Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

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Q: Why does the first sentence of the article say the Protocols is fraudulent? Aren't Misplaced Pages articles supposed to be neutral?

A: Misplaced Pages articles are absolutely required to maintain a neutral point of view. It has long been established that this work is fraudulent; its author(s) plagiarized a work of fiction, changing the original, Gentile characters into the secret leaders of a Jewish conspiracy. That plagiarized, fictional material is presented as though it were fact. That constitutes a literary fraud.

Q: So Misplaced Pages is saying that there was not a secret Jewish conspiracy to rule the world?

A: That is an entirely separate issue from the established fact that the Protocols is fraudulent.

Q: Why not let the reader decide for him- or herself whether the document is fraudulent or not? Doesn't drawing conclusions constitute WP:OR?

A: The article does not draw any conclusions; journalists drew the conclusion in 1921, and numerous scholars have reaffirmed it since then. It is not original research to state that the the Protocols is fraudulent; it is a well-established scholarly fact, as documented and sourced in the article. Numerous similar examples exist throughout Misplaced Pages; for example, the Hitler diaries are demonstrably fake, and the WP article says so—and sources it.

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A: It is difficult to answer why anyone still believes that the Protocols is a real document, other than to say that some people have beliefs that are simply immune to facts (Exhibit A: Holocaust deniers). To those whose minds are made up, it makes no difference that the Protocols have been debunked countless times—or that so much incriminating Holocaust evidence survives that a dozen museums can't hold it all.

Q: But you can't disprove the contention that a bunch of Jews got together sometime in the mid-19th century and plotted a conspiracy, can you?

A: As already stated, the conspiracy issue is not relevant to this article. But to answer your question, if one was told that the Moon is a giant ball of Gouda cheese covered with a foot-thick layer of dirt, it would be their responsibility to prove them.

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Comparison in introduction

The introduction includes a comparison by Stephen Bronner. Is it really relevant to single out one opinion in the introduction, especially the rather random comparison? The intro already describes the significance of this document "It remains widely available in numerous languages, in print and on the Internet, and continues to be presented by neofascist, fundamentalist and antisemitic groups as a genuine document.", adding the quote of Bronner seems just arbitrary. Maybe keep the "probably the most influential work of antisemitism ever written"-quote, but at least the comparison to another book adds no information and just possible controversy to the intro. --2001:A62:41C:5901:3972:8B4:72C2:739F (talk) 14:35, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I took out a sentence cited to Bronner. I discussed it before on this page (see the section "part of the intro is not good"). Zero 04:22, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Those 500,000 copies

Some myths just won't go away, largely because they appear in "reliable sources". An example is "Henry Ford funded printing of 500,000 copies that were distributed throughout the United States in the 1920s." Now we have a new source Boyle, Arc of Justice that says "Determined to explain moral decline, he latched onto The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, .... By the summer of 1921, the automaker had already mass-produced some half million copies." Wondering exactly what this means, and why Boyle doesn't mention the Dearborn Independent here, we turn to Boyle's source: Nevins and Hill, Ford, Expansion and Challenge, 1915–1933 (1957). There we find the origin of the 500,000 (p316): "The articles probably had little effect in stimulating the circulation of the Dearborn Independent. That circulation grew during 1922 to almost 270,000 paid copies, and in the middle of 1923 stood at 472,500, but the growth was based on semi-compulsory buying by branches, agencies, and dealers." So the 500,000 is about the Dearborn Independent, not about a separate publication. This inaccuracy is connected to another: the claim that the Dearborn Independent serialised the Protocols. Actually, the DI (which I have read) published a long series of original articles that quote paragraphs from the Protocols in support, but it never published the Protocols as one text from start to finish, together or in sections. I gave fine sources in Archive 10 of this page. A missing part of the puzzle concerns The International Jew, which was a compilation of articles from the Dearborn Independent published as a booklet. Like the magazine, it wasn't a copy of the Protocols but an original rant peppered with quotations from the Protocols. What was its circulation? I believe that "half a million" is a mistake caused by confusion with the magazine. Zero 04:36, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Seconded, strongly. It is essential for a page like this not to perpetuate inaccurate details and exaggerated numbers just because they've been promulgated for a long time. The publication history of these "protocols" is an essential part of their history. Forelyn (talk) 09:27, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2020

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I would like to add a section under the Germany tab, discussing Nazi propaganda and the introduction to the Protocols found in the Nazi mass production of the Protocols. This is the section:

Hitler and the Nazis produced many pieces of propaganda in Nazi Germany in an attempt to convince people that their world view was correct, and that Jewish people did not belong in Germany. Many different stereotypes and lies about Jewish people that were perpetuated in the Protocols, such as Jewish people having a plan for world domination, were also found in the Nazi propaganda. While it is highly unlikely that Hitler believed that the Protocols was a real book, he used it to his advantage to promote his antisemitic agenda. At least 23 editions of the Protocols were created and distributed between 1919 and 1939, and were mass produced when the Nazis were in power. When Hitler was elected Chancellor in 1933, schools began to use the Protocols to indoctrinate the children in Germany, which caused them to have a large influence on how German citizens viewed Jewish people. Hitler and the Nazis knew that promoting the belief that an international Jewish organization was planning to take over the world further instilled an irrational fear of Jewish people, which would make it easier to push their antisemitic beliefs on Germans and carry out antisemitic legislation.

