Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jayjg (talk | contribs) at 15:26, 5 July 2005 (→Major Rewrite: some sources are poor quality). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Instead of repeating the phrase "great hardship on the Palestinian population" about 4 times, it would be more helpful if someone wrote at least a sentance to give some idea what effect the curfew had on Palestinian life.

what does Rammallah means?

just by curiosity, what does the name Ramallah mean? i assume its Ram(meaning??) + Allah("God"), so what does Ram mean? - --Cyprus2k1 14:28, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't speak Arabic but Google says it means "God's High Place". Alensha 18:37, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ram

Ram is defined as a "hill" - so Ram Allah would mean Hill of God

Major Rewrite

I've been working on rewriting this article for a few weeks now (in my free time). The article that was there before was horribly lacking and focused on a very narrow aspect of what Ramallah is, not to mention many factually incorrect assertions. I hope people like this better, and agree that it's as neutral as possible. Ramallite 3 July 2005 07:46 (UTC)

Much of it is good, but other parts are contentious. To begin with, please remember that this is an article about Ramallah, not the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As such, it should only contain information that is directly relevant to Ramallah, and not simply be a reprise of the conflict from the Palestinian POV. As well, it contains some unsourced material, and some POV material. My edits and comments on the edits should make that clear. Jayjg 3 July 2005 08:03 (UTC)

I'll have to work on your edits a little later on, but before I do, maybe you might want to consider these:

• Mention of the curfew clamped on Ramallah for the census did not have to be removed as it was accurate
  • How long did it last? This is the whole history of Ramallah, how much detail is needed about this particular event in this still small article? The exact method of conducting the census is not particularly relevant. Jayjg 3 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)

• Will add my UN source of Ramallah land confiscated - although English references are hard to find
  • Good. Jayjg 3 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)

• Molotov cocktails were common, but hand grenades, explosives, and gunfire? Do you have sources for these? I remember reading about one or two instances of gunfire, but that's about it....
  • Apparently there were over 100 hand grenade attacks and more than 500 attacks with guns or explosives. Jayjg 3 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)
    • Where is the (reliable) source for these stats? Ramallite 3 July 2005 16:41 (UTC)
      • The information comes from the Intifada article itself. Jayjg 3 July 2005 19:26 (UTC)
• The are called "Jewish settlements" for 2 reasons: 1- Not all who live in them are Israeli citizens, although they are all Jewish (incl non-citizen new immigrants), and 2- non-Jewish Israelis are not allowed to live there (i.e. Israeli Arabs, Druze, Beduin, others are not allowed in the settlements). Therefore they are called "Jewish" settlements.
  • The world (and Misplaced Pages) has a name for them. Would you prefer "Jewish towns"? Jayjg 3 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)
    • Actually I would prefer "Jewish-only colonies", since that is what they effectively are. But that's just me, since you asked :) Ramallite 3 July 2005 16:41 (UTC)

• That there were many Palestinian fatalities in the first days of Intifada 2 is very significant, they did not slowly revert to arms because it's fun, but because of the overwhelming and excessive use of force (not my words) of the Israeli response to the demonstrations that left so many dead or wounded....
  • This is an article about Ramallah, not an article about the whole conflict. If the text is something that would have to be copied into every single article on every town and village in the West Bank and Gaza, then that's a good sign it is generic information that belongs in some other article. Jayjg 3 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)
    • But the demonstrations in Ramallah were one of the most reported because of the casualties, and the fact that they also happened elsewhere doesn't in any way diminish their importance to Ramallah specifically in this article. If an earthquake struck Palestine and damaged structures in many cities including Ramallah (such as what happened in 1927), you can't argue that if you are writing only about Ramallah, you can't mention the earthquake damage there. Ramallite 3 July 2005 16:41 (UTC)
      • If you have information specifically about the Ramallah demonstrations, that would be a great addition; generic information about the overall conflict is not helpful. Regarding the earthquake, if you had information about damage to Ramallah structures, that would make sense here; overall, the quake would be documented in an article about the British Mandate. Jayjg 3 July 2005 19:24 (UTC)
• According to the referred source, only one body was thrown from the balcony and dragged on the streets, not both. (re lynching).
  • Really? Most sources I've seen indicate it was both. If correct, I suppose the article could be modified to reflect that, though I don't understand what substantive difference it makes - do you think it makes the whole incident less horrific? That if Israelis had only known that it wouldn't have had as big an impact on them? Was the blood on the palms of one of the lynchers which he proudly displayed out the window also from only one of the Israelis? Should the article reflect that as well? Jayjg 3 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)
    • Not necessary to put words in my mouth. That comment was there because you attach great emphasis on making sure the written content agrees with the source, nothing more. If we want to talk about who has done more horrific things to the other, we can, but not in this article. The Palestinians did not build a shrine to honor the killers in the mob, unlike what settlers did for Baruch Goldstein who mowed down 29 Palestinians in Hebron in '94 Ramallite 3 July 2005 16:41 (UTC)
      • I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was using hyperbole and sarcasm to make a point; that said, it was uncivil, and I apologize. Regarding Goldstein, he certainly has some supporters, who believe the intent and effect of his acts was to avert a much larger pogrom by Arabs. However, the vast majority of Israelis viewed his actions with horror, and Kach was banned as a direct result of supporting his actions. In contrast, from what I can tell, the Palestinian response to the lynching was mostly support and justification; if there were other reactions, I'd be interested in hearing about them. Jayjg 3 July 2005 19:24 (UTC)
        • There was plenty of justification yes, but not sure about actual "support' though; no actual poll that I know of was taken regarding sentiments towards the lynching, but as far as justification, if only there was a way to publish the pictures of the mangled faces of the dead or wounded Palestinians around Ramallah in the two weeks prior. That would put the wild anger of the mob in context (doesn't make it all right though, it's all damn unfortunate). Ramallite 4 July 2005 03:51 (UTC)
• The crappy economic conditions as cited by the world bank was a major factor in many Ramallah expatriates leaving and going back where they came from - why did you delete that? The wall going up around the city is also significant and directly relevant to Ramallah - again, why did you delete that?
  • See above; if the information applies to every Palestinian town and city, then it belongs in a more general article, not here. And I didn't remove the information about the barrier going up around the city. Jayjg 3 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)
    • Again, unless it also happens to be directly pertinent to Ramallah-specific events, such as the exodus of expatriates Ramallite 3 July 2005 16:41 (UTC)
      • Yes, if you can find some Ramallah specific information that would be great. Jayjg 3 July 2005 19:24 (UTC)

Ramallite 3 July 2005 09:10 (UTC)

Ramallite, your re-write obviously took a lot of effort, and made a significant improvement to the article. However, I think if you look at the article with a more dispassionate eye, you will realize that even now it contains a great deal of information, particularly in the latter sections, that is generically about the conflict, and not specifically related to the city itself. It would be like, for example, having a long section about the reasons, causes, and effects of the Civil War in the United States inserted into the individual articles describing every city and town in the United States that existed at that time. Yes, they were all affected by the war in one way or another; but only information relevant to the individual cities and towns (e.g. if the town was burnt down by invading troops) belong in the specific articles. Jayjg 3 July 2005 19:24 (UTC)

I spent some time making sure that anything that was too general was so just to put the situation in context before refocusing of Ramallah itself. What is probably hard for non-Ramallah residents to understand is that the story of the Intifada is the story of Ramallah in many respects. There were so many fatalities, house demolitions, rocket attacks, closure, etc in Ramallah that just kept getting worse since 1987. I have tried my best to deviate only when necessary for context, and then promptly refocus on Ramallah. I wrote what I did assuming that many readers have no knowledge of the details that led to the current conflict. Describing why the two Intifadas started was needed for context before I could describe their impact on Ramallah residents. The unemployment and world bank information was necessary to explain why the expatriates (a largely Ramallah-only phenomenon) returned to where they came from. Also, operation defensive shield had its unique toll on Ramallah as I tried to point out. In Nablus, it was a month-long curfew and 90 dead Palestinians in the Kasbah; in Jenin, it was the Jenin camp killings and razing of half the camp; and in Ramallah, it was the sporadic killing of those that violated curfew (including a couple of kids under 10 who just happened to walk out onto the balcony who got a bullet to the head) but especially the vandalism and theft that the invasion is remembered for. I do have a lot more Ramallah specific info, but I try to source my info from international sources as much as possible, which limits a lot of information unfortunately. Please point out any segments that you think are too general, and I'll try to see if I can fix those. Thanks Ramallite 4 July 2005 03:51 (UTC)

The lengthy descriptions of the CA are general and probably belong in more general article, as is the information about the Madrid Peace Conference, and still some of the general description of the Al-Aqsa intifada. Jayjg 4 July 2005 17:07 (UTC)

By the way, do you wonder, as I do, whether the middle east-related pages actually have more editors than readers? Ramallite 4 July 2005 03:54 (UTC)

Ones like this probably get few readers. General ones, like Israel or Palestine or Six-Day War, get many, many readers. Jayjg 4 July 2005 17:07 (UTC)

Ramallite, I have to say the quality of some of the links provided is pretty poor. Anonymous opinion pieces really don't belong on Misplaced Pages, and some of the other sources provided, while not anonymous, might as well be, since they quote unknown or anonymous people, or people making vague and unsourced claims, and in any event come from clearly highly biased sources. Jayjg 5 July 2005 15:26 (UTC)