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Template:Thomas HuxleyCarolus Linnaeus Racial Definitions

Hi dark tea, I look forward to your "Platonic Racial Definitions with Australia" template. Fred ☻ 16:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Use of "necessarily" in East Asia article

Hi Dark Tea. I wanted to bring your attention to my undoing of one of your edits in case I misunderstood your intention. You removed the word "necessarily" from the second sentence in this sequence: "In the various "Color" terminology for race, indigenous East Asians are often thought of as the "yellow people" or the "yellow race" in Western culture. East Asians themselves don't necessarily use these terms to refer to themselves." Your comment says "removed the word "necessarily" per WP:WTA on absolutes which advance a point of view."

Actually, removing the word makes the sentence absolute, because it is preceded by "not." So the previous version of the sentence suggests that some East Asians refer to themselves with the terms "yellow people" or "yellow race," whereas the version without "necessarily" states that no East Asians refer to themselves that way. Although the color terms are definitely controversial in East Asia, some East Asians do use them. Japanese rappers, for example, frequently call themselves "kin iroi yatsu" (yellow guys), especially when calling for uniquely Japanese or pan-Asian hip-hop practices.

I wonder, however, if we even need to bring this up on the East Asia entry? Frankly, I'm not sure why the color terminology is even there. Any objections to removing it altogether?Rikyu 15:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to removing it altogether.----Tea 04:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Done! Thanks for your input. Rikyu 21:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

"Mix" Argument

Dear Dark Tea. Just letting you know that researches such as this and others show there's no such thing as the "Pure Caucasoid" individual. One-drop rule strictly applied in light of such DNA tests shows, for example, that a significant number of White Americans have some sub-Saharan African or Native American ancestry, and leaves few perfectly White-looking people in your definition of the Caucasoid category. Also, regarding the long obsolete 1890 ethnography map, it shows the coexistence of Aryan and Dravidian people in North India, and not necessarily their mixing. Your edits also contradict what the text of the article has to say. Please consider reverting your edits. deeptrivia (talk) 18:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If it is true that some Northwest Indians are not mixed with Dravidians, then it would be OR to have an editor decipher the race of a Northwest Indian.----Tea 18:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, please read Caucasian Race about South Asians. It is well documented that Indo-Aryans, like the rest of Indo-Iranians are Caucasian. On the other hand, the picture that really ought to be removed is probably the Kalash girl. This is what the article on Kalash people says: "However, recent genetic testing among the Kalash population has shown that they are, in fact, a distinct (and perhaps aboriginal) population with only minor contributions from outside peoples. In one cluster analysis with K = 7, the Kalash form one cluster, the others being Africans, Europeans/Middle Easterners/South Asians, East Asians, Melanesians, and Native Americans." deeptrivia (talk) 18:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It is well documented that the original Indo-Aryans were Caucasian until they moved into India and mixed with the Dravidians. If Kalash are relatively unmixed with Dravidians, this says nothing about the rest of the inhabitants of India.----Tea 18:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Please cite some references that state that Indo-Aryans ceased to be Caucasians once they moved to India. Also, in that case, please propose to remove the statements from reliable sources all over wikipedia that say that Indo-Aryans are Caucasians. Exteranl sources like this would all agree too. And the Kalash unmixing argument says that they are aboriginals, and therefore not Caucasians. Thanks, deeptrivia (talk) 18:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll add an image again, as I think it adds value to the article by addressing a common confusion that White is synonymous with Caucasian race, and because there is no ambiguity in reliable sources regarding ambiguity of Indo-Aryans being Caucasians. You are welcome to discuss this issue on the talk page. Please do not remove the image before discussing. Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 19:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

When the Indo-Aryans moved into India they were doubtlessly still Caucasians. Only when they mixed with Dravidians did they stop becoming Caucasian. Regardless of what other articles on Misplaced Pages say, Misplaced Pages cannot be used a source for itself. Dr. Koenraad Est with a masters in Indo-Iranian Studies and a Ph.D. in Hindu Revivalism says, link says, If an Aryan or other invasion is assumed, this evidence shows that all castes are biologically the progeny of both invaders and natives, though perhaps in different proportions. Conversely, if the genetic distance between two castes is small, this still leaves open the possibility that the castes or their communal identities can nonetheless have divergent origins, even foreign versus native, although these are obscured to the geneticist by centuries of caste mixing. ----Tea 19:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Bharatvani, Voiceofdharma, and other 'Hindu revivalist' websites are not reliable sources on wikipedia. Please read WP:RS. Please read the source you yourself cited again. It says: "The Caucasoids are found practically all over the country" . Please check dictionary definitions, such as this and this. I'm not saying there's no mixing, but only that there has been mixing all over the world, and such mixing is not much relevant in defining the term. Little while ago, you wrote in one of the edit summaries that the court rulings found Indians to be Caucasians. Please make up your mind and be clear about it in light of all these sources. I can mention more sources if you want. I hope you at least read the first sentence of the article. Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 19:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:RS says, "Reliable sources are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand". Notice Dr. Koenraad Elst is not a Hindu Revivalist, although he received his Ph.D. in Hindu Revivalism, but is disciplined in Indo-Iranian studies. While it is true Elst claims that the Caucasoids are found all over India, he also claims India is wholly mixed in different proportions. It is possible to label a person "Caucasoid" when they have Dravidian ancestry as well. That is to say there are many Caucasoids in India and many Dravidians. It's just that they overlap because they're mixed. The Supreme Court a while back found Indians to be Caucasian in race. This says nothing since it also found them to be Asian in race which holds to current times. Of course, you'll find other sources for both POVs because it's a contentious issue. I don't feel the picture should be in the article, unless it illustrates the debate.----Tea 19:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no debate among scholars on this. This issue is pretty clear. Indo-Aryans are Caucasians, and nobody denies this. Even the supreme court decisions were about white or not white, as you correctly pointed out. You have not shown a single source claiming that they ceased to be Caucasians at any point. Even the mixing argument is not based on any evidence or source. The sources, are, in fact, contrary: "Thus (according to Sengupta et al. 2006) current upper Aryan castes in India mostly contain Y-haplogroups R1a1 (45%), R2 (16%) and H (13%). The Aryan tribal groups and lower castes actually consist of subdued Dalits and possibly mysterious Dasya, as the high presence of H (24-33%) and R1a1 (10-26%) shows. Dravidian lineages (L, J2a) are generally rare in Indian Aryans (but possibly much common in Pakistan), which also indicates that Dravidians didn't occupy the whole territory of India before the Aryan invasion - only the Indus Valley." deeptrivia (talk) 19:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying Indo-Aryans ceased to be Caucasian. The Indo-Aryans are Caucasian, but their progeny with Dravidians are not. The Elst source shows this. I would like to WP:V your "Sengupta" source. What is its URL?----Tea 19:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The paper is from the American Journal of Human Genetics:

Sengupta S, Zhivotovsky LA, King R, Mehdi SQ, Edmonds CA, Chow CE, Lin AA, Mitra M, Sil SK, Ramesh A, Usha Rani MV, Thakur CM, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Majumder PP, Underhill PA, : "Polarity and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists." American Journal of Human Genetics, 2006, p. 202-221

• Let me summarize again:

• Most dictionary definitions, encyclopedia articles and other sources (such as this and this) include most present Indians, with all the "mixes", in the Caucasian category. This includes the definition that has been the opening statement of this article for years. This by itself should have been enough.

• Research shows all people are mixed to some extent. There's nothing like pure Caucasians. So, the argument that mixing makes the current Indo-Aryans of S. Asia (which are always still identified Indo-Aryans and not as something else) non-Caucasians does not hold any more than the statement that current Europeans are non-Caucasian.

• In any case, peer reviewed research like that by Sengupta shows that the mixing has been rare.

• Contrary to your interpretation, Koenraad Elst (I'm quite familiar with this beliefs), is suggesting something totally different in the article you cited. He's giving evidence in support of the Out of India theory that claims that all Caucasians originated in India (see also Indigenous Aryans (India)).

Think about it with an open mind, there's always something new to learn. deeptrivia (talk) 20:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It appears that you want the definition of a Caucasian to be anybody with at least partial Caucasian ancestry. Don't add a picture of a person with a strongly Dravidian appearence, because it may not be true that they would have Caucasian ancestry.----Tea 20:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't want the definition to be such-and-such, and what I "want" the definition to be, or what "I think" the correct definition is, is not relevant on wikipedia. As all sources point out, and as the article already correctly states, most South Asians belong to the category. It could turn out that the Indian girl's appearance is more Caucasian than that of the European girl's appearance, based on the criteria the anthropologists use to define the category (e.g. relative proportions of bone sizes in the skull, etc.) I wonder what criteria did you employ in concluding that she had a strongly Dravidian appearance. deeptrivia (talk) 20:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the sources say that most Indians are Caucasian because most (maybe all) Indians are Caucasian/Dravidian mixes. Consequently, I feel that your picture would be alright if the person didn't look all Dravidian, because it may not be true that s/he would have Caucasian ancestry.----Tea 20:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

There are also Mongoloid people in India (Indo Mongoloid). However, let me assure you that the distinction between Caucasian and non-Caucasian is not based on skin color, and Rajasthanis are all Caucasians. Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 20:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll assure you Rajasthanis are all Caucasian, because India is mostly if not all Caucasian/Dravidian mixes.----Tea 20:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, we're all mixes. There are no pure races. It's only the extent of mixing that counts, and the mixing has been rarer between Caucasian/Dravidian than between Caucasians and other groups like Negroid or Native American in Europe/America. Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 20:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)