Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by David Shankbone (talk | contribs) at 19:47, 16 November 2007 (→A curious question: Outing public personae). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This page is for discussion of the guideline; if you wish to complain about a user harrassing you, your request won't be heard by many people here; you will have better luck at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (assistance). Thank you for your time.

• Older discussion can be found here.
• and here.

Is this policy

As part of an overall effort to simplify and streamline policy, I've boldly replaced the policy tag with a guideline tag. There are several reasons.

The policy tag was added less than a year ago without a clear consensus.

This page is disjointed and is more of an essay than a statement of policy. Much of the reason it is disjointed is that there isn't any real consistent policy on harassment. The AC cases that are identified in the page were the sort of cases that produce unclear precedent because there were so many problems being addressed at once. The most serious problems of harassment we have had are not mentioned here; they have involved sexual innuendo, threats of physical violence, and deliberate disclosure of personal information. That this sort of behavior is inappropriate at Misplaced Pages is so clear that no policy is necessary.

I note that several attempts to generate consenus for a "wikistalking" policy have failed to gain much support.

The Uninvited Co., Inc. 17:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I will re-read the page and related pages and come back either supporting or opposing this decision. Congradulations on being bold. HighInBC 20:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

After a very short re-read I have determined that it is indeed a disjointed series of ideas mostly covered in other areas. The section on wikistalking seems to be the only unique information here, but following people around can be either constructive or disruptive. In the case of constructive following(such as following a vandal or spammer) this is acceptable behavior, in other cases I beleive that other policies cover it. I support you decision to turn this page into a guideline. HighInBC 20:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

After re-reading the page, I also support your action. Thanks for doing this. JesseW, the juggling janitor 02:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikistalking?

When I looked at a user's contributions page, I saw several articles (about Italian models, if you want to know) that had a couple of minor formatting and capitalisation errors, so I went to those articles and fixed them. Would that be considered Wikistalking, though not harmful? --Gray Porpoise 19:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I consider such things to be more giving someone a hand rather than stalking. True wikistalking would be if you were to check their contributions on a daily basis and edited most of their changes. LinaMishima 15:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Query

I have had questions about the identity of a particular user and whether or not he is a person about whom a Misplaced Pages article is written. When I asked this question, he told me I had to remove it as it represented a form of harassment. I don't think that the policy states that it is a form of harassment to ask the question whether a particular user is actually the subject of an article, especially if that user is editting that article (and then there is question of violation of WP:AUTO). Please see the related discussion on my talkpage and give me some guidance. --ScienceApologist 19:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Read the note at the top of the page. This talk page is for discussing the policy; complaints about actual harassment go on e.g. the village pump. (Radiant) 15:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Harassment

A few people have been harassing me after I made a change to Treaty of Nöteborg. First some guy shows up claiming I'm some other user and posting things on my page. Then another guy shows up threatening me with blockage and stalking me half way across Misplaced Pages (undoing something that doesn't make any sense). I then took to see who this person and undid one of his edits (something that didn't make any sense to me). Then he comes back calling me names, claiming I should be blocked for stalking him (HE WAS THE ONE STALKING ME!). I left a message on this guys page telling him not to stalk me, but he removed the message saying "plonk".

Why am I being harassed and how come no one is doing something about it?

Atabata 12:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Read the note at the top of the page. This talk page is for discussing the policy; complaints about actual harassment go on e.g. the village pump. (Radiant) 15:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

And WP:STALK

Copied from WP:COI If this has already been covered, please direct me to the relevant conversation, but: doesn't this policy conflict a bit with user's right to privacy? In other words, it is it possible to suggest to someone that they are violating this policy without yourself violating the policy, in particluar "Posting another person's personal information (legal name, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment, unless that editor voluntarily provides or links to such information himself or herself." IronDuke 20:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• I don't understand what you're trying to say. It's quite possible to point out that someone is posting personal information without repeating that personal information. (Radiant) 09:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, wasn't clear. It's like this: let's say I edit the Bill Gates article and change the lead to read "Bill Gates is the smartest human who has ever lived." After looking at some of my other edits to Microsoft, etc., you get suspcious. So you come to my talk page and you say, "IronDuke, you aren't by any chance Bill Gates, are you?" Well, if it turns out I am, aren't you violating my privacy? And yet, am I not violating COI by editing the Bill Gates in a hagiographic manner? IronDuke 14:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• If someone asks whether you're Bill Gates, they're not violating your privacy (they are likely incivil and incorrect, though). If he posts Bill Gates's home address and telephone number, that would be violating privacy. (Radiant) 15:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

But it says "legal name" above. Thus, if you post that I am Bill Gates, you are violating that part of WP:STALK, no? IronDuke 15:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• If asked out of the blue, yes. If this could reasonably be implied from your on-wiki activities, then no. For instance, if John Doe is the founder of DoeCorp, and the article on DoeCorp is suffering WP:OWN issues from User:JDSomeone, it is not unreasonable to conclude that JDSomeone might be John Doe. In effect, the user has exposed himself. (Radiant) 15:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, he's exposed himself to being exposed, yes? If you, intrepid editor, are the only person who puts it together, it can stay secret of you keep it secret. But this gets back to my question... when may one essentially violate WP:STALK. I'm going to paste this conversation over there and see what people think. IronDuke 15:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

And WP:STALK, part 2

This is similar to the situation above. We have an articles on a company and its owner/CEO. Over time there have been several registered users and IPs who have identified themselves as the owner or officers of the company. Overall, they appear to be just one editor. One account was banned for legal threats but several of them posted threatening or intimidating language. The editor engaged in various edits which represented conflicts of interest, such as promoting the company in other articles, removing information from the articles of competitors, and trying to settle scores. In addition to violating WP:COI and WP:NLT, the editor has repeatedly violated other policies and guidelines, such as WP:POINT, WP:COPYVIO, etc.

A new account claims to have no relation to the company or its owner. However his editing patterns, spelling mistakes, interests, etc, clearly show it to be the same editor as before. Outside information, such as the content of a MySpace account, further supports the theory that the new editor is the owner of the company. Proving the connection to the owner serves to prove that the editor has a conflict of interest and that he is the same editor as previous usernames. So, to recap, is it legitimate to reveal a user's probable real name in interest of enforcing wikipedia rules? -Will Beback · † · 00:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

(Cross posted to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard due to lack of response). -Will Beback · † · 07:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Harassment?

Since Misplaced Pages has pages on many real life people, places, and even businesses, what is it considered when people bring real life conflicts and start placing them onto Misplaced Pages? For example: an argument between two people, at least one of whom has a Misplaced Pages article about them, or also, a business that has an article and an employee/ex-employee that is angry at the business.

I have seen a specific instance of the latter where an employee from a company has gone onto the Misplaced Pages article of the company and posted various defamatory statements about real people that work at the company. Is this vandalism, harassment, or perhaps something else?

This brings to mind a second problem. What happens when sensitive information is posted onto a Misplaced Pages article? Due to the way the Wiki system works, any content that is posted is technically there forever. It may not be on the official page, but it will exist in the pages history indefinity as far as I know. What if, say, someone at KFC decided to post the complete KFC chicken seasoning recipe, or maybe every last piece of personal data they could find about the CEO? I suppose information of that nature would not be verifiable, but it should probably be removed somehow from the history. Sahuagin 01:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

• This talk page is for discussing our guidelines against harassment, not for reporting actual cases of harassment. I'd suggest you bring this up on the village pump, because you're more likely to get a response there. >Radiant< 13:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I had a feeling you'd say that. I am not reporting a case of harassment, I'm asking questions regarding Misplaced Pages policy, specifically about vandalism and/or harassment. Sahuagin 15:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• Okay okay, from your wording it was obvious you had a specific case in mind. Yes, it's inappropriate to bring real-life conflicts to Misplaced Pages, and Misplaced Pages is not a good place for whistleblowing about your ex-employer, because such statements tend to be unsourced (however, if you whistleblow to a newspaper and it becomes a media scandal, we'd certainly write about it). Sensitive information, well, that depends. If you mean "something that is true and verifiable but that the subject of the article doesn't like", well, tough luck. If a celeb goes to prison for embezzlement, our article will report that, regardless of whether the celeb likes that. If you mean "personal contact information", we delete it from the history. If you mean "a secret recipe", likewise. The admin deletion button allows us to do that. >Radiant< 10:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Artaxiad violating WP:Stalk

I would like to report a case of harassment by User:Artaxiad. He has been following my edits, to identify myself with certain other physical identity without any proofs at hand. My creation and editing of this page of a poet who lived in early 20th century, served as a faulty ground for User:Artaxiad to claim my identity based on false name associations and some information he found on Internet about a certain individual in California. His first case of intimidation was here . User:Artaxiad further pursued harassment, trying to associate again User:Atabek with someone else and use an article on Internet as a basis for claiming that someone else as friend of another Misplaced Pages contributor User:AdilBaguirov right here . I will not add extra evidence on User:Artaxiad following my edits to pursue revert warring, all of this evidence is well summarized at , , . I am just wondering when negligence of disruptive behavior of this user is going to end. While being an experienced user, he walks away free with confirmed sockpuppets , gets involved in heavy revert warring, which is presented in ArbCom case , clear attempt to remove all of the images related to a certain country admitted here , accusing others of "lying" , and now clear case of harassment and stalking. How long this is going to go on? Atabek 11:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Shortcut

The most common shortcut reference to this page seems to be WP:STALK. I see that a couple people (including myself) have tried adding it to the top of the page, but someone else keeps removing it saying it's unneeded. It's so commonly-used though, I think it's worth including. Anyone else have an opinion? --Elonka 20:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it is good to have. I had seen people referring to "wikistalking" and was looking for mention of this on a policy page yesterday and had trouble finding this page because the shortcut was not there. Abridged 21:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

First, the point of the shortcut box is not to list every single incoming redirect; that's what Special:Whatlinkshere is for. The point of the shortcut box is to list a select few handy mnemonics for the page, generally related to the page name (e.g. HAR -> Harassment). Second, "stalking" is a needlessly nasty term and should arguably not be used for that reason (for the same reason that the term "COI" is preferred to "vanity"). Third, the term "stalking" is frequently used to mean "reading people's contrib logs". While it is not infrequently argued that reading people's contrib logs is a form of harassment, we should not be giving the impression that there is merit to this argument. So adding that redirect is (1) not necessary and (2) gives people the wrong impression. >Radiant< 09:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

"Stalking" vandals

The following text was deleted:

"Stalking" vandals: It should be needless to add that, once a consistent pattern of vandalism has been detected — particularly the furtive vandalism that in isolation might appear to be reasonable and accurate — it is important to vet the vandal user's previous contributions for further instances of editing designed to undermine Misplaced Pages's credibility. This is not considered "wikistalking".

It was unimaginable to me, inserting this note, that this familiar point could be controversial, yet an editor suppressed this text— under the edit summary of making a "suggestion." Whether or not a few second-rate editors speciously accuse one another of "vandalism' in edit wars, this is not a sensible motivation for forbidding a guideline that concerns pursuing authentic vandals. On rare occasions I have been accused by vandals of "stalking" them. Surely this distinction needs to be made clear somewhere at Misplaced Pages, and this is the natural page. --Wetman 14:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• It's a bit of a false dichotomy. Reading contrib logs isn't stalking period. What makes it stalking is acting upon those logs in a disruptive way. If, for instance, a long-standing editor makes a lot of tyops, it's perfectly reasonable to check their contrib logs for similar tyops and fixing them. >Radiant< 14:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Posting addresses of sites which give personal details about editors is harassment

I have edited the section about posting editors' personal details, following discussion here and here. It needs to be very clear that posting addresses of websites that publish or speculate on editors' real names is forbidden per Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/MONGO#Outing_sites_as_attack_sites (and per common sense). ElinorD (talk) 08:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Legal threats

Lately I've noticed something of an increase in legal threats. To make sure the implications of such threats are clear I changed the language "may be blocked" to the stronger "will typically be blocked" that appears in WP:NLT. It's a word-for-word copy from WP:NLT so I assume it's uncontroversial, but am mentioning it here in case anyone objects. Raymond Arritt 12:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

• One could make a good case for simply merging NLT into this page. >Radiant< 13:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal security practices

Requesting comments on a proposal for a guideline on Misplaced Pages:Personal security practices that I've been working on, mainly out of the discussion on this thread at Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks#Part_two. Any comments or concerns would be appreciated. Thanks,—ACADEMY LEADER 00:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Some more teeth needs to be put into this

In light of the very sad situation regarding User:H, there needs to be more teeth not only in this policy, but WP:NPA#Off-wiki personal attacks to ensure there isn't a next time for this outrage. It's simple common sense--we have every expectation to be safe editing here. Blueboy96 13:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikistalking - Following an editor to another article to continue disruption

The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor.

This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason. Using the edit history of users to correct related problems on multiple articles is part of the recommended practices both for Recent changes patrol (RCP) and WikiProject Spam. The important part is the disruption - disruption is considered harmful. Wikistalking is the act of following another user around in order to harass them.

An editor should not be constantly followed by a single editor "to fix errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy". If someone is repetitively violating wikipedia policies, the person should be either blocked (to prevent further disruption), or the issue should be brought to community attention (if it isn't a clearcut case). If the person is really being disruptive, community would agree with it. Following an allegedly disruptive user for months is particularly unhelpful.

People stalking had been using "violations of Misplaced Pages policy" as a justification of causing distress by interpreting means to stalk from a policies/guidelines.

-- Cat 08:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree and given the issues being discussed at WP:ANI it seems this guideline might as well not exist. I don't see a need to sift through a users contribs in order to fix anything apart from vandalism. → AA — 14:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikistalking clarification

I think there needs to be more clarity in the definition of Wikistalking. People are being indef-banned based primarily on accusations of stalking, and it seems to me that there is significant gray area as to what it is and what it isn't. The current definition makes it clear that following another user's contribs "to fix errors or violations of WP policy" is okay, while doing it "with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor" is is stalking. But intent is hard to prove, especially when the actions involved are reverting edits and disputing on talk pages, rather than explicit PAs. Hypothetically, what if I come to the conclusion that another editor holds certain views that I believe erroneous, and I think it would be good for WP if I look for other places where that editor has advanced those views so that I can oppose them? Is this stalking? Does particular misbehavior need to be demonstrated, or is it always wrong to revert an edit or participate in a discussion that you found through someone's contribs page? I can see an argument for either side, and it seems to me that some people are confused as to just what is acceptable. Perhaps such situations need to be addressed specifically in the policy. --BlueMoonlet 06:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I would say that if one follows a user contributions because one disagrees with the contents of his contributions then stalking is taking place. In other words, if the edits would have been judged "constructive" by general consensus (i.e. not vandalism, disruptive) then one should assume that the user is genuinely attempting to improve the encyclopedia and not hunt down his edits to revert/contest them.

I would expect a very good rule of thumb is if the actions done following a user's contribs would have triggered 3RR or been considered otherwise edit warring if they had occurred on the same article, they are almost certainly stalking. (Not that undoing a vandal would not fall under that criterion given that reverting vandals is never 3RR). — Coren  02:52, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. If an editor has serious POV issues then looking at the editors recent contribs is reasonable and reverting problematic ones is not stalking. The truth is that stalking is very hard to define and is used generally when people already don't like an editor but can't pin anything concrete on the editor. For this reason, I'm generally very uninclined to claim someone is stalking unless there is very clear evidence. JoshuaZ 03:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"People are being indef-banned based primarily on accusations of stalking" - can you provide some examples of this? How many people have been banned? Eiler7 00:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather keep the discussion here in the general case. You can follow my contribs — seriously, I don't mind :) — if you care to do so. My main question is whether stalking should be considered an offense in an of itself, in the absence of PAs or other incivility. And if so, what differentiates stalking from acceptable consultations of another user's contribs page. --BlueMoonlet 17:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed change to WP:STALK

As I mentioned before, the WP:STALK policy is rather vague around the middle ground between researching a user's contribs to judge their RfA or to hunt down a vandal (obviously okay) and following them around to make personal attacks (obviously not okay). What I'm trying to address are accusations of this form (exaggerated somewhat to make the point): "This guy has opposed me on other topics, and he never edited on this new topic until I did. That's stalking and he should be banned!" The following is how I would write the policy if it were up to me, but what is really important to me is that the vague area be addressed in some form.

Current version:

Wikistalking refers to the act of following an editor to another article to continue disruption.

The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor.

This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason. Using the edit history of users to correct related problems on multiple articles is part of the recommended practices both for Recent changes patrol (RCP) and WikiProject Spam. The important part is the disruption - disruption is considered harmful. Wikistalking is the act of following another user around in order to harass them.

Proposed version:

Wikistalking refers to the act of following an editor to another article to continue disruption.

The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor.

Reading another user's contribution log is not in itself harassment; those logs are public for good reason. In particular, proper use of a user's edit history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles (in fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol (RCP) and WikiProject Spam). The important part is the disruption — disruption is considered harmful. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter.

Comments? --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 14:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a better approach and you've hit it on the head with "Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing" and "personal attacks". I would also suggest that unless it's vandalism patrol per WP:VANDAL, editors should be restricted to 1RR (or maybe even 0RR) as a way to measure WP:TE. → AA — 15:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

As no one has objected, I have made the change. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 20:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

A curious question: Outing public personae

Would "outing people without their consent" be defined as harassment? Say Hillary Clinton comes on to Misplaced Pages and edits as User:HillaryClinton. She goes on all the consumer rights pages and makes edits that she feels are NPOV. She edits articles related to the Senate and health care, et. al. She adds quotes and links to her own websites and published work. She makes some edits to the Rudolph Giuliani articles. Then she decides she wants to be known as User:HRCL because people keep bringing up she is Hillary Clinton and she doesn't like that. She'd prefer to edit without that bugaboo hanging over her. Then Rudolph Giuliani catches on and mentions on his website that Hillary Clinton is editing his articles as User:HRCL. When we have public figures, who espouse their views publicly in all sorts of venues, come on to Misplaced Pages, is it "outing them"? Are there any considerations for COI and POV to not mention that User:HRCL is Hillary Clinton? The ultimate question is: is RudolphGiuliani.com "outing a person without their consent" as defined in the guidelines as they are being drawn? If a person operates publicly saying the same things they say on Misplaced Pages, is it "outing" them? This question needs to be taken into consideration, since our influence has increased to a point where influential people edit us. --David Shankbone 18:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Harassment#Posting_of_personal_information:

Posting another person's personal information (legal name, home or workplace address, telephone number, email address, or other contact information, regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct) is harassment, unless that editor voluntarily provides or links to such information himself or herself. This is because it places the other person at unjustified and uninvited risk of harm in "the real world" or other media. This applies whether or not the person whose personal information is being revealed is a Misplaced Pages editor. It also applies in the case of editors who have requested a change in username, but whose old signatures can still be found in archives. --User:THF

That was not the question. --David Shankbone 19:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)