply to you and whenever you are mentioned from hereon with: Crum375 has been determined by the previous Mediator, Che, as having "a continued lack of good faith" and "resistant to mediation". I refer you Crum to the above re your behaviour. You avoid repeatedly, slandar, misrepresent, revert your agreements, and hide your biases. We will start from a stub or have an edit war. You have tried your tricks before. Your reputation will be relayed to the Arbitration people as well as widely in wikipedia.Richardmalter 08:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

RichardMalter, see WP:CIVIL. Antonrojo 14:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richardmalter (talk · contribs) has been blocked for 24 hours due to yet another WP:3RR violation. Crum375 14:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Summary of disputed issues

Here's a summary of disputed issues that Che listed on the peer review page which might be a good focus for consensus-building: Antonrojo 16:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(list below pasted from comment by Che at Misplaced Pages:Peer_review/Yoshiaki_Omura)

From where I see it, the actual issues are:

1. How notable does a source have to be to speak on a topic which is only borderline notable? How expert does he have to be to talk about something about which little is known? (Shinnick citation)
2. How can a topic with few or no secondary sources be cited? (Tribunal citation)
3. Is it appropriate to cite a lack of sources? That is, is the absence of evidence the evidence of absence? (Disclaimers)
4. Is the article primarily about Omura, or primarily about BDORT? If its focus is Omura, how much of Omura's notability is owed to BDORT?
5. Is it appropriate to discuss other doctors and their techniques who cite Omura?

I have only a moment at the moment. If I may, I'd like to offer my thoughts along these lines later today. GenghizRat 20:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

All righty, then. Simply to compare thoughts, this is the comparable list I'd draw up. I'm not saying it's superior, I'm simply saying that this is the list I'd draw up:

1: Is Yoshiaki Omura, the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test, and/or his other researches and techniques notable according to Misplaced Pages criteria of notability?

2: If he and/or they is/are notable, on what basis, precisely?

3: If he and/or they is/are notable, what is the principal focus of the entry, and what, if any, are its subsidiary foci, and in what hierarchy of importance?

4: Does the basis or bases of notability define or constrain the entry in any fashion, or, once notability is established, is the entry then open beyond the established basis or bases of notability, and, if so, in what fashion?

5: Are there any particular considerations as to appropriate sourcing and/or expertise other than the standard considerations within Misplaced Pages practice which apply to this entry, and, if so, what are they?

6: Ought there or ought there not be any consideration given to an editor’s assertion of expertise or declaration of professional and/or financial interest in the matters under consideration? GenghizRat 23:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll bite and add a few of mine:

1. What are the criteria for categorization of an article as pseudoscience and/or quackery, and does this article meet them?
2. Should we include the quackery-related reference from quackwatch.com that was discussed here?
3. I think we should explain what the NZT meant by saying "The Omura materials were not helpful" while still equating BDORT with PMRT.
4. I think we should carefully go over every source Richard has produced, and decide whether/how to use it

I'll add more items if I think of any. Crum375 02:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Dots

I would suggest it might be helpful if Dots worked within this context rather than independently, which, it would seem to me is less than ideal. GenghizRat 20:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration request

The Actual Situation

The above would fool the beginner here but not those with any experience of you.

The following facts sum up the situation:

(1) Crum and GR have continuously reverted full consensus mediated agreements that they were fully party to.

2) They have denied (1) above repeatedly - until I showed them the archives where there words and agreements are documented. Then they try to weedle out of it.

3) Crum has continuously "resisted the mediation" in the words of the last Mediator, to the extent that the Mediator gave up. Crum shows no real intention to do anything totally unbiased or act in any kind of good faith way:

4) Crum has displayed a "continual lack of good faith" during the mediation process, in the words of the Mediator. He has in fact acted in continuous bad faith throughout.

5) Crum and GR have teamed up to out-revert me in order tomaintain (1-4) above and in so doing make a mockery of WP.

6) GR and Crum have serious memory problems in good faith - otherwise we have no option but to understand that they are just prepared to lie whenever it suits them.

