Talk:Zeitgeist (film series)

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 19:21, 15 October 2024 (Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Zeitgeist (film series)/Archive 5) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 19:21, 15 October 2024 by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) (Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Zeitgeist (film series)/Archive 5) (bot)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Zeitgeist (film series) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Text and/or other creative content from this version of The Zeitgeist Movement was copied or moved into Zeitgeist (film series) with this edit on 2 December 2014. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Film: Documentary / American

	Film portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Film. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the guidelines.FilmWikipedia:WikiProject FilmTemplate:WikiProject Filmfilm
	This article is supported by the Documentary films task force.
	This article is supported by the American cinema task force.

Skepticism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Media franchises Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Media franchises, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics related to media franchises on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Media franchisesWikipedia:WikiProject Media franchisesTemplate:WikiProject Media franchisesmedia franchise
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

United States: Cinema Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article is supported by WikiProject Film - American cinema task force (assessed as Low-importance).

If you are a member or affiliate of the Zeitgeist movement, or were called here by one, please read this introduction on how to change the article.

Archives

Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3
Archive 4	Archive 5

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Lead expand

Slade Farney you reverted the article saying the reliable source was a 404. Assuming your computer is not working correctly I reverted you. The description is from a reliable mainstream source. link to article Earl King Jr. (talk) 05:08, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

King, the http://gentlemachineproductions.com/ link was a 404 when I tested it. You can believe it or not -- it took me to the underlying service provider, bluehost. As for "apocalyptic cult" that is utter nonsense. Zeitgeist has nothing to do with the Bible or with a doomsday cult. That columnist is totally out of control. If you want to quote her, don't do it in Misplaced Pages's words -- no other source agrees with her on that point and you are engaging in WP:UNDUE. Grammar's Li'l Helper 05:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

No. Remember you brought that Tablet magazine source to the reliable sources notice board and they approved it as a reliable source Slade? They also admonished you at the time for bickering on and on about their results. That citation is as good as the Newyork Times citation as to quality. When you say, that columnist is totally out of control I am afraid that because you just don't like it that you removed it. As a Misplaced Pages editor can you prove that that mainstream writer Michelle Goldberg is totally out of control or are you making some kind of putdown which reflects your opinion? She is a reliable source. Excerpt from the information Over the last two weeks, Zeitgeist: Moving Forward, the third in a series of apocalyptic cult documentaries, has been screening around the world, translated by devotees of the so-called Zeitgeist movement into more than 30 languages. There were engagements in Buenos Aires and Athens, Sarajevo and Tel Aviv, Mumbai and Tokyo, among hundreds of other cities. In the United States, it showed at indie movie houses, underground bookstores, public libraries, and universities from coast to coast, including a five-day run at New York’s Tribeca Cinemas. and link . Earl King Jr. (talk) 05:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Being a reliable source does not excuse WP:UNDUE. It is just one opinion, and it does not agree with the other RSs. That particular opinion is just WP:FRINGE. It ain't even true -- there is no cool-aid in Zeitgeist Movement. So you need multiple secondary sources. See WP:REDFLAG: Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. Grammar's Li'l Helper 06:27, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Truth has nothing to do with anything about a reliable source. Its not an exceptional claim. It is what a notable author is saying about a subject in the category is about. There are lots of sources that say it is a cult. There is no good reason to pile sources onto this when this one does fine. Could you say why you are against this Marker article and its author beyond saying it is not true? No. Editors on Misplaced Pages are not reliable about judging cool-aid, or Waco or the Holocaust etc unless they are published experts or otherwise notable. Earl King Jr. (talk) 07:24, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Have a look at Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style/Film and WP:UNDUE. There is absolutely no basis or justification for stressing one editorial opinion over another in an article, and such opinions definitely don't belong in the lede. Goldberg's allegations are a minority view, and there doesn't appear to be much agreement out there to support the claims of antisemitism and "apocalyptic cult" ideology. Laval (talk) 07:36, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

If course truth qualifies a source. If a source is obviously and demonstrably wrong, we don't use it. You have only one angry source calling Zeitgeist "apocalyptic" -- and that is a very eccentric description. No agreement from other sources. You need multiple high-quality sources. Grammar's Li'l Helper 07:45, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Calling all editing buddy's does not change things and editors giving their non notable opinions does not change things. Your opinion about her does not change things. Its a reliable source and numerous other reliable sources could be used to confirm that tandem editing aside. We know from many sources it uses antisemitic conspiracy theory as the very basis. Would you care to comment as Slade Farney on that? Earl King Jr. (talk) 11:02, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

This is long past time to stop casting aspersions so just stop it. Your current statement in Wiki voice that Zeitgeist is an "apocalyptic" cult is bizarre and WP:UNDUE. I doubt Joseph could even spell the word or know what it means. The Apocalypse is from the Bible, and Joseph is not. Time to stop the foolery. 16:59, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Can't be bothered to read all this, but the RSN on Tablet was for its use a criticism, for that it is a perfectly valid pov, which I would defend. Using the same criticism for a factual description of the films in the lead sentence is undue and is contrary to the RfC of around the same time, which concluded 'documentary'. If you want to add 'apocalyptic cult' attributed, among criticism, that's fine by me. Pincrete (talk) 19:29, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

O.K. added it to the movement section toward the bottom. No reason to start a criticism section I suppose when critical ideas can just be a part of the article. The article by Goldberg makes it clear that the movement is born out of the initial couple of movies and other sources tell us they are conspiracy films. As to Slade Farney saying it has nothing to do with the bible he is obviously wrong as the categories at the bottom of the article include things like, 9/11 conspiracy theories Bible conspiracy theories, Christ myth theory etc. Earl King Jr. (talk) 04:06, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages article is not a source for the content on the Misplaced Pages article. Maybe you put that category there yourself -- who knows? Regardless, Zeitgeist is not a Biblical movement and has nothing to do with the Apocalypse. Your source Goldblat is just wrong. It goes against her credibility. She has no support in other sources. Grammar's Li'l Helper 05:34, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

No I did not put any categories there. Zeitgeist is an anti biblical movement obviously. Goldblat is right on target. Who is Goldblat. I assume you are not joking. Michelle is super notable in many publications. I assume you do not want to somehow be an expert on this subject? Have you published something on in mainstream circles? It is not a revisionist history forum for you to question her, put her down, make fun of her as you have done above and before. Earl King Jr. (talk) 07:40, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I moved the comment about the films up and amended so that 'movement' section is abou movement, btw her name is Goldberg and 'apocalyptic' doesn't only mean 'related to the Apocalypse'. Pincrete (talk) 10:26, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Quoting all three complete definitions from the Random House Dictionary:

1 of or like an apocalypse; affording a revelation or prophecy. (does not apply to Zeitgeist)

2 pertaining to the Apocalypse or biblical book of Revelation. (does not apply to Zeitgeist)

3 predicting or presaging imminent disaster and total or universal destruction: (does not apply to Zeitgeist)

What does the editor who wrote it think it means? Grammar's Li'l Helper 20:59, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Ask her! Pincrete (talk) 23:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I just did. You echoed her edit, what do you think it means? Grammar's Li'l Helper 23:44, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It means what it means.

"1. the complete final destruction of the world, especially as described in the biblical book of Revelation. (especially in the Vulgate Bible) the book of Revelation. 2. an event involving destruction or damage on an awesome or catastrophic scale. "a stock market apocalypse"

Zeitgeist is a apocalypse/doomsday cult according to Goldberg and she backs up her theory on this.

