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Estonian pirates AKA vikings
Hello Berig, to avoid edit warring here: how come you call Scandinavian pirates from the late 8th–11th century vikings but the similar ship-borne warriors and traders of Norsemen (literally, men from the north) who originated from another side of the Baltic sea you call pirates?
As there are also referred to Estonian vikings in the article and there are sources elsewhere that refer to 'Estonian vikings' for ex 800-1100 A.D. Raids and counter-raids by Vikings around the Baltic Sea, including by Estonian Vikings. Estonians kidnap Norwegian Queen Astrid and her son, future King Olaf Trygvesson—sell them into slavery. Estonians destroy Sweden’s main town, Sigtuna. http://www.balticsww.com/tourist/estonia/history.htm
please have the article reverted to Estonian vikings instead of Estonian pirates so that your original article can't be interpreted as a racist Scandinavian POV. Thanks!--Termer 19:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Termer, he meant that you moved the article in a wrong way - you must use Move link at the top of the page to move articles, not cut-paste method. DLX 19:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks DLX for the tech tip! Although I can't speculate on what was meant. Since ethnic issues regarding vikings have been discussed also earlier on Berig user page, I can't be certain for the reasons until Berig has confirmed it.--Termer 20:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- First of all, DLX is right that you moved the article in the wrong way. By cutting and pasting, you don't move the article's history with it. Secondly, the word "Viking" is ambiguous in English and can both mean "medieval Scandinavian" and "medieval north European pirate". On WP we strive to avoid ambiguous article names, and above all we try to make the terminology as mainstream as possible. If you want to call this article "Estonian Vikings" you have to expect the casual reader to think that is about medieval Scandinavians living in Estonia. PS, can you explain more exactly what you mean by "racist"? Are Estonians a different "race" from Scandinavians, or are you talking of "Nationalism"? Please not that personal attacks are forbidden on WP and can make you incur a block.--Berig 22:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks DLX for the tech tip! Although I can't speculate on what was meant. Since ethnic issues regarding vikings have been discussed also earlier on Berig user page, I can't be certain for the reasons until Berig has confirmed it.--Termer 20:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Moving the article in the wrong way was my mistake, I apologize for that.
Regarding medieval Scandinavians living in Estonia, the ancient Swedish settlement in coastal areas and on islands of Estonia is a fact Scandinavians living in medieval Estonia is a documented fact. The fact is also that the 'Estonian pirates' used similar technology to Scandinavian vikings as described in the Chronicle of Henry of Livonia. Now, either those Estonian pirates were ethnically Finnish/Estonian or Scandinavian, is a secondary question. Most likely there were both.
Now, I have no idea why do you take anything here personally. I was referring to the way the northern pirates are called differently and I'm sorry if I exaggerated with calling this kind of approach racist. Perhaps nationalist like you suggested is more correct. Now, what are we going to do about the title? I think 'Estonian pirates' is in any way inappropriate since it refers to modern day national name of Estonia. Eistneskr by the old Norwegian sagas referrers to Finno-Ugric people like ancient Livonians and Estonians or Finns etc. 'Estonian vikings' would refer to Scandinavian style pirates that were perhaps both ethnically Scandinavian and/or Finno Ugric back then coming from what are nowadays known as Estonian islands. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks!--Termer 00:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
- Berig asked me to give an opinion on the naming. "Viking" is an unfortunate, blurry 18th-century term for Scandinavian raiders, merchants and other people who just happened to leave their countries on a boat for whatever purpose. The original term, as far as I know, is based on a long-extinct Old Norse word that roughly meant a pirate, however never used at the time about the same people that were later labelled as Vikings. Finnic and Baltic peoples are cut off from that by definition, so using it about them is incorrect.
- Earlier Scandinavian presence in the Baltic area was all gone by the mid-11th century. Previous Baltic vassals adopted much of the Scandinavian warfare and turned against their previous masters. I seriously doubt that there were any significant numbers of Scandinavians left in the Baltic area in the 12th century.
- "Estonian" was already widely used at least from the 11th century onwards in its current meaning, even though not by Estonians themselves. The name appears frequently e.g. in Russian chronicles. Estonia was not a unified country, but its people were seen as one in the contemporary sources. The same applies to Finns, Karelians, Votes etc.
