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About Illyric language. See this link. http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/4689/grabovac.htm, about fra Filip Grabovac, the author of Cvit razgovora naroda i jezika iliričkoga aliti arvackoga (...Illyric or Croat).
Or this title, from the the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result .
A dictionary by Andrija Jambrešić and Franjo Sušnik.
Title is : Lexicon Latinum interpretatione Illyrica, Germanica et Hungarica locuples : in usum potissimum studiosae juventutis / digestum ab Andrea Jambressich, Societatis Jesu sacerdote, Croata Zagoriensi Impresum: Zagrabi : Typis Academicis Societatis Jesu, , 1742 . Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's a link to the library of Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. Search result .
Book of the author Jakov Mikalja.
Title is Blago jezika slovinskoga illi Slovnik : u komu izgorarajuse rjeci slovinske latinski i diacki = Thesaurus linguae Illyricae sive Dictionarium Illyricum : in quo verba Illyrica Italice et Latine redduntur / labore p. Jacobi Micalia ; Grammatika talianska u kratko ili Kratak nauk za naucitti latinski jezik / koga slovinski upisa otac Jacov Mikaglja ... Impresum: Laureti : apud Paulum et Io. Baptistam Seraphinum , 1649 . Kubura 12:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
From the Talk:Serbo-Croatian language:
virtually all literature written in shtokavian vernacular prior to Serbian language reformer Vuk Karadžić, ie. cca. 430 years of literary texts, belong to the Croatian linguistic and literary heritage. First major vernacular shtokavian text is "First Croatian prayer book", kept in Vatican library- date cca. 1380-1400. Then follow major authors covering Renaissance, Baroque, Classicist and Sentimental literaure: Držić, Menčetić, Gundulić, Bunić, Palmotić, Zlatarić (Dubrovnik), Kavanjin (Split, Dalmatia), Kanavelović (Korčula, Dalmatia), Divković, Posilović (Bosnia), Kačić(Dalmatia), Relković, Ivanošić, Došen (Slavonia)..
The majority of these texts are titled as works on "Illyrian" or "Slovinian"/"Slavonic" language, but they explicitly equate Illyrian with Croatian- dor instance, first major shtokavian-based dictionary, Mikalja's/Micaglia's "Thesaurus linguae illyricae", Loreto 1649. "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata".
Further info on older Croatian lexicography can be found at http://www.hlz.hr/eng/povijest.html
Kubura 19:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
- It's not possible to understand what you want to show with the above quotations.--Giovanni Giove 22:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The article should be named Jakov Mikalja.
Also, I supposed which questions might arose, so I've intercepted them. Kubura 13:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
And, again, "Serbocroatian"?
What Serbs are you talking about?
What are you doing, Giove? Playing dumb?
Ignoring and deleting my data I've posted here???
That's vandalism!
POV-ising with inserting adjective "Serbo-" where isn't any there and deleting any lines that link to Croatian language and deleting (???) the sourcenames in original Croatian
(you've deleted the lines Blago jezika slovinskoga illi slovnik u komu izgovarajuse rjeci slovinske Latinski i Diacki). Kubura 14:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Mikalja/Micaglia is not just Croat, or just Italian
@Giovanni: Please stop reverting everything. Be constructive.
Do not just change Croatian to Illyrian or Serbocroatian etc. First mentioning of Serbocroatian is in 18th century. Equality between name "Illyrian language" and "Croatian" is documented and well known, so it is not unsubstantiated. He is known by name "Mikalja" not only in Croatia, so don't refer to his name like it is only in Croatia.
@Kubura: He is definitely Italian, and Croat too. So please leave adjective "Italian" where it is.
--Plantago 11:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Micaglia himself declared to be Italian. End of discussion. All other claims are totally sourced: most of all Illyric does not coincide with Croatian. Best regards--Giovanni Giove 11:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- First - I wrote "Italian...of Croatian origin", and that is what he said too. Is there a problem with that? Napoleon was Frenchman, but Corsican too. Stalin was Great Russian, but Georgian by origin. You are Italian, but proud of your Venetian origin. Venetians are/were not Italian by ethnicity, but are Italians by nationality. So, he is Italian by nationality, and declared that he had non-Italian origin.
- Micaglia is not of Croat origin, but of 'South Slavic': you cant claim is just 'Croat'. YOU have to tell why, according to you , is "Croat".
- Second, your statement "most of all Illyric does not coincide with Croatian" is not completely clear. What does it mean? Is it in connection to the new section you just added to the article, claiming that Illyrian is not Croatian because Croatian was standardized in 19th century? When was Italian or German standardized? Does it mean that language has to be standardized to exist!? Whot are your references for such claims. I will put "original research" mark on that section, because you didn't cite any source. Please read articles about your language, German, English, Croatian, Serbian, Serbo-Croatian, whatever, and then try to write relevant addition to article. Just to mention, this article is not your property, so you can just delete work of anyone but you, including referenced literature. Maybe expert opinion would be good answer? --Plantago 12:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- Italian was studied and standardized in XIV etc. German shortly later, Croat in XIX cent. Before XIX cent. nobody ever talked about a 'Croatian' language outside historical Croatia (such us in Dalmatia, Ragusa or whatever). There are no linguistic disntiction between the 3 serbocratian dialects (if you like it....). If the 'serbocroatian' word is now imppopular in Croatia for political reasons, find an equivalent word. But don't claim for what is not yours (or belogs just in part). The dictionary is based on 'Bosnian' language; so, why it is not a 'Bosnian Dictionary)?... can you claim that Bosnia is or was part of 'Croatia'? Best regards--Giovanni Giove 11:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- First - I wrote "Italian...of Croatian origin", and that is what he said too. Is there a problem with that? Napoleon was Frenchman, but Corsican too. Stalin was Great Russian, but Georgian by origin. You are Italian, but proud of your Venetian origin. Venetians are/were not Italian by ethnicity, but are Italians by nationality. So, he is Italian by nationality, and declared that he had non-Italian origin.
- Ridiculous. Are you going to claim that the Italian in 14th century was the same Italian language we know today? Modern Italian just like the modern Croatian was started to be standardized in 19th century. Most if not all languages as well. There never was anything similar to "serbocroatian" and that is a linguistic fact, it has nothing to do with political reason. As for "Bosnian language" Micaglia speaks off he himself explains he is talking about the 'Sthokavian dialect' (Bosnian was Shtokavian-ikavian dialect was spoken only by Croats not only in Bosnia but in Dalmatian hinterland, Lika&Krbava and whole Slavonia). As for your constant removal of everything mentioning Croatia and disregard for facts Micaglia himself again proves you wrong. He himself writes: "Hrvat, Hervat = Illyricus, Croata" (Hrvat/Hervat is Croatian word for Croat or Croatian). Also he signes himself on the very title page as Jacov Mikaglja which means he is not called Jakov Mikalja in Croatia only but that he called and signed himself so as well.
Also a small excerpt from one Italian source : Solo gli specialisti sono a conoscenza dell'esistenza di un Dizionario latino-italiano-croato intitolato (da come possiamo intravedere nel frontespizio) Tesoro della lingua slava o Dizionario in cui si traducono le parole slave in latino ed italiano, scritto dal Gesuita Iacopo Micaglia in epoca controriformistica (1649-1651).
You can also find the front page with his Croatian name inscribed there, it's a bit small but you can see it very well. Now stop with your vandalism and leave this article alone already. Your revisions are really starting to be tiring. You should have been forbidden to edit Misplaced Pages a long time ago, not only due to your huge number of bad faith edits, but your POV enforcement, rudeness, disruption and edit-wars. --89.172.194.7 12:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
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