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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MastCell (talk | contribs) at 00:42, 8 October 2007 (→TrueOrigin Archive: wikilink). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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TrueOrigin Archive

TrueOrigin Archive (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Note to the closing adminstrator: Profg has engaged in apparent canvassing in this AfD. See which includes a number of users who have called for keeping below such as RucasHost. JoshuaZ 17:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Follow-up: See, this is what I'm talking about. Most of what is being discussed here are issues for improving the article, and should be discussed on the Talk page, not on an AfD page that was posted TWO MINUTES after this article was created. I've never seen even a stub AfD'd two minutes after it was created; in fact, most stubs are tagged asking for editors to help improve them. Seriously, why not KEEP this article for at least a week or two, try to help the WP project by improving it, and if it's hopelessly non-improveable and non-notable, toss it on Darwin's dustbin of history? --profg 02:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Lack of sources is a reason to delete, and I looked for additional sources before I made my comment. I can't speak for others. But the sourcing necessary simply doesn't exist. JoshuaZ 02:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
  • If true, that will be borne out in time. Putting this up for deletion 1-2 minutes after it was first created when it's obvious this isn't a disruptive article is ridiculous. It almost seems to me that some people are trying to get a quick delete even though the article doesn't meet the criteria for that (thus, they are using this to get around that fact). Jinxmchue 02:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
      • This isn't a speedy deletion by any stretch of the imagination. This discussion won't even be closed for another 5 days at least. And in the meantime, you are welcome to look for additional sources. And you can be assured that you will not be the only person looking for sources. I'm currently looking at their page to try to find a way to contact TrueOrigins to ask if their are any sources they are aware of (at present I'm having some difficulty finding anything other than the feedback button which appears to be only rarely payed attention to and isn't precisely appropriate for this given their feedback guidelines). But again, there appears to be very little to go on, even AIG's webpage only has a handful of mentions of TrueOrigins, and even then they are all of the it-exists form. JoshuaZ 03:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I didn't say this was a speedy deletion. I said this seems to have been done to get around the speedy deletion criteria as the article doesn't fit any of them. I just can't think of any other reason for someone to have nominated this article so quickly after it was created. Within two minutes. Hardly enough time to thoroughly check for reliable sources. Jinxmchue 07:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
The AfD nomination certainly was rapid. That said, the burden is generally on the creator of an article (or supporters of its existence) to be able to provide evidence of notability at the time the article is created. MastCell 20:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Since we're apparently using this page instead of the talk page to discuss the article, here's some "multiple, independent reliable sources" that link to the True.Origin Archive:

I'm just throwing some out there that I hit with a quick search. There are criticisms there, supports, straight links, etc. But I believe there is at least notability, for it to be linked to by reliable sources. --profg 04:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment.Even with these links, it still fails WP:WEB. Yilloslime (t) 15:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreeing with Yillo here. The first two links are merely lists that include TrueOrigins on lists of creationist pages (nor for that matter are either of those links reliable sources but rather private webpages). The third link appears to contain a link to TrueOrigins as one of many creationist sites noted in what appears to be a course syllabus. The fourth link is a criticism of an essay on the site and is hosted on a geocities website. Hardly reliable. The fifth link is again a page that simply includes TrueOrigins as a link on a list of creationist pages. The sixth link may arguably be a reliable source and is by a anthropology professor at Texas A&M. However, the only additional sentence of content there other than the existence of TrueOrigins is that the website "takes direct aim at Talk.Origins" which isn't a whole lot of content (hardly a non-trivial source). The final link again simply contains a link among a list of links. None of these are independent, non-trivial reliable sources. JoshuaZ 19:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep a notable creationist site. Widely referred to , as it ought to be , because it contains a collection of relative straightforward, intelligent, understandable documentation of that point of view--to the extent that it depends on their interpretations of science. DGG (talk) 05:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment:If it's widely referred to, I have no problem keeping it. I just haven't seen evidence thus far that it is widely referred to by reliable, notable sources. MastCell 20:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
    • comment It is not that widely referred to nor is it at all prominent in the creationist movement. For example, it gets a total about 10 mentions on AIG's webpage (see ) and none from the ICR . AIG is a notable creationist ministry, as is the ICR. Both have multiple independent, reliable sources. Similarly for Kent Hovind's ministry. True Origins is not notable. There's simply nothing we can write about it other than its existence that complies with WP:V. JoshuaZ 23:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per Josh and MastCell. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 15:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. See wikipedia's own definitions of notability for the purpose of the relevant criteria for keep or not: "Notable means "worthy of being noted" or "attracting notice". It is not synonymous with "fame" or "importance". Please consider notable and demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education. Large organizations are likely to have more readily available verifiable information from reliable sources that provide evidence of notability; however, smaller organizations can be notable, just as individuals can be notable, and arbitrary standards should not be used to create a bias favoring larger organizations....."
..And certainly I have seen that it is prominently notable among those who despise it. Those who so vehemently object here to its inclusion are testament to their own desire to reduce its visibility, because they have noted TrueOrigins.com most emphatically. So they are another evidence in favor of its inclusion. TruthTeller 15:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC) — TruthTeller (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Comment The above !vote from "TruthTeller" was actually added by User:24.127.209.207. It's the first edit from that IP. TruthTeller has 3 edits. Yilloslime (t) 15:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: Does not rise to the standards of WP:WEB. ScienceApologist 00:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Most of the sources in the article are from the website itself. The additional sources offered in this discussion don't appear to meet the reliable sources guideline, and my google searching didn't turn up any better sources. No prejudice against recreation if the site becomes more notable at a later time. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep This is a great website, and is certainly very notable. I was actually just there earlier today reading an essay by Dr. Jerry Bergman on the creation of pathogenic viruses. It's highly obvious that this AFD is POV motivated, I can't think of any good reason to delete. --RucasHost 03:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Oh say, like the complete absence of reliable sources that might show it meets WP:WEB. A little AGF might be in order, just maybe? Especially given your editing history and user page. You know, glass houses, stone throwing and all that... Oh and while we're at it- a website being useful or "great" has nothing to do with notability. I visit a lot of websites daily that are great and useful, that doesn't mean they should have articles. JoshuaZ 03:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • JoshuaZ, please be careful not to attack fellow editors, especially for something that has nothing to do with the present discussion. WP:NPA states, "some types of comments are never acceptable," including "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views -- regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme... Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done... It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other user." Please, always assume good faith. Thank you. --profg 05:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Sigh, I think Profg in this case you may want to a) reread my comment or b) reread NPA (including the section you just quoted). It might in fact be best to do both. JoshuaZ 14:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Sigh, I think JoshuaZ in this case you may want to a) reread your comment ("Especially given your editing history and user page") or b) reread NPA in light of that comment (especially the section I quoted). It might in fact be best to do both. --profg 16:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
        • This isn't that complicated. The user in question said "It's highly obvious that this AFD is POV motivated" which is a failure to assume AGF. My observation is that given the user's own statements if we start not assuming AGF it hits him pretty badly. Since I am, of course, assuming AGF, I haven't concluded the user, or any other user in this discussion is calling for keeping or deletion based on their POV. Now, if you are still convinced that I'm somehow magically engaging in personal attacks here, I suggest you continue the discussion on my talk page, since this is rapidly becoming irrelevant to the issue at hand- whether or not there are reliable sources that discuss the website in question. JoshuaZ 16:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete not even close to as notable as ICR, AiG or AiC. Maybe if it lasts another fifteen years someone might be bothered to write an independent non-trivial review, but until then there's no good reason to keep this article around.  –  ornis⚙ 06:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete A non-notable person gets into an argument with an un-named relative, posts his side of the argument online, and then makes it "a web page in hopes of reaching a few other readers." Nothing follows that establishes notability. No numbers. No sponsors. No references in any major publications? Randydeluxe 07:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep This is not notable? I thought it was. Lets find some references to show that it is.--Filll 17:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak delete completely inadequate references, the only non-self reference seems to be a self published post from a talk.origins newsgroup of Feb. 17, 1999 – that does not look credible as a reliable source. Better secondary sources needed. .. dave souza, talk 18:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Irony To all of you darwinists who hate creationism and would love nothing more than to delete this article. You might actually be helping the creationists at TrueOrigin Archive, you see when people search for "True Origins" in Google, the TrueOrigin Archive comes up as the first result; however, Misplaced Pages gets very good search placement and if this article stays there's a good chance it could replace the actual website for the first spot in Google. So by deleting this article you're getting people to go to a site on creationism instead of a Misplaced Pages article about a site on creationism. --RucasHost 19:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Huh? The deletion debate is about notability vs non-notability, and the availability of reliable sources, related to this one web site. It doesn't have anything to do with hating creationism. I hope it doesn't have anything to do with your liking creationism, either, and that your vote is related to your ability to find reliable sources that show notability for this one web site. If anyone is voting on this one web site based on how much they like or dislike the general field of study, then they're completely missing the point of the discussion. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 19:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Now I'm really confused. I looked at your vote, for instance, and it didn't even address the question of whether or not there are reliable sources. Are you accusing yourself of POV voting? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Profg and Rucas- this is precisely why I called for AGF earlier. Profg, you seem to be acting almost as bad a Rucas. As to accusations that there are "POV-warriors" here calling for deletion, note that Filll who is often accused of being some sort of evilutionist was in favor of considering keeping, as was Orangemarlin. This isn't a deletion being orchestrated by an evolutionist cabal. At minimum, if there is a cabal here, it is a damn incompetent one. JoshuaZ 20:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Fisher's comment is just as valid without the use of some pretentious neologism like not-vote or ~vote or whatever is the current style du jour. In fact, the non-voting nature of the matter makes Fisher's point all the stronger. JoshuaZ 20:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, while I fully support Misplaced Pages's model of consensus for discussion rather than majority voting, I find constructions like !vote to be confusing for users who aren't experienced Wikipedians, and I try to keep my comments simple enough that users who aren't members of the cabal can still understand and participate. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
The "irony" in the leadoff statement here is predicated on the assumption that everyone's top priority is to advance a specific POV above all else. I'm fully aware of the power of Misplaced Pages's search-engine ranking, but you'll notice that most of the comments have to do with notability, not hatred of creationism. The only irony here is that User:RucasHost's comment says far more about how s/he views Misplaced Pages than it does about anything else. MastCell 00:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. I have no dog in this fight, and I find young-earth creationist arguments unpersuasive, but there really is no question that the TrueOrigin website easily meets Misplaced Pages's notability critera. Google finds over 8300 links to articles on the TrueOrgin.org web site from other web sites. NCdave 21:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak delete - I was contacted on my talk page by profg for input. This article seems to be mainly sourced by primary self-published sources, afoul of the last criteria of WP:SELFPUB. If there were one or two secondary independent sources, such as a newspaper article which this website was the main subject of, or even a significant subject of, I could be convinced to switch to a keep. - Crockspot 22:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)