Talk:March Days - Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tengri (talk | contribs) at 11:46, 27 January 2007. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 11:46, 27 January 2007 by Tengri (talk | contribs)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Azerbaijan Unassessed

	Azerbaijan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Azerbaijan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Azerbaijan-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AzerbaijanWikipedia:WikiProject AzerbaijanTemplate:WikiProject AzerbaijanAzerbaijan
???	This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Armenia Unassessed

	March Days is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian
???	This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Factually disputed

You can not start an article based on one man work and suggest it is enough notable to have it's article. And you have simply copypasted the source of McCarthy from a nationalist site. I happen to have read all the books writen by Justin McCarthy, those figures he present are not his calculations neither his figure, he simply refers to Urguhart's figure of 8,000 to 12,000(see his footnote) who was so quick to press the British army out from the region and an eye over the oil fields in Baku, the British version of what the Chestler consession was for the Americans under Bristol. In fact, he mairly recycled Kazemzadeh's estimates, who ironically enought refers to the Armenian commission on 9,000 Armenians having been killed in Baku, which he justified by throwing numbers. Such high figures have NEVER been presented or documented other than the product of Kazemzadeh imagination trying to justify the 9,000 Armenians killed he report in his book. The Armenian massacre of fall 1918 is recorded in various works, the German General Paraquin present reports on what happened there and the plan set the eradicate the Armenian population once the Ottoman troops penetrate Baku. Frederick Lewis Schuman in his work provides the figure of 30,000 Armenians having been killed there as a result. I could write various articles just about this subject which is very well documented. Besides this, the commission reported by the British Consul Stevens doesn't present more than 2,000 Azeris victims in March, 1918. As for 3,000 Jews being killed in Guba by Armenians. Articles are written based on published data, not some poops from a psychotic who use terms like 'monster,' and this a leading figure of the Academia of science, he should learn statistics, he would be hard pressed to wipe himself off if it happens that someone having taken some high school math course realise that numbers don't add when one take into account the 6,000 immigrated Jews in Guba over a century prior to the supposed genocide in Question and the post-period population, this enought would discredit him to the core. What article will be next, The Massacre of Marsians by Armenians? Fad (ix) 23:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Fadix - a question, do you deny the massacre of Muslims by Bolsheviks and Allied Dashnaks that occured in March 1918, or you just dispute figures quoted? abdulnr 20:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I am not denying it, first March massacre isen't a proper Wikipedian name, second of, given that the massacre of Armenians in Baku is more notable in 1918, and that the number of victims was higher even according to the investigation initiated by Tartars there is no way that this article can be neutral when it is missing an entire section. German and Austrian records are abound of the massacres of Armenians and what happened when Nuri, Halil, and others have decided to take in command a Tartar army and organize it. As for Guba, there is no single record of Jews having been killed there by Armenians, the numbers don't add up, and it isen't recorded. Those figures are higher than the official investigation made public of the number of Muslims killed in Baku but yet there is not a single record about that. This is my first accounter with Baku87, but I hope this sort of contribution of his is not generalized. Fad (ix) 22:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Its written as Muslim but they mean Azeris as Azeris are the only major Muslim group in the Caucasian. Also this is not a one man view, if you want to deny this then fine, thats your opinion. This massacre is something that did happen and its definitly worth a article. Baku87 22:01, 15 May 2006 (UTC)Baku87

That range minima is still 3 times the one from the official investigation. And yes, it is one man view, such high figures are the product of Kazemzadeh imagination. One can not rely on a single source dismissing and ignoring the vast majority of estimates. Consider that the massacre of Armenians in Baku is much more notable and an estimated higher figure, yet, I don't think that alone it should have its entry but rather be part of one incorporating the Tartar-Armenian conflict on 1918-1919. Fad (ix) 22:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

the massacre of jews in guba recently came up in azerbaijan news and israeli ambassador stated that israel would help in the investigation~and georgia stated they will help to, offcourse this should also be noted in the article, a citation has been given in the article aswell Karabakh 09:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, a man that use terms like 'monster' can hardly be considered as reliable. I rely on published data's, yet there is no single work notable or else which ever refers to the massacre of 3000 Jews or less in Guba by Armenians. It isen't found in British records which report both Armenian and Azeris incidences in Baku and its seroundings. Also, this alleged claims from the Israeli ambassadors has yet to be confirmed in transcript letters to Israel or informations sent to Israel, pointing to a news source from a country that is on rather the bottom sides of freedom of press and a newspaper who often simply make up news is simply ridiculous. Besides, I could also claim that there has been a mass murder in my street and report it to the police and then make up a big fuss over news that they will investigate about it. Even the village idiot can report something and then from the noises it generate build an article in Misplaced Pages claiming that it will be investigated. Fad (ix) 00:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Verify

I have added this tag as the article has no sources. - FrancisTyers 17:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Francis, this is not the only issue, March Massacre is only called by Azeris, there are at least 6 March massacres recorded in history which are more notable and more widely known. Second of all, the claim that McCarthy claims that 12 thousands have been massacred is simply not true, I provided McCarthy's footnote, he simply provides sources with estimates, the official investigation provides not more than 2,000, which was meant to equilibrate the massacre of Armenians in Baku after the Turkish forces crossed it. According to those investigations 2,000 Azeris and 4,000 Armenians were massacres, when there are neutral sources providing as much as 30,000 Armenians, and that the only report, which is even cited by the prime Azeris source, is of 9,000 Armenian killed, which he justify as vengence. About Guba, this is not cite you source material, this is a delete material, for the reported 2,000 Azeris massacred the British report it, but they say nothing absolutly nothing about Jews being massacred. This just pop up by some dubvious member of the Azeris Academia of science and a Parlementarian of Azerbaijan. Misplaced Pages can not rely on unpublished materials. Fad (ix) 17:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Added {{pov-title}}. - FrancisTyers 18:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Here’s an article by professor Michael Smith of Georgetown university . He wrote an article for Sakharov center called "Pamiat’ ob utratakh i Azerbaidzhanskoe obshchestvo/Traumatic Loss and Azerbaijani National Memory", in Azerbaidzhan i Rossiia: obshchestva i gosudarstva/Azerbaijan and Russia: Society and State, ed. Dmitrii Furman (Moscow: Sakharov Institute, 2001). Available in Russian at Sakharov center website here. He says that Bolsheviks and Armenian dashnaks killed 12 000 Muslims in Baku in March 1918, and in retaliation Turks and Azeris killed 10 000 Armenians in September of the same year. He refers to the events in Baku as March events or massacre. There are more sources, but I have no desire to deal with Armenian-Azeri conflict for the moment. So the title does not appear to be POV. Grandmaster 18:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Ridiculous, of course always claim to have more sources and provide them never. I already cited from where those 12 thousand figure comes from, which McCarthy provides in his footnote, it was actualy a range, from 9,000 to 12,000. Your book doesn't provide any footnotes. Russia and Azerbaijan by Tadeusz Swietochowski provides 3,000 as figure, and is a much more notable work. (p. 66-67) British Consul Stevens cite the official commission, which was 2,000 Azeris killed and 4,000 Armenians killed. To even think that there was more Azeris massacred than Armenians once the Turkish army crossed the border. John Dos Passos in his book published in 1938 (Journeys Between Wars) provides quotations on how Baku felt in the hands of Dashnaks. Edward J. Erickson who relies on tainted Ottoman records, has much to say about the massacres of Armenians in Baku, but noting I have found about Azeris, he even claim that that the Turks did it by claiming it vengance for Turks killed in Erzerum in March 1918 and not Baku. (Ordered to Die- A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War p. 192) There are higher range of Armenians killed in Baku as much as 30,000 (see: International Politics- The Western State System and the World Community by Frederick Lewis Schuman). You have to give up on that Grandmaster, that period is the center of my knowledge about the issue. The large majority of sources provides much higher Armenian victims than Azeris. Fad (ix) 01:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Give up on what? You dispute the facts in the article, I provided you with the sources. The author is one of the best specialists in the history of Russia. And I always provide my neutral authoritative sources, unlike some other people, who prefer to use unreliable and biased ones. And the article has plenty of footnotes, including the one that discusses the casualties. The article mentions that about twelve thousand died in Baku during clashes and pogroms, and says that it was more than died in Petrograd during revolution. And then the footnote says:

С. Г. Шаумян говорит о 3000 убитых в ходе мартовских событий с обеих сторон (но это - только в самом Баку). Эту цифру принимают Пайпс, Свентоховский и Альтштадт. Азербайджанские источники приводят цифры от десяти до двенадцати тысяч. См.: La Republique de l’Azerbaijan du Caucase. Paris, 1919. P. 19; Государственный архив политических партий и общественных движений Азербайджанской Республики (в дальнейшем ГАППОД), ф. 277 (Дело “Мусавата”), оп. 2, л. 13, 16, 27. Также см. выступления на Втором съезде “Мусавата” (Азербайджан. 1919. № 268; № 270).

Stepan Shaumian talks about 3000 killed from both sides during March events (but this is only within the city of Baku). This figure is accepted by Pipes, Svyatokhovski and Altshtadt. The figures provided by Azerbaijani sources range from ten to twelve thousand. See: La Republique de l’Azerbaijan du Caucase. Paris, 1919. P. 19; State archive of political parties and public movements of Azerbaijan republic.

But the massacre continued in Guba, Shamakhi and other towns and villages of Baku governance, so even if you go with the minimal number of casualties in Baku there were much more Azeris killed in the towns and villages around Baku. And it was dashnaks who committed the first large massacre in the Caucasus in 1918. This is from HRW report:

Russia's Romanov dynasty collapsed under the weight of the First World War, and Azerbaijan and Armenia both declared independent republics. These were short-lived states that by 1920 were reincorporated into the Russian/Soviet fold. During this brief interlude, ethnic tensions flared again fueled by greater political goals. In March 1918, in an effort to seize Baku from local Muslim forces, Soviet Bolsheviks made a pact with the Armenian nationalist Dashnak party. In an orgy of violence that followed, between 3,000 and 3,500 Muslims were massacred. Less than six months later, in September 1918, the Ottoman "Army of Islam" supported by local Azeri forces recaptured Baku. This time an estimated 10,000 Armenians were slaughtered. As the "Great Game" was played out over Transcaucasia and British, Ottoman, Bolshevik, Azerbaijani, and Armenian forces criss-crossed the region, thousands more innocent Armenians and Azeris would lose their lives in communal violence.

Note the reference to the March massacre in the article. The historical part of the report is based on the analysis of the secondary sources, while the part about the late Soviet and post Soviet developments is based on HRW’s own researches. According to the footnotes, the figures of Muslim casualties are taken from Altstadt, The Azerbaijani Turks, pp. 85-87 ; Suny, "The Revenge of the Past," p. 29., while Armenian casualties are taken from Richard Hovannisian, "The Armeno-Azerbaijani Conflict over Mountainous Nagorno-Karabakh, 1918-1919," Armenian Review, Summer 1971. Grandmaster 13:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

So most sources are biased? Everyone can build a cases about whatever they want by finding one or two sources and support their points. I could build my cases as well on the claim that 30,000 Armenians were killed in Baku by the source I have provided. What you are doing is to try selling your sausage here too. Historians make a correlative assesment of events, they do not try finding the highest figures they can find. The 12,000 figure is an Azeris source, I already provided the originator of the source. Those figures have been presented as the Azeris position and published in the: ‘’Claims of the Delegation of the Republic of Caucasian Azerbaijan Presented to the Peace Conference in Paris’’ published in Paris in 1919, check page 18, which is the origine. That you can find some who recycle those figures it doesn’t make them any more credible. The commission provides 2,000, others uses 3,000 and slightly over, but the very large majority of sources provide at least 2 times more Armenian victims. I repeat, you are attempting on your own credibility by pushing this on, unlike you, here I can provide non-googled counless numbers of reputable publications. In fact, McCarthy range of 8,000 to 12,000, both the minima and the maxima originate from Azeris sources. The minima is what was submitted to Urquhart, it was submitted to him too that 18,000 Azeris were killed in Elizavetpol. (F.O. 3713301, no. 121685) and the maxima he provides is from the Azeris delegation, it appears that they were not satisfied with 8,000 since it was under the 9,000 figure of Armenians killed which was circulating. You claim that Smith provides many sources, but where is the 12,000’s footnote? It is a statistical impossibility. You were the one wanting to delete depositions and you are the one now that want to have the figures of the Azerbaijani delegation as sole truth when the most reputable figures are in the 2,000 or 3,000 and also from the most reputable figures there was at least 2 times more Armenian victims. So Hovannisian is not credible? Did you actually read any of his works? Do you even know from where he took those figures? If you are attempting to claim that there was more Azeris victim than Armenian in Baku, you are hardly convincing, that works like Rethinking the Middle East by Efraim Karsh doesn’t say a thing about massacres against Azeris in Baku but do cover the massacre of Armenians can hardly be considered as biases. The Armenians and Tartars have been pretty much 50-50 before the Ottoman army crossed the border and which has specifically chosen the butchers of Eastern Anatolia unboard. Unlike what happened in the end of March in Baku after he news of the Ottoman intention to capture it and the reaction of the Armenian refugees in Baku, the September massacre was premedited weeks before. This is confirmed by various reports including Ernst Paraquin chief of Staff of General Halil (who was the commander in chief of the Eastern army during that period). He reported to General Seeckt that there was an intention of massacre by the Tartars and that there was preparation. (Turkei 183/34, 26 September 1918)