7) I will be requesting Arbitration ASAP. Richardmalter 06:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If you feel that to be the appropriate course, I would suggest you do so. GenghizRat 06:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I have just reversed your reversion to your and the Anonymous Dots form, restoring the version as per the efforts of myself, Crum, and AR. I would once again ask you to refrain from personal attacks. If you feel you can make arguments in discussion to convince others of the merits of your positions, please do so. Alternatively, if seeking arbitration seems to you the most appropriate course, please do so. GenghizRat 06:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard: please do not quote me out of context or ascribe motives to me which I have not expressed. I closed the mediation because it was getting nowhere, as every possibly avenue was rejected by some disputant or other, not necessarily by Crum. Just because Crum was the last person with whom I was frustrated before I decided to close the case does not mean he was the only person with whom I was frustrated. I suggest that you allow me to recount what I said as I deem necessary, because the last thing I want is comments I made in a good faith but ultimately frustrating attempt to mediate turned into barbs devoid of context used against other editors. If you're going to fight, please do so with your own words, not with mine. - Che Nuevara 07:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Afterthought: please notify me on my talk page if an Arbitration case is opened. - Che 07:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks, again, for the effort. GenghizRat 07:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, Che, much appreciated. Crum375 12:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, because Crum and GR are prepared to act in such an underhand way, I have little choice but to use reliable neutral third party citations, such as your own, to describe their actions. I do not hold it against you one bit for giving up; but please realize that in actuality I have been left again after months of my efforts to resolve this through mediation, acting in good faith, 'against' two people who will lie if necessary or perhaps just have terribly bad memories is kinder to say about them - if they want to. Your comments are public record and I will recall them word for word in proper context. You said to Crum:

Truth is, it did find another consensus: we all agreed that we could start over and build from the ground up. And we all agreed to stop revert warring. Retracting those comments now does not mean that this consensus was not reached. I find this and similar reverts to be in extremely bad faith

Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith

You are now the one being resistant to mediation. Richard has agreed to work on a rewrite. Any more accusations that "conflict of interest" is holding up this mediation are completely devoid of merit. Either you're willing to work on this in the way that two independent editors suggested, or you aren't. It's very simple. Yes or no

You never said to me that I was acting in bad faith, nor that I was blocking progress - because I was not, I agreed with and stated so about just about everything you proposed, if not everything, be it both procedural and content. Crum blocked this all the way and stretched every reasonable effort by you to ridiculous, underhand lengths. Above on this page you will find that he tried to lie his way out of his agreements in the previous round of mediation - until I pinned him down about it and then he still tried to weedle his way out of it by calling them "minor technicalities" - which were in fact usages of citations (hardy minor technicalities as this is exactly what he continually blocked your efforts by arguing ad infinitum over to the point of you giving up). Your words form third party reliable statements as part of this record. I will certainly notify you re Arbitration. Do you suggest this is the best way to go?Richardmalter 13:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, my afterthought, I am guessing you know this, but what they really want, especially Crum, is to keep this completely WP unacceptable version up as long as they can and protract and discussion ad infinitum - that way Crum considers that he is 'winning'. He wont admit it but that is the reality - that is why he would not leave a stub. Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade and accept that someone has no good faith whatsoever. Richardmalter 13:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I will assume that despite all the harsh words you have for me, which you have repeated many times here and on Che's Talk page, somewhere underneath the critical rhetoric you do understand that all I want is what's good for WP, and that deep inside you still trust my integrity and honesty (although you may not externally admit it). Even if I am wrong, and your lack of trust goes all the way down to your core, it may still be worth your while to listen.

As I see it, you have 2 choices. You can continue to work on the Talk page with the three of us who support the current version (GR, AR and myself), and any others who may join us, to try to make it better. As you may note, all three of us have listed issues that we think need work, and this includes Che's list also. You are more than welcome to participate with us here on the Talk page, by providing your personal perspective of BDORT. If you do choose this option, I would appreciate if you refrain from editing the article directly, as you clearly have a conflict of interest, per your web page, with your name being listed alongside Omura's and others on some public documents. We will pay careful attention to all your comments and will ensure that anything that meets WP's requirements will be properly reflected in the article.

Alternatively, you can file for Arbitration. This is purely your choice, and you are free to do so at any time.

Thanks, Crum375 14:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I will repeat myself (hopefully) clearly: I closed the mediation because all paths I could conceive of were thwarted in some way or another. There were times in this mediation, both in the archives and in the period that I worked, when everyone acted in a less than exemplary fashion. I tried my best throughout the entire mediation to refrain from commenting on these incidents because I believed it served the interests of neutrality. By the bitter end I was nearly to the point of losing my religion and called Crum out on behavior which I found frustrating. But the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I stand by my claim that my comments stand on the page in context. If you believe what you are saying of Crum, then you can support that with your own words, and it should suffice. I once again respectfully request that you leave my words to express my opinion, not yours. As far as Arbitration goes, I cannot and will not give advice on whether and how to file the case, as it would compromise my position in the process. Thank you for your understanding. - Che Nuevara 17:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I think everyone here understands your frustration. Indeed, from our varying perspectives, I believe we've all shared it. As I've said, my comprehension of this situation is very straightforward: There are sincerely held opposed perceptions both as to reality and as to what is appropriate for this entry per Misplaced Pages criteria. I respectfully suggest you consider your course and make your decision as to whether or not in fact you wish to pursue arbitration. GenghizRat 20:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The point is GR, that you don't even have the good faith and will to start from a stub that many people said is obviously the sensible way to go. I have explained above why Crum will not agree to this. You also both do not keep to agreements. I will not bother repeating more than this. You and Crum are unique in that documented mediated consensus decisions - you pretend did not happen and revert. You wont keep to your agreements. You are trying to 'liberalize' and be 'objective' and hide the hard facts. Did you or did you not participate in mediation that resulted in the words "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"? When you have the decency to keep your agreements, and Crum too, then I will start to listen, not before. Crum, I have no faith in you whatsoever regarding this entry, your behavior as I have documented it is the reason. I have told both of you that you must have serious memory problems or that you are liars. It is documented above - Crum tried to say that he agreed to nothing "whatsoever" until I forced him to admitt it. You GR are much the same. Richardmalter 21:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I indicated, my perception is that there are markedly different perceptions as to the underlying realities and Misplaced Pages processes. I am perfectly content to stand on the record. I would appreciate it if you would desist from personal attacks. I would again respectfully suggest that you either offer arguments and evidence in an attempt to convince others to your positions or, alternatively, seek arbitration or similar appropriate mechanism. GenghizRat 21:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

GR, I consider lying a personal attack. I ask you to desist from it immediately. The point is GR, you perception may be whatever you dream it is, but that you don't even have the good faith and will to start from a stub that many people said is obviously the sensible way to go. I have explained above why Crum will not agree to this. You also both do not keep to agreements. I will not bother repeating more than this. You and Crum are unique here in that documented mediated consensus decisions - you pretend did not happen and revert. You wont keep to your agreements. You are trying to 'liberalize' and be 'objective' and say 'everyone is frustrated etc' and hide the hard facts. Did you or did you not participate in mediation that resulted in the words "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"?? The answer is you did. When you have the decency to keep your agreements, and Crum too, then I will start to listen, not before. Crum, I have no faith in you whatsoever regarding this entry, your behavior as I have documented it is the reason. You would make a politician worthy of the worst of them. I have told both of you that you must have serious memory problems or that you are liars. This is not opinion, it is documented above - Crum tried to say that he agreed to nothing "whatsoever" until I forced him to admit it. You GR are much the same. I hope that is clear. Richardmalter 21:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Another afterthought GR. You once asked me to keep your real identity private. In good faith I have as I said I would. You have not returned my good faith. When you keep your agreements, I will know that you have decided to - not before. I will only judge by actions not by any words that you will write here.Richardmalter 21:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I take it then you are now making real world threats against other editors? GenghizRat 21:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As usual GR your 'perceptions' differ widely from reality.Richardmalter 21:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm content, as I've indicated, to let others judge by the record. I would ask you to state explicitly, then, that you intend no such attempt, if you would be so kind. GenghizRat 21:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

A Test of Honesty for Crum375 and GenghizRat

Crum375, Did you or did you not participate voluntarily in mediation that resulted in a discussion that ended in the words that you did not contest: "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"??

GenghizRat AKA all the other handles you have used, Did you or did you not participate voluntarily in mediation that resulted in a discussion that ended in the words that you did not contest: "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"??

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Yoshiaki_Omura/MediationArchive_1

Answer just 'yes' or 'no'. Richardmalter 21:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I would once again ask you to desist from attacks and threats. I have previously indicated a significant part of my motive in periodically changing handles was precisely conern over this issue. I raised it early in moderation as a concern. I have never overlapped use of handles, and admins can easily track my contributions as I have never changed my actual IP. My concern is precisely the reason why Misplaced Pages offers contributors the option of handles. I must insist you desist from personal attacks and threats. GenghizRat 21:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

GR, first, you did not answer the Test of Honesty. Will you not? Second I make or made no attacks or threats. You have a fantastic imagination. Now, the Test of Honesty still stands.Richardmalter 21:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The record speaks for itself on all counts, in my judgement. GenghizRat 21:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, as I assume I am not under interrogation, and you are not my interrogator, I think you'd allow me more than just a 'yes' or 'no'. On the assumption that you do, let me continue. I searched the archives for your quote above, and found it in 2 cases.

One had to do with the 'Quackery' categorization. You know my general opinion about that issue, which has not changed much from day one. I also included it as a question in my list of issues that need clarification above. Also, since that time when that discussion was held, we found and discussed a new source, so that specific discussion is obsolete due to new evidence.

The second place I found the quote was in the Lu discussion. What happened there was that a link that was negative to Omura 'mysteriously' disappeared (became non-functional) after it was used a reference here. My only agreement in that case was that we can't use dead links (although I understand there is some proposal now to allow the use of cached links, probably irrelevant in this case).

In both cases above, I don't see any contradiction between my position then and today, although some new material was discovered since and may require further discussion. I don't know if this makes me pass or fail your 'honesty test', but it is my honest attempt to reply. Crum375 21:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Crum you fail. We discussed:

reference in the article, Quackwatch characterization of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test or 'Omura Test' en passant.

Nothing since then has changed this consensus. Do you dispute that the consensus for use of this citation for this purpose has remained unchanged and never been challenged?Richardmalter 02:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, regarding that issue, I agreed that the reference needs to be changed to a different sub-page in the same Quackwatch site, which will show that BDORT is considered as Quackery by that specific reference. When we get to actually edit the version then we can make that minor change. I also have other outstanding items on my todo list above. I have not changed my mind about this, if this is your point. Crum375 02:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful, Richard, if you offered argument and evidence. It seems to me there is clearly a sincere difference on the part of all parties as to matters of interpretation. GenghizRat 02:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Crum, as Che the last mediator said of you Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith. You have just restated that as it is unacceptable as is - we still have consensus; then why don't you take it out. Without even a beginning of good faith from you are not taken seriously. Arbitration will follow as soon as I get a minute to register it.Richardmalter 03:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I have refrained from making any edit myself to the article (besides selecting other people's versions) in a very long time - maybe months. I do intend to start making some edits myself at some point, once we agree on a working mode. Right now, I don't know yet how we plan to proceed, and I guess we are waiting for you to decide if you'd like to be working with us on this Talk page, going thru all our outstanding items in our combined lists, and maybe adding your own, or not, per my offer to you above. If you are starting ArbCom, then we need to work on the ArbCom case. It's your call. Crum375 03:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

To repeat Che's words to you: the neutral Mediator that you wore down:

Truth is, it did find another consensus: we all agreed that we could start over and build from the ground up. And we all agreed to stop revert warring. Retracting those comments now does not mean that this consensus was not reached. I find this and similar reverts to be in extremely bad faith

Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith

You are now the one being resistant to mediation. Richard has agreed to work on a rewrite. Any more accusations that "conflict of interest" is holding up this mediation are completely devoid of merit. Either you're willing to work on this in the way that two independent editors suggested, or you aren't. It's very simple. Yes or no

