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Soviet occupation denialism

Zero google hits. Please delete politically-motivated original research with neo-Nazi overtones. This sort of OR brings WP into disrepute. --Ghirla 08:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

How many 'votes' do you want Ghirlandajo? Nick mallory 09:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
What do you talk about? --Ghirla 09:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
You're googling it wrong. The search of yields around 19,600 hits. (Note the subtraction of Palestine-related issues. Also note that this particular search string also subtracts every article explicitly comparing Soviet occupation denialism to Holocaust denialism, so the actual number of relevant articles is greater. Also also note that a great number of studies of this phenomenon has been done in languages other than English, and that identification of denialism as a distinct phenomenon is relatively new and, as such, not explicitly mentioned in many of them.)
And if you expand your field of search even further, you will get ten times more. None of your finds has any bearing to "Soviet occupation denialism", a neologism you coined a few hours ago. --Ghirla 09:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I did not coin it, I translated it. The original I used is okupatsiooni eitamine, to wit: . Digwuren 10:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
We write an encyclopaedia in English, not in some obscure dialiect you quote. You should go with established terms in English scholarly discourse, rather than coining them when inspiration strikes. --Ghirla 10:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Your ethnic insult is noted and forgiven. Digwuren 12:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, your assertion of "neo-Nazi overtones" have clearly no bearing whatsoever to this article. Digwuren 09:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
If the phenomenon is or becomes notable, as is the phenomenon of Soviet occupation denial, certainly. It does not matter that extremist websites might quote Misplaced Pages on that. Your implication to the contrary constitutes appeal to consequences, a logical fallacy. Digwuren 10:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
There is no evidence that the phenomenon is notable or "comparable to Holocaust denial" as you term it. The Soviet Union officially condemned and denounced the secret protocol to the Soviet-German Treaty. President Putin repeatedly referred to that act to underscore his position on the issue. If you have something more to say on the subject, please go to Soviet-German Pact, rather than inventing or "translating" new terms of inflammatory nature. --Ghirla 10:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep The title is a bit clumsy but it's a legitimate topic and indeed the crux of the current dispute between Russia and Estonia. The Baltic states were invaded, annexed and occupied by the Soviet Union and there's nothing 'neo nazi' about acknowledging that fact. The Russians still see themselves as liberators of the countries they occupied and are genuinely amazed that this position isn't held by the native populations of those countries. The place to sort out a NPOV on this is the article's talk page, not AfD. It can't just be subsumed into articles on Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania because it's also applicable to the Ukraine, Georgia, Czech Republic, Poland, East Germany etc etc. Nick mallory 09:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Not sure what to say about the AfD yet, but can someone point out the alleged Neo-Nazi Overtones to me? This may very well be my own ignorance, but I can't really pinpoint them. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic: I apologize if my tone offends.) Charlie 09:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
All that talk about "denials" (e.g., Holodomor denial) involves belittling of the Holocaust and the Holocaust denial, because it basically implies that the Holocaust is comparable to some other events in history. We know it is the fictitious under-pinning to the present anti-Russian campaign to rewrite history so that the Commies were much, much wickeder than the Nazis and their sympathizers. --Ghirla 10:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The USSR saw its 'liberation' of the Baltic states from the Nazis as its justification for everything that followed. This ignores the fact that the USSR invaded and annexed the Baltic states in 1940 when the USSR was allied with Nazi Germany as part of the Nazi Soviet pact. The USSR also attacked Finland and Poland before Hitler turned on his former allies in 1941. Nick mallory 09:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
You may refer other editors to Soviet-German Pact without bothering to repeat the same mantra again and again in order to justify neologisms that were coined an hour or two ago. --Ghirla 10:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I was answering Echuck's question Ghirlandajo. What part of my answer is factually inaccurate? Nick mallory 10:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I made the following edit to make it clear that the Soviet Union officially recognized and denounced the fact of the occupation, no matter what some Russia-bashers claim. --Ghirla 10:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Your interpretation of Gorbachev's statement is wrong. He only denounced the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact; he did not recognise or denounce the occupation. Further discussion on the related talk page. Digwuren 10:43, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Good, that's the point isn't it? Improving the article by adding relevant information is better than simply airbrushing it from Misplaced Pages. Nick mallory 10:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Because the page consists of nothing but original research. In the lead, it states that the neologism invented by its author is "comparable to Holocaust denial". Ergo, the Soviet occupation is comparable to the Holocaust. That's what makes it so absurd. --Ghirla 10:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm adding another perspective here. It has been typical of Soviet Union's treatment of history, and of the post-1991 Russian treatment of history, to view the World War II (see also Great Patriotic War) as a black-and-white battle of good Communists versus evil Nazis (typically called 'fascists' (Template:Lang-ru). In light of this ideology, every claim that can be seen as casting disfavourable shadow upon Red Army's heroism, or the motivation of the 'good' Communist Party that directed the army, is seen as an act of allegiance with the 'evil' opponents, an attempt to heroize the Nazis. Accordingly, a number of the historians researching in 1980s and 1990s the Soviet crimes against humanity (committed mostly in 1940-1949) have been accused of neo-Nazism, mostly by Soviet and Russian authorities. Digwuren 10:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with the present article. Do you deny the Estonians' involvement in the WWII massacres against Russian and Jewish population? Where have all the Latvian Jews gone during the war? You forget that in a few weeks a country as small as Estonia created 22 (!) death camps with the guards being almost all Estonians; that in 1941 9,000 Russian PoWs were "executed" by "Estonian Self-Defence"; that Estonian police battalions were particular murderous against Estonian Jews (out of the flourishing community of several thousand only around 12 had survived) and civilian population in Russia and Belarus completely burning down several villages with all their citizens, mostly women and children. It wasn't happening at the end of the war as a desperate attempt to get their, Estonian, hands on arms in the face of the coming Red Army as some try so hard to convince. It was happening right from the beginning. But do we have the article about the Estonian collaboration with the Nazis? No, we don't even have Soviet-Japanese War where my grandfather and great grandfather were killed by the way. Have the Estonian officials ever acknowledged their guilt in the Holocaust? If not, why do we have no article about the Estonian Holocaust denial? --Ghirla 11:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The supposed Dzyatlava massacre is under serious doubt by historians, and may be fictitious or misrepresented.
See, for example, an overview in . As an illustrative example, Leo Pihelpuu, who, if the accusations were true, directly participated in the massacre and was so charged, was not executed, as the Soviet law of the time proscribed for crimes against humanity; instead, he was sentenced to 25+5.
I'm planning to work on the article, but given the delicacy of the matter, it needs thorough preparation. Do not hold your breath. Digwuren 11:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, you're right: your accusations have nothing to do with the present article. Digwuren 11:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The Estonian websites you quote are a fine specimen of Estonian Holocaust denial. The perpetrators of the Holocaust in Estonia were partially absolved, because the government of the Estonian SSR asked the matter to be suppressed. It was one of many mistakes of the Soviet government which encouraged the Estonians to believe that they had nothing to do with the Holocaust, while the Estonian (and Latvian) Jews simply evaporated, without any assistance on their part. --Ghirla 11:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Misplaced Pages is not a place to discuss and invent things, like this article does. Plus, it fails NPOV by a league. -- Grafikm 11:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Notable topic, well referenced for an article that was just started. Needs more time to be developed and polished -- perhaps the title should be modified (is denialism really a dictionary word?). Also, if we talk about Soviet occupation of neighboring countries, and the denial by some of certain actions that took place during said occupation, how about mentioning the Katyn massacre? I quote from that (featured) article: "In March 2005 Russian authorities ended the decade-long investigation with no one charged. Russian Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov put the final Katyn death toll at 14,540 and declared that the massacre was not a genocide, a war crime, or a crime against humanity, but a military crime for which the 50-year term of limitation has expired and that consequently there is absolutely no basis to talk about this in judicial terms. Despite earlier declarations, President Vladimir Putin's government refused to allow Polish investigators to travel to Moscow in late 2004 and 116 out of 183 volumes of files gathered during the Russian investigation, as well as the decision to put an end to it, were classified." Sounds like a belated admission to me, not a full admission of responsibility for the massacre committed at Katyn forest in 1940. And this is not just my opinion; to quote again from that article: "Because of that, the Polish Institute of National Remembrance has decided to open its own investigation. ... The Sejm also requested Russia to classify the Katyn massacre as the crime of genocide". — Turgidson 11:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
