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Estonian pirates AKA vikings
Hello Berig, to avoid edit warring here: how come you call Scandinavian pirates from the late 8th–11th century vikings but the similar ship-borne warriors and traders of Norsemen (literally, men from the north) who originated from another side of the Baltic sea you call pirates?
As there are also referred to Estonian vikings in the article and there are sources elsewhere that refer to 'Estonian vikings' for ex 800-1100 A.D. Raids and counter-raids by Vikings around the Baltic Sea, including by Estonian Vikings. Estonians kidnap Norwegian Queen Astrid and her son, future King Olaf Trygvesson—sell them into slavery. Estonians destroy Sweden’s main town, Sigtuna. http://www.balticsww.com/tourist/estonia/history.htm
please have the article reverted to Estonian vikings instead of Estonian pirates so that your original article can't be interpreted as a racist Scandinavian POV. Thanks!--Termer 19:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Termer, he meant that you moved the article in a wrong way - you must use Move link at the top of the page to move articles, not cut-paste method. DLX 19:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks DLX for the tech tip! Although I can't speculate on what was meant. Since ethnic issues regarding vikings have been discussed also earlier on Berig user page, I can't be certain for the reasons until Berig has confirmed it.--Termer 20:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- First of all, DLX is right that you moved the article in the wrong way. By cutting and pasting, you don't move the article's history with it. Secondly, the word "Viking" is ambiguous in English and can both mean "medieval Scandinavian" and "medieval north European pirate". On WP we strive to avoid ambiguous article names, and above all we try to make the terminology as mainstream as possible. If you want to call this article "Estonian Vikings" you have to expect the casual reader to think that is about medieval Scandinavians living in Estonia. PS, can you explain more exactly what you mean by "racist"? Are Estonians a different "race" from Scandinavians, or are you talking of "Nationalism"? Please not that personal attacks are forbidden on WP and can make you incur a block.--Berig 22:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks DLX for the tech tip! Although I can't speculate on what was meant. Since ethnic issues regarding vikings have been discussed also earlier on Berig user page, I can't be certain for the reasons until Berig has confirmed it.--Termer 20:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Moving the article in the wrong way was my mistake, I apologize for that.
Regarding medieval Scandinavians living in Estonia, the ancient Swedish settlement in coastal areas and on islands of Estonia is a fact Scandinavians living in medieval Estonia is a documented fact. The fact is also that the 'Estonian pirates' used similar technology to Scandinavian vikings as described in the Chronicle of Henry of Livonia. Now, either those Estonian pirates were ethnically Finnish/Estonian or Scandinavian, is a secondary question. Most likely there were both.
Now, I have no idea why do you take anything here personally. I was referring to the way the northern pirates are called differently and I'm sorry if I exaggerated with calling this kind of approach racist. Perhaps nationalist like you suggested is more correct. Now, what are we going to do about the title? I think 'Estonian pirates' is in any way inappropriate since it refers to modern day national name of Estonia. Eistneskr by the old Norwegian sagas referrers to Finno-Ugric people like ancient Livonians and Estonians or Finns etc. 'Estonian vikings' would refer to Scandinavian style pirates that were perhaps both ethnically Scandinavian and/or Finno Ugric back then coming from what are nowadays known as Estonian islands. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks!--Termer 00:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
- Berig asked me to give an opinion on the naming. "Viking" is an unfortunate, blurry 18th-century term for Scandinavian raiders, merchants and other people who just happened to leave their countries on a boat for whatever purpose. The original term, as far as I know, is based on a long-extinct Old Norse word that roughly meant a pirate, however never used at the time about the same people that were later labelled as Vikings. Finnic and Baltic peoples are cut off from that by definition, so using it about them is incorrect.
- Earlier Scandinavian presence in the Baltic area was all gone by the mid-11th century. Previous Baltic vassals adopted much of the Scandinavian warfare and turned against their previous masters. I seriously doubt that there were any significant numbers of Scandinavians left in the Baltic area in the 12th century.
- "Estonian" was already widely used at least from the 11th century onwards in its current meaning, even though not by Estonians themselves. The name appears frequently e.g. in Russian chronicles. Estonia was not a unified country, but its people were seen as one in the contemporary sources. The same applies to Finns, Karelians, Votes etc.