His comments stand. He was the Mediator. He said the above. He knew what he was saying.Richardmalter 03:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The Mediator, Che, also said that you were misrepresenting the community consensus. He gave you the benefit of the doubt about it; I dont.Richardmalter 03:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful, Richard, if you let us know whether you intend to press on for Arbitration, so that we may prepare to present the matter properly, or if you prefer to continue here. If you would prefer to continue here, I would again ask that you advance arguments and evidence for your positions. GenghizRat 03:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, despite all your derogatory/defamatory comments towards me, I harbor no ill feelings towards you, as I suspect you are just frustrated. I do want you to participate with us productively, as I offered above. But to do so you will need to start focusing on the subject at hand, BDORT, and not on Crum-bashing. I think you've made your points, Che responded to them, I responded to them, and now it's time to move forward. Thanks, Crum375 03:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It's an intrinsically difficult situation. The question, I agree, is how best to proceed. GenghizRat 03:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have said nothing derogatory; whereas you have about me and others many times. You avoid the point of discussion repeatedly in a clever sounding way which pulls wool over no one's eyes; just like you did repeatedly with Che. You refuse to keep to mediated consensus agreements. (GR does not even try to defend himself). How do you expect progress to be made' I cannot take you or your good faith seriously. As Che said

Truth is, it did find another consensus: we all agreed that we could start over and build from the ground up. And we all agreed to stop revert warring. Retracting those comments now does not mean that this consensus was not reached. I find this and similar reverts to be in extremely bad faith

Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith

You are now the one being resistant to mediation. Richard has agreed to work on a rewrite. Any more accusations that "conflict of interest" is holding up this mediation are completely devoid of merit. Either you're willing to work on this in the way that two independent editors suggested, or you aren't. It's very simple. Yes or noRichardmalter 03:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, while he can clearly speak for himself, he may or may not be actively monitoring this strand at present – I think Che was quite clear a short time ago, Richard, that he felt you ought not represent his opinions sans context in this space, but allow him to speak for himself. Perhaps I misunderstood, but that was my reading, and, frankly given the hell he went through attempting to mediate, for which I think we all bear a share of responsbility, I think that wish ought be respected. GenghizRat 03:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Summing up Crum's position

IT IS A FACT AGAIN DOCUMENTED JUST ABOVE THAT YOU (and GR) REVERT AND MAINTAIN A REVERSION OF MEDIATED CONSENSUS AGREEMENTS THAT YOU WERE FULLY PART OF. THIS IS BREACH OF PROCESS IN ANY KIND OF GOOD FAITH Richardmalter 03:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, please stay off the caps, I understand you are frustrated. I suggest you take some time and decide your best course of action. If you do want to work with us here on the Talk page to try to improve the article, the door is always open, as I mentioned above. Thanks, Crum375 03:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, you indicated above that I am avoiding responding to your 'charge.' I'm not avoiding it. This ground has been covered a thousand times. I simply don't feel it appropriate to respond to your demands. If you wish to see my thoughts, simply revisit the record. GenghizRat 03:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I respectfully suggest the same. This has been a trying process for all parties involved, and it might be best to take a bit, get a bit of perspective, and simply decide on a course of action as seems to you appropriate. GenghizRat 03:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, please keep to agreements. If you do want to work here in a way that is appropriate to good faith then please do. Until you do: IT IS A FACT AGAIN DOCUMENTED JUST ABOVE THAT YOU (and GR) REVERT AND MAINTAIN A REVERSION OF MEDIATED CONSENSUS AGREEMENTS THAT YOU WERE FULLY PART OF. THIS IS BREACH OF PROCESS IN ANY KIND OF GOOD FAITH

I respectfully request that you keep to agreements. I am simply making sure that you actions are well documented.Richardmalter 03:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, all our words and actions are automatically recorded on WP - you don't need to shout in caps to make them 'stick'. Again, please take some time to decide what you want. If you want to work here on the Talk page with us as I offered above, please let us know. If you want to file for Arbitration, that's your choice. But please take your time and decide what you want, just posting capped messages is counter-productive. Crum375 04:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Summing up GR's position objectively

IT IS A FACT AGAIN DOCUMENTED JUST ABOVE THAT GR (AKA all the other handles he has used) REVERTS AND MAINTAINS A REVERSION OF MEDIATED CONSENSUS AGREEMENTS THAT HE WAS FULLY PART OF. THIS IS BREACH OF PROCESS IN ANY KIND OF GOOD FAITH Richardmalter 03:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I would again ask that you refrain from personal attacks and either move for arbitration or advance an argument and evidence for any proposed changes in the entry. GenghizRat 03:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I make no attack whatsoever. I document facts. 'Getting offended' is a poor way to avoid the question and a well known strategy to avoid facing up to your lack of faith; keeping to agreements would do you much more credit; - again your perceptions are fantasies; are you a poet?Richardmalter 04:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, Richard, you've indicated quite clearly that you're a practitioner in this area. Perhaps this is inappropriate on my part and out of bounds, so feel free to rebuke me if I'm wrong to pose the question, but why not simply put together a demonstration or experiment for outside review and scrutiny per Misplaced Pages criteria as to verifiability and settle the matter? Alternatively, you indicated a fairly brief time ago that you had flown to New York to attend Dr Omura's Symposium. Were there any papers presented there or referred to in discussion that you might offer for consideration? GenghizRat 04:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

A long time ago you asked me this; look up the answer. However there would not be much point if you and Crum were involved - since you do not keep agreements anyway. There is no point. When you show some good faith by keeping agreements and not showing continued lack of good faith and resist mediation - as the last Mediator, Che told Crum, we will have a procedural base. Richardmalter 04:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought you might have since become willing to present BDORT or some of Omura's other practices and procedures to outside scrutiny, or that someone else might have done so, and you might have learned of it while attending Omura's New York Seminar.

Do you mean to indicate, then, from your comment above, that you are unwilling to offer argument and evidence for your positions? GenghizRat 04:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No, it would indicate my advice to you that you would be foolish to proceed with anyone who did not keep their agreements. Richardmalter 05:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Notability

Another aspect of the dilemma here may be the marginal notability of this entry. I had previously nominated the entry for deletion on that basis, and the consensus went against me. Simply to repeat the point, for whatever it's worth, not to reargue it, it seems to me that the only clear basis for notability per Misplaced Pages criteria is the New Zealand Tribunal. All other sources are, at least to my eye, dubious at best as to acceptability. Hence, I think, part of the reason for this maelstrom. GenghizRat 21:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the voluminous discussion during the last AfD addressed these issues in excruciating detail. The consensus, after cutting down a small virtual forest, was that the combined Omura/BDORT was/is notable, though it requires further work. It's our job here to keep improving it. Crum375 22:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It has always been my belief that the NZ tribunal source is the only significant source that can be considered reliable for WP:V. Without it, we don't have anything to base the article on. --Philosophus 03:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. GenghizRat 16:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

As I say, I'm not attempting to reargue the issue. I'm aware we had opposite perspectives in that debate. I accept that it was settled as notable. I mean, though, to flag, once again, that I think a core dilemma with the intractability of this entry to date stems from the paucity of sources acceptable per Misplaced Pages criteria. GenghizRat 22:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Comparing it to many articles I have worked on and typical WP articles in general, the current version is actually fairly reasonably sourced. I do agree, as I have noted many times here, that the NZT reference is the most important and reliable source for this article, around which all the rest revolves. Crum375 22:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Point taken. GenghizRat 22:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration

Has been requested because:

(1) Crum and GR have continuously reverted full consensus mediated agreements that they were fully party to.

2) They have denied (1) above repeatedly - until I showed them the archives where there words and agreements are documented. But still they avoid their agreements.

3) Crum has continuously "resisted mediation" in the words of the last Mediator, Che, to the extent that the Mediator gave up. Crum shows no real intention to do anything totally unbiased or act in any kind of good faith way:

4) Crum has displayed a "continual lack of good faith" during the mediation process, in the words of the Mediator. He has in fact acted in continuous bad faith throughout.

5) Crum and GR have teamed up to out-revert me in order to maintain (1-4) above and in so doing make a mockery of WP.

Perhaps I'm in procedural error here, Richard, but I believe you ought now make your points in arbitration rather than here. GenghizRat 05:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Lets just keep the record straight here for future reference.Richardmalter 05:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe you've made your position clear, Richard. I suggest you make your arguments, and offer evidence. GenghizRat 05:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

3RR

Richard, as noted here on your discussion page I believe you are again in violation of 3RR, having made by my count 4 reverts within the last 24 hours under both your user name and anon IP. If my understanding is correct, I would respectfully suggest you restore the previous version of the entry as a minimal sign of willingness to abide by Misplaced Pages rules and processes. If I am in some way in error, please feel free to correct me. GenghizRat 08:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I regret that as you've taken no action to self-revert, I've reported you as once again in willful violation. GenghizRat 09:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I would once again suggest...

I would again suggest, Richard, that you simply attempt to make your case, offer your arguments and evidence, in an attempt to persuade others, either here or in Arbitration, rather than apparently insisting on your 'right' to violate the rules and processes of the community because you find yourself in disagreement with others. GenghizRat 09:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Combined list of open questions

Here's an attempt to group and summarize the 'issues for discussion' listed above. If this doesn't seem accurate, edits are welcome:

1. Notability:
   1. Are both Omura and BDORT reliable topics by themselves? This is important because it has a bearing on...
   2. Should medical techniques used by practitioners who draw from Omura's work be discussed, and if so in how much depth?
2. Reliable sources:
   1. How judge reliability of new age/non-established science? Specifically, who can be considered an expert and can the notability of the 'expert' be judged? (Shinnick citation)
   2. Should an editor's personal knowledge or experience with the subject give their opinion more weight than other editors?
   3. Should a lack of sources be mentioned? Specifically, a relative lack of research on the BDORT procedure.
3. Can term BDORT pseudoscience?
   1. Should this be a member of Category:Pseudoscience and should the Quackwatch website citation be mentioned?

(list started by Antonrojo 02:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC))

Related discussion

1. Notability

In the deletion debate, as I recall and understand it, the consensus (limited, in a sense, as there was limited participation) was that Omura/BDORT is notable per appropriate sources on the basis of the New Zealand Tribunal. This raised the peculiar dilemma that proponents who argue that the NZT is not itself applicable to Omura/BDORT then seem to argue that Omura/BDORT are independently notable, but, by my understanding, they are not, as there seem essentially no sources available other than those of Omura and a seemingly small number of echoes of Omura's sources in generally unknown or very little known 'alternative medicine' journals. GenghizRat 16:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

2. Reliable Sources

Regarding the question about personal knowledge of the subject, I think that edits should stand on their own merits, whoever makes them. On the positive side, experts on a subject may have a better ability to find good cites and to make convincing arguments. On the other hand, an editor who is very close to a subject may also be emotionally or economically invested in it. One extreme case is WP:AUTO. I think that expertise and potential bias should be essentially ignored. And of course any undocumented knowledge editors have picked up though personal experience is WP:OR.

As to personal knowledge, I agree that it may be useful, of course, but that it's extremely important that edits stand of their own per appropriate sourcing, and with appropriate language which attempts to accurately characterize the information available in the source. Such sourcing and language inevitably reflect 'personal knowledge' if only in the sense that an editor, even one otherwise without personal knowledge, brings her or his personal knowledge to bear in forming their understanding. Personal knowledge, however, must not serve as an 'argument from authority' as to the validity of any source or the language appropriate to its presentation. These must rest on argument and evidence offered, in my judgement, not on any 'personal knowledge.' GenghizRat 16:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, I'm of the opinion that a lack of research on a subject should not be mentioned often if at all. I think it is better to attribute doubt about and claims to the scientific merits of something than to give disclaimers about a lack of research. For example, I'm thinking of statements like "Omura says that this technology can cure many diseases. XYZ Medical Board published a report stating that 'there is no way that it could do that'". This section from the Holocaust denial article looks like it might be a good model. Antonrojo 03:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the dilemma here is that we seem to have a multiplicity of assertions and claims, all of which seem to find sourcing only either directly on Omura's US or Japanese web sites, or in his own Journal, whereas, with the sole exception of the New Zealand Tribunal, no one has been able to find an acceptable verifiable source which addresses his assertions and claims. I don't claim to have any perfect solution for this dilemma, and perhaps no solution at all. I'm simply saying this is the dilemma as to presentation as I understand it. GenghizRat 16:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

3. Pseudoscience?

Here the question as I understand it is what constitutes appropriate latitude within NPOV as to the characterization of a source. One argument is that if claims are presented as to scientific validity with no evidence of their having been subject to standard methods of independent scientific evaluation, then they are perforce pseudoscience. One might refer to this as the 'if it walks like a duck...' argument. On the other hand, the argument has been made that unless an appropriate source explicitly uses the term 'pseudoscience' the term may not be employed because it is a pejorative and the use of a pejorative violates NPOV. GenghizRat 16:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Patient death due to reliance on BDORT per Quackwatch

According to http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/gorringe.html, Gorringe caused a patient to die by relying on BDORT in lieu of conventional diagnosis:

Most of these conditions were diagnosed with BDORT and "treated" with homeopathic products. Noting that the Smith had reported blood in his bowel movements and abdominal symptoms over a 3-year period, the tribunal concluded that Gorringe had negligently failed to perform adequate diagnostic investigations and that by the time the another physician diagnosed the cancer it had spread too far to be treatable. Smith died six months later.

Should this be included in the article? Crum375 02:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, it is boring, and I have outlined your biases. But the fact is the Tribunial recognized that what Gorringe actually did was not BDORT. As you said previously, they just ruled on PMRT generically. Is quckwatch a reliable site to overide the Tribunial's own words, no. Your bias distorts things as usual.Richardmalter 04:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I fail to grasp your argument, Richard, as I have in the past. If the Tribunal supposedly drew a distinction between Gorringe and BDORT how do you explain these quotes from its official Findings:

Testimony used by tribunals in their decision Several doctors provided testimony at the MPDT tribunal: ‘In summary, I find the descriptions of the AK methods and in particular the BDORT test to be inconsistent with known physical principles. Even if it were possible to produce a “field” with these methods, AK methods (and BDORTing) have not been shown to produce an electrical field which is required to alter the electrical activation of nerve and muscle. A limited survey of the literature shows that the AK testing results are unreliable – and this idea is apparently supported by some organisations that support complementary medicine. I find it deeply disturbing that the only people who seem to claim reliable diagnostic results are those who make a living from applying it and some controlled scientific tests reveal no validity to these claims.’ – Professor Mark Bryden Cannell, Expert Witness called by the Tribunal, with whose testimony it concurred – Tribunal Findings, Paragraph 306 ‘BDORT is operator dependent, meaning that what actually happens is that the operator diagnoses whatever it is that he believes in. One cannot scientifically evaluate “belief”. In the context of testing, then, it would be impossible to challenge the practitioner’s belief in his apparatus. – John Charles Welch, MD, Expert Witness called by the Tribunal, with whose testimony it concurred – Tribunal Findings, Paragraph 314 ‘I think the big problem with the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test is the fact that it’s not been properly tested to make sure that the results are reproducible. As Professor Cannell alluded to in his evidence, the key thing about science is a naive observer anywhere in the world should be able to reproduce the results using the same apparatus.” – John Charles Welch, MD, Expert Witness called by the Tribunal, with whose testimony it concurred – Tribunal Findings, Paragraph 316 Note: The Tribunal specifically equates BDORT’s claims of scientific validity with those of Applied Kinesiology and Gorringe’s personally preferred terminology of PMRT. Cf Paragraphs 100, 280, 290, 297, 305, 306, et alia GenghizRat 04:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Forgive the hasty copy-paste, but you're certainly familiar with this from the entry, yet you seem to keep denying the NZT conflated BDORT. How do you reach that interpretation? GenghizRat 04:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Quackwatch characterization of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test or 'Omura Test' en passant

• Peer review requests not specifying archive
• Redirect-Class Japan-related pages
• Low-importance Japan-related articles
• WikiProject Japan articles
• Redirect-Class biography pages
• Biography articles without infoboxes