Talk:2024 Magdeburg car attack

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"Musk claimed that "Only the Alternative for Germany (AfD) can save Germany" in a post on X"

That was before it turned out that the perpetrator was a AfD and Musk fanboy, and AFAIR even before the attack itself. It should be changed accordingly.

As it is written, it seems to be a reaction after the attack, and after the perp's social-media history became public. (IIRC Musk gave the cited statement before the attack, and afterwards reacted by accusing Chancellor Scholz of lame-duckism, and then the perp's political leaning and social-media habits were revealed and I am not aware if Musk has said anything on the issue since - which is probably wise, since the perp repeatedly cited Musk to "justify" his murderous agenda.) 2A0A:A547:22A4:0:C9BE:3FA8:1520:B410 (talk) 19:51, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The opinion of Musk, a private citizen, is irrelevant. Removed from article. Please gain consensus before re-adding. WWGB (talk) 01:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I support the inclusion of Musk's opinion, he is a prominent billionaire enterprenuer, political donor, activist and conspiracy theorist. I mean, come on, he is one of the richest and most politically powerful men in the world. His opinion is included in 2024 British riots too. Theofunny (talk) 15:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I also support including Musk’s comments. They’ve been extensively covered by RS. Bondegezou (talk) 16:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't support including Musk's opinion because there isn't enough to directly connect him to the story. The criteria used to include his comments could apply to many individuals. However, I do acknowledge that his opinion, along with those of some others, is interesting.

I suggest creating a new section under "Responses" for prominent individuals. Maybe "Prominent Individuals" :D PubliusPretoria (talk) 08:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

He responded to the story by claiming that the migrants anti-Islam advocacy was a "scam". Musk's response has received significant coverage in RS. Firecat93 (talk) 15:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

He is sufficiently connected to the story by virtue of being an influential figure on the side that the perpetrator has also belonged to, and by virtue of him spreading disinformation about the incident. 46.97.170.199 (talk) 16:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Viktor Orbán's response

Viktor Orbán, the prime minister of Hungary, vowed to "fight back" against open border policies after stating that there is a connection behind illegal immigration to western Europe and terrorist attacks.

The cited article () doesn't seem to contain any information related to Viktor.

"Magdeburg Christmas market attack suspect faces murder charges". The Guardian. December 22, 2024.

内存溢出的猫 (talk) 21:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

This news article seems to have been edited by someone. It is very different from what it was a day ago. SolxrgashiUnited (talk) 15:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Done: new citation has been added. SolxrgashiUnited (talk) 15:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The source said nothing about illegal immigration and I've corrected it. In the source, Orban opposes migration full stop. It never said illegal once. Put it this way: if he's saying the EU politicians are allowing too many immigrants, their entrance to Europe was not illegal. I don't know if this was a subconscious transplant from the editor's own country's politics, but many European right-wing leaders aren't just going to accept Muslims just because their passports were stamped correctly. Unknown Temptation (talk) 10:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Should we add a greater emphasis on Taqiyya in his motive?

Currently, the suspected perpetrator is described as Islamophobic. Would it be appropriate to state that this is disputed, and that many argue that he is a Muslim who practiced Taqiyya to hide his religion? Is this a fringe view? Would like to hear Misplaced Pages's thoughts.

Thanks! JohnR1Roberts (talk) 21:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is indeed a fringe view. The people pushing this narrative are ignoring explicit statements by this guy, and projecting their own narratives onto him, b/c it undermines their politics. There is no evidence that he was "secretly muslim" or whatever, but plenty of evidence that he was anti muslim as stated by the authorities themselves. Midgetman433 (talk) 01:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Islamic attackers aren't known for hiding their religion. We should have a section in this wiki and Taleb Al-Abdulmohsen clarifying the meaning of Taqiyya - hiding one's beliefs to avoid torture or getting killed (most Muslims don't even know it) and debunking claims - including the out-of-context sarcastic Hamas comment. I will add a sub-section since I am too inexperience with wiki to write long paragraphs Cherry567 (talk) 09:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Why aren't we taking in account his cultural background and nature of the attack? Whether or not he said it, he was influenced by Islamic extremism. Treating such incidents separate from each other is disingenuous to the problem that Islamic fundamentalism poses. 62.80.225.198 (talk) 13:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It is not the job of Misplaced Pages to "solve the problem of Islamic fundementalism" Trade (talk) 13:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's focus is to document events and inform people. It's good to highlight why such incidents happen. Criminal background, failed integration, cultural upbringing of the attacker/s. Even if they claim to be non-religious, this attack was no different from ISIS. 62.80.225.198 (talk) 13:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

When white atheist shoot a school we don’t run around speculating Christian influence. We will do the same here Cherry567 (talk) 08:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Islamic theocracy is enforced on a state level in a dozen Muslim countries, including the country the attacker is from. There is also this small, little problem called Jihad, which caused numerous terror attacks in the Middle East, as well as in Europe. People seem to forget critical thinking when it comes to Islam. 62.80.225.198 (talk) 10:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Our focus is to accurately summarize what reliable sources say. If most (reliable) sources are including such a topic about his upbringing, then we should add it. If they are not, we shouldn't.

It's not up to us to decide how much did growing up in Saudi Arabia affect him to influence his actions. Gue101 (talk) 05:10, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Sarcastic? That man was threatening an actual pro-Israeli Arab. I've checked who he was responding to. He's also been found to support Omar Abdulaziz and ISIS. In addition, many ex-Muslims have accused him of threatening ex-Muslims. We can't suppress this information. Linkin Prankster (talk) 15:53, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not stopping you from spreading this information Trade (talk) 19:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Thing is I added that, but people keep removing it. Linkin Prankster (talk) 07:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Proof? With original tweet only Cherry567 (talk) 11:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

No, it would not be appropriate. Firecat93 (talk) 19:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

CCTV footage

May need renamed; I forgot to enter a name when uploading it.

As with Killing of Brian Thompson, I have also obtained the CCTV footage of this incident. Should it be included? E_F 15:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

In my view, this would not be appropriate (WP:WIAE)

Firecat93 (talk) 19:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Why not? We also depicts Thompsons death Trade (talk) 19:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What encyclopedic benefit would including a video of a car ramming into a group of civilians have? The 2016 Berlin truck attack article does not have a similar video. Also, is this video publicly licensed? Firecat93 (talk) 19:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a visual representation of the attack that you don't get with just text. There was a discussion at the Thompson article, all users agreed it is encyclopedic and benefits the article. Yes, under PD-automated, we are legally allowed to host it; the Berlin one doesn't have a video because no known free video exists. See Charlottesville car attack, which has a video. E_F 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What does the video add that the phrase "a car was driven into a crowd" fails to convey? -- DeFacto (talk). 20:45, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What color was the car? How many people were standing there? What did the surrounding buildings look like? Did people start running? Did the car blow up? Did anyone fly off the hood? What direction down the road was the car moving? Did the car crash into a building? I find it interesting that nobody has an issue with the CCTV still being in the infobox, yet there's such a pushback against the video. E_F 21:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, let me rephrase that question... What, of encyclopaedic value, does the video add that could not be conveyed by adding a few words to the prose? I'm sure that those things you mentioned could all be covered in a few words if we thought they added encyclopaedic value. And BTW, I'm undecided as to whether the video adds value, which is why I'm asking the questions. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

As stated above. Most of those things likely don't have reliable sources to back them up, hence why a visual of the attack would be beneficial. And if that isn't enough, one other wiki already uses the video. E_F 21:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the things that aren't covered in reliable sources are simply not relevant to the incident. Perhaps including the video is to simply pander to the ghoulish desire of some people to watch such videos, rather than to add any real value to article. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:44, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

So gore is the issue. Misplaced Pages is not censored. E_F 22:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What issue? How does that relate to censorship? The question here is whether that video adds value to the article, not whether Wiki policy allows it to be added to an article. If it adds encyclopaedic value then it should be added, otherwise why would we want to add it? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It adds no value to the article. Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid. Firecat93 (talk) 22:44, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@Firecat93, can you imagine a situation where a video might add value to an article? -- DeFacto (talk). 23:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, of course I can. The videos embedded in the article about the September 11 attacks add value, as 9/11 was a unique, historic, and distinctive tragedy. I would, however be opposed to adding videos of every shooting and terrorist attack. Firecat93 (talk) 23:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@DeFacto Videos of a distinctive natural disaster, such as a volcano eruption, would also be relevant and add value. I don't believe adding graphic videos of car rammings adds any value. Firecat93 (talk) 00:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I've given you reasons above why it should be added, and you're discounting them. "Perhaps the things that aren't covered in reliable sources are simply not relevant to the incident" makes zero sense; why don't I also go remove the CCTV still and every other photo in the article since it adds nothing. E_F 22:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm struggling to understand the encyclopaedic value of being able to see stuff that reliable sources don't give due weight to by including in their prose. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What else is there to say? It's a video of the incident. Why shouldn't the video be in the article? Again, with the "prose" rationale, I might as well remove every single image from the article, since they can all be summed up with prose. E_F 23:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE (which generally appplies to videos too): each image in an article should have a clear and unique illustrative purpose. I don't think we've found that to be the case with this video yet. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm at 50-50 or less on including the video. The fact that it has been sourced from a shock site tells you a lot.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Where else was I supposed to get it from? News sites don't typically publish those kind of videos. Anyways, I'll step back for now as to avoid potential escalation. E_F 17:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Punctuation fix

Punctuation fix for Heading Responses Subheading Misinformation: Other sources falsely claimed that the perpetrator had come to Germany as a Syrian refugee during the 2015 European migrant crisis.

FIX: Other sources falsely claimed that the perpetrator had come to Germany as a Syrian refugee during the 2015 European migrant crisis.

Double spacing after other, posting here due to previous IP ban and do not wish to get into trouble. EmiliaPains24 (talk) 14:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Dubious Article

My god. This whoe article is - gelinde gesagt - speculation up until misinformation. Please take an example of the German Article. Until the official sources, especially prosecutors have more decisive evidence, we should not engage in political specualtion. Especially since he declared himself as a "leftist" and also hosted a website that helped migrants take money from the government with fake stories. Pastelfa (talk) 15:38, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

One of the key differences is that foreign media organizations have been able to identify Taleb Al-Abdulmohsen as the accused person, which the German media has not been allowed to do due to German privacy law. This has led to foreign news organizations examining things that he has said and done in the past. But I agree that we don't know the exact motive, which is made clear in the lead section.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

He said that as a leftist, he came to know that the left are the worst criminals on the whole planet. Theofunny (talk) 19:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

You also engaged in a blatant POV by claiming that the "SPD" (which you emphasized in the edit) interior minister described him as Islamophobe and not the authorities but she mentioned it a lot of times that the authorities can confirm and the sources do too. Theofunny (talk) 19:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

This lede has been kept after a lot of additions and removals for neutrality so you better explain your reasons behind doing so. Theofunny (talk) 19:41, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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