Talk:Brahma Kumaris - Misplaced Pages

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This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

The following Misplaced Pages contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

Bksimonb (talk · contribs) This user has declared a connection.

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Recent Section and image deletions

49.36.135.214, some of the edits you made recently were helpful such as removing references to the "University" to make the article consistent with the new title, just Brahma Kumaris.

However, there are some large deletions just seem a bit over the top with questionable reasons given.

"No mention of this in the Watoomull hospital's website. Stealing credit ?)" : Just because you can't personally find something on a website doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It is also referenced to Frank Whaling. The use of the name, Wattammull Memorial Trust, is giving credit to the Wattammull Memorial Trust, not "stealing" credit. Stealing credit would be if they said they built the whole thing themselves without any help from Wattammull.
"Removed section. Puffery, reliance on primary and dubious sources." : I think you are right, to some extent, about the puffery however removing the whole section is overkill. The use of primary sources is fine if the source is reliable for establishing a simple fact, i.e. a factual source that has no opinion on the Brahma Kumaris such as the UN's website, and is not advancing an opinion. You need to explain why you find the other sources "dubious". I suggest removing everything after "It is one of over 1600 accredited observer...". The rest is just simple facts and certainly doesn't fall within the definition of WP:PUFFERY.
"(Removed Logo. CONFUSION. The International and national BK organisations are different entities and foundations.)" I don't see why anyone would be confused be a logo. If you look at both the Indian and International websites you will see the same logo the only difference is that one is grey and the other is red. That's not going to cause "confusion" to anyone.
"(It is not a university. They don't call themselves a university in India after 2017.)" It is correct to remove the word "University" to be consistent with the new article title however "sect" is a word to avoid WP:LABEL. I suggest something like "organisation" to keep the tone neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bksimonb (talk • contribs) 05:11, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Hospital and UN items to be placed at start of Activites section

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at A. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

1. New proposed text for the Activities section including contributions of other two individuals. Unfortunately I was only able to use the primary source for this. Can we take it that this attribution of the Watumall brothers is considered non-controversial enough to rely on a primary source?

===Healthcare===

In 1991 the Brahama Kumaris and the brothers, Gulab and Khubchand Watumull, opened the J Watumull Global Hospital in Rajesthan which offers medical facilities to the local population.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive">{{cite book | last = Walliss | first = John | title = The Brahma Kumaris as a 'reflexive Tradition' | year = 2007 | publisher = Motilal Banarsidass | isbn = 9788120829558 }}</ref>{{rp|41}}<ref>{{cite web |title=J Watumull Global Hospital & Research Centre - About Us |url=http://www.ghrc-abu.com/home |website=www.ghrc-abu.com}}</ref>

2. I take on baord the the concerns regarding WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE however I find that since it is one sentence stating simple facts, I beleive that WP:FACTSONLY and WP:LIMITED apply here. There really aren't that many options I can see to present the facts concisly unless you have any other suggestion. I am happy to request a third opinion if this is still an issue. I am repeating the proposed edit below for readability since the previous request has already been closed.

===United Nations===

In the 1980s the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated to the Department of Public Information of the United Nations and gained consultative status with the UN Economic and Social Council and UNICEF.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive" />{{rp|41}}

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

The first proposed sentence does not take into account the 4th person instrumental in opening the hospital, Ashok Mehta. The second sentence can be sufficiently paraphrased by simply elaborating upon what is meant by the terms "became affiliated with" and "gaining consultative status", as not all readers may be familiar with United Nations' Council and Public Information Office terminology as it's applied here in this context. Regards, Spintendo 16:21, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Request edit

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at P. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

1. Here is the new text including the fourth person.

===Healthcare===

In 1991 the Brahama Kumaris, Dr Ashok Mehta and the brothers, Gulab and Khubchand Watumull, opened the J Watumull Global Hospital in Rajesthan which offers medical facilities to the local population.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive">{{cite book | last = Walliss | first = John | title = The Brahma Kumaris as a 'reflexive Tradition' | year = 2007 | publisher = Motilal Banarsidass | isbn = 9788120829558 }}</ref>{{rp|41}}<ref>{{cite web |title=J Watumull Global Hospital & Research Centre - About Us |url=http://www.ghrc-abu.com/home |website=www.ghrc-abu.com}}</ref>

2. "consultative status" and "affiliated with" would be legally defined by the UN to describe a particular type of association an organisation can have with them. These phrases are also in common use in any literature about the UN or organisations associated with the UN. I believe that trying to elaborate or define these terms here would misrepresent and obfuscate the legal association being described and is beyond the scope of this article. If you are still not in agreement then I suggest we invite a third opinion.

Bksimonb (talk) 07:26, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Reply 14-JUL-2019

Edit request partially implemented

Y The information concerning the J Watumull Global Hospital was added. These added claims were identified in the text as pertaining to the Sirohi district of Rajasthan, a location which was incorrectly identified in the edit request as "Rajesthan".
N If the terms "consultative status" and "affiliated with" are in as common a use as earlier described, the COI editor is invited to add the WikiLinks for these exact common terms to their edit request.

Regards, Spintendo 13:10, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for actioning first edit.

I can find a Wikilink for "consultative status". However I can't "alleviated with" defined anywhere. So the best proposal I can come up with is

===United Nations===

In the 1980s the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated to the Department of Public Information of the United Nations and gained ] with the UN Economic and Social ::Council and UNICEF.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive" />{{rp|41}}

I don't fully understand why the bar for inclusion has been raised as high as it has for this sentence. I don't see how the sentence presents any WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE risk to Misplaced Pages since it is only one sentence and is only stating facts. The only remaining concern now, as I understand it, is the use of the word "affiliated" which means something like "officially connected with", although "affiliated" is the word most often used in Misplaced Pages articles concerning the UN, such as United Nations System, List of specialized agencies of the United Nations and List of specialized agencies of the United Nations. These articles all use the word without any WikiLink or expansion of the phrase. Perhaps we can agree on the following text?

===United Nations===

In the 1980s the Brahma Kumaris formed an official connection with the Department of Public Information of the United Nations and gained ] with the UN Economic and Social ::Council and UNICEF.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive" />{{rp|41}}

Thanks,

Bksimonb (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, a claim of being "affiliated with" is a term that is open to wide interpretation. The Brahma Kumaris article is not about the UN, so claims that the "affiliated" term is a word most often used in Misplaced Pages articles concerning the UN is moot. Changing the claim to "official connection" doesn't solve the problem. These claims needs to be assiduously defined in order to prevent misinterpretation. When exactly were these claims made? In the 1980's is not very specific. In what year were they made? Who was it who laid out these distinctions? Which part of the UN did these people who made these distinctions belong to? You've mentioned that they belonged to the Department of Public Information, but a WikiLink to that department has not been provided. Also, what was their reasoning behind the making of these distinctions? I'm sure you'd agree that if such a claim is to be made in the article, that all of these questions deserve answers in the article. Giving those answers will help to make a more complete section of the article where the text is to be added. If the "official connection" gained was owing directly to the consultative status being achieved, then the wording needs to be rephrased to state that "In the 1980s the Brahma Kumaris formed an official connection with the UN Economic and Social Council and UNICEF by gaining consultative status." Regards, Spintendo 14:44, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Just to recap, the original text from the Walliss reference (p41) is, "In the 1980s it became affiliated to the Department of Public Information of the United Nations (1980) and gained consultitive status with the UN Economic and Social Council (1983) and UNICEF (1988)". From the secondary source we can see three events with dates given. I suggest we drop my "official connection" suggestion to describe "affiliation" since it seems to be opening another can of worms.

The secondary sources I've seen, such as Walliss, describing the Brahma Kumaris' relation to the UN tend to be a bit dated and terse on the matter.

Here is a proposal containing WikiLinks and dates for all UN and departments involved. Is this any closer to what we are aiming at?

===United Nations===

In 1980 the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated to the ] of the ] and gained ] with the ] in 1983 and with ] in 1988.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive" />{{rp|41}}

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 14:54, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

The Walliss source doesn't state that the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated, rather, it states that the "University" became affiliated. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is between the "Brahma Kumaris" and "the University", as those terms are used by Walliss. Regards, Spintendo 01:18, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The full name of the Brahma Kumaris, in the UK where Walliss did his research, is the "Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University". This used to be the article title. The article name was abbreviated because there are variations to the name internationally with the only commonality being the words "Brahma Kumaris". Also "Brahma Kumaris" is the common name referred to by most of the sources listed at the end of the article and by the Brahma Kumaris itself on its own website.

Perhaps the article should mention the full name somewhere but a recent IP editor removed any remaining traces.

When Walliss refers to the "University" it is an abbreviation of the same. The first time he introduces the abbreviation in his book is on page x of the Introduction:

"...to examine the Brahma Kumaris World University along three main axes.

In chapters three and four, I focus on the emergence and historical development of both the University and its theodicy".

Hope that helps clarify.

Regards Bksimonb (talk) 11:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for that clarification. The claims regarding the UN that Walliss makes have not been confirmed by any sources originating from the UN. As Walliss does not footnote the claims in their publication, it seems to be only their word to take for this. I find it hard to believe that the UN would not have any documents verifying this. Because the claim involves the UN, and because the claim is one of "affiliation" with the UN, the provided sources should also originate from the UN just to be sure. That would go a long way towards answering the questions I raised earlier about who in the UN made these distinctions and why, as well as fulfilling the principals set forth in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris whereby an expectation was set by the Arbitration Committee to convert the article from its present state based on original research and BK publications to an article containing verifiable information based on reliable third party sources. I believe that is the last obstacle remaining in the way of implementing this claim. Regards, Spintendo 12:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Getting lists of NGOs is indeed a challenge. So far I managed to come up with a database entry from the "Department of Economic and Social Affairs" website. Unfortunately this doesn't directly relate to the exact dates and claims from Walliss, but it does show that the BK has at least some association with the UN and isn't making it all up. I also found this document from the UN that confirms General Consultative status with ECOSOC and Department of Public Information.

Another document I found was published by the BK themselves but hosted on a UN website. At the end of the document it lists all the associations with the UN. Although a self-published source, do you agree that it is reasonable to assume that the UN would not have allowed its publication on their own website if it was making false claims regarding the BKs relationships with the UN?

I will keep searching for more direct links to the 1980s links to the UN unless we can use any of the above to either support Walliss's claim or rewrite the claim to use only the claim supported by the Department of Economic and Social Affairs link.

If you prefer the option to limit the claim to only the one supported by the UN website instead of supporting Walliss's statement, then I propose the following edit:

In 1998 the Brahma Kumaris gained ] with the ] <ref>{{cite web|url=https://esango.un.org/civilsociety/simpleSearch.do?method=search&searchTypeRedef=simpleSearch&sessionCheck=false&searchType=simpleSearch&organizationNamee=brahma+kumaris|access-date=16 July 2019|language=English|title=United Nations  Civil Society Participation – General}}</ref>

Unfortunately the URL is a database search rather than the actual result of the search. I wasn't able to get a shareable link of the entry itself that I could use for Misplaced Pages or archive.org.

Let me know which of the UN hosted sources, if any, I have found so far have any mileage. I can then perhaps make an edit proposal that incorporates them.

Regards Bksimonb (talk) 15:34, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for carrying out this search, it's most appreciated. I think the two documents you provided are perfectly acceptable for the revised claim. I'm sorry but in all the back and forth I've forgotten where it was that you wanted this claim placed, if you could remind me, i'll place it in the article. Thanks! Spintendo 23:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Implemented I've placed this claim under the Activities section as originally requested, along with UN documentation verifying the claims. Regards, Spintendo 03:21, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Brahma Kumaris

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

Remedy 3 of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris, "article probation", is hereby terminated.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 18:33, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Brahma Kumaris

Spammers promoting their website(s)?

A user, Shiv Baba Service (now blocked), replaced the BK website URLs several times. After they were blocked, IP users began doing the same thing. Not quite sure why, unless it's just self-promotion of a site, but I'm changing them back until the miscreants say something. It looks like this has been going on for a year or more... — UncleBubba 20:19, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

UncleBubba, longer, I think. It looks like it's either a splinter group, or it's just a website run by someone trying to capitalize on their name. It's not used anywhere on Misplaced Pages (nor should it), so it's possibly a candidate (along with the other sites that redirect there) for either the revert list or spam black list. Ravensfire (talk) 21:37, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Ravensfire, agreed; that's an appropriate way to deal with it. Folks who add crap to pages for personal gain are really annoying to me, especially when they come back when they think you're not looking. Let's keep an eye on it over the next few weeks/months. Thanks! — UncleBubba 22:07, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Ravensfire, OK, that's even better. You seem to have even less patience with this stuff than I do. GREAT! Thanks! — UncleBubba 22:20, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Please also consider this recent insertion of another personal site. Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 12:55, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

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