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August 6

How to fix this tiny sentence?

Sentence: At the direction of Michael, his man destroyed the house of Terry, who driven his car without permission, and loot Terry's cash, hacked Terry's email.

How to phrase this sentence grammatical? I tried my best but annoyed due to placement of "and" word Rizosome (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Rizosome: Before making any suggestions, what exactly is going on? I would exercise caution with using pronouns with just this sentence as context, as there are three different people that he could refer to. It sounds like Terry drove Michael's car without permission, and Michael ordered someone to destroy Terry's house, loot his cash, and hack his email. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Do reader can understand money and email belong to Terry from your sentence?: Terry drove Michael's car without permission, and Michael ordered someone to destroy Terry's house, loot his cash, and hack his email. Rizosome (talk) 14:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

It's impossible to "fix" this sentence without knowing who did what to whom and when. You'd need to break it down into a chronological set of simple statements, in a list. A single sentence might then be reconstructed? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:00, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I read it as; Terry drove Michael's car. As a result, Michael gave the order to destroy Terry's house, loot Terry's cash, and hack Terry's email. Michael's man carried out Michael's order.Dja1979 (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

It might also help if you told us where this came from. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the readers would understand that the money and email belonged to Terry in Tenryuu's phrasing. Your own wording jumps back and forth between tenses and inserts a parenthetical phrase about Terry into a rather awkward point, rendering it highly confusing. What is this sentence from? What are you attempting to describe? --Khajidha (talk) 20:43, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

August 8

Post-nominal A.M.

I apologize if this is an elementary request, but I'm currently working on the article Jacob Green. In his autobiography, the letters A.M. follow his name, and although I've tried my best to research what they stand for, I'm at a loss. The only one I thought it could stand for from the A.M. Misplaced Pages disambiguation link was a Master of Arts, though Green never secured a master's degree. Similarly, Jonathan Edwards, influential theologian of the Great Awakening, features the A.M. occasionally at the end of his name. I would not be surprised if this is simply a quirk of some archaic writing that isn't commonly used anymore, though I could be mistaken. Anyone who can provide some information on this would be greatly appreciated, as I'm confused how a simple Google search isn't working. PoliticsIsExciting (talk) 04:41, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

At Master's degree it says: "From the late Middle Ages until the nineteenth century, the pattern of degrees was therefore to have a bachelor's and master's degree in the lower faculties and to have bachelor's and doctorates in the higher faculties. In the United States, the first master's degrees (Magister Artium, or Master of Arts) were awarded at Harvard University soon after its foundation. In Scotland, the pre-Reformation universities (St Andrews, Glasgow, and Aberdeen) developed so that the Scottish MA became their first degree, while in Oxford, Cambridge and Trinity College, Dublin, the MA was awarded to BA graduates of a certain standing without further examination from the late seventeenth century, its main purpose being to confer full membership of the university. At Harvard the 1700 regulations required that candidates for the master's degree had to pass a public examination, but by 1835 this was awarded Oxbridge-style three years after the BA."

Note that it doesn't say when between 1700 and 1835 the rules changed at Harvard. Green graduated from there in 1744, so maybe they were already issuing the automatic master's (and abbreviating it AM rather than MA) at that time, or maybe they did it some time later in his life and he started using the post-nominal after that. Anyone feel like asking Harvard? --184.144.99.72 (talk) 05:22, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Appreciate the help. It appears you are correct upon looking more into it. Just wanted to check to ensure that it wasn't some religious society or something. Thanks again. PoliticsIsExciting (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

You can also look at Master of Arts#North America where it lists a number of US institutions that use AM for 'Artium Magister'. 2A00:23C8:4583:9F01:FDA5:13C4:F88D:5D4D (talk) 10:45, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

What's a fortnight in the USA?

This Australian only very recently discovered that a word I have been using frequently for most of my 70+ years apparently doesn't exist in American English. That word is "fortnight". Our article on the subject says "In North America it is usual to say biweekly." But that's wrong. Biweekly would be the equivalent of fortnightly, not fortnight. Is there an American equivalent of fortnight? (Apart from the obvious "two weeks".) HiLo48 (talk) 06:42, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

That or "14 days".

The fortnight isn't exactly unknown in North America, but it's one of those obscure units used by foreigners or by people who geekily love using obscure units. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 08:09, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

So, no fortnights in Canada either? HiLo48 (talk) 08:20, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

It's one of those obscure units used by foreigners or... --184.144.99.72 (talk) 08:23, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Cool. I shall correct the article. 09:36, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Although I suspect Fortnite now has some currency amongst North American youth. Alansplodge (talk) 11:24, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Hockey Night in Canada is an institution, but less popular sports would have to settle for something like Lacrosse Fortnightly in New Westminster. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Many Americans know what it means but they don't use it often. It's like other Britishisms, such as saying "penultimate" instead of "next to last". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:44, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think "penultimate" is a Britishism, per se. It's a somewhat obscure, high-register word in both varieties. (Using it to mean "an extreme example of" is, of course, simply an error.) --Trovatore (talk) 16:54, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it was either obscure or high-register, one hears football commentators and the like using it. In Britain, that is. DuncanHill (talk) 17:00, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

It's often used by English-speaking linguists of any nationality when discussing which syllable in a word receives stress. The term "antepenultimate syllable" also occurs in such discussions. AnonMoos (talk) 04:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

"Then it flashed through her mind what her mother had said with her antepenultimate breath ..." —Tamfang (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Both words are known and used in the U.S., but are less common than the equivalent descriptors "two weeks" and "second-to-last"/"next-to-last". --Jayron 32 12:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Is not biweekly, twice in a week, whereas bimonthly would be twice in a month, neither being 14 days (unless most Februarys), although bimonthly might be close (or lunar)? (compare, biannually and biennially) -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Some of us insist that "bi-(time period)" means "every two periods". "Biweekly" is indeed every two weeks; twice in a week is "semi-weekly". Similarly "bimonthly" and "semi-monthly", and "biennally" (or "biannually") and "semi-annually". Others do what they will. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 18:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Oh. I now see there are confused bi-ways, so to speak ("Sorry, not sorry") -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I think I have never heard biweekly used to mean 'twice a week'. Or at least: the number of times I have found anyone using the word in this sense pales to nothing beside the number of times I've witnessed disputes about the word itself. —Tamfang (talk) 00:46, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Pulling up Google ngram charts for the British and American corpuses respectively shows the shifting usage – fortnight begins to fall in British usage in the 1950s and the crossover is the late 1970s whereas in American English, two weeks took off from 1830 and the crossover was in the 1860s . Alansplodge is quite right about a recent big rise in fortnite in the US but not the UK: 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The term is not commonly used in North American English, although it may exist in some regional variants. This could be because it hadn't entered the English language by the early 17th century when Europeans first settled on the Eastern seaboard or it might have died out. there seems no obvious reason to have a 2 syllable word, fortnight, to represent a two syllable phrase, two weeks. But it is a contraction of fourteen nights. I wonder though if the U.S. adopted the expressed, it would be written "fortnite." TFD (talk) 18:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps like this non-native English speaker in England , fortnight is associated primarily with Shakespeare plays in U.S. and some other places. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:28, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

It appears in Romeo and Juliet when Lady Capulet says that Lammastide will be in a "fortnight and odd days". Alansplodge (talk) 00:14, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Brevity isn't everything; we also say "quarter of an hour" instead of "fifteen minutes". Alansplodge (talk) 00:25, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Unless we're in Devon, in which case we'd say "dreckly". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

August 10

Plural of Portuguese man o war (jellyfish-like creatures)?

Is it "men o war", "man o wars" or "man o war"? I have seen all three.

Wiktionary:man-of-war says: "man-of-war (plural men-of-war)". ~~Like gins-and-tonic.~~ Alansplodge (talk) 00:04, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, not that much like it. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 06:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

We live and learn. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Most people would settle for G&Ts, I think. And yes, they are in fact not jellies but siphonophorae. Although they're called men-of-war, they actually look like caravels... (especially after a few G&Ts).Martinevans123 (talk) 11:18, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps because it fights back? Alansplodge (talk) 11:55, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Of course they should be renamed gender-neutral persons-of-war. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:50, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

"War" is passé; how about gender-neutral persons of overseas contingency operations. --107.15.157.44 (talk) 16:37, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I think you'll find it's gender-neutral Iberian peninsular persons of overseas contingency operations. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:39, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

"Overseas" is passé. Now it's "off-shore". And I think it would be Iberian-peninsular gender-neutral persons of off-shore contingency operations. -- Jack of Oz 22:09, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Dialog Doubt in Runaway Jury

Jury consultant Rankin Fitch sends Doyle to get a lead on Marlee, who is demanding him money for a verdict:

Rankin Fitch: Doyle, where the hell are you?
Doyle: Headed for exit 245. Some backwater town in central Indiana, but I think I got a good lead on the girl.
Rankin Fitch: Well, move it along. The judge is about to give this thing to the jury. Shit.

What does "this thing" refer to? Rizosome (talk) 06:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I haven't seen this film, but from the context, Jury instructions is a possibility. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:35, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I suggest that it simply means the case: the case is going to go to the jury. --184.144.99.72 (talk)

Somewhat more explicitly, in the first phase of a jury trial the two parties argue their case and introduce evidence in the court room, in the presence of the jury, which in this phase has no other role than to observe. At some point, the parties "rest their case", meaning that their presentations have concluded. After that, they cannot present any further arguments or evidence for consideration by the jury. Then the trial proceeds to a new phase; it is now up to the jury to find a judgement. This jury phase starts with the judge giving instructions to the jury. --Lambiam 09:11, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Italian slur?

There is a name I guess I better not write here, a diminutive of Federico that was the shortened given name of Michael Corleone's not-so-bright younger brother in The Godfather. I'm told that this name is now considered a nasty slur among Italian Americans. Is that true? I heard it applied to a certain New York TV personality, with the response that it was comparable to "the N word". That sounded like it had to be an overstatement to me, but I live on the west coast now, where there is less linguistic influence of this type than there is in New York. Thanks. 2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 18:20, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I think Fredo Corleone is older than Michael, which is the youngest of Vito’s sons. Also note that the short name Fredo is Italo-American, and does not exist in Italy —-it’s the result of a funny italianisation of the English form Fred by adding the masculine suffix -o. pm a 21:14, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

You may find this interesting: ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Wiktionary has "(sometimes offensive) A black sheep, a disliked outcast in a family or other group", while noting, "Possibly offensive to those of Italian descent". Two of the uses given are "Teddy has been called the Fredo of the Kennedy family, and so he was" and "The entire Bush family is a crime syndicate that puts the Corleones to shame (with George W. Bush playing the role of Fredo)." I think this is as offensive (or not) to Irish and Anglo-Saxon Americans as it is to Italian Americans. It only becomes offensive when someone is labelled with the monicker as an ethnic slur, applied because of their descent. --Lambiam 19:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

If it actually did originate with The Godfather, then presumably it wasn't a slur before then, but took on the "slur" of equivalency. Kind of like with infamous individuals such as Benedict Arnold or Quisling. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Right Said Freddo? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:24, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Bugs' BBC article is in depth and informative. Of course the transformation to a slur would have resulted from the movie but that still counts. It's maybe similar to the time someone in the Trump administration got called a "Sith lord". 2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 20:24, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that was offensive to all Siths. --Lambiam 08:48, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Not to be confused with a Freddo. Princess Persnickety (talk) 08:10, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Is it crunchy? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:30, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

They're chocolatey, delicious and always lead to cries of "they were only 10p in my day!" Princess Persnickety (talk) 12:03, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

"They were only 4d in my day!" (... not really, as 1973 was 2 years after Decimal Day, but never mind). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:44, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I never heard of them before now, but I assume they influenced the chocolate frogs in the Harry Potter novels... AnonMoos (talk) 23:56, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I thought the Harry Potter bit was a nod to the Crunchy Frog sketch from Monty Python's Flying Circus... --Jayron 32 22:26, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

August 12

The phrase "in flumina aut præcipitia"

Needless to say, both "Misplaced Pages:Requested articles" and "Misplaced Pages:Requested articles/Other" are blind alleys which lead nowhere! Therefore, how are the untermenschen supposed to "add a request for it", "it" being a missing article or notelet?

The phrase "in flumina aut præcipitia" occurs at en.wiktionary.org/ignis_fatuus , so why does wiktionary.org not have a page at either wiktionary.org/in_flumina_aut_pr%C3%A6cipitia or wiktionary.org/in_flumina_aut_præcipitia ?

Is Misplaced Pages yet another ignis fatuus? 92.40.174.15 (talk) 09:03, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Try again, in English. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:45, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Six million, three hundred and thirty-five thousand, seven hundred and thirteen (currently) existing articles does not seem to me to be a will-o'-the-wisp. However, asking on one website why a different website doesn't contain a particular item does strike me as a fatuous exercise.

Since the contents of both separate projects are entirely created by unpaid volunteers who contribute (or not) whatever they choose to without any directions from any non-existent ǔbermenschen, the reason for the lack so far of any particular article in either is the same for both: no-one has chosen to create it – yet.

As Robert Burton himself has unaccountably failed to contribute an article to us (or Wictionary) on the subject of this throwaway line in his 1621 medical textbook, it must fall to someone else, if to anyone, with the appropriate knowledge and interest. Since you yourself, 92.40.174.15, have so far shown the most familiarity with the topic, I suggest that you take this tide in your affairs at the flood and write it yourself. We are all untermenschen here. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.27.112 (talk) 15:05, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

There is of course nothing about that one-off phrase that's in need of an article to explain it, either on Misplaced Pages or on Wiktionary. It simply means what it says: "into rivers or precipices" (figuratively, presumably, for "into dangerous places" or "into dead ends"). Wiktionary has all the info necessary at wikt:flumen and wikt:praecipitium. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:11, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Had 92.40.174.15 dared to read one more sentence in wikt:ignis fatuus, they would have read: An ignis fatuus, that bewitches, \ And leads men into pools and ditches, which is at least for insiders a hint to the meaning of in flumina aut præcipitia. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 19:30, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

When did being an "insider" become a requirement for making sense of Misplaced Pages? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:26, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

There's no such thing as a Misplaced Pages insider. All of us, no matter how many zillions of edits we've made or whatever admin positions we may have held, are outsiders nibbling at the rich chocolatey nutty coating and gazing inwards with our minds' eyes at the delicious gooey, creamy centre of all our lives. (I'll leave now.) -- Jack of Oz 22:42, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, yes, looking for nougats of information. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

panpipe, pan flute

I found myself thinking about panpipes today: Where have all the Bolivian buskers gone who piped "El Condor pasa" in every shoppings street, unremittingly, and seemingly without complaint, a fixture of my childhood? When did they disappear, and why didn't I notice at the time? Did they silently curse Paul Simon behind their panpipes, or was ist pan flutes they were playing? Had they even ever heard of Paul Simon, or of Pan, the Greek god of shepherds? More to the point, this being the language ref. desk: Why is "panpipe" is written as one word but "pan flute" as two - something to do with pancakes...? Then I wondered why "pan flute" is not capitalized; Pan is definitely a proper name, innit? And then I wondered who coined the term in the first place, and whether the original coinage involved "flute" or a "pipe" and ended up with this this ngram, which begs another question: what happened to the "panpipe" in 2005? It's been in steep decline ever since, and for the first time in history the "pan flute" may take the lead. Does the collapse of the panpipe coincide with the sudden disappearance of all those Bolivians? --2003:DA:A716:4D00:C134:5E50:5DB:A5EB (talk) 16:17, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

The OED example sentences begin with three from 1805, 1846, 1893 spelled “Pan's-pipe”, then five from 1820, 1825, 1879, 1905, 1929 spelled “pan-pipe” / “pan-pipes”. Then they skip right to 2000 and panpipe. Dropping the hyphen over time is a common spelling phenomenon. See Thousands of hyphens perish as English marches on 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I didn't even think of hyphens, so I updated my ngram, it seems the panpipe first overtook the pan-pipe around 1920 and has reigned supreme from 1938 onwards, long predating the age of the internet. Still I wonder: why hasn't the pan flute/pan-flute likewise contracted into one word? And shouldn't it be spelt with a capital P? (Also, for what it's worth: I now believe that the term was coined by some Frenchman somewhere around 1680 and involved a flûte). --2A01:C23:5D8E:6400:DC88:A92C:CCD1:C268 (talk) 18:35, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

A Musical Manual, or, Technical Directory Thomas Busby (London, 1828) p. 134 has "Pipes of Pan". Obviously a well established term to appear in a music encyclopedia. Alansplodge (talk) 18:43, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

The story of Pan and Syrinx told in Ovid’s Metamorphoses would have been well known in Western Europe since at least the high middle ages, Chaucer references the work. Syrinx was turned into a bunch of reeds to avoid the amorous attentions of Pan, who cut the reeds into uneven lengths to make an musical instrument. Whether he used it for busking is not recorded. Alansplodge (talk) 19:09, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Mmmm, it seems that Syrinx was also turned into a syringe, in English at least. Food for thought...--2A01:C23:5D8E:6400:DC88:A92C:CCD1:C268 (talk) 19:30, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Also, I think "flute" and "pipe" would have been more-or-less synonymous in Early Modern English; "pipe" coming from Old English: a "simple tubular musical wind instrument", and "flute" being a medieval loanword from French: Ancient flutes were direct, blown straight through a mouthpiece but held away from the player's mouth; the modern transverse or German flute developed 18c. The older style then sometimes were called flûte-a-bec (French, literally "flute with a beak"). The modern design and key system of the concert flute were perfected 1834 by Theobald Boehm. Alansplodge (talk) 10:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

As to where the panpipe buskers have gone, certainly in the UK in the last decade, there has been a drive by local councils in tourist cities to regulate busking either by permit schemes or by limiting the number of places where busking is allowed (or both), hoping to exclude those who are just an annoying noise. Alansplodge (talk) 09:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

August 13

Shinjitai question

Why was the simplification 弗→厶 carried out in 払 and 仏 but not in 沸, which sits right between them on the joyo kanji list? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 06:12, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

August 14

Categories: