Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sharavanabhava (talk | contribs) at 22:04, 24 January 2008 (→Dispute resolution: not inappropriate). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Please don't leave messages here, as I will not see them. See the edit history for previous discussions.

Ivies

Pardon my interest, but what is it that brings you back, after 6 months of inactivity, to comment on Adam's RfC? Antelan 07:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been watching the article and topic. When I started, the coverage was very very weak. THe main article, I thought, was a mess. It wasn't well organized into sections that made sense as parts of a coherent whole, it didn't flow, things were repeated all over the place, etc. It was overlong and many articles that should have been subarticles had been deleted and merged into the main article rather than improved.

I thought I could help to improve things. Given my background as a traditionally trained and practicing MD with an editorial background and some knowledge and interest in homeopathy, I thought I could make a contribution to the overall subject area and have some fun with Misplaced Pages at the same time.

I did (I think strong) work intially when some biographies of some internationally known homeopaths which were being afded by adam (and a few others)---you can look at the stuff on my user page to see some of the comments I made and edits I did. I found this kind of ironic in an encyclopedia which has extensive pages for individual soccer matches and cartoon show episodes :=), but whatever. I looked up the criteria for notability, improved the articles, and pointed out the criteria on the AFD talk pages.

It seemed bizarre that most of the editors participating in the homeopathy pages really didn't know much about the actual topic and seemed less interested in learning more about it than in protecting the encyclopedia from it. There was a lot of labeling and warning going on and not much explication and description.

I stayed away from the main page initially as it was such a minefield, but when I started to make edits on that page I was bashed pretty much immediately. Misplaced Pages doesn't earn my salary, take care of my patients, get me any publications; it is entirely a volunteer pursuit. When this happened, I turned my energies elsewhere. I have a lot to do.

ONe of the things which I found particularly troubling was the degree to which AC was using admin tools and editing simultaneously. He was never uncivil, but he seemed to be ignoring accepted standards for administrative behavior. It is problematic in a community project like this when selected individuals feel morally justified in not following the rules set forward for participants on various levels. I have a lot of sympthy for Adam. He is without doubt a very well-intentioned young man with hopefully a promising future in the real world. He has made some great contributions to the encyclopeida. However, it is wrong for him to be so personally involved as an editor in a subject matter while also being one of the most involved admins in the subject matter.

When I noticed that the larger community had noticed this problem, I decided to add my voice to the discussion.

I hope this satisfies your curiousity. Feel free to contact me with any further quesitons. Abridged 14:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Note

Actually, I was looking at the Homeopathic remedies category after it was mentioned on Talk:Potassium dichromate. I could see adding a link to the Arnica montana going to a page on the homeopathic remedy, but I don't think that a long list of things it's used to treat is appropriate; it could even verge on inappropriate within the scope of homeopathy, since homeopathy is supposed to be individualised. Adam Cuerden 18:49, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't support the removal of sourced relevant content. Abridged 18:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Connection?

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but if you're not related to the homeopathy industry, either as a user or producer, in some way, why are all of your edits - or at least the ones I scanned through - about homeopathy? Just a casual interest? PouponOnToast (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

back when I signed up for Misplaced Pages, I was looking for a field to edit in. I was exploring an interest in homeopathy and thought that adding content to wikipedia from sources might be a good way to expand my knowledge and also help improve wikipedia at the same time.

I am a traditionally trained and practicing MD, and have research training and editorial background. I make my living practicing conventional medicine and believe in what I do. I do not have a homeopathic practice, but I have sent a few patients who weren't being helped with the conventional approaches and asked me about alternative approaches to a local homeopath on a consultation basis, as I've referred to other alternative providers when it seemed appropriate and the patient asked me to. Most, quite honestly, were not helped but one or two were helped quite a bit.

All in all, I maintain an interest in homeopathy and a skepticism about the field at the same time.

If you don't believe that I do not have some kind of a commerical conflict of interest, I am happy to share my identity with a bureaucrat off line. Abridged 22:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I assume good faith. However, if you are truly interested in improving knowledge as opposed to improving the optics of homeopathy on the encyclopedia, perhaps you could branch your editing out to areas of less dispute in addition to your work in defending homeopathy from skeptics. In fact, I'll make a deal with you - for every article you substantially improve that has nothing to do with homeopathy or any other alternative medicine/pseudoscience (by my definition, not yours), I will make equally substantial improvements in an article that has nothing to do with any of my areas of interest. Deal? PouponOnToast (talk) 22:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually really busy (I probably work 60-70 hours a week) and don't have much time to do random stuff so I can't promise that I will edit much. I was reading about homeopathy at the time I was editing, so thought I'd kill two birds with one stone by improving wiki in that area. I am not really interested in proving anything to you, or having you prove any thing to me, but as I said if you are concerned about conflict of interest I'm happy to prove that I don't have one :=) Abridged 22:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Personal attack?

While I apologise for any offense caused, your behaviour in every debate about homeopathy - to the point of objecting to an AfD not because of any good reason, but because you disliked me challenging anything remotely having to do with homeopathy, seems to justify the description. Adam Cuerden 21:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That is inaccurate!!! You know as well as I do that I participated in many afds by citing notablility criteria to show articles met them. You know I improved many articles to meet criteria. I'll add links in a moment. Your last AFD request on a bio of a homeopath was a bit ill timed as you are the subect of an rfc, and I don't think there was anything wrong with saying that. The AFD in question was successful, but I think that I also said that I thought the subject was notable and the article should be improved rather than deleted. I also don't think there was anything wrong with that. Abridged 22:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

MORE:

Here are some diffs of discussions I participated in about AFDS. See if any of these justify your insulting and inaccurate description:

• Rajan Sankaran
• Elizabeth Wright Hubbard
• George Vitjoulkas2
• Robin Murphy (click through to see Deletion Review discussion:]

Here are a few articles which were prodded, which I improved:

• Improvements to Paul_Herscu article
• Improvements to Elizabeth Wright Hubbard article
• Improvement to Jeremy Sherr

Abridged 22:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I note you mentioned that this behavior might be appropriate for an RfC/U. I'd be inclined to agree if that is appropriate in light of the ongoing ArbCom matter. —Whig (talk) 22:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I was referring to the Jawahar Shah AfD, but never mind. There really doesn't seem much poitn talking to the two of you at this time. Adam Cuerden 23:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

(from Adam Cuerden user page, deleted with the edit comment "Delete section, no point")

Specifically, I was referencing her comment on Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jawahar_Shah. I don't think it'd be helpful to say anything more on this subject, since, well, both of you have been showing very thin skins of late. Adam Cuerden 22:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I just looked at that discussion, what Abridged wrote was:

"Keep and improve meets notability criteria. please note nominating editor currently subject of RFC Abridged talk 14:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)"

I feel your description of this comment is inaccurate. —Whig (talk) 22:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC) moved here by Abridged 00:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Abridged, but over the last few days, you and Whig have been seemingly making huge efforts to feel offended at things. While I'm sorry that you are offended, it's getting to the point where criticism of you and other homeopaths is being met with screams of "Personal Attack!" whatevert the merits - most mnotably where you ignored the attacks on me in the passage that got Peter morrell banned, instead criticising me for saying I thought Peter's bizarre claims were a bit paranoid. If you must do an RfC to get it out of your system, go ahead, but I really don't see how this is at all helpful. Adam Cuerden 01:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, whatever he said to you, you DID attack him by calling him "paranoid", and I did apologize TO YOU for misstating what Peter had said. The thing is you have attacked me and you should aplologize rather than defending your remarks repeatedly. I am pretty irritated. Abridged 01:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Very well. I'm sorry for offending you, however, I do feel that the article in question, as the only example and not, evidently, having seen much play beyond its frist appearance, is not worthy of inclusion, and think that you should reconsider what "notability" means in this case, and whether notability, even if there, forces the inclusion. Adam Cuerden 01:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

What I want you to apologize for is calling me an "uncritical homeopathy promoter". I've done nothing of the sort. Abridged 01:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes when you don't want to be called a WP:SPADE you have to actually stop acting like a WP:SPADE. It's not difficult you do realise? Shot info (talk) 05:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

I think a careful read of Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution would be helpful for the current situation. While there are many ways to approach such disputes, I'd have used WP:WQA because of the incivility issues, though WP:EAR would have crossed my mind. I've never found WP:RfC/U to be useful at all, as it's extremely bureaucratic. WP:ANI is a much better option, though only if WP:WQA or WP:EAR wasn't usful. More than likely, you'll find editors in suggesting WP:ANI along the way.

I hope you find this at least somewhat helpful. --Ronz (talk) 18:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:RFC is part of WP:DR. —Whig (talk) 21:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

And RfCs tend to be a last option, rather than an initial one. While Abridged may not have the experience with Misplaced Pages to know this, I certainly would expect Whig to know and advise Abridged accordingly. --Ronz (talk) 21:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe RfC is appropriate in this case. —Whig (talk) 21:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I looked at the Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution before I did this and it said the main avenue was RFC so I did that. This was only after I wrote to Adam twice and he applied uncivilly with a non-apology apology and then just took my comments completely off his user page. Abridged 22:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Then in my opinion you have a great deal to learn about dispute resolution. As you see from the RfC, the overwhelming opinion is that this was an improper action, perhaps even grossly improper. --Ronz (talk) 22:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Ronz, I don't think it's improper to request comment from uninvolved editors on the behavior at issue. —Whig (talk) 22:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

RfC threaded discussion

Would you be willing to move your response in the AC2 RfC to the discussion page (along with my reply)? I didn't want to move your response for you without permission, but I hope to prevent this RfC from becoming disorganized and hard to follow. —Whig (talk) 21:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Please feel free to move stuff around. The admin on that page is saying that we didn't meet the two person minimum for certification anyway and he's going to delete the page in 48 hours so it is probably a moot point. Abridged 21:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll be happy to correct any defects that I made as soon as I understand what needs to be done. —Whig (talk) 21:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I moved it. Fill just wrote that action should be brought against me for starting the RFC. This is bizarre. Abridged 21:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry about the return fire, for now. Just respond if appropriate in the discussion area. —Whig (talk) 21:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)