- Noteworthy is though, that the 12th century plundering was not a Baltic/Finnic privilege. Russian, Swedish and Danish attacks were not any different at the time. To be honest, there is a certain flare of medieval propaganda still present here, when attacks coming from the east were labelled as "pirating" and similar attacks from the west as "crusades". As we have an article Early Finnish wars, I would propose a similar neutral name for this article here, Early Estonian wars. My 2c. --Drieakko 12:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Russian chronicles have never called anybody Estonian (since the word itself is Latin for Estland) In Russian chronicles the ancestors of modern Estonians/Finns are referred to as Chuds. Please also note the fact that there were Scandinavians settled on islands that are nowadays known as Estonian from where the Viking style raids under discussion originated from. Further on, the period of crusades has nothing to do with what's under discussion here since Northern Crusades started a century later after the Viking era was over and Scandinavian countries had become Christianized.
During the Northern Crusades, it's a separate documented chapter in history and it's called 'the Ancient (Estonian) Fight for Freedom'. That was in essence the fight against the invaders by all ancient tribes including the ones living in modern day Estonia' mainland . But the 'Estonian pirates' were located only on islands, primarily on Oesel, that is BTW one of the main source from where the people into the western Finland migrated from in the ancient times.--Termer 19:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
PS. How about calling the article 'Ancient Estonian pirates', sometimes called the 'Eastern Vikings' , like it says on Saaremaa AKA Oesel?--Termer 19:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
- Oh well, I meant that they treated Estonians as a separate people, naturally not using the English word "Estonian" for them. Swedish settlers arrived only after Estonian wars were over and done with, in the late 13th century, around the same time than they started settling Finland. "Ancient Estonian Fight for Freedom" is a rather unsuitable name for a Misplaced Pages article, even though it is used by Estonian historians. Articles are not meant to raise any nationalistic emotions. Every war has somebody fighting for "freedom" and all past wars can be called "ancient".
- About Finns, they have not emmigrated from Saarenmaa. I have not heard that claim ever before. --Drieakko 20:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Drieakko Please let me point out that they treated Estonians as a separate people is an opinion not a fact. The fact is the Russian chronicles referred to Chuds as all the finno ugric tribes living in the era, perhaps some of them were even Slavic.. Please check out the related map on WP. even the map of - Chuds Finno Ugric tribes also lived in the era that is modern Finland nowadays. Therefor calling people living in Finland back then -Estonians, is an opinion. Even in Old Norwegian 'eistneskr maðr ' in the saga of Olaf , it doesn't mean anything else than 'men from East'. Therefore Eastern Vikings would work well perhaps. Since Eastern pirates could refer to the Orient. Also, if you look at the English translation of The Saga of Olaf Tryggvason ,it refers to vikings as robbers and people as Aistian. A comment also says “Aistian names Klerkon, Klerkr, Eres (Heres), Reas, and Rekon/Rekon are most probably not Finno-Ugric but could be Old Baltic )
- Russian chronicles originally used the word Yem for the Finns. In the 13th century, they started to use that specifically about Tavastians and adopted Sum for the southwestern Finns. There is no entry in the chronicles about Chuds that could be interpreted to have meant Finns. --Drieakko 04:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding finns emigrated from Saarenmaa It should be common knowledge that waves of the Finno Ugric tribes arrived to Finland from South that is modern Estonia now and the other waves arrived to Finland from East through that is modern Karelia. Now since the the global human genome project, there surfaced a fact about 5 years ago, DNA evidence pointed out that the people living on Saarenmaa and Western Finland nowadays have descent from the same origin.
- Theories about mass-migrations of Finns have been dropped long time ago. DNA evidence points out that Estonians, Finns and Swedes are all closely related. --Drieakko 04:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding Germanic tribes, Scandinavians living in the Estonian islands long time before the 13 cen. since the evidence to that are vague and controversial I don't think it's worth argue about the Scandinavian settlement during the Viking era any more.--Termer 03:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Notes and references
- http://www.einst.ee/factsheets/factsheets_uus_kuju/estonian_swedes.htm
- ISBN-10: 0801441498