- Noteworthy is though, that the 12th century plundering was not a Baltic/Finnic privilege. Russian, Swedish and Danish attacks were not any different at the time. To be honest, there is a certain flare of medieval propaganda still present here, when attacks coming from the east were labelled as "pirating" and similar attacks from the west as "crusades". As we have an article Early Finnish wars, I would propose a similar neutral name for this article here, Early Estonian wars. My 2c. --Drieakko 12:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Russian chronicles have never called anybody Estonian (since the word itself is Latin for Estland) In Russian chronicles the ancestors of modern Estonians/Finns are referred to as Chuds. Please also note the fact that there were Scandinavians settled on islands that are nowadays known as Estonian from where the Viking style raids under discussion originated from. Further on, the period of crusades has nothing to do with what's under discussion here since Northern Crusades started a century later after the Viking era was over and Scandinavian countries had become Christianized.
During the Northern Crusades, it's a separate documented chapter in history and it's called 'the Ancient (Estonian) Fight for Freedom'. That was in essence the fight against the invaders by all ancient tribes including the ones living in modern day Estonia' mainland . But the 'Estonian pirates' were located only on islands, primarily on Oesel, that is BTW one of the main source from where the people into the western Finland migrated from in the ancient times.--Termer 19:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
PS. How about calling the article 'Ancient Estonian pirates', sometimes called the 'Eastern Vikings' , like it says on Saaremaa AKA Oesel?--Termer 19:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
- Oh well, I meant that they treated Estonians as a separate people, naturally not using the English word "Estonian" for them. Swedish settlers arrived only after Estonian wars were over and done with, in the late 13th century, around the same time than they started settling Finland. "Ancient Estonian Fight for Freedom" is a rather unsuitable name for a Misplaced Pages article, even though it is used by Estonian historians. Articles are not meant to raise any nationalistic emotions. Every war has somebody fighting for "freedom" and all past wars can be called "ancient".
- About Finns, they have not emmigrated from Saarenmaa. I have not heard that claim ever before. --Drieakko 20:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Drieakko Please let me point out that they treated Estonians as a separate people is an opinion not a fact. The fact is the Russian chronicles referred to Chuds as all the finno ugric tribes living in the era, perhaps some of them were even Slavic.. Please check out the related map on WP. even the map of - Chuds Finno Ugric tribes also lived in the era that is modern Finland nowadays. Therefor calling people living in Finland back then -Estonians, is an opinion. Even in Old Norwegian 'eistneskr maðr ' in the saga of Olaf , it doesn't mean anything else than 'men from East'. Therefore Eastern Vikings would work well perhaps. Since Eastern pirates could refer to the Orient. Also, if you look at the English translation of The Saga of Olaf Tryggvason ,it refers to vikings as robbers and people as Aistian. A comment also says “Aistian names Klerkon, Klerkr, Eres (Heres), Reas, and Rekon/Rekon are most probably not Finno-Ugric but could be Old Baltic )
- Russian chronicles originally used the word Yem for the Finns. In the 13th century, they started to use that specifically about Tavastians and adopted Sum for the southwestern Finns. There is no entry in the chronicles about Chuds that could be interpreted to have meant Finns. --Drieakko 04:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding finns emigrated from Saarenmaa It should be common knowledge that waves of the Finno Ugric tribes arrived to Finland from South that is modern Estonia now and the other waves arrived to Finland from East through that is modern Karelia. Now since the the global human genome project, there surfaced a fact about 5 years ago, DNA evidence pointed out that the people living on Saarenmaa and Western Finland nowadays have descent from the same origin.
- Theories about mass-migrations of Finns have been dropped long time ago. DNA evidence points out that Estonians, Finns and Swedes are all closely related. --Drieakko 04:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Regarding Germanic tribes, Scandinavians living in the Estonian islands long time before the 13 cen. since the evidence to that are vague and controversial I don't think it's worth argue about the Scandinavian settlement during the Viking era any more.--Termer 03:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello Drieakko lets get to the point and stop trolling here, I could go on with this that the Finns referred by the chronicles were most likely the Sams and the DNA evidents doesn't say anything about mass migration but just points out the fact that the guys on Saarenamma and in western Finland are related closer than the rest of the Est Fin Scnd and you can get back to me with another opinion but thats not the point here etc. So what are we going to do about the 'Estonian pirates'? --Termer 05:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps they are better described as "raiders" rather than "pirates", since strictly speaking piracy means "robbery on the seas", where as these people mainly raided on land after arriving by boat. Anyway, how about the idea of merging the content into a section of the stub Ancient Estonia, then have this page as a redirect? Martintg 05:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Martintg pirates are also known nowadays as software etc. pirates. But in general I think merging this into Ancient Estonia sounds good to me. Then its going to be possible to point out that in modern English, the eistneskr are translated as Aistian's and Vikings in the same text are referred to as raiders and or robbers. I've posted a ref earlier.--Termer 06:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- The current article is a rather mixed bag of all kinds of conflicts, not only maritime. I'd still propose Early Estonian wars to give a complete coverage about Estonian related conflicts before the German/Danish conquest of the area. The article should handle conflicts against Novgorod/Vladimir/Kiev, Danes, Swedes and eventually Germans. The overall amount of material about these conflicts is quite extensive, but it is currently thinly spread here and there. --Drieakko 06:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
calling those raids Estonian wars is way over the top I think. Those were still vking style raids from both sides, also there were conflicts between the Finno-Ugric and Baltic tribes back then. Sigtuna perhaps could be called a war for the scale of it but in the end it was just a quick raid. I think once Ancient Estonia is going to be more sophisticated article, once we'll get all that extensive amount of material about these conflicts in there, it would be reasonable to start a new, main article about the subject. So, I'd support merging all related articles into Ancient Estonia, cleaning it up and then lets take it from there. --Termer 07:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- Kindly read my previous comment again. For example, the early 12th century conflict between Novgorod and Estonians seems to have been very extensive. I'd first sum up all conflicts under a common article and then spin off additional articles if there is need for that. --Drieakko 07:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello Drieakko I did read your previous comment again. And I have to come forward with my point once more. Since we don't have any articles in WP that cover those conflicts in depth, (or do we?) I'd suggest merging all related stubs or I'd first sum up all conflicts under a common article: Ancient Estonia and once any of the sections is going to ask for it's own article, then spin off additional articles if there is need for that.--Termer 20:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think this is a good strategy, since stand-alone articles like Estonian pirates lack context, so it may be confusing for readers, we can spin it off later again if needed. However, since Berig was the originator of this great article, we should also get his opinion too. Martintg 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- IMO, adding information about these scattered and isolated conflicts to Ancient Estonia would not much improve the quality of the said article. --Drieakko 04:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well ofcourse, the article is still a stub, so I intend to fatten it up bit over the weekend. Martintg 05:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'd rather stay away from a discussion where people like Termer insinuate that the naming has racist POVs against Estonians. Since everyone has his/her own wishes, we should wait and see if other add their opinions until some kind of consensus appears.--Berig 07:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well ofcourse, the article is still a stub, so I intend to fatten it up bit over the weekend. Martintg 05:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
- IMO, adding information about these scattered and isolated conflicts to Ancient Estonia would not much improve the quality of the said article. --Drieakko 04:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Well Berig, I thought we put this racial thing behind us and settled on ethnic or national bias. But since you insist. We should turn to the specialists perhaps. Since the racial theorist Alfred Rosenberg, a Reich minister of Nazi Germany has claimed that Estonians were 50 percent Germanic AKA Scandinavian and Vikings can only be applied to Scandinavians, perhaps a consensus could be reached if we call the article “Estonian half-vikings”? based on the DNA evidence Drieakko provided: Estonians, Finnish and Scandinavians are all genetically closely related , maybe we could even go for "Estonian 75%-vikings"? Anyway, since you have chosen to use the modern national name of the country please have this article renamed without adding any national bias to it's title. I refuse to go along with this trolling further and have to tag this article accordingly if not replied and dispute not solved via a consensus. Thanks!--Termer 03:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
- I don't understand what is the dispute here. --Drieakko 04:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Notes and references
- http://www.einst.ee/factsheets/factsheets_uus_kuju/estonian_swedes.htm
- ISBN-10: 0801441498