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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jayjg (talk | contribs) at 06:50, 29 July 2007 (→History of allegations). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

France NA‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance NA This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. This page has been marked as needing immediate attention.

Discrimination NA‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination NA This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

This article was nominated for deletion on July 16 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Merge proposal

It is extremely bad etiquette to remove a "merge" tag without discussion (in fact it is against the rules, but I don't feel like wikilawyering). Please do not remove the tag until a consensus develops either way.

If you oppose the proposal, you should discuss in the centralized thread in the {{mergeto}} article, in this case Allegations of apartheid. I will restore the tagging, and add a note in the correct thread. Thanks!--Cerejota 00:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You didn't state a reason for doing so, and the article is 14k long and almost 1900 words. It's far too big to merge. Please stop using tags as a weapon to deface articles you don't like. Jayjg 04:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, it is false that I did not provide a rationale. I did so here in the correct talk page, which is the talk page of the {{mergeto}} page. I ask you please apologize for misrepresenting me.--Cerejota 05:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I apologize. Jayjg 22:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Just don't lose your cool like that, it is embarassing to watch ;). You can be a hard ass, but I have learned that you are ultimately just with does with good faith. Thats freaking important if this is to be The Encyclopedia.--Cerejota 00:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Quote farm

Apparently to make the article appear more extensive than it actually is, extensive quotes have been added form single sources. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and attacks all quality principles of wikipedia. If we cleanup the quote farm, which is unnecesary, we are left with a good section for the parent article. Thanks!--Cerejota 04:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

A dozen good sources, all talking about different aspects of the same thing. Please stop defacing articles you don't like with spurious tags. Thanks. Jayjg 04:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, when did I say I didn't like this article, and why is placing a quote farm a spurious tag? The article doesn't meet quality standards, and that is what this tag is for. I suggest you calm down, man. Thanks!--Cerejota 05:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, why you didn't like my version, which was arguably more encyclopedic and less of a quotefarm, but kept all the sources you provided?--Cerejota 12:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The quotes added a great deal of information that wasn't captured in the summaries. Perhaps you can suggest some ways of shortening the quotes here that will still capture the meaning and intent and impact of the sources. Jayjg 22:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we work it together? I be honest with you, from my perspective quotes in general should be limited to a minimum, because they take away from the encyclopedic value. You obviously disagree, but appear willing to work it out, so I am happy to oblige.

I did include the one in the end because I tried four re-writes and still came out deeply unsatisfied with the results. I think my version doesn't minimize intent and impact of the sources, but ey of the beholder. I also think we should allow the encyclopedic voice its space. Since being balanced and un-biased is a given in wikipedia, as long as we are careful, I think we can do it fine. I have the proposed the same in other quotefarms.

Lets do something. I create a subpage in this talk page Talk:Allegations of French apartheid\UnquotedVersion, I put my version there, and we can discuss (and add edits, also by others, no this is my page- stay away here), and come up with some sort of consensus. I think it can work ok, as we both agree on notability and relvance of the sourced material. Thanks! --Cerejota 00:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

allegation of lies

France maintained colonial rule in the territory which has been described as "quasi-apartheid" this is stupid and totally false. there was no such things as US buses for black and white in algeria, besides algeria was truly part of france as made of département like today corsica. for example muslim children went in public schools with european french kids, i've seen worst apartheids. this view is a simplification by american editors, reads like all mslim in france are from algeria, but this totally false many comes from morroco and tunisia and black africa as well, all of which are former french colony or protectorates, there is not a single word about this. this article is totaly oriented and a mystification this can be seen in "Criticism"'s POV authors selection. this article doesn't exist in other language, don't ask why. Paris By Night 09:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Paris By Night, you have to understand the background. This is a prank article. The people writing it have no interest in or knowledge about France or even racial discrimination. Weird as it sounds, this article is a WP:POINT extension of disputes within the Israel-Palestine sections of Misplaced Pages. As you probably know, there has long been a heated debate among scholars, journalists and public figures involving comparisons between the Israeli occupation and South African apartheid, from ethical and historical perspectives, but also from strategic perspectives (with regards to Israel's demographic concerns, for example, and the international community's search for a just and pragmatic solution). Ardent Israeli nationalist editors object to the very existence of the article Allegations of Israeli apartheid, but haven't found much support for their cause, so they've come up with the novel strategy you're now encountering. They've googled around to see if the word "apartheid" has ever been used, even only rhetorically or in passing, in connection with other societies and government policies. When they find two or more such citations, they create one of these prank articles to house them. If you try to get this article deleted, they'll try to recruit you to join them in their opposition to the Israel article, making clear that the article you care about is a hostage to the one they care about.--G-Dett 15:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with everything G-Dett is saying here except two things.

1) This is not a prank article. It exists to inform people on how rhetoric is used in political debates about discrimination. If Misplaced Pages decides that political rhetoric like this doesn't deserve its own article, then we can work on creating a stricter notability guideline.

2) I am not not adding these articles to make a WP:POINT, but rather to inform people that ridiculous rhetoric is used in every debate about discrimination/politics. Because Misplaced Pages has decided such rhetoric is worthy of articles, then can you really blame us for not wanting Misplaced Pages to single out Israel and Cuba for abusive rhetoric? It's an NPOV issue to me, at least.--Urthogie 16:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Law of unintended consequences.

However, I do not share the level of vitrol here towards the allegations. I will allow myself one, and only one, soapbox post on all of these pages, and it will be this: When Cuban people are denied entry to the hotels they built, when the French - keen on preaching Liberte, Equalite, Fraternite at the world - face insurrections and riots for their imperial and colonialist policies, when the United States lock-ups ten percent of the black adult population at any given moment, when Israel spends money and resources building a walled ghetto for themselves and lacks the bravery the white South Africans had in becoming a minority in the State they built, when the ghetto and apartheid (soft, hard, criminal, tourist, and gender) become the norm, any self-respecting encyclopedia must report it. Most of the editors don't realize it, but by focusing on Israel so much, they have actually opened the door to a much more wider dialog. One that includes the limits of analogy and hyperbole, but also the commonality of concerns and aspirations of human beings. Even in exclusion we turn out to be the same... --Cerejota 00:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Cerejota, you should refrain from writing in French, it is really ridiculous. Accents are not optional features which look cool and make things look like they are copied from an expensive restaurant, so if you can't write "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité", just write in English.

As for the "imperial and colonialist policies", I'd like to see you develop how a country implements "imperial and colonialist policies" in the heart of its own territory. Rama 21:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Really? Is that all you can do, fight over accents? In english wikipedia? Really? Déconner!:D --Cerejota 12:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

No, as you can see, I can also argue that your usage of the words "imperialist and colonialist policies" have no basis whatsoever and is purely insulting. That you did not answer, not even with a non-syntactical reply. Rama 12:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Déconner used the way you did, Cerejota, it doesn't mean nothing... That's just as if you were answering "orcish short sword" to a yes/no question. But I'm really interested to read your development about the so-called French "imperialist and colonialist policies" Flying jacket 15:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

article is undergoing AFD proposal

Can we continue this debate after the AFD result comes in? Thanks, --Urthogie 14:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Why? we do not support it, so why should it matter? I am doing a DRV if delete is the outcome, because it would be an unjust deletion of notable, properly sourced content. However, I am confident it wont come to that.--Cerejota 00:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Notes / References duplication

I think there has been some sort of error. The notes section is an exactly duplicate of the references section in the article. 15 each. The order is slightly different though. I thought it was an intentional error but someone just reverted my fix of it. --CGM1980 15:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Notes and references are different. Notes are tied to specific items in the text; References are an alphabetical listing of every single source used in an article. Notes may use sources multiple times, in multiple ways (different quotes, different page numbers); references list sources only once. Notes include page numbers; references include ISBN numbers. For a better example of how this works, see Rudolf Vrba. In this case, some of the notes also contain quotations backing the claims advanced for them, which also makes them different. Jayjg 16:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Separate sections for notes and references is useful when a piece of writing draws upon a large fund of research that is only partially represented by the specific citations. In this case, having both sections seems weird because the notes and references are virtually identical. They are virtually identical because the "research" for the article consisted entirely of gathering citations, in an automated fashion through search engines. When a subject is researched not by reading books and article but by data-mining for key-word quotes, the resulting article's references will be identical to its citations.--G-Dett 21:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

heading change

They are both shorter, and less original researchy.--Cerejota 12:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Amazing...

I just quote the article :

Tariq Ramadan, a French Muslim,...

But, according to Tariq Ramadan, the man seems to be a Swiss Muslim...

Flying jacket 15:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

He's both. Lives in France-- french citizen.--Urthogie 15:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid to tell you that I don't find any reference to his french nationality through the Internet. Could it be an unreferenced assertion ? Flying jacket 15:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

My mistake. He is a scholar of French society, not a Frenchman himself.--Urthogie 16:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I've just changed that. Had not seen the current talk, sorry. --Ouicoude 16:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Tarik ramadan is NOT a scholar of French society, he is a scholar of islam. Miuki 07:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Quotefarm

Since the AfD is over, I think its time to focus on quotefarm (ie quality).

I will just be bold and do my edits. They will be mostly switch sourced material to encyclopedic voice, rather than quotes, whenever possible.

Thanks!--Cerejota 15:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

You have my full support on this one. There are way too much quotes in this article. It looks like a newspaper article, and It should not. NicDumZ ~ 14:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Weird page !

Calling the french treatment of certain categories of people an "apartheid" is a funny idea, as France is one of the only countries where the nation doesn't recognize "races" (I quote this ugly word) and that gives the very same treatment to all religions. It might be hard to believe for some non-french, but there is absolultely no way to count the amout of french people who are "black" or "white" or "blue" or "green", as this information has no legal existence : it's not on the id card, not on the medical files, it just exists on the police document, along the eyes colour and the existence of tatoos. In a same way, religion is not a public matter, it is something you do at home, like any hobby. It is not possible, therefore, to tell who is a catholic, a jew, a lutherian, a muslim or an atheist, and to count such people. And of course, people love who they want to.
Well my point is that "apartheid" is not racism, it is a legally cristalized racism. Of course, racism exists in France like everywhere in the world (if you want to find a stupid and mean man, just seek for any man, he'll do fine), but it is not organized by the nation. The word "apartheid" is not well-used. But what is the most funny is that this article quotes Tariq Ramadan who is among the people who ask for a real separation between the "communities" even though they don't exist in a legal way : he allegates France to be in the situation of the south african apartheid, but he does all he can to get to that. I see that on the en: article about Ramadan, he is known as a reformer, well he is not known as that here : he is a skillful and hansome proselyt who doesn't say the same things on french mass medias (a french muslim is french before being muslim...) and on the tapes he spreads in the suburbs (...unless it is against the Qran). Basicaly, most of the specialists, like Antoine Sfeir (very famous analyst) think that Tariq Ramadan is a fondamentalist.
Anyways, I hope there will be a way to do anything of that page but for me it is as stupid as if the fr: wikipedia had an article as "Allegations of George Bush being a nazi" : nazism, like apartheid, are well-defined organizations, well defined historic periods, one sometimes use them as insults, because they are strong words, but it is (sorry) a little stupid to use them litterally concerning a contemporary subject. Jean-no 00:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Just one other thing : I'm just talking about the present situation. In the colonial era and under the governement of Vichy, there have been a "racial" treatment of people in France (but inter-cultural/racial/religions marriage has never been forbidden as far as I know, even during the slavery period). Jean-no

This is exactly what I tried to explain during the AFD before being thrown out of the debate by the author of the article himself because I never wrote in other AFDs before (There should be a first time, you know).

Many good arguments were raised against "allegation of French apartheid" but they were considered unconvincing by those who finally decided to keep the article. Most people in favour of "deletion" were classified as biaised French editors who wanted to defend their country's reputation.

I think this appreciation was wrong because many French people like you and me tried to explain that France does not have any legal segregation system but face instead social segregation and racism. These problems are sometime mentionned in a metaphoric way as "social apartheid" (I think this metaphor is inadequate, but THIS SUBJECT could be rightly discussed as THIS OPINION OF MINE IS ONLY AN OPINION).

Admitting France actual problems while denying imaginary ones seems to me to be a balanced approach and a worthy contribution to an encyclopedia.

The fact that blatantly inaccurate articles can survive untouched in Misplaced Pages is unfortunate. When I will find the time for this, I will maybe add a comment to the article itself (with proper sourcing) to show that NO LEGAL SEGREGATION SYSTEM exists in France.

Jeemde 10:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

A truly wonderful idea

“Allegations of French apartheid draw analogies between France and apartheid-era South Africa”

At last, an introductory sentence truly fitting for a serious, reliable encyclopedia ! Thank’s to this budding “Allegations of X country being the new apartheid South-Africa” series, to be followed, hopefully, by “Allegations of personnality X being the new Hitler”, Misplaced Pages should eventually break away from its previous image as a Pokemon and porn actresses thesaurus. Allow me to pay hommage to the geniuses who initiated this project. Watch your back, EB! Miuki 08:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge Notes into References, their redundancy and overlap is obfuscating

Thank you--Victor falk 15:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Your suggestion makes no sense. Notes reference specific items in the text, are often used more than once, and often include things like quotations. References alphabetically list all sources used in an article. They are not interchangeable. Please stop introducing these WP:POINT defacements of articles simply because you don't like them. Jayjg 16:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I didn't see that they had been edited since the AfD. Please assume good faith.--Victor falk 21:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

You inserted tags in both sections; did you not actually look at the sections you were tagging? Jayjg 01:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

He apologized, let the guy breathe! ;)--Cerejota 01:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

About the references, what do you think of these ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/History_of_South_Africa_in_the_apartheid_era

"Apartheid (meaning separateness in Afrikaans, cognate to English apart and -hood) was a system of ethnic separation in South Africa from 1948, and was dismantled in a series of negotiations from 1990 to 1993, culminating in democratic elections in 1994.

The rules of Apartheid meant that people were legally classified into a racial group — the main ones being Black, White, Coloured and Indian — and were separated from each other on the basis of the legal classification. Blacks legally became citizens of one of ten bantustans (homelands) that were nominally sovereign nations. These homelands were created out of the territory of Black Reserves founded during the British Empire period -- Reserves akin to United States Indian Reservations, Canadian First Nations reserves, or Australian aboriginal reserves. Many Black South Africans never resided in these "homelands."

This prevented black people from having a vote in "white South Africa" (even if they resided there) -- their voting rights being restricted to the black homelands. Black homelands were economically the least productive areas in the country. Education, medical care, and other public services were segregated, and those available to Black people were inferior. The black education system, within "white South Africa", was designed to prepare blacks to be a working class."

And :

"PREAMBLE

The French people solemnly proclaim their attachment to the Rights of Man and the principles of national sovereignty as defined by the Declaration of 1789, confirmed and complemented by the Preamble to the Constitution of 1946, and to the rights and duties as defined in the Charter for the Environment of 2004.

By virtue of these principles and that of the self-determination of peoples, the Republic offers to the overseas territories that express the will to adhere to them new institutions founded on the common ideal of liberty, equality and fraternity and conceived with a view to their democratic development.

Article 1

France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs. It shall be organised on a decentralised basis."

http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/english/8ab.asp

I do not speak here of discrimination against coloured people, or muslims, which exists in France despite constitutional principles, what I want to point is that post 1958 an official apartheid policy is constitutionally impossible in France.

The problem is that some people use the word apartheid in an improper way to brand all kind of discrimination based on race or religion. Apartheid should only be used if there is a segregationist policy inscribed in the law.

This is obviously not the case in France.

There are a lot of associations for the defence of immigrants (legals or illegals) and they would not let pass any infrigement to the first article of the constitution without making a hell of noise and attacking France before the European Court of Justice (in case the French Parliement and Constitutional Council would let such an unconstitutional bill pass, which is highly unlikely).

Jeemde 10:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:OR.--Cerejota 12:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I am unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's rules. As I said previously, I am a newcomer.

However, don't you think that citing "secondary sources" which are blatantly inaccurate to back an article is infriging Misplaced Pages:Verifiability?

If some people wrongly use a word to speak of a situation (here "apartheid" for French integration and discrimination problems), someone may gather their work and write an article like "allegation of French apartheid" in Misplaced Pages, based on secondary sources.

And nobody will ever be in position to contradict them because no serious scholar write about "the wrong use of the word apartheid to speak of France integration adn discrimination problems". Nobody does because it is not an issue except on Misplaced Pages...

The only way to adress the question for people who disagree with the article BECAUSE IT IS GROUNDED ON SOURCES WHICH USE APARTHEID IN AN INACCURATE WAY is to demonstrate this by logic. Which is what I try to do.

If you compare the definition of apartheid to the first article of the French constitution, you can only admit that apartheid is a wrong terminology to brand France's integration problems (which is an existing matter that should be developped in Misplaced Pages)

Jeemde 13:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to wikipedia then! I will try not to bite you...

Now, there is a key part about WP:V I love to quote: "Verifiability, not truth." Misplaced Pages is not about truth, at least not in the sense people usually mean it. It is ultimately about information that is notably, verifiably, and reliably covered by people. This information might be a total lie: however since a notable person, or a notable journal carries, it can be published in wikipedia.

This is because of the well-worn pehenomena of "one man's freedom figther is another one's terrorist". You might think these allegations are utter bollocks, and you might even be right. However, people who are more notable than you are making the allegations. So we have reasons to cover them. Since we cannot engage in original research, we cannot put caveats. The information is as-is. If you have a problem, the write a letter to the editors of Diplo or some such, not to us. We only represent what others say....

I am firmly in the camp of people who are opposed to removal of content. I might support a deletion of blatantly bad content, but in general I am more for merging or keeping content.--Cerejota 22:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that Misplaced Pages cannot remove an article because of somebody's personal opinion. However, I strongly disagree about keeping a total lie in Misplaced Pages because it is backed by a "more notable sources" than me. A lot of people write bullshit in books or essays... The better examples are the negationists who say that no concentration camp existed during WWII.