Also, I have yet to see any sources about the 3,000 Jews being killed by Armenians in Guba. That too you have defended in the Sumgait article. You have to admit that you don’t have much knowledge of what you are talking about, it is not by googling and searching for any things you can find to support your position that you will help writting an encyclopedic article. Fad (ix) 15:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I did not actually say anything about credibility of Hovannisian, I just pointed out the sources of the figures in the HRW report. But I’m indeed skeptical about the information coming from Armenian sources, because even professor Smith points out certain things about their behavior (but not only theirs, to be precise). Smith is very critical of both sides of the conflict and the way they represent the events. He says that both sides talk only about being victims of massacres and prefer not to mention the atrocities committed by them. As an example, he points out that:

Neither Rasulzade (Resulzade M. E. Das Problem Aserbeidschan. Berlin, 1938), nor A.Balayev (Азербайджанское национал-демократическое движение. С. 18-19) mention the massacre of Armenians by Azerbaijanis in September 1918. On the contrary, the recent works by Ronald Suny don’t mention the massacre of Azerbaijanis by Armenians in March 1918, (see Suny R. G. The Soviet Experiment: Russia, the USSR, and Successor States. New York; Oxford, 1998. P. 99-100; The Revolution in Transcaucasia // Critical Companion to the Russian Revolution, 1917-1921 / Eds. E. Acton, V. Cherniaev and W. Rosenberg. Bloomington, 1997. P. 725).

And indeed, the article on the history of Azerbaijan in Britannica, written by Suny, who’s an ethnic Armenian, makes no mention of the massacre of Azeris, but mentions massacre of Armenians. It’s quite strange that Britannica chose Suny to write an article about Azerbaijan. See:

Azerbaijan was declared an independent state on May 28, 1918, but Baku remained in the hands of a communist government, assisted by local Armenian soldiers, who had put down a Muslim revolt in March. Allied with the advancing Turkish army, in September 1918 the Azerbaijani nationalists secured their capital, Baku, and engaged in a massacre of the Armenians.

Britannica is a very reliable source of information, but not always, it depends on who they choose to write about a certain topic. As for the figures from Azerbaijani side, some of them are much higher than 12 000, for example see here, it says 25 000, and some sources even claim that 50 000 were massacred.

As for Michael Smith figures, he does not mention the source of Azeri casualties of 12 000 and Armenian casualties of 10 000. It’s possible that he took them from Azerbaijani and Armenian sources, such as the same Hovannisian. He also mentions other available figures, as I said. Grandmaster 09:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I doubt you would claim Suny being biased had you read any of his works. First, Suny is half Armenian, second Suny impartiality has yet to be questioned. You should read his past coverages about Karabakh before saying that he is biased. Claiming biases on the bases that he is Armenian is the same thing as claiming anti-Muslim biases from Lewis part under the pretext that he is a Jew, while many have accused Lewis of pro-Muslim biases the same way that many have accused Suny of pro-Azeris biases. Unlike what you think, Armenian academics are generaly well balanced, even when covering Khojali massacres. You can not rely on a name to question the credibility of a scholar. Raffi Khatchadourian's article published in The Nation, Vol. 277, November 17, 2003 titled 'The Curse of the Caucasus' without reading it would be rejected by you, but I doubt that balatant pro-Armenian and anti-Azeris biases could be found in that work in which he writes: During the fighting, Armenian soldiers (many, it seems, recruited from Sumgait exiles) conducted the worst reported massacre, in the Azerbaijani town of Khojali, where several hundred civilians were slaughtered. How many Azeris scholar could you find that recognize any Armenian tragedies? They even deny the Armenian genocide, and more ardently than Turkish historians at that.

Indeed, there is no mention of the massacre of Azeris, and not only Armenians exclude it, there is no confirmed extent of such massacres, this is why you will find various works which include the massacre of Armenians and not Azeris. There is as well the fact that Halil who escaped the court martial and an organised exist from the prison in which he was on custity and who announced having killed 300,000 Armenians and attempting to kill the Armenians to the last individual run that mission on the Caucasus, transcaucasus and finally to Baku. There is no way that there could have been anywhere near as much Azeris killed in Baku and on its suroundings as there were Armenian killed. The Tartars got the support of an army which specifically was attempting to kill every single Armenian on that region. While the March massacre was initiated by the Russians, who opened Baku's door to the Armenian refugees who survived and who were manipulated by fear after March anouncement of the Ottoman attempt to penetrate and unite the Tartars, and on top of that Brest-Litovsk on March and still Baku's unclear juridiction, which has left Armenian refugees fate with uncertainty and the resulting probable evacuation had the Ottoman a higher hand.

If you realise how much people is 12,000 and how short a period is three days, and how many Armenians at max could have been involved there, it is simply not only an unlikely number, it is a statistical impossibility. It would mean 4 thousand people per day, while most available men were trying to secure Yerevan and that the Turkish forces cut Alexendripole like butter and that with this capability it would represent near 20% of the Armenian effectif lost in Baku killing 4,000 Azeris per day. It wasn't the first time there was confrontation and massacres between Tartars and Armenians and this continued later, but you can not compare this with Halil's army who was aiming at killing every Armenians he came accross, this is why the massacre of Armenians in Baku is of relevance and that those massacres perpetrated by Armenians and Tartars(during the period which they had no Ottoman support) are considered to have little relevance.

Right now, we must rely on what most sources say and not try finding the highest possibly figures. Also, this article alone has no place to exist, what you will call it? Baku massacre? This refers to the massacre of Armenians and you can check works about this. There should definitly be an article refer to this massacre, but it should be an article relating to the regiomn during that period.

As for Guba Jews massacre, this should definitly go, it is simply crap, not recorded in any archives neither works. We rely on published materials. Fad (ix) 16:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

With regard to Suny, it’s not me, it’s professor Smith who blames him of not mentioning the massacre of Azerbaijani people in Baku. As far as I can see Smith is absolutely right, Suny indeed does not mention the fact, while other reputable historians, such as Swietochowski, Altstadt, Pipes and others do.

I included the references to the intro, stating all available figures from reputable sources. All other facts stated in the article should also be properly referenced, so the tags should remain until that’s done. This event is indeed referred to as March massacre or March events by various sources, who deal with the history of the region, but is very little known to people, who don’t take any interest in the history of the region. Grandmaster 12:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't knew Pipes was a historian. As far as I am concerned there are as much evidences to consider Pipes as credible as ones country nationalistic historians.

You aren't convincing, Smith place that as the worst event ever in that region, while he provides no sources. And what you are doing is simply dishonest, Justin McCarthy uses figures which he provides in his footnote, which I have provided, this must be cited, you can not delete the source of the figures. Also, the minima range is not 3,000, but rather the commissions 2,000.

Also, that you like it or not March Massacre is not encyclopedic, there are at least 6 march massacres which are way much more notable like the March massacre against the Taiwanese.

Comming to Suny, Grandmaster, beside Swietochowski, the rest of those you have used (not much), are populist 'historians,' Suny works are well much researched and analytic, and once one understand him, there isen't much to say about his exclusion. (And like I said he isen't the only the excludes what you call the March massacre) Many things happened in 1918, the Turkish invasion on the Caucasus to the so-called Muslim detachments on the name of Turkdom and the Ottoman Empire union fought against the Baku Bolshevic armed forces in which Armenians were dragged and recuted in March 1918, (see for example: The Legacy of History in Russia and the New States of Eurasia by S. Frederick Starr p. 243, he too doesn.t mention much of this march massacre). Shahumian along with twenty six commissars were put to death by the so-called conter revolutionaries to the fall of Baku in September and the massacre of Armenians, which like it or not from most works left at the very least two times more deaths. There is as well the continual attempt by the Azeris side to get Zangezour which was later made possible once Karabakh passed under a local Azeris juridiction temporarly. The Azeris following it have rejected the August peace agreement and attacks culminating with the torching of the Shushi's Armenian quarter and the killing of its bishop and what went in Shosh village and what followed in other villages.

An analytic assesment would either include all or include the most relevant, Baku massacre of Armenians was done under the Ottoman army's, which diferenciate it with the conflicts between Armenians and Azeris.

