Talk:Mikis Theodorakis - Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Khirurg (talk | contribs) at 03:16, 8 June 2021 (→Antisemitic statements). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 03:16, 8 June 2021 by Khirurg (talk | contribs) (→Antisemitic statements)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mikis Theodorakis article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 2 months

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mikis Theodorakis article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 2 months

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Composers

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Composers, a group of editors writing and developing biographical articles about composers of all eras and styles. The project discussion page is the place to talk about technical and editorial issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!ComposersWikipedia:WikiProject ComposersTemplate:WikiProject ComposersComposers

Military history: Biography / Balkan / European / World War II / Cold War

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	Balkan military history task force (c. 500–present)
	European military history task force
	World War II task force
	Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989)

Classical music

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Politics Low‑importance

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Biography: Actors and Filmmakers / Musicians

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers (assessed as Mid-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Greece High‑importance

	Greece portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:Vital article

Antisemitic statements

I agree that if it were just covered once in the news once and quickly forgotten, then you could argue it was WP:UNDUE to mention. However, the reality is that Theodorakis' comments have been discussed in several books and academic papers about antisemitism, even years or decades after the fact. The following is just what I found in a quick Google Scholar search.

Gerstenfeld, Manfred (2005). "THE DEEP ROOTS OF ANTI-SEMITISM IN EUROPEAN SOCIETY". Jewish Political Studies Review. 17 (1/2): 3–46. ISSN 0792-335X.
Gur-Ze’ev, Ilan (2010). "The New Anti-Semitism—Toward Educational Challenges". The New Anti-Semitism—Toward Educational Challenges. Brill. ISBN 978-94-6091-272-6.
Rosenfeld, Alvin (2017-07-05). "Modern Jewish Intellectual Failure: A Brief History". The Jewish Divide Over Israel. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-315-13280-8.
Laqueur, Walter (2006). The Changing Face of Anti-Semitism: From Ancient Times to the Present Day. Oxford University Press. p. 9. ISBN 978-0-19-977473-9.
Katz, Steven T.; Bayme, Steven (2010). Continuity and Change: A Festschrift in Honor of Irving Greenberg's 75th Birthday. University Press of America. p. 263. ISBN 978-0-7618-5145-5.
Wistrich, Robert S. (2010). A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad. Random House Publishing Group. ISBN 978-1-58836-899-7.
Loizides, Neophytos (2020). "Doves and Hawks: Frames of Peace, Stalemates, and Crises". The Politics of Majority Nationalism. Stanford University Press. ISBN 978-0-8047-9633-0.
Droumpouki, Anna Maria (2016). "Shaping Holocaust memory in Greece: memorials and their public history". National Identities. 18 (2): 199–216. doi:10.1080/14608944.2015.1027760.

WP:BLP is not and has never been an excuse to whitewash negative information about the subject that has been extensively covered in reliable sources. When reverting it was claimed that the remarks were "taken out of context". That may be the opinion of some wikipedia editors, but not what WP:RS says. So I suggest the following content is restored:

In 2003, he stated, "Everything that happens today in the world has to do with the Zionists … American Jews are behind the world economic crisis that has hit Greece as well." He has described himself as "anti-Israel and anti-Semite," because "this small nation (Israel) is the root of evil".

(t · c) buidhe 06:59, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Since neither of the two editors who reverted bothered to reply here, I have posted to WP:NPOVN. If that doesn't work, I'll have to start a RfC. (t · c) buidhe 05:24, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

It's not so simple. The remarks are clearly taken out of context, and Theodorakis has repeatedly deplored the Holocaust, and apologized for those comments, yet you do not see it fit to include that in the article. Only the cherry-picked comments that seem to conform to a particular POV. Khirurg (talk) 05:40, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

My position to include is based on the many reliable sources that have discussed the comments in question, most of which have labeled them as antisemitic. Your opinion or mine is simply not relevant, unless there are reliable sources that back it up. (t · c) buidhe 05:46, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing. Starting with this , much more coming soon. Khirurg (talk) 05:52, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't believe that general-interest sources are particularly good sources on antisemitism, which is why I cited academic publications. Furthermore, if considered reliable, it's an additional source covering the issue so can only bolster the case for inclusion. If Theodorakis later stated that he does not consider himself an anti-Semite, that could be added to the article: "In a later interview, Theodorakis stated that he does not consider himself an anti-Semite". (t · c) buidhe 06:00, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

The only criterion for inclusion is whether a source meets WP:RS. Whether you believe it is "general interest" and not "particularly good" is not relevant. Khirurg (talk) 17:22, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Relevant. Still being covered in 2020 coverage of him like this piece about him at age 95 that has a whole section of "accused of antisemitism".VikingDrummer (talk) 10:04, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Since neither of the two editors who reverted bothered to reply here... Nope, inaccurate statement. This is a diachronic dispute which has flared-up many times before, as I have written in my edit-summary. My very extensive comments from the archives are included here: Regarding Mikis Theodorakis' Anti-Zionism and Accusations of anti-semitism section. As I have written in the archives, Mikis Theodorakis's extensive work creating cantatas supporting the Jewish victims of the Holocaust with poetry distinctly supporting the Jewish hero of the Mauthausen cantata, and denouncing those who perpetrated and supported the Holocaust, speaks to the fact of Mikis's pro-Jewish historical stance. Therefore, adding the anti-semitic comments should be balanced by Khirurg's clarifications at a minimum. Dr. K. 18:03, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

This revert is very odd. The DW source explicitly says "apology", and I've even included the inline quote. It is very strange that someone would think that this "failed verification". Khirurg (talk) 18:40, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough. I mentioned the following on the NPOV noticeboard: One of the sentences at issue is "He has described himself as "anti-Israel and anti-Semite," because "this small nation (Israel) is the root of evil"". I don’t have access to the source but from information provided on the noticeboard, this seems to be a synthesis of a remark made at press conference in 2003 and something he said in a TV interview in 2011. Can anyone confirm this? Burrobert (talk) 22:17, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

According to :

During a press conference in 2003, Theodorakis' criticism of Israeli policy reached a new level, as he said, "Today we can say that this little country is the root of evil, not of good, which means that too much self-righteousness and stubbornness are evil." In a 2011 television interview he even described himself as an "anti-Semite and anti-Zionist," adding that "American Jews" had been responsible for the global economic crisis that had hit Greece as well.

VikingDrummer (talk) 07:01, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

However the Droumpouki source, , has :

Anti-Semitism in Greece is today stronger than ever (Fleming, 2008, p. 205). In televised remarks, a Greek Orthodox bishop recently blamed the country’s financial problems on a conspiracy of Jewish bankers and claimed that the Holocaust was orchestrated by Zionists National Identities (Ta Nea, 15 January 2011). The famous composer Mikis Theodorakis reaffirmed the scapegoating of the Jews: ‘Everything that happens today in the world has to do with the Zionists … American Jews are behind the world economic crisis that has hit Greece as well.’ He also stated that he is ‘anti-Israel and anti-Semite,’ because ‘this small nation (Israel) is the root of evil’ (News conference, 4 November 2003)

. User:buidhe, I think dw.com is more precise with the dates than Droumpouki's article, even in Droumpouki it is evident that some of these comments have to do with 2008+ economic crisis, so not from 2003.VikingDrummer (talk) 07:08, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

That is odd. These sources say he called himself an anti-Semite both in a TV interview in 2011 and at a news conference on 4 November 2003. Burrobert (talk) 09:17, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

There was nothing in 2003. The economic crisis didn't occur until 2010. This actually calls into question the factual accuracy of Droumpouki and the process of peer-review it went through. Btw, I find the category "Antisemitism in Greece" to be grossly undues. A single off-color comment during a long and grueling interview by and 85 year old man with the Mauthausen Trilogy in his track record, for which he later apologized, is not even close enough to lump him literally in the same category as Golden Dawn. Khirurg (talk) 03:16, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Categories: