Talk:Michael Collins (Irish leader)

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S.M. Sigerson

What makes this person any kind of authority on the death of Michael Collins? Their book appears to be self-published thus failing WP:SPS, so I intend to remove it unless evidence of reliability can be provided. I note @Scolaire: was particularly scathing regarding this person at Talk:Michael Collins (Irish leader)/Archive 3#Killed. FDW777 (talk) 23:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

I have removed this book. FDW777 (talk) 12:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Terrorist

Shouldn't the article mention the fact that he was a terrorist? (JamesFergus1 (talk) 13:09, 21 November 2020 (UTC))

Do you have a source? WP:UNSOURCED ~ Ablaze (talk) 06:12, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-11-mn-5909-story.html (JamesFergus1 (talk) 12:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC))

One sentence - "To some he was a freedom fighter, to others a terrorist" - from a thirty year old American newspaper cannot be used as a source to state Collins was a terrorist. Please read up on some Misplaced Pages policies: WP:V, WP:RS, WP:DUE, WP:NPOV and WP:TERRORIST would be good starting points. Bastun 15:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

There are numerous other sources: https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/COLLINS-TERRORIST-AS-HERO-3117609.php (JamesFergus1 (talk) 21:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

So after your thirty year old American newspaper is objected to you respond with a film review from a 24 year old America newspaper? Laughable. FDW777 (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Collins died a century ago. Why does it matter how old the sources are? (JamesFergus1 (talk) 21:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

Age is irrelevant. A film review is a reference for a film, not the subject of a film. FDW777 (talk) 21:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I see you also didn't bother with the links @Bastun: left for you. In particular I suggest you read WP:TERRORIST, especially the part about in-text attribution being required. I also suggest you read WP:LEAD, especially how the lead summarises the article so doesn't (or shouldn't, just in case this lead isn't currently 100% compliant) include things not mentioned elsewhere. FDW777 (talk) 21:45, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

The lede of Osama bin Laden's article says he was described as a terrorist, so there should be mention of this in the article on Michael Collins. He deliberately chose not to fight using conventional methods, despite the objections of de Valera. (JamesFergus1 (talk) 22:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC))

Contents of one article are not determined by contents of another, but by Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. FDW777 (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Would anyone object if the book references were converted to Harvard style citations? An example of how they work can be see at Battle of Pontvallain#References. At the moment they are a complete mish-mash of different formats, so it's impossible to even say which, if any, is the current style used in this article.

Also, there are many references that need to be removed. I do not feel like delving through the history to see who is responsible, but it appears that whoever was responsible cited the primary sources that were cited by the secondaryu sources (that's books, generally speaking). That's why there are citations with insufficient information such as;

British Cabinet minutes, memoranda
MC official correspondence, 5 and 10 April 1922
Michael Collins letter to Churchill 6 June 1922
Michael Collins – Winston Churchill correspondence June 1922
Public Records Office, Dublin
Michael Collins field diary, 22 August 1922

The penultimate one is particularly egregious, how is anyone supposed to know what they are looking for?? FDW777 (talk) 22:07, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

No objection here - consistent formatting would be an improvement. Bastun 00:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. WP:WHENINROME does say consensus is required before changing from one style to another, so thought it safest to raise the issue here first. FDW777 (talk) 07:52, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

A few minor amendments

I have made some amendments to a single paragraph to remove any bias or presumption of motive. As follows:

From: Collins and his Squad killed several British secret service agents in a series of coordinated raids. To: Collins and his Squad killed several people in a series of coordinated raids, including a number of British secret service agents Reason: Not all the of those killed were members of Cairo gang and at least one was just a member of public.

From: In retaliation, members of the Royal Irish Constabulary To: Members of the Royal Irish Constabulary Reason: This is a presumption of motive given by IRA propaganda at the time.

From: A stampede of panicking British operatives To: Many British operatives Reason: This is not a NPOV statement.

146.90.71.194 (talk) 16:33, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion to Editors of This Page

One of the paragraphs in the article references Michael Collins' election as a "Teachta Dála" in 1918, although An Dáil Éireann was formed in 1919. Would it not be more suitable to change the statement to "he was elected an MP, later serving as a TD after the forming of the Dáil Éireann on 21 January, 1919" This is just a suggestiom, I may be wrong which is why I will leave this to any editors and experts on the subject. 85.208.36.24 (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Good point, thank you. Terminology tweaked to clear this up Billsmith60 (talk) 20:15, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

"Michael Collins (Irish leader" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Michael Collins (Irish leader has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3 § Michael Collins (Irish leader until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 18:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

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