And finaly, as I said, this article alone is delete material, there is no March massacre alone covered as an independent entity in any known reputable work, either it is included in an article, either it is delete material. Also, I have yet to see any records about the massacre of Jews. Fad (ix) 18:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It's really sad and yet amusing when one considers how much time you azeri members spend pushing your POV. You go to great lengths to distort the truth, never understanding that there's 20 other editors who know your edits for what they really are.--Moosh88 05:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Retraction

After reading Michael G. Smith paper: Anatomy of a Rumour: Murder Scandal, the Musavat Party and Narratives of the Russian Revolution in Baku, 1917-20 (Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 36, No. 2 (Apr., 2001), pp. 211-240 ), I retract my implying of him being a populist historian. Clearly he is much more analytic than Altstadt, and unlike Altstadt doesn't seem to be engaged in symplistic analysis. His coverage of what he calls 'March Event' is pretty much in correlation with some other works I have read. He also uses 12 thousand as figure, but says that up to that number (doesn't footnote it). He covers the Muslim and Bolshevic and Dashnak fightings in March and what followed after the Bolshevic propaganda's about a Muslim revolution, which according to Smith was exagerated. We definitly here have a very relevant paper wich depict the situation and which coupled with few other ones I have found could be used to write an article. I suggest creating an article titled: 'Bolshevic Revolution in Baku' to replace this article. I could email Smith's article to those that want to contribute. Any comment? Fad (ix) 05:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I’ll get back to this a little later, I’m looking for more material for the moment. And please email me the article, if you can. Grandmaster 19:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Name

I decided to move this article from "March Massacre" to "March Days" for two reasons:

The name "March Days" has been used by many historians to describe these events including Michael P. Croissant and Audrey L. Altstadt. Meanwhile, I haven't seen the term "March Massacre" used outside of Misplaced Pages. The only historian who seems to use a slightly different name is Michael G. Smith who refers to it as the "March events."
The name "March Massacre" is too broad as it can describe just about any massacre that occured in March during history.

I also decided to revert this article to its earlier NPOV version. This version excludes certain passages that under Wikipedian standards would be considered POV. These include pieces sourced by the Azerbaijani media and the extremely pro-Turkish Justin McCarthy (who, I might add, denies that the Armenian Genocide ever occured and has been used to push the agenda of the Turkish government as recent documents have shown). Croissant, I believe, provides the number 20,000 for a possible higher Armenian death toll in the subsequent September Days incident that followed. -- Clevelander 00:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The Croissant source doesnt have a link to it, its only a line but nothing is backing it up? The other source says 10,000 Baku87 21:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The Croissant source is a book. This particular information, if I'm not mistaken can be found on page 15 and is referenced. Although it is not an eBook, it does have an ISBN which is the closest thing you'll get to an online link. -- Clevelander 21:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Outside opinion

It is my understanding that one user is continually reverting essentially the same block of text. I took a look at the removed text, and the only portion which should be removed is:

The telegram shows that Lenin, with his genius for appreciating people, felt the rashness of Shaumyan. Lenin's advice about diplomacy was nothing but a warning to be more careful and less provoking.

This reads like speculation. However, the other parts of the article which are continuously reverted should be kept. They are very well-cited and not, to my reading, POV. I encourage the involved editors to respond here. Srose (talk) 17:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll leave it for now i guess. Nareklm 17:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Srose, the text you quoted above is taken as is from Dr. Kazemzadeh's book with a page indicated. FYI, Dr. Kazemzadeh is a Professor Emeritus of History at Yale University, recently headed U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedoms. He is an author of several books on Iran, CAucasus and the region. The book quoted here is his PhD thesis with introductory letter from Harvard Professor. So I deem everyone who disputes the wording of a man with such qualifications, to have comparative qualifications in the science of history. Thanks for your contribution. Tengri 18:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Not everyone knows this person. Nareklm 18:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The quote preceding my italicized quotation appears to be found in the book you have cited, but the italicized quotation which concerns me draws a conclusion from the quote FOR the reader, and can thus be construed as POV. Unless that statement appears in its entirety within the book, it should not be included. If it is included, it should be written with the introductory phrase, "According to Dr. Kazemzadeh." Srose (talk) 18:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The statement appears in its entirety on the page of the book indicated in reference, which is page 70, in the section titled "March Events". If you wish, we can add the words "According to Dr. Kazemzadeh". Actually, can you explain me how to cite the same reference in different parts of the text on Wiki, without having to repeated the whole reference in reference section? Thanks. Tengri 18:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that's all right then. I can only get certain pages through my online sources. If it's a direct quote, it should be in quotation marks (") with the citation directly following in any case. It should appear: According to Dr. Kazemzadeh "(quote here)" . I'm actually not sure how to cite the same non-Internet reference without having it repeat itself, I'm sorry to say. :X Srose (talk) 18:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Srose, I have no problem with that particular edit. If you don't mind, I would also like to get your opinion on the quote in Aftermath section: "Although not an isolated incident, given the participation of the Azerbaijanis during the Ottoman offensive on Armenia in early 1918" which is uncited and used by Nareklm. This quote is absolutely untrue, I would like Nareklm to provide reference exactly to this quote in the book cited at the end of paragraph with section and line number.