The Nazis produced a specific Nazi edition of the Protocols, Die Geheimnisse der Weisen von Zion, 22nd edition (Munich: Eher Verlag, 1938), in which they wrote an introduction to preface the actual Protocols. The introduction serves to give false credibility to the book, push clear antisemitic beliefs onto people, and set them up to begin carrying out legislation and persecution against the Jewish people in Germany. First, the introduction works to establish credibility to the book by saying that there is evidence that this work was created in Russia. They justified this claim and said that it was a logical thought because the “scholarly work must be conducted in the archives of a country in which Jewry has absolute control”. The introduction also claims that in addition to the agenda from the meetings that the Protocols referenced, they also had a desire to create propaganda and spread it with an end goal of the National Socialist Germany collapsing. In another attempt to establish credibility, the Nazis claimed that there is a lot of incriminating evidence in the Protocols, which suggests that the content in the book is true.

The introduction also serves to perpetuate antisemitic attitudes and beliefs that were already common among society to give the Protocols further credit and claim the existence of Jewish propaganda. In addition to the stereotype of the plan for world domination, the Nazi introduction also states that releasing the Protocols have made people aware of the “corrupting character of Jewish thought and action.” The introduction discussed the court case about whether or not the Protocols are forged or not, and the Nazis stated that even if they were forged, it is not up to the court to decide, and that there is still some truth in the concept of Jewish people seeking world domination. The fact that the Protocols were on trial in the first place is a part of Jewish propaganda, according to the introduction, but “its outcome not only reduced the suspicion that the Protocols was a forged and immoral document, but also made clear that the origin of the Protocols was not a matter to be determined by a court, but rather by historical scholarship.” Ultimately, it is clear to see that the Nazis’ logic was very flawed, and that they wanted people to believe that Jewish people were actually attempting to take over the world so that fear would be instilled in the German people. The goal of the Nazis in mass publishing the Protocols with their introduction at the beginning was so that they would be justified in discriminating towards the Jews in their law and policies and the German people would be accepting of these actions. Even though it was proven that the Protocols were completely forged by Russians, the introduction denounced the facts and blamed the corruption of Jewish people to say that the Protocols was a real book.

United States Holocaust Museum, Washington, DC, “Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” accessed December 6, 2020, https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion.

Bytwerk, Randall. “Introduction to 1938 Nazi Edition of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.” Introduction to the Nazi Edition of the Protocols of Zion, 2012. https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/protocols.htm. Haylielackey (talk) 23:32, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

You'll need specific in-line references to back up each major assertion, not just broad references, for three substantial paragraphs of statements composed in Misplaced Pages's voice, and you'll need to show how they might fit into the existing article. Acroterion (talk) 00:29, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@Haylielackey: I've set this to answered for now, due to Acroterion's concerns above. Please address these before resubmitting your edit request. Seagull123 Φ 16:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Also, if you need any help with this, see Help:Referencing for beginners and/or Help:Referencing for beginners with citation templates. Seagull123 Φ 16:41, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Availability?

There is a line under the final heading, "contemporary conspiracy theories", that reads as follows: ``The Protocols continue to be widely available around the world, particularly on the Internet, as well as in print in Japan, the Middle East, Asia, and South America.`` Isn't this misleading? The book is widely available worldwide. The phrasing of this sentence can lead the reader to infer that the book is not widely sold in North America or Africa; which either implies that North Americans and Africans are less open to believing that the protocols are genuine, or conversely, that for some reason not mentioned, the peoples of Asia, Europe, and South America are more inclined to bleieve that the screed is real; a statement that is not only unsupported by the sources listed, but unfair. 2603:8000:342:3400:A1A2:3DA3:78:E1E0 (talk) 05:44, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

The implication is that it is more popular in those countries. While that may be true, I would like to see a source that says that. TFD (talk) 06:06, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm taking it out. I doubt if there is any way to make statements like that reliably. Incidentally, some major American book sellers list it so why isn't the USA in the list? Zero 13:20, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Rebutting arguments of validity with an explanatory section

Although the nature of the forgery is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt there are still subsantial numbers of people who believe in the validity of certain arguments presented within the Protocols, regardless of their authenticity, and so it may be desirable to introduce a section for addressing the key arguments found within the Protocols to show that even the arguments themselves, independent of the overall document, lack merit.

This would go a long way to dispelling many of the ancilliary myths that have accumulated over the passage of a century. It would also flesh out the article more and provide a sound basis for further rebuttals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Engineer of Souls (talk • contribs) 05:17, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

However, rebuttal is not the purpose of this article. See WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Anyway, the Protocols don't really contain anything that can be glorified as "arguments". Zero 11:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Communist Manifesto

In the lead is "The political scientist Stephen Bronner described it as 'probably the most influential work of antisemitism ever written ... what the Communist Manifesto is for Marxism, the fictitious Protocols is for antisemitism'." I propose to remove the part after the ellipsis, which is patently ridiculous. Comparing Marx and Engels to the anonymous Protocols author is just embarrassing. Of course my emotions are not a reliable source, but I'll point out that just because something appears in a "reliable source" doesn't mean we are obliged to quote it. I'll go further and question the reliability of the source anyway. On the same page of Bronner's book he writes "It consists of the supposed minutes from twenty-four sessions of a congress held by representatives from the 'twelve tribes of Israel' and led by a Grand Rabbi, whose purpose was to plan the conquest of the world." Actually, the Protocols don't mention twelve tribes, any rabbis at all, or sessions of a congress. Those concepts do appear in the commentary of publishers and others like the Dearborn Independent, but not in the Protocols themselves. (I'm relying on the Marsden edition that is the main source of English versions.) Zero 02:13, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree that at least the post-ellipsis part should go. I'd be inclined to take out the whole sentence. --jpgordon 02:34, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

The point of the sentence is perfectly clear, it's straightforward analogy about the centrality of each book to their specific ideology. There's no possible way to confuse it as saying that the Protocols is central to Communism. Let's not write down to our readers. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:17, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

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