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Archives

Archive 1 - 2005 – August 22, 2007

Tim Buckley (artist)

Tim Buckley (artist) has been recreated as a standalone article. At its AFD it was redirected here, but that was 6 months ago. Since I've always supported redirection I thought I'd ask for opinions here rather than redirect myself. --W.marsh 12:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I say keep it redirected. No point in having two pages we need to defend against vandals.Thrindel 19:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I say put it back up. People say that he is known for nothing other then the comic. But couldn't the same be said about the two Penny Arcade guys and pretty much every other webcomic creator? Anyways, why doesn't he deserve one? Jest because it get a lot of vandalism, does not mean it should be deleted. If you had a computer with a lot of pop ups, you just don't get rid of it, you fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.43.180.69 (talk) 02:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason that the guys from Penny Arcade have their own pages is that they are far more notable than Buckley. Along with doing commissions for major gaming labels, they run a major charity and host the world’s biggest gaming convention. The only pages I’ve seen on webcomic creators are if they are notable for doing something else. And anyway, Ctrl+Alt+Del may be popular, but it’s not enough to give him a page, there are more popular webcomics out there, such as PvP that have no pages on their creators. Tim Buckley may make a popular comic, but it’s not enough to make a full page on him. Sanlador, 15:02, September 21, 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanlador (talk • contribs) 22:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Biggest video gaming (not gaming; Gencon is still around) convention in the country (perhaps), but not the world. The Tokyo Gaming Convention alone beats it on vendors and visitors...Just thought I should point this out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.71.144.65 (talk) 09:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Is it article-worthy to mention that Mr. Buckley has vandalized the PvP article? VTNC 17:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source you can cite to prove that he did this, that is both unbiased and appropriately verifiable? Ie, no forum or blog posts?Thrindel 19:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

How about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=prev&oldid=32072999

Considering the fact that said person tends to edit Tim Buckley and CAD pages, as well as adding

a line saying "Seriously vandalised CAD and Tim Buckley pages", I'd say this is highly likely to

be Mr. Buckley himself.

In fact, considering the fact that all of his changes involve either removing any kind of

criticism from any page he's involved in, or adding to people's pages about CAD, I think it's

true. -KBKarma. Here and there. Exactly when not needed. 18:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Picking a random anonymous IP address and calling it his is hardly what I'd call "proof", and your opinion or gut feeling isn't a verifiable source. Thrindel 19:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Tracing this IP (68.60.213.27) places it in New Haven, CT -- his city of residence. Use atracer of your choice. I used GeoBytes. This is a bit more compelling than a "random" anonymous IP, however still not concrete. Tim (talk) 00:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, using an article's discussion page to post links and poorly sourced material that you know will not make it into the article is not a workaround for spreading unverifiable rumors. This is a WP:BLP issue as well.

"We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space."

Thrindel 17:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me. I am not trying to vandalize this article. Furthermore, you are also violating policy by blanking out information on this page that is trying to be sourced, and furthermore, you are not assuming good faith. You've already been warned to stop vandalizing this article. Rebochan 17:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You are posting a link that does not meet the strict WP:V and WP:NPOV requirements of a WP:BLP article. I refer you to the above quoted section of the WP:BLP that states questionable, poorly sourced and potentially libelous material must be moved immediately and without discussion. If you can find a source that meets these requirements, then please bring it here for discussion. Otherwise, Misplaced Pages is not a place to air personal grudges.Thrindel 17:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Again with the bad faith claim. I have no grudges against Tim to air here, namely because I don't have any grudges against Tim. I only provided the link because this discussion came up and that is the source of the claims and the IP address. Furthermore, the policy is still under debate, and we're still debating whether the source is valid or not. You say it isn't. I want to discuss this before we move forward. Please stop making personal attacks against me.Rebochan 17:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is attacking you. There is no debate as to whether the source is valid. As it's a forum post, it immediately doesn't qualify as WP:V. As it's a forum post originated by a rival webcomic author it fails WP:NPOV. Finally, the post doesn't contain any real proof. It's one guy saying "this IP address has made these edits. The IP address belongs to Buckley, but I have no way to prove it, so just trust me". As the entire claim is unverifiable and is accusing a living person of an action, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages.Thrindel 17:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

As per BLP, and NPOV and WP:V, Thrindel is correct to remove information that is potentially attacking if it is not verified by sources that meet wikipedias standards for sources. Forums and blogs very rarely if ever meet this standard. Thrindel, perhaps you could have left a polite note with Rebochan to start with stating that you believed his source fails to meet standards, and Rebochan, you should have then gone to this talk page and discussed it calmly with Thrindel. I think both of you have tried to do this, but it has gotten a little too heated. There has now been an AIV report, but I can't find any evidence thus far of anything more than a passionate defence of policey. Thrindel was right to remove poorly sourced harmful content from the article, perhaps he or she could have been more polite in notifying Rebochan, however I can't find any personal attacks, and removing harmful content is not vandalism. I would appreciate someone telling me more about what is going on here. SGGH 17:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

the source provided here and here is not suitable for wikipedia. No discussion forums will suffice as sources, particularly for somethign as serious as accusing someone of vandalism their own article or an article they are related to. Thrindel clearly checked up on the source before he or she removed it, and I support this decision that that particular source is unsuitable, and should remain off the pages. Therefore I believe that Thrindel is guilty of nothing more than perhaps not giving enough of a polite message (at least not one that I can find) but nothing more. I am, however, still awaiting any evidence of personal attacks that were reported to AIV. If no personal attacks crop up, I would consider the issue resolved.... SGGH 18:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this is a response waaaaay the heck back, to where an IP address was referred to as a "random IP address". Here is a CAD usage stats page, on which that IP address (68.60.213.27) is pretty clearly listed. Google cached version used there for highlights. You can see the same IP here and here, more recently. Now, while this isn't solid evidence of this being Mr. Buckley (nor is that what I'm trying to say) it would be silly to think that it is completely unrelated.

I'm going to take a line here to be perfectly serious and state that I will not allow modification of the above line, specifically modification in the form of removing the hyperlink. It is entirely non-slanderous, and merely provides a solid correlation between the previously mentioned IP address and CAD outside the boundaried of Misplaced Pages.

I like CAD. I have no issue with Mr. Buckley at all. None. Zip. Zilch. Zero. However, it is irresponsible to refrain from any mention of alleged incidents and criticism, as there clearly is criticism. Cricicism does not need to be sourced as such; the simple length of these two discussion tangents is enough evidence of criticism, and if you wish to dispute that fact then I more than question your judgement, as well as other aspects of your psyche.

What is under question is the validity of the various forms of criticism, and so far I see little solid evidence to support such criticism. There is an abundance of circumstantial evidence, and I believe there is enough that some mention of criticism is warrented. There's certainly no need to be making allegations of criminal activity, but a mention allong the lines of:

"There has been criticism of CAD, and specifically criticism specificly of the artist Tim Buckley. These criticisms range from the percieved lack of good will on the part of Mr. Buckley towards some of his audience, to more serious reoccuring allegations with an as-of-yet lack of evidence to support them."

That's my two cents, as a wikiphile first and a long-time CAD reader second. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 21:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, "cad-hotels.com"? If anything that appears to be some fan-made blog or something, and in no way affiliated with the actual Ctrl+Alt+Del website or its creator. I have never seen that website linked from the CAD main page, nor have I ever seen Buckley use (nor can I imagine he would have any reason to use) "Onesite" as he clearly has his own servers for all of his hosting. And all of Buckley's websites are listed on the left side, with the exception of maybe wintereenmas.com. So all you've done, if anything, is point out that most likely the anonymous edits came from a fan of CAD.

Additionally, criticism is opinion by nature, not fact. "The New York Times criticized CAD for its use of vertical panel stacking instead of more traditional horizontal comic strip style, blah blah blah". That might be a criticisms worthy of inclusion into the article, because it would be A) verifiable and B) from an acceptable, and notable source. "Gamerdude43543 on some forum doesn't think CAD is funny" is in no way a criticism worthy of inclusion. It can't be cited, and it's not notable. You can't just put "There is criticism of this comic" without sources, and so far nobody can provide acceptable sources. What is it that you think makes generic criticism of this comic exceptional from every single other comic, actor, tv show or book out there that gets criticism? Everything in existence is disliked by someone out there. How is it notable? If you look at the Paris Hilton article, there are a number of the dumb things she's done listed, along with verifiable sources. Nowhere in that article do you see "lots of people dislike her", even though we all know it to be true that a great many people dislike her. A statement of that nature is neither notable or verifiable.Thrindel (talk) 00:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

First, if you can't knock off the condescending attitude, then you need to take a step back from this topic. This entire time you've been completely ignoring the "good faith" rule, which is more than a little hypocritical for someone that has been quoting acronyms left and right. I'm not the first one to mention this, and it's time for you to start toning it down a little.

As far as the site, I don't have a full grasp of how to interpret it just yet, mostly because I haven't gotten around to researching all of the IPs so far. I never made any kind of claim that this was the actions of Mr. Buckley, just that the IP certainly doesn't seem to be random. Should it be the work of some nutcase fan (and if it is a fan, I'm pretty comfortable listing them as a nutcase), then it just means that either way the issue is solved with solid evidence. In fact, since the IP is out of Georgia I'm relatively sure it's a fan, associate, or a proxy (in which case who the hell knows who it might be).

You're entirely missing what I said about criticism. I did not say if any of the criticisms/comments I've seen so far are fact or not. I said that there are criticisms, and that is fact. There is a difference. If you would take a moment, take a breath, then you can see that. I was listing an example of what could be included, not a final suggestion for something. Also, "Gamerdude43543 on some forum doesn't think CAD is funny" is not being suggested by me, and is quite obviously not something to be included. Since that's not what I'm trying to propose, using that argument isn't going to work here.

Now, what I am going to do, instead of sitting here bickering with you, is actually check around for sources and information that leans in one direction or the other. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 06:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to assign your interpretations of my attitude to a text entry which is lacking body language and tone of voice. I'm not being condescending, this is a discussion and I'm countering your arguments.

First of all, you said that the link "provides a solid correlation between the previously mentioned IP address and CAD". The closest we really get is to say "the person who made the edits is familiar with CAD, as their IP address is also seen visiting/running what appears to be a CAD fan site (though seemingly not maintained in any fashion)" Though if that IP address is making edits to the Ctrl+Alt+Del article, doesn't it already stand to reason that they are familiar with Ctrl+Alt+Del (or at least one would hope). I mean, all of our IP addresses would be found in the logs of the (real) Ctrl+Alt+Del websites, would they not? What was meant by "it's a random IP address" was not that it was some person appearing out of the blue to make edits, but that it's just a series of numbers and none of us have the tools required to put an identity to the IP address. Connecting it to a CAD-related website doesn't seem to reveal anything new, is all I'm pointing out.

Second, you didn't really address my question of why you find it necessary or beneficial to the article to add an entry along the lines of "there has been criticism of this comic", when we can't add what any of those criticisms are, or source them with valid links. I'm not really debating that the comic is criticized, as there are clearly people on this page that have criticisms of the comic, so yes it is fact. My challenge is, what makes the opinions of these people worthy of inclusion to the article? Because as I said, you could choose anything in the world and find someone who has criticisms of it. What makes the fact that this comic receives criticism exceptional and notable?Thrindel (talk) 08:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Content removal

I am going to remove the secondary characters and characters no longer in the strip from this article, since the main article List of Ctrl+Alt+Del characters covers them already.--ProtoWolf 07:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Criticism revisited

I'm removing this section of the discussion as per WP:BLP (for the exact same reasons as the argument above; see SGGH's ruling on the subject before reverting this). I am also going to leave SGGH a message so that hopefully he can come give this a look for us again and make a determination. However in the meantime, all I'm seeing here are accusations with no WP:V, and they don't belong in a Wiki article, not even the talk pages when it concerns a living person.Thrindel 07:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Thrindel, while you are quick to point out WP:NPV, WP:BLP and WP:V (with good reason in some cases) I would like you to review a few pieces as well, WP:TALK as well as WP:COI. After making a brief review of your edit history I am starting to have serious reservations as to your objectivity and would like this investigated by someone with more experience on the subject. (I freely admit that this is in part a violation of the "assume good faith" rule of WP:Talk, but there you have it)

Additionally it is generally very impolite to simply obliterate user talk comments off hand when found, if you disagree with them. If you can find me a person affiliated with Wiki who will identify the text of any of my posts as libelous here, I'll eat my hat.

Westermeyer may have been out of line, a bit, but, unfortunately that information has been disseminated across the net pretty thoroughly, and *link removed* is a pretty good listing of some of the places where the story has survived. While I don't believe it's fair (and probably not legal) to post information regarding this directly to the article, deleting it repeatedly will only result in it resurfacing in new and shifting forms on a semi-regular basis. This is something I believe you (Thrindel) are well aware of, given the fact that in my cursory glance you've removed information on the subject at least five times, correctly sighting WP:V each time. Now, I understand that the allegations are unverifiable, but, there has to be some way to put this to rest regarding this surfacing repeatedly.

I'll freely admit that I do not know the best way to deal with this piece of information. And for the most part I am content to wait until information surfaces from a WP:V or until some form of blog evaluation system is implemented to separate the genuine journalistic endeavors from the thirteen year olds with a grudge against their former favorite band.(StarkeRealm 19:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC))

I agree with you that removing people's comments may be considered rude. However when those comments contain accusations about a living person which cannot (in any way that has been shown thus far) be proven to the satisfaction of Misplaced Pages's standards, WP:BLP instructs that "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material – whether negative, positive, or just questionable – about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages". I feel it's pretty self explanatory. You admit yourself that this poorly sourced material doesn't belong in the article. The discussion page for an article is not a "workaround" for getting this stuff onto Misplaced Pages.

Many of these blogs and forum posts being linked to are accusing this man of serious criminal action, and while the same thing may have been copy and pasted onto numerous sites, that in no way acts as a substitute for proof of its validity. Having seen a few of these "accounts", I've noticed inconsistent, changing and shifting "details" between them, and in not a single one anything that even approaches "proof". And until you, or I, or someone else can provide that proof, the entire ordeal remains "questionable". And questionable material doesn't belong attached to a wikipedia article about a living person, a person who can potentially be harmed by such unfounded accusations.

So while these blog authors or forum members may have no problems throwing around serious allegations without what appears to be a shred of proof to support them, I don't that that you, or I, or certainly not Misplaced Pages wants to have a hand in accusing someone of such a serious crime. As such, and until an administrator intervenes and says otherwise, I will continue to remove these unfounded links and accusations. And I considering the ruling above by SGGH, I feel confident that this is the correct course of action.Thrindel 22:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a BIG difference between an accusation and an inference. It's a well known fact he banned many, many accounts off of his forums. He admits to it. The reason he banned them, and this is consistent across the internet and various accounts, is that he banned them because of a rumor. Someone accused him of said thing and he freaked out and banned thousands of accounts. That's not "disputed".

Also, looking at your edits, essentially every single one of them is removing some criticism of Buckley himself or the webcomic, for some reason you have dug up somewhere. it's apparent you're more concerned with preserving the public appearance of Tim than having an accurate article. I would equate you to a holocaust "revisionist" more than I would equate you to a wikipedia editor. R.westermeyer 20:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Did you really just compare some rumors about an internet cartoonist with the holocaust? I'm sure he did ban people for spamming his forums with that stuff. Hell, I would too. But thousands? Because I've talked to some people that were around during it, and they say it was more like fifty people, who kept creating new accounts to spam the forum. This is exactly my point... if you want to throw stuff around like that, back it up with something. Because it is disputed. I'm disputing it. Show proof, that's all I'm asking. If you know he "freaked out and banned thousands of people", you must have copies of the forum logs or something, yes? You must have some sort of proof that it was "thousands" and not maybe "hundreds" or "dozens", unless you're just taking someone's word for it, and frankly only the person doing the banning, or someone with access to the records would know for sure. Have you ever played the game Telephone? For all we know he banned a handful of people for accusing him of something like that, and then with every retelling of the event it got a little bit more dramatic, a little bit more elaborated.

My edits here concern the public reputation of a living person, AND having an accurate article, as so far nobody has been able to provide proof of any of these accusations. Should such verifiable proof surface, I'll accept it and be done with it. And demanding accurate, factual and neutral information is a staple of Misplaced Pages. And in the future I would appreciate and recommend that you keep your thinly veiled insults to yourself.Thrindel 20:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I compared you to a revisionist, not the comic. It's apparent to anyone who takes a look at your edits, all you do is prowl this page waiting for someone to suggest a criticism of Buckley or the comic, and then do your damnedest to keep it out of the article. As for how many people he banned, every account I have read of it has a number over 1,000 accounts. Plus, it wasn't "spamming" it was a single topic that started the whole thing. My proof is multiple accounts from different places/people that all have the same time-line of events, i.e. the name of the topic that began it is the same, the "war" that ensued is described the same way in numerous places, and to boot he and his admins admit to it happening.

Your edits here have one purpose, and that is to keep any criticism out of this article. You prowl this article and it's talk pages relentlessly, day and night, furiously deleting any comments or article additions that make Tim out to be anything but a saint. You don't care about the rest of the article, you only apply your standards to any criticism that might surface. R.westermeyer 06:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

My goal is to keep unsourced accusations out of the article. You can believe whatever you want about these rumors, based on whatever criteria you decide is "good enough" for proof. However Misplaced Pages has standards for this sort of thing, above and beyond "someone told me on the internet" or "I heard it from my brother's neighbor's aunt". I'm simply challenging you to provide proof. That's all. If you can't, then it seems this discussion has run its course.

I'm guessing you can't, since it seems you've now turned your attention to attacking me, rather than attempting to back up your original claims with any wiki-acceptable evidence.

After a quick forum search, I found a forum post from Tim where he states that the number of people banned was less than 100. So there it is, straight from the guy that runs the website. It's probably not wiki-approved, being a forum post and all, but it is a first-hand account.

And in closing, I guess my primary question here would be... so what? Proven one way or another, how is any of this important to an article about the comic? How is this notable? He banned some people from a forum for accusing him of a disgusting crime. Whoopedy-doo.Thrindel 07:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, first, there was a article where this material was directly relevant, which would be Tim Buckley (Artist) but, as I recall, you supported the idea of that being rolled into this. At which point, Buckley's behavior becomes fair game for this article, since the decision was made to combine both. If you believe information about Buckley's alleged treatment of his fans is not relevant to this article, then it is relevant to his own page. Which at present is this one. Additionally it can be argued that his failed attempt to disband his WoW guild, and behavior online that can be substantiated is relevant to a bio of him. And saying it's not is a little like claiming that say that this:

Sutherland was arrested early September 25, 2007 on misdemeanor drunk driving charges (his second time since another incident in 2004) after failing a field sobriety test. He was pulled over at around 1:10 a.m. in West Los Angeles, where he tested over the state's legal blood alcohol limit and later released on $25,000 bail.

Has no place on the Kiefer Sutherland page. (Yes I did rip that quote directly from the Kieffer page.)

It is conspicuous (and a little strange) that there is no criticism of any kind left on the Wiki page for CAD. (StarkeRealm 01:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC))

There was no discussion as to "rolling the Tim Buckley article into this one". I supported the redirection of that article to this one, as it was decided he wasn't notable enough to require his own article. As you can see, there was no "combining" of the articles. The information from the Tim Buckley (Artist) article did not move over here for a reason. This is an article about the comic strip. I fail to see how, if he's not notable enough for a separate page, it's notable that he disbanded a video game guild. People stop playing games all the time.

It's not conspicuous or strange that there is no criticism on the page. Criticism is opinion. That Kiefer Sutherland thing contains nothing but fact, and is sourced to a credible newspaper. I have no idea why you're using that as an example to support your argument.Thrindel 05:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP is not a valid point, since this is an article about webcomic, not about Tim. Criticism is directed towards the comic itself, not the autor. And deleting parts of the talk vas VERY mature. --RockyMM 17:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

The article is about the webcomic, but the additions they were suggesting, and which we are discussing here, were about Tim Buckley, a living person. So WP:BLP is a perfectly valid point. And removing those parts of the talk are supported via WP:BLP. I'd recommend you don't start throwing insults around and other editors here. This isn't a forum environment.Thrindel 17:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

The additions that I was suggesting were directed specificaly towards webcomic, but you deleted my comments without bothering to read anything that I have said. I don't visit Misplaced Pages regulary, so I was unpleasantly suprised when I've found out that my comments on this Talk page were deleted. If in fact, the additions that I was proposing were about Tim Buckley, then those should be deleted per off-topic (since this is a webcomic article, not WP:BLP. Also, I hate when editors just throw abbreviations without further discussing reasons for their actions. It is rude, and shows how little do you value other people's contributions. Also, it is as if they're trying to differentiate serious from part-time Misplaced Pages editors. I thought that every single addition is valuable regardless of who may have contributed.

It is evident that there is significant amount of criticism of the webcomic so I think that it should be included in the article. I was suggesting one, ableit comical, source, in hope to inspire other editors into finding more serious sources.--RockyMM 18:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

So what is a "significant amount" of criticism? Everything on the planet is criticized by someone somewhere. Every movie, every book. What makes criticism of this webcomic notable above and beyond anything else, that you feel the need to include mention of it without valid sources? Find a newspaper article, or a magazine article, or a TV report that has criticized the comic, and we'll talk about its inclusion in the article. But blogs and forum posts aren't valid, because there is zero accountability there. Anybody can sign up with any name, on any forum, any number of times, and post anonymously, as much of whatever they want. I don't see why 'Cooldude4576' not liking the comic is wiki-worthy. So if we remove the WP:BLP stuff concerning Buckley, and stay with the "I don't like the art, I don't like the humor" stuff, what makes it "significant?" Because I'm sure you can find that stuff about any of the larger, more popular comics on the internet.

And in addition, if you want to add a portion to the article about how there are people out there that don't like the comic, then proportionately you would need to add a section about the people that DO enjoy the comic. And since neither you or I can come up with any specific numbers as to how many people in the world like the comic and how many hate the comic, it becomes a whole matter-of-opinion mess that isn't suitable for Wiki.Thrindel 19:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

The comic and Buckley are heavily criticized across the web. The ROMicide thing, for one. He is attacked all the time for the way he makes his comic (the "copy/paste" method). He didn't link to "Child's Play", instead creating his own charity. In one memorable instance on his forums, someone in high school had made some sort of tribute animation for some kind of an art class. Tim then said something to the effect of "I'm contacting my lawyer to see if I can sue you for anything.". Nobody likes the guy. All criticism is opinion, but it is a solid fact that "someone" has been criticized for "something " by "someone".

And frankly, your deletion of comments on the talk page is simply unacceptable. You have done it to multiple people including myself now, citing things like "libel" and WP:e.g.. You don't seem to grasp the concept of libel, though, nor do you understand the reasons why Misplaced Pages is so worried about it. Posting an opinion on the talk page is NOT libel. In short, leave the comments the hell alone. R.westermeyer 07:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Nobody likes the guy, eh? I'd love to see you back that one up with a source.Thrindel 16:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)'

Highlighting some exaggeration on my part doesn't do much. It was plain that I didn't really mean "nobody", yet you chose to only respond to that. Obviously, you cannot find any other arguments and are resorting to the inevitable position of someone losing an argument, you have started to ignore what I said and focus on how I said it. R.westermeyer 17:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Then perhaps I should have pointed out that writing that Buckley has done these things without backing them up with any proof/sources is exactly what Libel is. The laws against Defamation are in place for the exact purpose of preventing people from just saying anything they want about someone. And if Misplaced Pages were to allow this unsourced material to remain on their web site, they could potentially be charged of it as well. That's one of the reasons they have very clear rules for its removal. In fact, any of the blogs and forum posts you'd like to link to could all be named as defendants if Buckley ever saw them and decided to sue for defamation of character.

I don't have to focus on what you're saying, because you're still saying exactly what you've been saying since the beginning of this discussion, which is "I want to accuse Buckley of this stuff, but I can't find any valid sources to back it up". And since in this country people are innocent until proven guilty, and it is the accuser's responsibility to prove guilt, and you cannot seem to do that, it would see that you are on the losing side of this argument.

I distinctly recall Ctrl+Alt+Del running banners for Child's Play the first year the charity began. What charity of his own did Buckley create? I don't see him running a charity. I see him supporting a different charity each year. And furthermore, why is it a criminal act to not link to Child's Play? What if he did want to create his own charity? So what?

If Buckley threatened to sue someone, link to the forum post.

At this point, it would seem this discussion has run its course. You are not producing any new sources for discussion on inclusion into the article.Thrindel 19:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

In another note, I understand that you feel these things should be a part of the article for whatever reason. However things of this nature must be backed up with sources that meet Misplaced Pages's standards. I am charging you to produce valid sources for the various accusations you continue to make, otherwise they stand to be removed from the talk page as per WP:BLP in respect to the living person in question. If you cannot do this but insist on continuing to add these accusations to the article or talk page, then I think it is pretty clear that we are at an impasse. If you would like to involve Misplaced Pages directly, we can petition for a mediation of the matter.Thrindel 21:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Buckley cannot sue anyone for libel/defamation because of the talk page. They are opinions. That's like saying George Bush could sue me me because I said I don't like his Iraq policy. Saying things on the talk page isn't something anyone will be suing about, so you shouldn't be removing things from it. I haven't gone into the article saying "buckley is a _____", stop acting as if I have. And yes, I know BLP applies to the talk page as well, but there is a difference between me posting something libelous (i.e., I make a claim, have sources which back up said false claim). Me posting "well, I think Buckley should have a criticism section because of A, B, and C" does not constitute libel. It is an opinion.

Furthermore, you don't seem to understand what I think should be put in the article. I'm not saying we should be cataloging ever little thing he has done to piss someone off, I'm saying that there should be at least a MENTION somewhere in the article that he has done a fair amount of things people do not agree with. I'm sure I could find multiple sources that all say nearly the same things about the ROMicide, the charity thing, threatening to sue etc., although I'm also sure your clipboard has a significant number of WP:___ links to get the section removed somehow. In light of that, I'm merely trying to get some mention of the fact that a good amount of people do not like him. He has even been accused of vandalizing wikipedia, to boot.

I do not feel the discussion has run its course, and again I don't appreciate you accusing me of editing this article for my own benefit. (Which I understand, you have been accused of in the past) R.westermeyer 06:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you're accusing him of a great many things, and you can't back up a single one of them. I don't think you understand libel and defamation (and saying he can't sue is ridiculous. People can sue for anything these days). Saying "I don't like Bush's Iraq Policy" is an opinion. Saying "Bush is killing kittens to support his Iraq policy" is libel if you don't back it up with some sort of proof. You're not here saying "I don't like Buckley", you're saying "Buckley did X and Y and Z, but I have no proof." It doesn't matter where it is, a forum, a Wiki talk page, or a national newspaper, if it's printed it's libel. If you're saying it to someone, it's slander. There aren't magical places where it doesn't "count" because you're "just talking".

You want a mention that a "good amount" of people don't like him. Again I ask, what is notable about that? Furthermore, how do you plan to prove/measure what a "good amount" is? Do you have a polling system in place where you can reach everyone that's heard of the comic? Or are you just basing this on the number of people that post in an internet thread saying they don't like him? And who are you to speak on the mindset of everyone else? Are you even taking into consideration all of the people that read the website and do like him? How do you know that the number of people that don't like him is dwarfed by the number of people that do? You don't, and you probably never will. Nobody will. Which is why vague comments like "A lot of people don't like him" aren't allowed in Wiki articles.

So now that we've established that vague blanket statements won't work, you have the option of entering some fact about one of the reasons that he's supposedly disliked by many. Except you are unable to do that either, since you can't back them up with any sources.

You mention he was accused of vandalizing a wiki article? I suggest you look at the discussion section right above this one, where a ruling on that was already made. A ruling which applies to all of these similar accusations which you insist on continuing to bring up. And endless amount of arguing is not going to alter the Wiki rules, here. They're pretty straightforward. I'm not accusing you of editing anything for your own benefit, but finding multiple unverifiable, biased sources does not equal one valid source. I can not understand why you continue to argue the same points that have already been shown un-wiki-worthy.Thrindel 16:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be fair to say that there is definitely some people that dislike him the artist, and others who similarly dislike the comic itself. As to whether we'll ever find any source that is reliable though, that would be a matter of contention. To put to context, RoMicide is in the urban dictionary, theres the blog which supposedly dissects how bad CAD is in loving detail (which aren't my words, but the online producer of PCMag.com), and then you have the Hockey Zombie forums, which to my understanding is like a direct result of the RoM incident. There's also the CAD entry in the encyclopaedia dramatica which I really think isn't worth our time but is exceedingly negative and mentions the RoM incident down to the date it happened. Then theres that comic which seems to insinuate that Tim Buckley is a narcissist.

All that I'm pointing out is that there is some level of dislike towards either the artist and/or the webcomic. What I do believe it doesn't give us though, is any verifiable sources. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 03:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Right, no verifiable sources. Which has already been established, so it doesn't really require you re-linking all of the unsuitable blogs and forum posts that have already been removed for the reason that they don't meet the requirements to be considered valid sources and violate WP:BLP. As has been confirmed by an administrator in the discussion section directly above this one.Thrindel 04:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Was unaware they were already linked before and have been removed. Doesn't really matter. I am just curious over what appears to be very vocal opposition towards the webcomic and artist. If it turns out to just be a very vocal minority, then I would concur, that there is nothing to add on the subject. I can keep digging though I doubt I'll come up with much. Chan Yin Keen | Talk 06:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to remind you Thrindel, that WP:BLP is not valid point in this article. RockyMM 11:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. WP:BLP is one of the biggies in Misplaced Pages and it can't be circumvented by wikilawyering over the specific nature of an article. No article, regardless of its main content, may violate the policy laid down in WP:BLP. There are no exceptions and given the nature of the criticsm that frequently crops up in this article, not only does it have BLP issues, it's a posterboy for them. –Abe Dashiell 14:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

CAD does not have any humor. /discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.10.145.235 (talk) 21:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Your personal opinion hardly suffices to wrap up any discussion on the matter so simply. If you wish to discuss something for inclusion in the article, then please do so here. But wikipedia is not a forum, please do not treat it as such.Thrindel 06:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

In case anyone misses it, my contribution in the Vandalism section above is also directly related to this discussion as well. It simply made more sense to include there due to my direct mention of the IP address that is... well, addressed up there. Consider my response as concerning both of this matters, because it is. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 21:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The biggest issue surrounding this section is that the events described, and the observed actions of the subject were all experienced by an online community. The nature of everything described here took place on forums or in a video game and were only documented on blogs or on other forums. Essentially, the "evidence" supporting everything mentioned above will never satisfy the requirements of Misplaced Pages as they stand unless provisions are made to accommodate them.

If it is that important to some people to make these things known (via Misplaced Pages, anyway), then it seems to me that those who were directly involved will need to come out in the open with their real names and describe what happened as they saw it. That allows for accountability, and heck, witnesses work in a courtroom, so that should also be acceptable here, right? I don't mean here on the talk page, but presumably if some dedicated individual performed their own investigative study or something. Tim (talk) 00:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't really feel like putting a first and last name on "ForumUser01" really adds any accountability or credibility to any claims. Yes, witnesses are called in courtrooms to corroborate evidence, but that evidence has to be there in the first place. No convictions are made based solely on witness testimony, and rightfully so given the alarming number of witness testimonies that are often years or decades later proven false. Additionally, lying under oath is a criminal offense, which is at least some motivation to most people to be truthful in their retelling of accounts. As this is nowhere near a legal preceding, with no true accountability or consequences for the accusations being made against this person, I would assume that "ForumGuy01" would have no less trouble claiming any of these things as his user handle, than as "John Smith", if you get my meaning.Thrindel (talk) 01:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

This videogame critic for escapist magazine critized CAD for being prolix here VTNC (talk) 02:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

A specific page of CAD that contains a lot of text appearing for less than a second on Yahtzee's review of Mass Effect while he talks about games that contain too much dialogue hardly qualifies as criticism. Yahtzee could have chosen any comic whatsoever. CornedBee (talk) 12:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Possible User Bias To Be Reviewed

While reviewing all of the information my friends and I have archived regarding the critisim of Ctrl+Alt+Del and Tim Buckley, and grazing over this talk page to get further familiarized, my friends and I came across something potentially rather amazing.

Noticed that the user Thrindel has been here quite a bit editing both the main ctrl+alt+del article, and the talk article. But quite a bit we mean more than any other user here..

It appears that at the very same time the alleged Tim Buckley IP address stopped editing wikipedia, Thrindel began to seriously edit here at wikipedia. That with only a 10 day difference in between the two editors. It also doesn't help that very similar to the pattern of edits that the Tim Buckley IP made, Thrindel has spent his entire two year existence here at wikipedia ONLY editing ctrl+alt+del's article, the talk page, and the talk pages of users editing either ctrl+alt+del's article or talk page. That's it.

That smacks of some form of self-interest to me. As such, I submit the wikiscanner page of edits made by Tim Buckley's alleged IP address ], and the user contributions page of Thrindel ] for peer debate, cross reference and discussion. My friends and I personally believe that Thrindel may in fact -be- Tim Buckley, somebody with a ties to, or somebody with a personal interest in keeping the wiki clear of anything that may be seen in a possibly negative light with regards to Tim Buckley or Ctrl+alt+Del.

What does everybody else think? Two years at Wiki, and all the edits circle here? I think it's just too coincidental to be a coincidence. Alphus Omegus (talk) 20:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

First of all, as has been repeatedly discussed, that IP address was never confirmed to belong to Tim Buckley. I would appreciate if you stopped referring to it as it as fact. The original revelation came from a forum post, which is first and foremost not a reliable or accountable source. This has been discussed ad nauseum, and has been ruled by admins to be innapropriate for these pages, as such I am editing your comment to once again remove these links and claims. Please do not insist on reposting the same source and citing it as fact.

Second of all, and more importantly, I do not believe you are assuming good faith WP:AGF, and I do not appreciate these accusations in an attempt to discredit my intentions here. I view a number of Misplaced Pages articles, on various subjects of interest to me, however in most cases I possess no new knowledge about said subjects that is not already included in the articles. As is even the case with this article, I do not possess any additional, noteable, sourceable and factual information on Ctrl+Alt+Del that has not already been included in the article. My edits here, however, do not require me to have additional knowledge to add to the article, only an understanding that it is unacceptable to add these unsourced accusations to an article where it concerns a living person. They are not my rules, I am simply trying to enforce them to the best of my ability, in an environment that is obviously under constant vandalism and attack from people that clearly have no intention of trying to better the article. I am neither Tim Buckley, nor do I have any personal relationship or vested interest to him outside of being a reader of his work, and not wishing to see someone's reputation slandered without some reasonable proof. There is a reason Misplaced Pages has these policies in place, and I would not have to make nearly as many edits to remove the same few unacceptable sources over and over again if people did not insist on reposting them all the time, when they clearly don't measure up to Misplaced Pages's standards. And I will be bringing your breach of good faith to the attention of an administrator, in the event that this subject may require mediation/arbitration.Thrindel (talk) 21:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the IP address. Cultural things happen on the internet all the time, and until wikipedia begins to recognise things that don't just happen in pop culture or on major news media, then it will just hamper documentation of the cultural flourishing that occurs in this unique environment. Misplaced Pages itself cannot be used as a source in colleges and universities. It's too subject to bias and misinformation -as it is-.

Be my guest. I understand the need to police articles. You've been policing the same article for over two years. It just seems a bit, I don't know...Unhealthy? Besides, it's not like I didn't check everybody else on the page too. I didn't have bad faith in anybody in particular, you just seemed to fit a very specific pattern that I thought was rather unusual. Other people have brought it up in previous talk areas on this page. I just thought to myself "Man...This guy has been doing nothing but police this one article for two years!"

I would either have to assume that you have some sort of personal vested interest in this page to dedicate two entire years + of your life solely to it on wikipedia. That or you need to get out and see the internet more, because if you want so badly to be the police dog you seem to want to be, then why not turn that sort of mentality towards other articles here at Misplaced Pages? Why just this one for two solid years?

I always kind of thought that the good faith/bad faith thing was well intentioned, but not beneficial or even appropriatly enforcable. Like I said earlier, even colleges and universities don't have enough good faith if you will in wikipedia to count it as a source. If you live in a world and expect everybody to be nice to you, then you run the risk of being incredibly surprised in a most terrible way. You cannot blindly assume that everybody on the internet have the ultimate list of morals that web pages are run by complete darlings. Perhaps that will get me B& some day (or today for that matter), but you can't just live by blind assumptions in this world. Alphus Omegus (talk) 02:07, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

And the reason colleges and universities don't allow it as a source is because of people attempting to add information without any including any proper citation, such as the case here. Forums are not considered inappropriate sources because Misplaced Pages refuses to acknowledge the internet, it's because of the anonymity, zero accountability, and the willingness of certain people to use both of these facts to just say absolutely anything they please about anyone.

Whether you agree with good faith or not, it is a common etiquette around Misplaced Pages. Attempting to attack me personally, or discredit me, does not in any way may the sources or information you are trying to post any more valid. These policies are in place with or without me here to enforce them, and it really doesn't require that much dedication to put a link in your bookmarks and check up on it every once in a while. Additionally, you need to have some clear evidence before you accuse someone of acting in bad faith, not just your assumptions. I might have just as easily questioned your vehement motives for inserting this information over and over again, but I don't. I assume you are editing with the intention of genuinely improving the article, even though your methods violate policy. That is the purpose of good faith, so that discussions don't devolve into personal attacks.

Now since you've decided to turn this discussion away from improving the article, and direct it towards personal attacks to me, I would like to suggest a truce until we can get some third party arbitration here.Thrindel (talk) 02:33, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to submit to a truce, and I'll even go as far as to concede that it's possible I'm wrong in all of this. But you to should also concede that it is quite odd that an individual would patrol a webcomic page for two solid years, and the reason they give for not editing -any- other page is because they don't know enough about -any- other subject that wikipedia covers? That reason seems a little bit flimsy. One would assume that a person would learn something valuable about at least -some- other topic in the span of two years. Any other topic. Coming to this one page every month for two solid years...smacks of a person who desires to keep control of the image of the article or a person they claim they have absolutely no connection to. At least concede to me that this seems a little bit more than just strange.

It's also interesting that wikipedia doesn't even acknowledge the medium that it exists in. That seems a little hypocritical. If wikipedia doesn't trust the internet...and wikipedia is -part- of the internet...is wikipedia telling me I shouldn't trust wikipedia? Hence the difficulty behind good faith/bad faith. For the same reason you cannot blindly trust most of the internet, you cannot blindly trust the editors here at wikipedia.

By the way, my "Vehement Motive" as you put it to edit was only to edit My Own Statements, and I was doing so for clarification on my own statements. I haven't deleted or edited the post of any other individual, not once. You have. At least you were cordial enough to give reasons, but if you want to be admin-police, then you need to work on more than one page.

Also, is not the statement "I might have just as easily questioned your vehement motives for inserting this information over and over again, but I don't." the same kind of "Personal attack" you claim I'm launching on you? Isn't that like saying "I might have thought you were here to screw all of this all up, but I don't"...Kind of a backwards way to make a rather pointed statement. I'm not trying to launch a personal attack, I'd just like some clarification, and so far your only answer as to why you edit no other page on the entire wiki is because you've managed to keep yourself ignorant and completely oblivious to absolutly every other topic covered here. Is that not just a little bizzare?

Fine, you have had your last words and I have had my rebuttal. I agree to a truce until a third party arbitrator can be assigned. I am interested to see how this can be amicably resolved. Alphus Omegus (talk) 02:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Removing the Winter-een-mas Section

Until someone can provide a good reason for it to be included. Preferably, a reason that can be referenced in a way that doesn't link directly to the CAD site. --Cerebrus13 21:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed... though it appears someone else has already done just that. Cerebrus, if you want to remove this header, and my post, by all means, go ahead. (StarkeRealm 19:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC))

Not to sound like a total idiot but, that item was linked to another page, which creates a dead link to an article that does not exist. Specifically a link can be found on the unofficial heading under holidays, therefor, shouldn't it be left in as it has a link and redirect thereof? --69.54.129.205 10:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it should stay, if we're going to include information about the themes of this comic then winter-een-mas section should definitely stay. It usually is used as the central theme during the "holiday season". R.westermeyer 20:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph in the page intro sums it up pretty well, the rest was useless fluff. Besides that, the only references for the section were for individual CAD comics, which isn't exactly a "reliable 3rd party." --68.252.68.98 22:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it has to be a 3rd party when the sources are used in articles about themselves. Since it's an article about Ctrl+Alt+Del, the CAD website can be used as a source. At least, that's how I'm reading the section in WP:V.Thrindel 22:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

If it had been rolled into a section about the plot, and the fictional holidays linked to that, that's one thing, and it's fine. Giving it it's own heading is a little fuzzier. Does it have any implication beyond just the plot line of the comics? It should be mentioned in the plot section by all means, but, there's no need to go into great detail about it especially if the information isn't relevant to much of anything. At best the section was trivia in disguise. (StarkeRealm 01:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC))

CAD Radio

Is it really necessary to include this on the Ctrl+Alt+Del article? Sure, they're assosciated, but this article was written for the "gaming-related webcomic and animated series written by Tim Buckley," and not for a web radio that really has nothing to do with the comic other than support its fanbase. This isn't really any direct attack, I am just wondering why you really need it there since it's not a very notable or distinguished topic, and doesn't really have a direct influence on the comic and animated series itself.--70.230.149.172 03:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

It might not be a bad idea to roll all those headers at the bottom, the print issues, the radio and the animated series into a alternate formats header. (StarkeRealm 22:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC))

How about no. 216.55.210.213 00:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)SomeX

Why does this have a heading at all? From what I understand it no longer exists and the only links to it that I can find are quotes from this wikipedia page. It seems a lot like a Vanity piece made by the users who are named there to me. It's not notable. Mmkotler (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Arguments and the article

Having read through the arguments on the talkpage, reverting of comments, changing other members comments and accusations as to whether or not someone is Tim Buckley or not. There seems to be much more interest in arguing than improving the currently not so great article.

Is there a need to discuss all that? This is after all the article about the webcomic. --carocat (talk) 22:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I've asked an administrator to come in here and maybe offer some guidance on the dispute. Things were nice and quiet in here for about a month, until a day or two ago.

As per the article, I went to skim through the website to see if there was any information that could be added. What about that Ctrl+Alt+Del picture packs and the animated series is now offered on Xbox live ], would that be article-worthy? Maybe also some additional information about Digital Overload? Thrindel (talk) 22:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's been cropping up a lot over the last few days..

Im thinking the article could do with a rework, there are some duplicates, uneccessary long sections and the character section which doesn't need to be as long considering there is a seperate article on it. I was going to go through and move things about a little in the next few days unless someone has objections? carocat (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the character section is a bit redundant given the separate list page. Perhaps just a brief overview paragraph of the main characters, and then the link to the list page?Thrindel (talk) 23:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

1. "Kiefer Sutherland Out On Bail, Night Of DUI Video Online: 24 Details!". The Post-Chronicle. 2007-09-25. Retrieved 2007-09-25.

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