    It's an ancient tactic to bury the real issues in an immense pile of historical grievances. The so-called "Katyn denial" was discussed many times before and classified as another attempt to blur the uniqueness of the Holocaust. If you want to discuss Russia's attitude towards Katyn, you should go to the appropriate talk page. It's an immense topic which cannot be treated summarily here. And it has nothing to do with the subject of this page. --Ghirla 12:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
You appear to be making the peculiar argument that the Katyn massacre (and other Soviet atrocities) should be swept under a rug because if that is not done, Holocaust might be viewed by some as non-unique. Is that correct? Digwuren 12:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't "demand" anything to be "swept under a rug". I demand the articles to conform to WP:NOR. I don't think Misplaced Pages is a proper venue for introducing one's own neologisms and "research". If you are interested in researching "Soviet atrocities", please publish your findings in some reputable journal, prove that their denial is "comparable to Holocaust denial" and then return to Misplaced Pages. --Ghirla 12:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
In this case, I apologise for misunderstanding your position, and express the point of viewhope that if you browsed through the references, you would see that this article conforms to both WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. I especially recommend which is very thorough, and takes a somewhat novel approach to the assessment of differences in interpretation of history, but all the references are worth reading. Digwuren 12:59, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Ghirla: Please assume good faith -- what I said is not a "tactic", but the way I think. And, the issue of Katyn may have been discussed, so what-- I was not part of that discussion (I only joined WP about 6 months ago), and this article seems to be a good place to put certain aspects of the Katyn massacre into a wider perspective, to wit, the refusal by some (including officials in the Russian government) to admit full resposibility for certain actions done by the Soviets in occupied countries, some decades ago. And, beg your pardon, why would the Katyn massacre committed by NKVD troops on occupied territory have "nothing to do with the subject of this page"? — Turgidson 12:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Since you identify Katyn (village) near Smolensk as "occupied territory", I don't think that further discussion with you will be worthwhile. Sorry. --Ghirla 16:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, my bad -- I got carried away with the geographical location where the massacre actually took place. I was thinking of the Polish officers being rounded up in Poland by Soviet occupying troops in 1939 -- that was the occupied territory I meant to refer to. Turgidson 19:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. All this demonstrates why I think we should not keep this page. There are people pursuing a revisionist agenda and others opposing them. Until there's a more settled view of events the page will simply be a battleground of reversions where editors with axes to grind come to take a poke at their opponents. BTLizard 12:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Does this position have a basis in Misplaced Pages policy? Digwuren 12:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view refers to both geographical and nationalistic bias, both of which are relevant here. You can see them at work at Bronze Soldier of Tallinn. BTLizard 13:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid this is mere handwaving. There is nothing in WP:NPOV that would suggest refraining from creating articles on controversial topic out of concern that they may become battlefields for edit wars.
As for revisionist agenda, this particular revisionist ideology is quite notable, being part of the Russian Federation's official interpretation of history. It needs to be covered, under the very rules of WP:NPOV, as neutrally as we can manage. Digwuren 13:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
What, in your understanding, would be the other sides that need to be covered in this article? Digwuren 14:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The article does not mention anything about the part that local (non-Russian) Soviet/Communist cadres played in the annexation/incorporation of the Baltic countries into the Soviet Union. - Francis Tyers · 20:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Rename to Legal continuity of Baltic states or delete. Denialists of Holocaust deny that the mass killing of Jews took place or insisted that it was on much smaller scale. "Denialists" of Soviet Occupation do not deny that Baltic states were incorporated to the Soviet Union by the treat of military force or that it was followed by many unfortunate events. The only thing they argue is that occupation is the wrong term and say annexation or incorporation is the better term (e.g. that a Secretary of Tartu Raykom of CPSU Andrus Ansip should not be charaterized as an occupant or colloborator but rather as a Communist functioner of Estonian SSR). The discussion on the proper wording for the event does not worth a separate article and it is an original research. The only thing why the argument is present is because of the Legal continuity of Baltic states, the question whether the Baltic states share the assets and liability of the Soviet Union and the most importantly if they have any obligations to their residents. I think the theme is important and can include the legalese over occupation vs annexation vs joining Alex Bakharev 13:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Good suggestion. - Francis Tyers · 14:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
No, this is incorrect.
First, the legal continuity of Baltic states is already discussed elsewhere. This article is about the POV that they (and other occupation victims) were not occupied, or that occupation-related atrocities did not take place.
Denialists of occupation have denied a number of things over the various years, and typically only stopped at any particular point when it became too embarrassing to not do so. Take, for example, the very existence of MRP, denial of which was officially maintained for over 50 years; the Katyn massacre, which the Soviets for years attempted to blame on Nazis and only Gorbachev admitted to; or the genocidal forced deportations of many tens of thousands of Baltic citizens that were covered up until mid-1980s.
Your attempt to make sense of denialist claims is admirable, but your summary of these claims, not taking into account the evolving nature of such claims, is wrong. Digwuren 13:59, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I have been planning to write the article on Legal continuity of the Baltic states for some time now. With the present atmosphere and the influx of one sided editors, I am however affraid the article would not stand a change.
With the most controverisal articles it is often best to leave them alone and let the war mongers add all the venom they want. That way innocent readers will not be fooled, and will recognice the article for the crap it is, even without a POV or totallydiputed tag. The best hope for this article is, that it will end up in that category. -- Petri Krohn 21:45, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Its a valid article about the denial of crimes committed by soviet occupation. It has plenty of cited sources to make it worth of keeping and expanding. Pehaps taking the -ISM part out would make it more understandable as "Soviet occupation denial"?--Alexia Death 14:52, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the -ism:s. Now, the article consistently refers to 'occupation denial', ready to be renamed. Digwuren 15:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
rephrasing, as "about the denial of crimes committed and the fact of soviet occupation". --Alexia Death 14:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Denial of occupation and denial of crimes are different things, dont you think so?--Dojarca 17:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete POV fork and Nazi propaganda. Controversies should be reflected in the relevant articles where both points of view reflected equally.--Dojarca 15:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
POV fork of what? And Nazi-propaganda? I see no Nazi views in this article. Could you substantiate the clams a little more deeply? --Alexia Death 16:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
First. There is no evidence that the term really exists and if exists, covers all the things mentioned in the article such as Katyn massacre. Katyn massacre as well as "liberation from Judeo-Bolshevist occupants" were the topics havily used by Nazi propaganda. In its essence the article is another revisionist attempt to reconsider the history and outcomes of WWII. The article labels such belief (i.e. denial of Soviet occupation) as denialist which according the denialism article is a belief contrary to the scientifically supported evidence. So the article describes denial of Soviet occupation to be a view contrary to scientific evidence, which is wrong as judical definition of occupation is a military control over foreign territory. The article covers problems already covered in other articles such as Occupation of Baltic States and we do not need another article covering the same topic or a new article yet another time citing Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.--Dojarca 16:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
First, Ive already proposed and it has been accepted that the -ism part should be removed as this was result of slightly too literal translation, the occupation denial however is very real thing. Soviet army was in the baltic states until IIRC 95... So occupation is a historic fact. This article is not about that fact. Its about this fact being denied. It does not talk about MRP either. It talks about the fact that the existence of secret protocols was denied for fifty years. As to nazy propaganda, Nazy presence in the Baltic states is also viewed as OCCUPATION and is not a topic of this article.--Alexia Death 17:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
No country can occupy its own territory so even if Soviet army units existed in the republics, it cannot be termed occupation. All points of view related the occupation should be covered in the relevant article Occupation of Baltic States. Existence of secret protocols to Molotov-Ribbentrop pact alreadey covered it the relevant article Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and we do not need another article on the same topic.--Dojarca 17:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
A perfect example of the term Soviet occupation denial is a sentence like: "No country can occupy its own territory so even if Soviet army units existed in the republics, it cannot be termed occupation." It is obvious Soviet occupation denial, since all of the three Baltic States were recognised by the Soviet Union as independent states after the Estonian War of Independence, Latvian War of Independence and Lithuanian Wars of Independence. --Philaweb T-C 17:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
And ceased being recognized as such after incorporation in the USSR.--Dojarca 19:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Not according to Under Secretary of State in the US Sumner Welles, July 23, 1940 - and more than 50 countries who later followed this position. --Philaweb T-C 20:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Can you please provide a reliable (i.e. not Estonial nationalist) source that the incorporation of the countries into the USSR was not recognized by such a number of states?--Dojarca 21:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Most of the online sources refer to works of Tunne Kelam or Mart Laar in the end. While the latter is a recognised historian, I feel you would still unreasonably deny his work claiming "unreliability" and "bias", so you will have to do with an offline source:
The Annexation of the Baltic States and Its Effect on the Development of Law Prohibiting Forcible Seizure of Territory by William J. Hough
This is what Kelam refers. Digwuren 21:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - A valid article. To say that this article is false and an AfD suggests that Western betrayal should go too. The accusations of Nazi undertones in this article is absurd. - 52 Pickup 17:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Valid article, valid topic. The phenomenon is even present here, on en.wiki. --Lysy 18:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
    By this logic I suggest to move Occupation of Baltic states to Claims of occupation of Baltic states as the phenomenon exists even in en.wiki.--Dojarca 19:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete — POV fork, original research. Lantios 18:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Abstain. Hard one. Ghirla is right that the title is ORish (but descriptive titles are OK if phenomena is notable). Whether the phenomena is notable, I am not sure - the current references are mostly non-academic, and while they speak about similar pheonomena, I am not sure if it is notable enough or not. Thus, I abstain: if better references are provided, I may change my vote to keep, but currently I am almost tempted to vote delete (and if no good references are provided, I may change my vote to delete if deletion arguments get better...).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Maybe it would be better solution simply to create a section to Occupation of Baltic states about it? I must say that im not sure if that article is neccessary. Anyway this recent confrontation between Estonians and Russians in many articles at wikipedia which was started by Bronze soldier dispute is quite annoying. By the way, I consider claims that Baltic states were not occupied simple stalinistic POV pushing, just I have some doubts if this current article is neccessary.--Staberinde 19:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Maybe there is an even better title, however the phenomenon is significant and warrants a Misplaced Pages article. What happened in Estonia, Latvia and elsewhere from 1940-1991 was an illegal occupation, and that is the official position of most major democratic nations of the world . Conversely, if, and only if, the Russian Federation, and most of the Misplaced Pages fans of its current policies agreed with the assessment of the democratic world then, of course, an article on occupation denial would be rather redundant.--3 Löwi 20:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - While neutrality of the article is questionable it is referenced and one of it's references proves that such term acctualy exists. And as for suggestion to move this to Legal continuity of Baltic states - concider that each of Baltic states is independent entity and each has different laws ---- Xil/talk 20:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete,Nazi propaganda shall not pass!--85.179.139.155 20:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, needs work though. It explains many things starting with the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn and ending with Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Occupation of Latvia. Renata 20:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Is controversy around this issue notable for Misplaced Pages? - yes. Do official positions and references exist that affirm both points of view? - yes. Do various aspects of this controversy deserve separate articles, provided there is enough material, there are enough references, and that the articles represent NPOV and are non-OR? - yes. But the article in its current state doesn't represent NPOV and is an OR, therefore, delete. --BeautifulFlying 21:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. It is definitely not neutral point of view. There are a lot of web sites where you can argue or represent your political opinions, but not here. Vicpeters 22:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

References

  1. European Parliament (January 13, 1983). "Resolution on the situation in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania". Official Journal of the European Communities. C 42/78. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) condemning "the fact that the occupation of these formerly independent and neutral States by the Soviet Union occurred in 1940 following the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact, and continues" and stating that "whereas the Soviet annexias of the three Baltic States still has not been formally recognized by most European States and the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia and the Vatican still adhere to the concept of the Baltic States".