If he can't provide the reference, this part of sentence should be removed. In return, I will provide exact quotes on events of September 15, 1918 and number of victims as quoted from the Armeinan National Council by Kazemzadeh and several other references.Tengri 18:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. I haven't gotten to go sentence-by-sentence yet. I think, at this point, everything that isn't cited should be removed from this article. Usually it's okay to have a {{fact}} tag on something in an article for a week or two, but as this is such a disputed article, we should probably just rid ourselves and the article of anything needing such a tag for the time being. Srose (talk) 00:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all i did not put it, i see your trying to do everything in your power to get rid of things like this and it will stay so don't worry. Nareklm 00:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, my complain was that Nareklm just blindly removed a big chunk of text. Now, we can work on the citation, texts and proves.--Dacy69 17:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Nareklm, perhaps, if you were really interested in history of your own nation, Armenians, instead of making endless rv's removing references, you would know Dr. Kazemzadeh. And what was the purpose of RV, to hide the truth of killings, why? Dr. Kazemzadeh actually provided a good coverage of historical events, which you call "September Days" in his book, which I will add in coming days. And I am sure you will be sorry for not knowing him well or not appreciating his references. Tengri 18:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I really don't care about hiding the "killings" i can't hide it its already happened, theres nothing to worry about since the massive amount of pogroms, genocides, massacres and human rights violations come from Turkey or Azerbaijan against Christian minorities or Armenians. I don't know if this person is bias or not, or against certain types of people. Nareklm 18:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Killings in a war don't come from single side. But I won't argue on that endlessly. Let's rather leave the truth to references, if you're unable to handle it on your own. Thanks. Tengri 18:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It's wonderful to see how quickly this was resolved. I really encourage both of you to communicate here for an improvement of the article. :) Srose (talk) 18:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Croissant's bubble quotes moved out of context

Nareklm, before putting quotes out of context, you should seriously review the referenced material in Reference section. This quote:

"The brutalities continued for weeks. No quarter was given by either side: neither age nor sex was respected. Enormous crowds roamed the streets, burning houses, killing every passer-by who was identified as an enemy, many innocent persons suffering death at the hands of both the Armenians and Azerbaijanis. The struggle which had begun as a political contest between the Musavat and the Soviet assumed the characters of a gigantic race riot."

actually is in Firuz Kazemzadeh's book, p. 73, paragraph 1, word-to-word and pertains to March events not to September ones, like you did imply by putting it at the end. Kazemzadeh's book was published in 1951. If Michael Croissant republished this paragraph without reference, it should be shameful of him as a scholar. My apologies if he did reference Dr. Kazemzadeh. However, my concern is also about Croissant's rough 10 - 20,000 estimate bazaar about Armenians killed during September events. It seems to me that he counts people as watermellons without any serious research whatsoever into roots of the conflict or any documents related to it. Same goes with his irrelevant and maleducated quotes like "Azerbaijanis participated in Ottoman attacks on Armenia". The question is which Azerbaijanis, private individuals, society, country, army? I doubt Croissant can answer this question with serious research. Another genious one, "Armenians were taking revenge for genocide". Croissant probably has no idea that Azeri-Armenian conflict first flared in 1905, 10 years before the events in Ottoman Empire, and it has nothing to do with Ottoman Empire. Again Croissant is a failure as an unbiased expert of any kind on Armenian-Azeri conflict.

I presented the exact quote by Dr. Kazemzadeh, quoting Armenian National Council and Ishkhanian. Please, do not modify my quotes, get the originals of references before referring to them. If this continues I will request again protection of the page, which was imposed by my request but lifted against my will today. Tengri 11:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Categories: