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Archives (Index)
Archive 1 02/03 – 08/04	Archive 2 08/04 – 01/05
Archive 3 01/05 – 02/05	Archive 4 02/05 – 06/05
Archive 5 03/05 – 07/05	Archive 6 07/05 – 10/05
Archive 7 10/05 – 11/05	Archive 8 11/05 – 12/05
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Archive 19 04/17 –
Biographies for discussion of material relating to the history of Baha'i figures
Picture discussion of the display of Baha'u'llah's photograph
Request for comment discussion generated by a RfC of Feb 2005
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FAR needed

I fear that the copy at hand might need some sprucing up. It hasn't been reviewed formally in almost 15 years, and I'm not sure it complies with MOS rules at present. There are for instance incomplete citations (), -tags, short stubby paragraphs, lists, see also-section, image tagging problems, as well as sandwiched images. Nutez (talk) 16:48, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes it's a bit of a mess. I find it much easier to work on simple articles with fewer sources. In the last few years I've acquired many books from independent sources covering the Baha'i Faith, so I can help clean it up, but we're talking about a significant amount of time involved. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 19:01, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I edit articles on Baha'i topics a lot and would be happy to help with gradually cleaning this up. In the meantime, I'll put a few thoughts here. I think another major shortcoming (as Cuñado was alluding to) is the large number of non-independent, non-mainstream sources used for much of the information. There are quite a few high-quality sources that can be added instead. The persecution section quite reasonably focuses on Iran, but after that a broader selection of countries could be used rather than focusing so much on Egypt. I think a (brief) criticism section is also appropriate as per Misplaced Pages:Criticism#Approaches to presenting criticism. The basis for that already exists at Criticism of the Baháʼí Faith. One last note is that while Peter Smith's books of 2000 and 2008 are good sources, we don't want to rely on them excessively for the article. Gazelle55 (talk) 01:01, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

This is a GREAT idea. I don't know that I'll be able to spend a lot of time editing the article myself, but I'd be happy to contribute my thoughts on talk pages/votes/whatever depending on the need. dragfyre_ʞןɐʇ c 10:07, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

By the way, for anybody working on cleaning up this article, this edited book may be the best resource available yet. It doesn't seem to include non-Baha'i contributors such as Warburg, Amanat, and MacEoin, but overall it is up-to-date, comprehensive, and features a broad range of contributors. I haven't found a way to get access yet but other contributors might have options. Gazelle55 (talk) 19:35, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I got that in the mail two weeks ago but haven't had much time yet. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:28, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Why I removed the India number

Hi, Smkolins, I wanted to touch base about including that India number. I see I made a typo in my edit summary which probably made it unclear... what I meant to write is we don't need *two* estimates for one country. My point was that the paragraph right above (citing The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2004) already gave a list of the largest national populations (including India's, which it estimates at 2.2 million). I apologize since with that typo it looked like I was saying we shouldn't have individual country estimates at all. With that in mind, is it okay if I remove the point again since the same info is already covered? Thanks, Gazelle55 (talk) 14:46, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Gazelle55 I can see what you mean and my edit didn't fix it. But it's a broader problem actually. Most of the information is repetitious but the later data seems more relevant and slightly echoing the problem of other pages where there is a pseudo-continental breakdown blending into countries and the later data is mostly countries. I'd favor some kind of merger while keeping the best of both. Perhaps something like:

The world's largest Baháʼí population according to the Association of Religion Data Archives lives in India, which in 2010 was home to an estimated 1,897,651 Baháʼís, and its religionists are the largest numerical religious minority in Iran. This was out of a generality in Asia of about 3.6 million from a nearly contemporaneous analysis by The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2004. The religion is also the largest numerical religious minority in Panama and Belize, and the second largest international religion in Bolivia, out of a generality of Latin America of some 900,000. The Bahá'ís were the second largest international religion in Zambia, and was the third largest international religion in Chad and Kenya, out of generality of Africa of 1.8 million. Aside from these countries, numbers vary greatly and no country has a Baháʼí majority.

This is just a rough draft. Make sense? Or are the 2020 numbers out yet? If so maybe re-write the whole section and mind that the 2004 World Book probably isn't a good overlap. I'd welcome suggestions.Smkolins (talk) 04:04, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Smkolins, sure I like the idea of integrating the continents and countries. What you wrote looks good in general to me (though I find "religionists" a bit awkward compared to "adherents").

As far as sources, I agree that more recent would be better. The World Religion Database released 2020 numbers by country behind a paywall. I looked into this before and it looks like Misplaced Pages wouldn't allow us to include the whole list for copyright reasons, but I have access and could add the top few largest numbers. I'll have to check if they list percentages this time. For continents, there is also this 2019 article based on the World Religion Database. And probably there are other sources I'm not aware of too. Gazelle55 (talk) 15:10, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I've asked my library for a copy and they've agreed to get one. I'm to be notified when it comes in. Though with covid mucking things up I don't know when that will happen. Smkolins (talk) 19:53, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Queen Marie

Pardon, Gazelle55, about , but how does a Master of Arts thesis from the University of Arkansas count as "do not meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines for reliable sources" as you put it? Smkolins (talk) 20:33, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Smkolins, in WP:SCHOLARSHIP (which is a part of WP:RS), it says "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." I am sure there is a good source that talks about Queen Marie's conversion out there, but I think for this page in particular we want the source quality to be going up, not down. Gazelle55 (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Gazelle55, would you care to review the main article for more satisfactory sources and instead of just subtracting actually make the article better? Smkolins (talk) 00:52, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Smkolins, I appreciate your concern for improving this and other articles and the hard work you have put into improving Misplaced Pages. That said, I think we have some major differences as far as what "makes the article better". If you copy the article into your word processor you will see that the article is already long enough as per WP:SIZERULE, so expansion of content on Baha'i topics should be on the more specific pages, not necessarily a lot on this one. More to the point, I strongly believe that insisting on source quality improves the pages. Even still, I haven't gone on a blitz and removed all the unsourced or poorly sourced material from this page, because like you I would rather wait for better sources. I removed this material because it was new and it's already been noted on the talk page that this page needs cleanup to maintain its Feature Article rating.

To be clear, what I do on Baha'i pages is the same as what I do on other pages. I am interested in the topic of entheogens/psychedelics, and yet I make a point of removing sub-par sources from those pages and try to reflect the full range of scholarly opinion on the topic. If you go to psychedelic experience, the page is still not perfect, but it is a lot closer to encyclopedic than when I started—and reflects my own view less! Conversely, I have been slowly but steadily adding a lot of sources and content to Baha'i House of Worship. I was even thinking I'd like to get it to Feature Article status.

Anyway, I'll stop there. Yes, hopefully I will get to adding that in due time. As you say, there are good sources on Queen Marie's own page. Feel free to incorporate them yourself if you want them included sooner. I'm happy to switch them over to sfn after, which is a bit more mindless than doing content. Again, despite our differences of opinion, I appreciate your hard work and your desire to inform our readers as well as possible. Gazelle55 (talk) 01:20, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, was probably overreacting there. I'll see where that can fit into the article and add some material from the other page soon. Gazelle55 (talk) 19:22, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Just to close the loop on this, I couldn't find a way to fit it naturally on this page but if someone else sees a way go ahead. The problem is that since it's not totally clear whether she converted, it will take more than a quick note to talk about her neutrally, and having a longer explanation on this page is probably WP:UNDUE. So instead, I added it to History of the Baháʼí Faith. I also copied the sentence about the Samoan king there. Gazelle55 (talk) 19:51, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Symbol of Baha’i Faith

The symbol of the Baha’i Faith is the nine-pointed star, not the five-pointed star stated in the article. 2600:6C4E:1200:16A5:CC5D:B828:13F:DECE (talk) 02:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

please check the citations. The five pointed star is more officially 'the' symbol. The nine pointed star is used more casually but it is mentioned on the symbols page. Smkolins (talk) 02:51, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

“controlled-infiltrated Sect”

I removed the term “controlled-infiltrated Sect” (sic) and replaced it with “sect” and hyperlinked “relatively new religion” to New Religious Movement. I understand there is something contention around the NRM thing but that’s not really what I’m commenting on. Feel free to remove the word “sect”. I considered removing it entirely and still am. What exactly could that mean other than conspiratorial accusations of heresy? How is “controlled-inflated sect” anything other than subjective/vandalism? I very well might be missing something, so let me know or reword at will. I’m watching the page. -.+ThAYYta+.- (talk) 00:46, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

It's well documented in the note and makes it much more convoluted to read with such inclusions, aside from very pov content being mingled with sources. Also there was a fair bit of discussion bring this to a concensus how this is described. Smkolins (talk) 00:50, 17 April 2022 (UTC)