Of course, in this case, you will find a lot of studies treating of this phonomenon (the negationism) and decyphering it. This will allow Misplaced Pages to see what is the truth from what is the lie and at the end, only truth will prevail (which is, I hope the aim of that encyclopedia... otherwise we can stop talking, I will just go away and come back to my Universalis).

But just imagine that we are at the beginning of negationism. One universitarian publishes an article titled "concentration camp are a legend"; a journalist makes a detailed portrait of that book; two other people give a lecture about the exaggeration of the figures commonly admitted for the death toll in German concentration camp, etc. Then someone makes an article in Misplaced Pages, based on all these "notable sources"... Other people, either shocked by the article, or only ennoyed to see such a lie in their Encyclopedia try to get it modified. But they only have "primary sources" under the hand... they have photos of the camps taken by US liberating army, lists of dead people, witnesses; but they do not have any single article treating about "the negationist phenomenon" (since it was not an issue until then). If this imaginary Misplaced Pages article was written in a remote place, far from Europe where all these events took place, these people may face the same kind of problems to bring the truth forth. They may hear the same answers: maybe you are right and what says that article is a lie but its sources are more notable than you and we cannot delete them even if you bring evidence (primary sources); you may only want to settle your own agenda.

To come back to the "Allegation of French Apartheid" article, one could argue about the existence of an "apartheid like" system in France during the occupation of Algeria (I am not a specialist of that part of France's history), one can rightly say that France HAD an "apartheid like" system under the regime of Vichy (during WWII), but it is not true that France has an "apartheid like" system nowadays. The first article of the French constitution says that no difference whatsoever can be done between French citizens based on sexes, races and religion, which is the exact opposite of Apartheid.

It would be much more interesting to split that article and merge some part with other subjects (Algeria and Vichy period would fit better in an historic section, while current social problems should have their dedicated article).

Jeemde 11:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

That's what i tried to do, splitting, separating the Algerian part, and the modern part, proving at each step why this could be done. Now that this is done, maybe you could take a look at the arguments for the allegations of apartheid nowadays. Apart from the view of Tariq Ramadan, the two allegations are made by american journalists in a very conflicted time, speaking of relations between France and the US. (Iraq conflict, then the french coverage of Katrina, then the US coverage of the riots responding to it)

• I strongly encourage you, if you haven't yet, to read the article of Raplh Peters about the riots : I think that you can't say that it was written in a neutral and objective ways seeing all the attacks against France that are unrelated with the riots:
• The critic, for example, of the events of May 1968 couldn't be more wrong, ("the white-kids' tantrum of 1968, when spoiled brats rebelled against their parents.") since it led to fr:Accords de Grenelle (maximun of 40hours of work per week, minimum salary +25%), to the dissolution of the French National Assembly, and forced Général De Gaulle to abandon politics. It was indeed at first a wave of protests emerging from the students, criticizing the french educational system, but it then spread to the whole country, and the general strike, paralyzing France, forced the governement to act.
• Regarding this, i don't think that this source is reliable: even if some may consider the author as trust-worthy, i do believe that this article was written with some sort of anger, without checking its sources, and cannot really be taken into account. (However, i did not delete the mention of it in the article as you can see, i just tried to neutralize the reference to it)

About the other source, Harry Hutchison, you have to know that the labor contract he is mentionned was subject to maybe the most conflictuous debates for the five last years. There was a strong opposition, a lot of protests against it (see 2006 labour protests in France , and yet, some still would say that it would benefit our society. I'm not saying that what Pr. Hutchison is saying is wrong, i'm saying it is not as it seemed (The governement simply refused to apply a law that would benefit suburbian people). The governement first created it, but it raised so much opposition that they had to give up. It was not a deliberate political choice of the governement.

Then we have two sources not really neutral/reliable, and ONE source that might be taken seriously into account FOR the allegations. Look at how many sources are there in the Criticism paragraph ? I couldn't yet check the neutrality and the reliability of the sources, but still, the title of the article now seems a bit wrong: 2 or 3 sources for the allegations, plenty against. The AfD was denied, but, it should at least be renamed. NicDumZ ~ 11:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The criticism links also say there is apartheid, but insist it is self-imposed. Jayjg 00:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, if an "apartheid" is self imposed it is not apartheid.

Apartheid is a political and social system in which the rights of the citizens depend on their race (or religion).

If you have a country like TODAY's France, which says in the first article of its constitution "It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs" you cannot honestly use the word apartheid to describe the problems of racial discrimination, racism and self imposed segregation.

When someone has the French nationality, he or she benefits from all rights and responsabilities linked to it. The problem is that some of these rights are hard to actually achieve (like being elected for a black person), because of racism and intolerance.

I do not try to defend France here, to pretend there is no problems between the communities living there. What I say is that Apartheid is not the right word to speak of these difficulties.

I hope you will see the difference...

Jeemde 09:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is unfit to appear in an encyclopedia

The bias is in the title. The title puts one side in a debate on the real topic (the amount and nature of racism in the country in question) on the back foot before the first word of text, and the neutrality of the article cannot be recovered after that catastrophic start. This article sets out to group together a group of slurs under the pretence that together they make an encyclopedic topic. This is no more the case than for "Allegations that French people smell". Or imagine other series of article built around usage of slurs in the media: Allegations that Tony Blair is a liar, Allegations that Angela Merkel is a liar, Allegations that Bill Clinton is a liar, or Allegations that Paris Hilton is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that Lindsay Lohan is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that .... is a talentless bimbo. All of those could be sourced, and the fact that something is sourced does not necessarily make it neutral or a legitimate subject for an encyclopedia. The quoting of sources on any article does not confirm that it complies with Misplaced Pages:Neutrality to the slightest degree; any biased essay can be fully sourced. No rephrasing or sourcing can make this article anything more than a politically motivated attack page. Misplaced Pages is not a place for debate or for arguing the toss. The presence of these articles disgraces Misplaced Pages. Dominictimms 13:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Relevance

I'd like to discuus the relevance of this article.

Regardless of the subject or of the neutrality of it, the biggest problem of it to me, is that the whole article looks like a long list of different views of different authors about the subject. It would help a lot (especially about the neutrality problem !) to have a clear and concise article, a synthesis of the ideas which would rely on the different views of the authors.

The problem might come from the title of the article in itself, because allegations sort of refer to a list, but the AfD is over and it was decided that the article will not be renamed. Though i do not agree with that prospective, i'll try to do my best to combine all that quotes in something more simplet and easier to understand.

Also, try not to overquote. Some references are used twice or thrice. The result of this is that it seems that the subject is lacking of serious sources, and that for this reason, you use several times the same quote to make your point. A reader does not need to read thrice a quote for it to make its effect.

NicDumZ 18:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

History of allegations

(I shall say that i absolutely disagree with the existence of that article. The least i can do is to try to correct as much as i can this article)

The fact the the native Algerians under colonial rule have been mistreated and marginalised, taken apart from the native French, coming to exploit the land is true. (see French_rule_in_Algeria#Hegemony of the Colons. but since it is not sourced, i would recommend : fr:Algérie#Époque Coloniale ) Some authors may have, writing about that time, used the word apartheid, and well, i do not discuss that fact.

• As sourced in the French article, the native Algerian could in theory ask through an administrative procedure the French Nationality, to get the same status as the colons, metropolitan-born. But the reality was different as fr:Patrick Weil, director of research of the CNRS wrote : Le statut des musulmans en Algérie coloniale : Une nationalité française dénaturée.
• About the riots which led to the use of urban apartheid. The rioters were youths, children of African and North-African immigrants (see French riots). As such, born in France, they had the French nationality (under the condition of having lived 5 years in France)

This is the first difference between the two "apartheids". In Algeria, the law and administrative procedures would ensure that Algerian would have a different status than French colons. Nowadays, people living in the suburbs and those living dans les quartiers chics have the same rights, because they have got the same nationality.

• Description of the colonial cities from "Postcolonial Urban Apartheid" : the colonial dual cities described by North African urban theorists Janet Abu-Lughod, Zeynep Çelik, Paul Rabinow, and Gwendolyn Wright-in which native medinas were kept isolated from European settler neighborhoods out of competing concerns of historical preservation, public hygiene, and security-'. There were so-called reason of historical preservation and public hygiene for the scheme of urbanization of Algerian cities. From the French article on Époque Coloniale : En marge de la société, (les indigènes) avaient rarement accès à l’enseignement. Leur culture et leurs langues étaient opprimées, les écoles indigènes ont été supprimées au profit d’écoles françaises en nombre très insuffisant. En 1929, 6 % seulement des enfants « indigènes » allaient à l’école primaire. Locals did not had proper access to school, because arab schools got closed and replaced by too fewer French schools. As a result, only 6% of the children in age were going to primary school.
• The building of fr:Grand ensembles responding to a need of comfort and hygiene for the newcoming Pied-noirs who began to settle at the outsides of the French big cities. (But also for blue collars who, at the time, lived in poor conditions). A Grand Ensemble provides not also housing, but medical care, education facities and commercial centers. (Yves LACOSTE, "Un problème complexe et débattu : les grand ensembles", Bulletin de l'association des géographes français, n°318-319, 1963)

Here is the second difference between the two. In one hand we have a part of a population who is clearly indésirable, neighborhoods are being separated in purpose under cover of false reasons, schools are being closed, resulting in a low proportion of children being educated, as an aim to prevent them from occupying high qualified jobs (Vive la nation!, Yves Lacoste, éd Fayard, 1998). In other hand we have an urbanization plan, as a response to a demographic problem, willing to ensure that all have access to public school and medical care.

We must clearly separate the Algerian apartheid and the urban apartheid. I will apply myself to remove all links between those two different apartheids. I would also suggest that since the Algerian apartheid is already studied in the French rule in Algeria article, we should concentrate only on the urban apartheid. NicDumZ ~ 17:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

You cannot remove what noted academics write about a topic simply because you disagree with them. Jayjg 01:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:OR and WP:SOAPBOX. Thanks!--Cerejota 12:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Please, i'm not one of these beginners. I know WP guidelines. (Read my userpage, i'm an experienced wp:fr user) Please state what you think is wrong, or mis-sourced in my comments here, and i'll try to help. NicDumZ ~ 12:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Read carefully what you wrote: in essence it is a short essay on what you believe to be true. No reliable sources, no verifiability, no notability, no nothing. You are introducing a novel narrative that doesn't flow from sources. That, mon ami, is OR and soapboxing! Even experienced editors do mistakes and need to be reminded from time to time (including myself!). So please don't assume that others are not reading what you write and contribute. However, do assume they are smart people who are as well read as you are, who can spot an attempt at building original narratives from a mile away. :D--Cerejota 15:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right for now. The problem with this is that no articles were ever wrote about the existence or the non-existence of that link. It seems that the author just made the link because of the word apartheid, or maybe because of the confusion between the fact that Pied-noirs were coming back from Algeria at the time when fr:Grand ensembless started. erm... I will try. But that's really hard. I will also source the rest of my writings, but it seems that it is not really the core of the problem. NicDumZ ~ 15:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I tried another approach. Since i won't ever find an article Why are urban apartheid and Algerian apartheid unliked ?, I tried to point out the differences between them, sourcing my writings. NicDumZ ~ 17:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Still OR. The only thing we can do, unless a seocndary source speaks about it, is provide sourcing abotu they obvious are: allegation of aparheid. Everything else is a novel narrative, not supported by secondary sources, hence OR. Thanks!--Cerejota 20:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, i don't understand this. I Sourced all of my writings.

• About the first difference, i'm using a source from a very well know scientist, Patrick Weil, and the fact, written in the french constitution, about french nationality.
• About the second, i'm relying on fr:wp articles, sourced, and on the book of Yves Lacoste.
• In which way can't this be taken into account ??

I'm only talking about the link here. Can you say that what i write is wrong ? No. Can you, in the opposide side, prove that Urban apartheid and Algerian apartheid are linked (or find sources telling so ? ) ? No.

It seems then that the link has no reason to be mentionned in the article. NicDumZ ~ 20:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

All sources used must refer directly to "apartheid". Otherwise it's original research. Is that more clear? Oh, and Silverstein & Tetreault directly link the Algerian situation to the current situation in France. You know this, of course, since you deleted that reference, based on your personal opinion that they weren't really linked. Jayjg 00:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, i did, you have a point. But we can talk about this, I had reasons to do so, which you may think were false, but i tried working seriously on that article. We may debate on that specific link later, if you'd like to.

But about all my other work, please don't get this personnal. You may think that I'm wrong with the link-thing, and as i said we can debate about this. But it is not a reason to revert all my other changes !, which are not related to the link ?!.

• Why did you removed my references about the Ralph Peters article ? The article he wrote was not neutral, was it ? Don't you think the WP article should mention it ? I just added material from HIS article, material that prove that sometimes he wrote wrong things. It does not prove that about apartheid he was wrong, I do not say that the source is irrelevant, otherwise i would have removed it, but it's about neutrality, once again ! ( "Does anyone really believe that the country that enthusiastically handed over more of its Jewish citizens to the Nazis than the Nazis asked for is going to treat brown or black Muslims as equals?" IS THIS ARTICLE NEUTRAL ? PLEASE !!! You can't innocently rely on a source like this on a such controversial article. )
• Why did you removed my explanation of the context of the article of Huchison ? ( "The law though was very unpopular among the french students and unions, and faced very strong protests and strikes in February, March, and April 2006, which forced the government to rescind the amendment.") CPE has been a controversial issue, and the government faced pressures about that subject, which means that it did not chose the issue on itself. As you may read it, the law was rescended because of the protests. Still, if the law was created, it is because politicals though that it would be good for a certain part of the population. Why do you think than one side shall have the right to appear in this article, and not the other ? Is it about neutrality. Read 2006 labour protests in France, , this is not unsourced material.
• Please explain your modifications about the beginning of Criticism. You can read a quote from the co-author of the law who says that the aim of it is to avoid apartheid-like situations. Yet, you remove my part, because it's original research ? Just read the quote !

I do not agree with the fact stated in that article, YOU ARE RIGHT. But i tried to work as seriously as i could, quoting everyting i could, linking to other WP articles, quoting from the referenced articles. Please do not revert all my changes just because you think i did them because of my views of the subject. Also, if you'd like to work on this article, i'd be happy to. But please do not just revert the changes like this. I spend hours trying to neutralize on that article, i hope you understand what was my reaction when i saw that you barely just reverted everything. NicDumZ ~ 09:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

NicDumZ, WP:NOR is clear; you can't make up your own arguments to refute things you don't like in an article. Instead, you must quote what other people say on the topic. The sources in this article must refer to "apartheid" in France, or "apartheid" instituted by France". You cannot bring in a whole bunch of other sources that don't refer to "apartheid" in order to construct a counter-argument, instead you must bring sources that directly refer to the topic of this article, which is "Allegations of apartheid". So, for example, you can't try to refute Ralph Peters arguments inventing arguments of your own, nor can you claim the article is "sardonic" based on your own analysis of what he is saying. Quote sources, don't invent arguments. And certainly do not delete sources simply because you disagree with its argument. Jayjg 02:14, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

WP rules

"The problem with this is that no articles were ever wrote about the existence or the non-existence of that link" - I strongly support that sentence...

I am a beginner, right, and I do not know well Misplaced Pages's rules. But there is one thing which seems important to me : If Misplaced Pages wants to be considered as an encyclopedia it cannot CREATE subjects which are not existing. And this is the risk if that article is kept as it is.

In our specific case, the journalists or writers used the word apartheid to name a situation which is different. They did that either because they do not know what apartheid really means or because they wanted to summarize in a single word an aspect of the situation (separation of the communities in a country). In this case it is more a "mataphoric use" of the word Apartheid.

The inadequate or metaphoric use of a word loaded by a precise meaning is minor and there is no academic writing over THIS phenomenon.

Then, by following strictly Misplaced Pages's rules (as stated by Cerjota and Jayig), there is no way to contradict this article (no secondary source), even if a dispassioned scholar, who would use the primary source would come to the conclusion that there is no apartheid (in its real meaning) in nowadays France.

This is a very big flaw in Misplaced Pages, in my view.

Jeemde 08:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

This might be true, but the place to debate this is WP:OR, not here.

However, you do make an interesting point: there is no way to contradict this article (no secondary source), even if a dispassioned scholar, who would use the primary source would come to the conclusion that there is no apartheid (in its real meaning) in nowadays France. Precisely the point! Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth. We care little if the allegations are true, as long as reliable, verifiable, and notable sources speak about it, then they are in. We cannot create a narrative without secondary sources. This is why we trust our readers to make their own minds.

Strange concept, huh? Trusting readers to be smart?--Cerejota 12:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

"We care little if the allegations are true, as long as reliable, verifiable, and notable sources speak about it". In this case, naming Misplaced Pages an encyclopedia seems to be inappropriate don't you think?

If, when I search for an information in Misplaced Pages about a topic I am unfamiliar with, I have to do a full scope research and read all the sources (when they are given) to check if this is true or if it is just a compilation of inaccurate material published by "notable" people (who decide they are notable by the way?)I cannot consider anymore Misplaced Pages as a reliable source.

OK, readers can make their own mind but the aim of Misplaced Pages should be to give notable AND TRUE information.

Jeemde 17:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's how wikipedia works. About undoubtedly questionable/non-neutral sources, the article has to mention the problem. For a stupid example, in an article about history, if you say something basing yourself on sources well-known as negationist sources, well, the very least that will happen is that in the bibliography, a warning will be added. If there are some little doubts on the accuracy of the source, we will add why the article seems to be maybe biased. WP is an encyclopedic project, but it doesn't mean that all it says it's true. See Misplaced Pages:General disclaimer. As per every other media, you have to check the sources of the content. NicDumZ ~ 18:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

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