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Talk:Israeli settlement

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Haaretz article: "Secret 1970 document confirms first West Bank settlements built on a lie."

Haaretz - Yotam Berger - Secret 1970 document confirms first West Bank settlements built on a lie, 28 July 2016. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZScarpia (talk • contribs)

Security isn't a "pretext"

Under 4.2 Settlement Policy, the article reads "The government abrogated the prohibition from purchasing occupied land by Israelis; the "Drobles Plan", a plan for large-scale settlement in the West Bank meant to prevent a Palestinian state under the pretext of security became the framework for its policy."

The dictionary definition of pretext is something that is put forward to conceal a true purpose or object; an ostensible reason; excuse.

The provided citation doesn't support the copy in the wiki article. The document doesn't say that security was a pretext. The document says security is one of several reasons to develop the settlements. The cited article reads, "The following are the principles which guided the plan: 1. Settlement throughout the entire Land of Israel is for security and by right, A strip of settlements at strategic sites enhances both internal and external security alike, as well as making concrete and realizing our right to Eretz Israel..."

So the article isn't even denying that it assumes that the Israelis have some sort of biblical or historical right to Israel, BUT it also argues that the settlements would improve security.

There is also the matter that the same section of this article implies that these cited documents were written by representatives of the Israeli government; they were not, they were written by departments of the World Zionist Organization which is an NGO and not directed by the Israeli government. It was essentially written by a think tank advocating a certain perspective but the article casts it as from the central government planning office. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.54.105.157 (talk)

Israeli Colonies

Calling Israeli settlements a colony is completely ridiculous. One source says that, and the idea that is some universally agreed thing is crazy. If you put that, at least say its debated.

Change:

"Israeli settlements are civilian communities inhabited by Israeli citizens, built on lands occupied by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War. Israeli settlements currently exist in the Palestinian-claimed territory of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and in the Syrian-claimed territory of the Golan Heights."

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israels-rights-in-the-west-bank-under-international-law Their is debate to whether it defies international law.

There isn't any debate, they are declared illegal by United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334, 14-0, US abstaining. Colony is a synonym and they have no official name so not ridiculous, the French even use colonie for settlement.Selfstudier (talk) 09:45, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
According to the Colony article, the term is used is English "to refer mainly to the many different overseas territories of particularly European states between the 15th and 20th centuries CE." The French is irrelevant here. In regard to Israeli settlements, the term "colony" is used mostly by Pro-Palestinian writers looking to draw comparisons between Israeli policies and colonialism. By using this term here, it is implied that Misplaced Pages subscribes to that point of view, which is of course a violation of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Tombah (talk) 21:35, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
What is the source of your claim that the word is used mostly by pro-Palestinian writers.
Even if that were the case, being pro-Palestinian is a mainstream position, as is being pro-Israeli. Only a tiny minority of people are anti-Palestinian or anti-Israeli.
Under international law, these places are colonies in exactly the sense you quote above, are they not? If you are trying to point out a difference vs the 18th and 19th century colonies of Britain and France, please could you explain further? Onceinawhile (talk) 00:14, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
The article colony matches the Israeli situation quite well. From the historical point of view, "colony" was the usual word used by Zionists to refer to Jewish settlements in pre-mandate Palestine. But anyway it is sources that matter here. Zero 01:20, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

There are a ton of sources attesting to colony being a commonly used name. A Misplaced Pages editor's personal dislike is of course not relevant. And the very basic misstatement as to what NPOV requires above shows the issue. It is claimed it is a NPOV violation to include views of "Pro-Palestinian writers", but NPOV requires the inclusion of all significant viewpoints. The view that these places are colonies is indeed significant and well sourced. And efforts to suppress that well sourced material are tendentious and violate the discretionary sanctions in place on this article. nableezy - 02:25, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile, this is not the place to discuss Israeli policies and historical comparisons. The international community use the term settlements, rather than colonies. Tombah (talk) 06:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
@Zero, it is correct that the name colony was used by Jews in Mandatory Palestine, but it is no longer the case since 1948. Using anachronistic names might confuse our readers. Tombah (talk) 06:59, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
@Nableezy The sources used for the term "Colonies" are all written by Arabs. We are not discriminating anyone in here, but in an article dedicated for one of the major issues of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, with the Arabs being a belligerent, its usage makes it strictly one-sided. One of the sources cited even explicitly states that this is a Palestinian term. I still haven't seen one single sources written by either Israelis or the international community in which the term "colonies" is used. I agree that as with every other Misplaced Pages article, this one should include all significant viewpoints - but not as part of the lead. For more information regarding how to do that, please read Misplaced Pages:Describing points of view. Until this issue is solved, I'm adding an unbalanced template to this article. Tombah (talk) 07:16, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Tombah the usage of colonies though sometime used is not prevalent and certainly shouldn't be appear as alternative name per WP:UNDUE also the removal of the tag was unwarranted. There are clearly WP:DUE and WP:NPOV issue

'Treated equally under Israeli law'

This is not challenged...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaylahackman (talk • contribs) 21:58, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

The place I see that is where it says settlers are treated the same as Israelis in Israel proper. That is mostly correct, though they do qualify for benefits and subsidies not available to Israelis within Israel (iirc). nableezy - 22:55, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

colonies as a common name

"Israeli colonies" is used in countless sources to describe the, well, colonies Israel has established outside its sovereign territory. And it is simply untrue that it is only used by Palestinian sources (eg here), and when exactly did we disregard sources by ethnicity? Are Jewish Israeli sources banned here or did I miss a memo? nableezy - 20:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The only question about the use of colonies as a descriptor is the frequency, is it frequently, widely, often, sometimes, rarely used? My instinct is sometimes (perhaps more so academically due to it being a synonym), let's see if we can firm that up. Selfstudier (talk) 22:40, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
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