The movie franchise certainly depicts a financial apocalypse unless the Zeitgeist/Movement/Peter Joseph is followed. Even Misplaced Pages which is not a reliable source for anything understands the meaning of this Greek word apocalypse Link to basic definition So lets move on. Earl King Jr. (talk) 05:22, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

And "cult" means hidden, so Zeitgeist is a secret cult that believes it has the truth revealed of global disaster revealed in divine revelations? That ladyfriend of yours really has her ear to the ground. Now you will back up her odd-ball view of the world with multiple high-quality sources. As we both know, Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. See WP:REDFLAG. Grammar's Li'l Helper 06:01, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Zeitgeist is all about the Illuminati secret cabal of international bankers controlling the world and leading us all to oblivion. Peter Joseph is all about saving us through originally the Venus Project and now something else. I know Slade Farney has his own views on Jewish history and Zeitgeist is tangled up in those issues, but maybe you should lay off the name calling of that writer and lay off the tendentious page pronouncements. Its wasting time. Earl King Jr. (talk) 06:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Re "what do you think she means?", something like dark, angst-ridden, excessively dramatically, foreboding. Or else she is being hyperbolic, which of course no-one could accuse Zeitgeist of being! Pincrete (talk) 21:10, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Goldberg can be as hyperbolic as she wishes to be, so long as the opinion is attributed. Reviewers aren't 'wrong' or 'right'. No interest in getting involved with comments about other editors either way. Pincrete (talk) 19:37, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Merge in The Zeitgeist Movement

Oppose - Not only do the articles flow better as separate pieces, there is enough notable information for two articles. Jonpatterns (talk) 18:05, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

There is clearly no interest in merging, so I've removed the merge tags from both articles. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:11, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

11 "conspiracy theories"

I don't know why its necessary to use this term so often. It is a pejorative term which has little usefulness in an objective encyclopedia. Are there any objections if I cull the number of times it's used in the article back to 5 or 6? Nocturnalnow (talk) 21:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Interestingly, the term is used only once in the Zeitgeist Movement. I wonder how that difference can be reconciled? Source usage perhaps but seems arbitrary and weird, to me, at least. Nocturnalnow (talk) 21:23, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Why would the films and the movement use the term equally? Most usages in this article relate to reviews, so I don't see how you can remove those without removing those reviews. Pincrete (talk) 22:10, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Our job, I think, is not to use the exact wording in the sources, but to edit the content to make the article more encyclopedic. We can still use content from all the reviews but without using the exact same term 11 times. It is much too repetitive, for 1 thing, imo. I'll just see what I can do with it in a day or so and you can see if you like my rephrasing. Nocturnalnow (talk) 05:14, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I feel like this topic is presented in a very negative fashion that definitely seems to be leaning in the direction of making Zeitgeist in general sound like all conspiracy theory and nonsensical.

I see for the very first movie there is a long list of reviewers almost all of which are completely negative. and the second two movies there's hardly any. and just in general feels like the topic is presented in a negative light. and whether it's right or wrong Misplaced Pages is supposed to show things in a non-biased sort of way. but in my reading of the article it definitely seems biased towards making it sound like Zeitgeist is just nonsense. I've looked and there are lots more people who have reviewed these movies who have painted it in a good light or non-negative light but seems none of those are referenced. and while I get a lot of the first movies stuff is very controversial. the second two are more of a perspective kind of a thing and so I really honestly feel like if it hasn't been done that each one of these movies should be presented on its own page. I've also found quite a few sources that I find to be credible they would make the claim that the USA is now a plutocracy. and I don't see any information from any of those sources on here. I mean come on we live in a country where corporations are people and can donate vast sums of money to politicians. how many politicians are in office now that used to be in banking or in some corporate sector upper management. so point being is I thought the goal of Misplaced Pages was to be unbiased and in partial and this doesn't seem like that. Mrgrimfate (talk) 04:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

This isn't an article on whether the US is a plutocracy, and as such, any general discussion on that would be off-topic. As for Misplaced Pages policy on neutrality, I'd recommend reading Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view and Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. We aren't supposed to aim for some entirely imaginary absolute neutrality, but rather to reflect the balance of opinion amongst appropriate sources. Picking sources just because they agreed with the films perspective would be improper. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:23, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Categories: