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• WT:NOR

Needed clause: Lincoln's left foot

There have been rumblings in the rhetoric of pseudoscience POV-pushers at Misplaced Pages to use this guideline (especially WP:SYNTH) coupled with WP:RS, WP:V and WP:CITE to prevent simple logical statements and summaries from being included at Misplaced Pages. There is a real danger that this argument will gain traction here and that would be a disaster for the project. Let me illustrate the issue with a story:

In early attempts to build computers that would pass the Turing test, one of the problems was encountered was that computers did not have "base knowledge" on which to make simple analytical or synthetic arguments that were not only uncontroversial, they were almost silly. For example, one of the computers that failed the Turing test did so because the computer didn't realize that every time Abraham Lincoln was in Washington DC, his left foot was also in Washington DC. This is a simple synthetic argument that is made by human beings all the time: uncontroversial and unlikely to raise any eyebrows. However, in order for the computer to understand this, it had to be entered as a fact either synthetically (all human beings carry their left feet with them to new geographical locations because of the body being a physically connected entity) or plainly (Abraham Lincoln's left foot was in Washington DC when Abraham Lincoln was in Washington DC).

Here's the problem, we are a community of human beings: a computer is not writing this encyclopedia. However, an overly rigid interpretation of this guideline can effectively prevent us from applying simple human judgment to situations. Our synthesis guidelines here are good for complicated discussions, but they fail us in the simple every day summary reporting of facts. We don't often notice this, but I have become very aware of it when writing non-controversial articles. For example, I'm currently involved in a collaboration to bring force to a featured article status. There are dozens of instances in that article where small little syntheses have occurred for editorial reasons, readability reasons, or editorial reasons. The only reason no one complains is because the article is (relatively) non-controversial. This is a very different story when I start to edit articles about similarly non-controversial subjects (at least within the scientific community) that are related to science where there are those who dispute the scientific consensus. There, I invariably run into people yelling that I'm promoting an original research argument when I make a simple summary statement of standard scientific knowledge. And they have a point. The guideline, as written, makes no exception for simple "Lincoln's left foot" type syntheses. It's as if the guideline is intentionally incorporating one of the failures of computers into our encyclopedia and thereby has been made to hamper the good faith efforts of its very human editors. Go ahead and try to find a citation that's not a synthesis for the fact "Abraham Lincoln's left foot was in Washington when he was in Washington". It's impossible.

The problem is, when people become OR-synth fanatics in this way, they start to violate the spirit of Misplaced Pages:Summary style, WP:WEASEL and WP:NOT#CENSORED. Facts are excised from the encyclopedia on the flimsiest of rationales. E.g., this is an argument frequently made, a particular source, though it lambastes the idea for having all the features of pseudoscience, never uses the precise phrase "this idea is considered pseudoscience". Therefore, the person trying to protect the reputation of the idea rightly states that Misplaced Pages cannot use that source as a citation for the summary statement "this idea is pseudoscience" since that would be original research. Never mind the fact that indirect attribution, quotations, and simple "Lincoln's left foot" statement are the backbone of this encyclopedia. If they weren't we'd have an encyclopedia exclusively of direct quotes.

It would be very pointy of me to go smack {{fact}} tags all over the encyclopedia where these "Lincoln's left foot"-type synthetic points get made, but suffice to say they are made all the time. I think we need to address this in this policy. I'm amazed that we have to, but there seems to be no lengths that POV-pushers won't go to prevent us from writing a concise, coherent, and straightforward encyclopedia article about their pet idea.

ScienceApologist (talk) 16:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The Lincoln and his left foot analogy is elegant, but it depends entirely on the disputes involved whether this beautiful analogy applies. I will say that in my editing practice I almost never see the synth policy invoked inappropriately in a content dispute. And I encounter violations of synth over and over and over again, so if anything I say editors are inappropriately ignoring it far more than they're applying it overly strictly. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The point is, whether synth is being applied inappropriately or not is ultimately an editorial decision, not a decision that can be made on the basis of policy or guidelines alone. We need to have a clause in here that explicitly says that just to keep things sane. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Dunno where you're finding this, but tedious as it can be, it's usually best to find good sources and state what they say. This has been well tested and taken to extremes at intelligent design, which is not science, pseudoscience or junk science. It also helps that reliable secondary sources are required, which means that the primary pseudoscience sources have to be put in the context of reliable third party evaluation. Agree, it can be frustrating when it's hard to find a secondary source stating the obvious, but the end result is better for the effort. .. dave souza, talk 17:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Is this request related to content disputes such as currently raging in What the Bleep Do We Know!?? Too often in WP editors insist on substituting their own terminology, framing the issue differently than did the associated references. Very often, especially in articles which tend to overly inspire idealogues to lose sight this is an encyclopedia, not a battle against the forces of darkness, editors who choose their terms with the very intention to bring in a very peculiar emphasis, usually in the interest of disparaging or promoting the subject in a way not taken in the source itself. In other words, bad editing prodescribed in many policies. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:43, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

This request is related to a whole host of policy disputes (not content disputes). Not just one in particular. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

How can synth be applied "inappropriately"? Something is either synthesis or its not. If an editor is him/herself coming to a conclusion, then it is "original research." Either someone else has already concluded that A + B = Conclusion, or its a NOR violation. There is no gray area, nor need for one.

If a source says "every action has an equal and opposite reaction," it may be "obvious" for an editor to conclude that this is the reason why applying force to one end of a lever causes the other end go in the other direction. But if challenged, such an "obvious" conclusion ought to be attributable to any high school physics book.

NB: The issue is not whether core policy should have built in loopholes, but whether editors use common sense. Someone who {{fact}} templates an empirical observation might not working towards the betterment of the encyclopedia. But someone who questions whether another editor's deductions (here assertion of causality) are correct could very possibly know something that the person making the deductions doesn't.

Down to editorial decision is not whether something is synth or not; given the sources this can usually be objectively determined. Instead, down to editorial decision is whether someone who templates for the fun of it is being disruptive. This is not an issue for core policy. -- Fullstop (talk) 20:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Then find me a citation that shows that when Abraham Lincoln was in Washington DC, his left foot was in Washington DC. Once you do that, I'll drop the issue. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Please don't confuse something that is so obvious that it doesn't need to be explicitly stated, with something that is not obvious enough which is why it then has to be explicitly stated. :)

And... a statement that reads "While Abraham Lincoln was in Washington DC, his left foot was in Washington DC" is purgable per 'Misplaced Pages is WP:NOT an indiscriminate collector of information'.

Also, as long as you are not yourself stating that "Lincoln's left foot was attached to his ankle while he mused over how much four score and seven were," no one can require you to provide a citation for it.

-- Fullstop (talk) 03:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You don't clearly don't understand the issue, Fullstop. The issue is that very soon we are going to see disputes go through unnecessary machinations because of some sloppy wording in our policy. Imagine writing an article and finding an important part of the story of Lincoln is that he had a foot operation on a certain date. Another source indicates that Lincoln was in Washington DC on that date. You write a sentence "Abraham Lincoln's foot was operated upon his return to Washington." Nice clean sentence. Also clearly a synthesis. Obviously, it isn't right, though, that someone come by and remove it as original research. Get out of here. Licoln was in Washington, so was his left foot. Don't confuse other issues here (like your irrelevant WP:NOT reference), this is a very real concern: these uncontroversial tiny syntheses are things that happen all the time across this encyclopedia. It's part of good encyclopedia research and it's not supposed to be discouraged by policy since most editors (like yourself) consider it to be "so obvious that it doesn't need to be explicitly stated". This is just a hypothetical example that has a little bit of cutesy-ness mixed in to keep things lively. If it is true that such activity is fine, then we really should explain that in our policy. We are charged with describing what happens at Misplaced Pages, after all. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The biggest issue I see with this is not the debate over correct logical deductions, but rather the poor understanding of the methodology by the general public and especially by certain groups. We see this all the time outside of wikipedia with regards to things like Inteligent Design, where people use scientifically-styled (but false) arguments to support their cause. As it seems that true scientific thinking is marginalised on wikipedia in many places (and much kudos to those that ensured sanity on various articles!), and that policies are often interpreted the layman's way rather than the scientist's way, such a special exception would only lead to further problems, I feel. However a similar note might be of use in a related area. I see statements based around wikilinked information flagged with {{fact}} all the time, however simply following the wikilink often provides ample references. Whilst the final inference (is that the right word?) would be up to the user, one would hope that "Lincon never lost either foot" would not get {{fact}}ed and provide the last piece of information needed to state the location of his left foot. LinaMishima (talk) 23:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Does the Abe's foot story relate to We Can Build You? . . dave souza, talk 09:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I think SA has a point that we have a group of editors highly motivated to edit this policy based on their experience with a small number of contentious articles, and the larger group of editors who work on the majority of non-contentious articles are not only underrepresented, their viewpoints are also often overlooked. For example, the relevance of the "to advance a position" qualifier on WP:SYNTH was recently overlooked. We need to be mindful of the Law of unintended consequences when policy is crafted to treat the symptoms, rather than to prevent the disease. Dhaluza (talk) 19:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There's more involved here than just synthesis. Honestly, if the location of Lincoln's left foot was a notable issue, someone would have commented on it. It's not just a matter of inserting a fact that may have been overlooked. If it's been overlooked then maybe it's not as big of an issue as you may think it is. It may be the case that you're the only one who cares where Lincoln's left foot is, and that's where the original research comes in. One might want to say "Lincoln was in D.C., and thus his left foot was" to settle an argument occuring on a talk page, but if no one has thought to comment on Lincoln's left foot it's just your idea. It's certainly not notable. And when it's used to settle an argument, that's when it becomes problematic original research; it's a non-notable fact that's inserted into an article just to advance a position or win an argument.

Plus it's lazy. I can't tell you how many times people argue on these pages about not needing a source and the source is only three results away on Google. If it's important enough to be covered in a Misplaced Pages article, Google's covered it already. Dunno if the clause is in WP:SYNTH already, but that's a clause that's needed. "Try really hard to find a source. If you can't find one, ask for help. If no one can find one, then it's probably not important to begin with." This is a notability issue, not an original research issue. --Nealparr 22:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Your argument is ultimately saying that the policy is only enforced when there is a controversy and that when there isn't a controversy the policy isn't enforced. This is diametrically opposed to WP:POLICY which, in a nutshell, says it's our job at these meta-pages to describe what actually goes on at Misplaced Pages and not to legislate best practices. WP:SYNTH is not written to describe controversies. WP:SYNTH is written to describe why normally extended synthetic arguments are excised from Misplaced Pages. In other words, since what actually goes on at Misplaced Pages is millions of instances of tiny little uncontroversial syntheses all the time, we need to be more clear as to what this part of our policy on No Original Research actually covers (as in, it doesn't cover uncontroversial synthesis of straightforward references). You are also making a notability argument that is more than a little dubious. I do not think that everything worth including at Misplaced Pages is necessarily accessible by Google. In fact, there is a lot more to write about than can be found through a simple Google search. The problem I'm describing isn't one of having "no source"; the problem is when people with concerted agendas nitpick and claim a source that doesn't have a direct quote that is identical to a passage in an article and therefore refuse to allow proper summary statements, paraphrasing, or obvious syntheses. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Here you are saying that in some instances synthesis is OK. I'm saying if something's notable enough to include in an article, no original synthesis is necessary. I am not saying synthesis is OK until it is controversial. I'm saying that synthesis causes controversy, needlessly, because if it was important enough to be in the article someone would have covered it. I know exactly what scenarios your talking about because I've been there in some of these cases. Each time I was around the editors weren't just arguing against synthesis in general, they were arguing against your synthesis. The reason they argued against your synthesis is because they felt it was a harsher or more critical tone of voice than any of the sources you said made up that synthesized summary. The argument was that what you were doing is original research; it's taking facts, changing some words around, adding tone-filled words that the original sources didn't use, and passing it off as a stronger critique than the original reliable critics provided. That's what the problem was. The solution was to scan Google to find non-originally synthesized sources similar to what you were saying. There was plenty and the problem was solved. --Nealparr 02:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi SA, first, the policies are both descriptive and prescriptive.

We would only need a source for "Abraham Lincoln's left foot was in Washington when he was in Washington" if the proposition was advancing the position of a Wikipedian not advanced by any of the sources who wrote about Lincoln's trip. Otherwise, it would be a harmless deduction based on the common knowledge that people tend to take their body parts with them when they travel. SlimVirgin 01:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the original poster and think a lot of discussion here is missing the point. Someone who opposes the inclusion of certain content may use strict interpretation of NOR as a justification for removing it. For example, the Smith-Jones dispute from the policy says:

Smith says that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another book.

Suppose this was the original quote from Smith:

It's clear that Jones took these references directly from Larry's work without any credit to Larry, profiting immorally from Larry's research.

This quote does not use the word "plagiarism", but anyone who knows the word knows that's what he's talking about here. One would not want other editors eliminating the original text or making it more verbose without need. This is not a hypothetical or even infrequent scenario.

We'd like to say "use common sense", but whether or not an editor is defending an agenda, they frequently disagree on what "common sense" is. We'd like to say "punish disruptive editors", but an editor may in good faith adopt and act on an overstrict interpretation of NOR, if it is not clarified. "Disruption" is a loaded term like "vandalism" and requires getting inside the mind of the editor, which can only be done in the clearest of cases.

The policy already indicates that summarization is okay, but this is overly vague - ideally we'd have more examples of cases where limited synthesis is justified, because we can't write effective prose without it. Dcoetzee 23:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• SA has a point about the kinds of (mis)uses that can happen, and Dhaluza nailed it in bringing up the Law of unintended consequences. I suggest that we need not write in new language to expressly address this concern, but should review existing and proposed language to be mindful of these particular unintended (but likely) consequences. SA, are there particular areas in the current language that are of concern, where you think existing language could be tightened to foreclose this kind of misunderstanding? --Lquilter (talk) 04:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The more we write in this policy, the more the law of unintended consequences kicks in. SA's concern (as I understand it) is that, for example, we would need a source saying John Rawls was one of the 20th century's most important political theorists before we could say that in the WP article about him, even though anyone who's familiar with political philosophy knows the statement to be true.

All we can do in these situations is stress that common sense applies. Any attempt to expand the wording here risks introducing even more complications. SlimVirgin 16:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• I wholly agree, but -- not to pick up worms from the already open can -- doesn't this apply to the entire PSTS section? I feel that some of our problems in the instability of this document come from a wide variety of honest misunderstandings of the PSTS material. When understood correctly, it can indeed illuminate NOR; but when misunderstood (as it evidently is easy to do), it complicates things. NOR without it is simple & elegant. --Lquilter (talk) 20:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Interpretation of images

I noticed a possible loophole/room for misinterpretation in the section on original images, in that it did not cover requirements on the interpretation of images. I suggest adding a short paragraph to emphasize two points that should be uncontroversial:

• The interpretation of images must be based on specifically related verifiable, reliable sources. (cf. WP:V)
• Images must not be used out of context or in contexts for which reliable sources do not exist. (cf. WP:NOR#Sources).

I suggest the following wording:

Editors should note that the interpretation of images, particularly depictions of allegorical or symbolic works, is subject to this policy. Descriptions in articles and captions of the meaning and context of an image must draw on reliable sources specifically relating to that image. Images must not be used out of context or in contexts that are not supported by reliable sources.

This is a straightforward reiteration of long-standing existing policy - there's nothing new about either of these principles. It is, however, useful to make it clear in this section that the text that accompanies images is subject to the same requirements as any other text anywhere else in an article.

I've had some personal experience of this issue. Some years ago, I rewrote the article on the Vinča signs to which an editor had added a series of images to support a fringe theory from an unreliable source that the signs were an early version of the Etruscan alphabet (see ). The article has been much improved since then, but the issue of the misuse of the images is something that's stuck in my mind for a long time. It's worth emphasizing to editors that our content policies apply to all material, not just text. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Why the rush to push this through undiscussed, Chris? SlimVirgin 18:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If you have a substantive objection to the proposal, could we please hear it? As I've said above, there's nothing novel here. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by "images must not be used in contexts that are not supported ..."? What is the difference between that and "out of context," and what do you mean by "out of context"? SlimVirgin 19:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll give you a hypothetical example by way of illustration. This image depicts the US Capitol Building. If it was added to Fascist architecture, it would be displayed out of context, as there's no conceivable reliable source that would describe it in that way. On the other hand, if it was added to List of buildings where people have been assassinated that might be an appropriate context, as it's conceivable that someone was indeed assassinated there (I have no idea if that's the case or not). However, if there's no reliable source to establish that context the image shouldn't be used. It's the difference between a patently inappropriate context and a context that might be appropriate but is lacking sourcing. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

That kind of thing is already covered by this or V. SlimVirgin 19:27, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If you want to use that example again, use this image, depicting San Francisco City Hall. Mayor Moscone and Harvey Milk were assassinated there. --Hugh7 (talk) 01:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I tend to think that this is covered already by the inclusion of "photographs" in the PSTS section. That section explains how primary sources, like photographs, should only be described, rather than interpreted. The section on original images, on the other hand, is about diagrams that users create for the express purpose of putting on WP. It isn't meant to cover existing photographs. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The section on original images does actually specifically refer to photographs, including an entire paragraph about photomanipulation - something that usually affects photos of people or events. So it's plainly about more than just users' diagrams. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It's about original images, rather than text. What you're talking about seems to be the interpretation of primary-source material, which is already covered. But in addition you want to add material that's very unclear -- out of context, and contexts not supported by sources. You'll have to say what you mean so we can judge the implications. SlimVirgin 19:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I just explained it above. What do you consider unclear about it? Perhaps you can suggest an alternative form of words? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it would end up being used as a stick to beat people with. (I'm not suggesting you intend this, of course, but I think it would be a byproduct.) For a start, no sources are going to be available to supply a context for many of the images taken by editors themselves, which won't have been published anywhere. We want to encourage original work with images, not discourage it. SlimVirgin 21:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

ChrisO, you're right it does mention photos. For example, if I write an article about a hiking trail, I am permitted to take a photo of the trail to use in the article, and the OR policy is not meant to prohibit that. But if I manipulate my image (say,to remove some trees to make the view look better), that would be discouraged. I am not claiming that this section is worded perfectly already - it seems that rewording it may help. But I also don't think your concerns, about interpreting images, belong in this particular section of the policy, about creating images specifically for WP. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

And if you did add a photograph of a hiking trail, according to the proposed addition, you might need to find a source that supported its use in that context.

The issue of original work and image use on Misplaced Pages is very complicated -- too complex for this page, I think. SlimVirgin 19:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh no. My entire understanding of the purpose of this section was to point out our practice that I do not generally need another source to add a picture I take of a hiking trail to the article about the hiking trail. There is still the issue of consensus, but not of verifiability. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:37, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

As it's written now, yes. SlimVirgin 19:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not the intention of my proposal (perhaps it needs modifying to clarify this?). The aim is to ensure that where the meanings of images are not immediately obvious, or are capable of being disputed, descriptions and interpretations should be based on reliable sources. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say, if, for an article on William Shatner, I take a picture of William Shatner, I can say "This is a picture of William Shatner"Wjhonson (talk) 19:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

To clarify: one would not need a third source to verify that the person on the photo is indeed William Shatner. If it's William Shatner dressed as a bear, we might need verification, however. I can see cases where there will be disagreements. If I submit a picture of a person who has a passing resemblance with Shatner apparently passed out in a ditch, we'd probably need verification. But I suggest we take this on a case by case basis, rather than try to see how many distinctions between "interpretation" and "description" we can fit on the head of a needle. --Leifern (talk) 20:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course, there's no need to cite a third source where the subject of an image is obvious - be it William Shatner or a hiking trail. But it's often the case that the subject of an image isn't obvious, particularly where it concerns an allegory or symbolism of some sort (which is why I mentioned those aspects specifically in the proposal). I'll give you two examples. Consider the painting of the Raft of the Medusa. It's a very well-known image, but it's not immediately obvious from the picture that it's a political allegory - the captain of the wrecked ship was a supporter of Napoleon Bonaparte, and it was painted the year after Waterloo. The image's context gives it a specific meaning, but documenting the context and meaning requires reliable sources that specifically relate to the picture. Reliable sourcing is particularly important where multiple interpretations have been advanced or there's some controversy over the meaning, as in the case of The Last Supper (Leonardo) (anyone who's read The Da Vinci Code will be aware that there are some crackpot theories about the painting!). -- ChrisO (talk) 20:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know... I mean I do agree in principle with you Chris. I'm just not yet convinced there is a pressing need to state this. I am open to being more convinced. It would probably take an actual ongoing dispute to illustrate the problem in dramatic relief. We do still have problems with people not understanding a lot of things, but so far I haven't encountered picture captions as being a subject of revert-warring. Wjhonson (talk) 21:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Raft of the Medusa is not an original work created for WP. Maybe that section needs to explain that it doesn't refer to digitalization of other works, but to works created specifically for use on WP, such as photographs taken by WP editors and diagrams created to illustrate articles. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean to nitpick, Chris, but both the examples you mention are not original work, as CBM points out, and I think the caveat you want to include is pretty well covered in the clause that original work does "generally ... not propose unpublished ideas or arguments." So to the extent that the caption does assert something that is truly original ("an alien that has disguised itself to look just William Shatner," or "The US Capitol building, built at night by leprechauns enslaved by Mrs. Coulter," we have an issue. There's actually a recent example where I uploaded a photograph that I thought I took of Qiryat Shmona in Israel, which turned out to be somewhere else. An editor pointed out my mistake, and I'll correct it, but the presumption was that I wasn't lying about the caption. We generally assume that image descriptions include the plain meaning of the image. --Leifern (talk) 21:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson, I'll ask a few editors I know who're active in contentious areas of Misplaced Pages to see if they can furnish any examples of active ongoing disputes. CBM, I think the scope needs to go wider than that; most of the images on WP aren't in fact taken by WP editors. I was thinking more of images from external websites and sources such as Flickr. Leifern, if you don't mind me saying so, I think that's a bit of a fanciful example. :-) I had in mind something more mundane - such as a scenario where the meaning of an image is disputed by editors because it isn't reliably documented. That was essentially the problem in the article I first mentioned above, Vinča signs, until I and other editors were able to find reliable sources on the images on question. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

But when you write "meaning of an image" and "image...isn't reliably documented," the distinction gets lost again. The fanciful example involving leprechauns and Mrs. Coulter was an overstatement to make a point. Virtually all images, and certainly all original images, may have incorrect labeling for one reason or another. But when I uploaded a picture of the Madison, NJ city hall, nobody challenged my assurance that it was what I claimed it to be. That's one extreme case on one hand; on the other is the US Capitol Building/leprechauns/Mrs. Coulter example. I think the distinction is nicely captured in the clause that the caption or description should not contain unpublished ideas or arguments. What "meaning" is in this context is a philosophical discussion we should refrain from. --Leifern (talk) 01:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) Thanks Chris, I think it would be helpful to have concrete examples. Btw, are you certain we can even *use* images from Flickr? I was under the perhaps false impression that all images here, not taken/created by ourselves, had to be so old they were out-of-copyright. That otherwise we could not guarentee they were copy-free. Wjhonson (talk) 22:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we can use Flickr images, provided that the copyright is compatible with Misplaced Pages's GFDL license - this basically means they have to be licensed under the Creative Commons. There's even a bot called FlickrLickr running on the Wikimedia Commons that identifies and automatically uploads compatible images. According to the FlickLickr page, there are about 2 million such images on Flickr. You can search through them yourself from this link - simply enter your search query and check "Only search within Creative Commons-licensed photos" and the two options below to find compatible images. I've found it to be a very useful resource for illustrating articles. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't follow any objection to Chris's proposal other than the same anti-elitist sentiment which desires for WP:OR, WP:FRINGE, and WP:RS to either be deleted or be as unclear, undetailed, and utterly confusing as possible. Several points:

• Response to SlimVirgin: "Why the rush to push this through undiscussed, Chris?" See WP:BOLD and WP:Assume Good Faith.
• Even if Chris's specific examples are incorrect, that's irrelevant. Images are forms of information, no different than text, and can still be used for original research and it should be clarified that it isn't allowed, to discourage people from saying, "WP:OR doesn't apply to images" in discussions.
• Response to Wjhonson: Misplaced Pages policy is developed in order to help Misplaced Pages run more effectively, not to protect it from total apocalyptic collapse from massive edit-warring or a mass exodus of good editors. If a proposal to clarify policy makes sense, why object to it? You acknowledge it makes sense, so why the obstruction? The precautionary principle? Or are you a fan of Edmund Burke, perhaps? It doesn't matter whether there are hordes of people already misunderstanding policy in that way, nor is there an inherent necessity to find concrete examples, because even addressing the potential existence of 3% of users who might use images for WP:OR (though we just might not have found them yet, considering Misplaced Pages's size) would help build consensus and make Misplaced Pages closer to being worthy of being called an "encyclopedia." If you acknowledge that's what following this policy would seem to do, it's not clear why it should be opposed. To summarize your argument, "This is a good idea, but until I see examples of where Misplaced Pages has failed in this way, I'm going to vote no." Imagine if you had made this same argument regarding vandalism of certain pages before Misplaced Pages developed a protection policy. Should we wait until we have large flame-wars and users getting blocked over unclear policy before clarifying it? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I simply don't care for hypotheticals whose end-result creates a change in our policy wording. I find that, in general, people use hypothetical cases to effectually argue for a pet project, and then turn and use the letter-of-the-policy to push for something which violates the spirit-of-the-policy. Which then leads to another battle and more instruction-creep to account for the new discrepancy. In general, I'm not opposed to instruction-creep to alleviate real issues, but I'm not a fan of it in the case of a presented hypothetical case. You're wrong Zen that I'm voting no. You, as a person named Zen, should be the ultimate arbiter that it's possible to vote "no answer yet, please come back tomorrow"Wjhonson (talk) 22:44, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm certainly sympathetic to your concerns, Wj. As I said, I'll try to document at least one real-world examples of such a case so that we can discuss the proposal in that light. I would say, though, that one of the key functions of Misplaced Pages policy is not simply to fix problems when they arise but to prevent problems from arising in the first place. That's the reason why, for instance, I devised Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict, to provide a template for how to deal with disputed names and head off future disputes. But I'd also reiterate that my proposal isn't actually a new policy at all - it's merely a brief restatement of an existing requirement, clarifying a point of WP:NOR that I felt was ambiguous. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well one obvious case springs to mind. The Zombietime image you would like removed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Zombietime/Archive_1#Request_for_comment_-_No_Original_Research

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion/2007_December_16#Image:AntiWarRallyFeb162003.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:CJCurrie#Disputed_images_and_Wikipedia:No_original_research

I think it's a very bad idea to attempt to alter policy as a means of winning a content dispute or WP:CANVASSing support for the change. Why don't you let the mediation on the subject go ahead, rather than trying to pre-empt the decision with this policy change? Perhaps you should add yourself to the list of involved parties. <<-armon->> (talk) 01:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I see that I've arrived a bit late to this discussion, but it may still be worth noting that the Zombietime image in question has been the subject of extensive discussions in recent weeks. Several editors have raised objections to the current placement of the image, with some of the discussion revolving around the issue of Original Research. Readers are encouraged to review the relevant discussion at Talk:New antisemitism for additional context. 06:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

??? What are you on about, Armon? I'd completely forgotten the first discussion you cited, but I never sought to remove the image - I simply questioned its sourcing. I've had no participation in the second discussion other than seeking to clarify its copyright status (which SlimVirgin kindly did by e-mail) and the third URL you cited is simply the request I posted to a number of editors of my acquaintance who've had involvement with controversial articles. I'd appreciate it if you withdrew your remarks above, since they're untrue and uncivil, and a gross violation of WP:CIV and WP:AGF. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

And what mediation? I'm not involved in any that I know of (unless someone has added my name to one without telling me). I came here from Talk:An Inconvenient Truth#Error lists, where I've been involved in a discussion with an editor for the last two days about why we can't cite his personal website. For obvious reasons, I've been reviewing WP:NOR in connection with that. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Eh, I generally avoid policy debates and I'm not clear what underlying content issue is being discussed here. However, I received a note from ChrisO asking if I had any examples of images being used to push original research. As it happens, I do. Months back, an editor insisted on adding an image to Terri Schiavo, as a counterpoint to her CT scan. The image was a CT scan of a man with Dandy Walker syndrome, a congenital brain anomaly. This man's scan had some features in common with Terri Schiavo's, and he was living a relatively normal life as a civil servant in France with a near-normal IQ (no jokes please; they've all been made). The implication, by placing the scans side-by-side, was that Terri Schiavo's scan did not preclude near-normal brain function. This ignores medical reality - Dandy Walker is a congenital anatomical defect, while Terri Schiavo was neurologically normal until a devastating neurologic event; in addition to the disparate clinical scenarios, the CT scans are only superficially similar; the man with Dandy Walker was not typical even of that syndrome, but so remarkable as to be written up in the Lancet and the popular press; and needless to say, no reputable medical or lay source (actually, no source at all) attempted to juxtapose the two situations or images. Discussion is archived here. Needless to say, I think this violated WP:NOR. Does that mean we need to amend policy? I dunno. Outside opinion ended up shooting down this particular editor, who was problematic enough that he's currently under ArbCom sanction, with the existing NOR policy. And this is actually the only case I can think of offhand, so this may not be a particularly widespread problem. I'm just offering it in response to the request for case studies in original-synthesis-via-image. MastCell 04:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the example, but in your particular case I don't even think you need to invoke OR, you can just use undue weight. A scan of someone else's brain has almost no relevance to an article about Schiavo. I appreciate the long description though, very interesting. Wjhonson (talk) 05:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a very interesting example - thanks for the input. In the case you cite, an image was being used out of context - i.e. one medical complaint being used to illustrate another one, without any reliable sources to make a valid connection or comparison between the two. It's the kind of scenario I had in mind for the line in the proposal that reads "Images must not be used out of context or in contexts that are not supported by reliable sources." I'm not quite sure it's covered by WP:UNDUE, but it's certainly an example of implicit OR. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I see two problems with your rational for this change. 1) Current policy would seem more than adequate to address the problem that this change is designed to address. If current policy is not sufficient, then you have failed to articulate in any clear manner why it is not sufficient. 2) Far more problematic is your claim that this change is not an organic evolution, but the result of a hypothetical situation. Policy should be based upon actual experience and should address those situations that have occurred on at least a semi-regular basis. If this change addressed a real need or closed an actual loophole, it should be easy to show multiple clear examples to substantiate the need for a change. Baring that, we do not amend core policy to better address hypothetical situations -we do not supply solutions that are in search of a problem. We fix those things that are broken; doing otherwise creates more problems. Brimba (talk) 18:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Are there any examples of discussions where the existing policy has proved to be insufficiently clear? If not, let's keep it as it is. Andrewa (talk) 21:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson: Your claim seems to assume bad faith.

As for the repeated invocation of wikidarwnism by multiple users above: I'm not a piece of DNA, I'm not a mindless chunk of living tissue to be pushed around or mutated by violent aggregate forces (flamewars, edit-wars, etc..) -- I'm an individual human being who deserves respect, courtesy, to be listened to carefully, and the benefit of the doubt and because of the inherent irrationality in human behavior, none of that is going to be provided through irrational, pseudoscientific social darwinist theories applied to Misplaced Pages policy. Herbert Spencer, if he were alive today, would not be able to edit Misplaced Pages because he was a dick. Let's not revive his ideas here, please.

If a policy proposal makes sense, it's totally illogical for you to say, "But I want evidence that we need it," before supporting it. As noted above, it was this obfuscation that prevented there from being a protection policy for such a long time and it's basically a form of Conservatism. Because humans are so irrational, the more explicit we make policy, the better. That's partially the reason why policy pages exist to begin with, not simply "empirical observations," because human behavior is so complex and there is so much stuff on Misplaced Pages that there can be a multitude of totally different problems which all arise from one single inappropriate comma on a policy page.

When one attempts to remove this comma, they are reverted and asked, "Why did you remove this comma? Can you PROVE that removing this comma actually benefits anyone?"

It would be like the same fallacious argument that we should wait for people to die before we do anything about global warming. I mean can anyone show me anyone who has been hurt by global warming, such that we need the Kyoto protocol? No. Because the problems of global warming are based largely on inference, which are just as valid as direct observation. We don't need to wait until we have thousands of people spamming Misplaced Pages with tubgirl before making "Don't spam Misplaced Pages with tubgirl" a policy. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 07:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I'm not that person. I am assuming the change is requested in good faith, but I simply disagree with requesting changes based on hypothetical situations. I'm not in control of this board, I'm just voicing my own personal opinion. I need clarification with actual examples. Btw I don't revert people who make grammar corrections. Wjhonson (talk) 09:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Primary Sources

I was thinking of a great way to make something clear about primary source usage: "It is okay for Misplaced Pages to use primary sources; it is not okay for Misplaced Pages to be a primary source." And so I'll just leave that up to the community to debate over, whether it can be added and where. I just don't want to go to bed forgetting that. KV(Talk) 03:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this has already been asked and answered in-policy. Are you sure you read through verifiability as well? Wjhonson (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Scientific Studies As Reliable Secondary Sources

I have run into the problem of an editor who argues that peer reviewed studies in the medical literature can or even should be excluded from Misplaced Pages because these are "primary sources" and Misplaced Pages should instead be referenced to a "secondary sources"-- like magazine articles which discuss the studies.

Given that many articles in the mainstream media may misunderstand or misrepresent the full findings of studies, this seems like a very dubious editing policy and even introduces the risk of politically motivated concealment of studies "disfavored" by an editor who instead wants to push the POV of an argument in the mainstream medial.

I agree with the argument of many editors that articles in the popular press should not be relied upon as sources of fact in preference to the peer reviewed studies themselves.

I think part of this confusion arises from a mistaken reading of the NOR section on primary, secondary and tertiary sources. This editor is mistakingly classifying every peer reviewed study as a "primary source" and therefore interpreting that magazine articles should define what is acceptable to include in the Misplaced Pages article.

I would argue that most peer reviewed studies should be classified as "reliable secondary sources" in that they provide a synthesis and analyses of "primary source" data (including raw data and eyewitness accounts). Indeed, because peer reviewed articles in the academic press will be much more reliably vetted than a newspaper article (where a fact checker may check facts, but not interpretations), and the methods and analyses will have been reviewed and determined to be reliable by their academic peers, I believe they should ALWAYS be accepted as reliable sources by Misplaced Pages editors. To this end, I think editors should be firmly warned away from deleting material accurately and properly cited to peer reviewed studies.

This seems to be self-evident, but the problem is that some editors are deleting peer reviewed articles just because the facts and material cited in them contradict popular generalizations made in the New York Times. Seriously.

For this reason, I'm suggesting 1.3 Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources should be amended to read (bold only to show recommended text):

Secondary sources are accounts at least one step removed from an event. Secondary sources, may draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims. Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors. The best secondary sources are sources in the academic press where the source of data, methods, and analyses have been subjected to peer review. In general, peer-reviewed sources should always be treated as reliable secondary sources, unless subsequently retracted due to fraud. In regard to scientific or technical matters, peer reviewed sources are preferable to magazine or newspaper articles which are generally tertiary sources in regard to reporting on scientific issues.

Example: Published data on seasonal temperatures is a primary source. A peer reviewed analysis of patterns based on this data is a reliable secondary source. A news article about studies relating to seasonal temperatures is a tertiary source.

In this example, the primary source might be used only with caution by Misplaced Pages editors, for example to create a graph. But any stastical analysis, even an average or a curve fit would be unallowable as original research. In this example, the peer reviewed study is definitely a reliable secondary source. The tertiary source may be useful for referencing a variety of studies or political conflict surrounding the studies, but should not displace reference to the study itself.

I welcome comments and suggestions.--Strider12 (talk) 21:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Not being familiar with the situations you've encountered lately, I think it's doubtful conflicts can in every case be helped by making this too much more specific because it depends on the context and claims attributed to these various sources-even and sometimes in particular with peer reviewed scientific studies which oftentimes fall far short of a "consensus" agreement of some phenomenon. The significance given to particular studies cannot be determined from the study itself. In published medical research there will be countless small scale studies that are interpreted as "suggestive" or preliminary only, so the published literature there is very often conflicting. Since primary sources aren't unallowed by this policy, there aren't that many situations where the real problem is that the source is a primary source. The problem is usually one about what kinds of claims can be attributed to the source. Medical and science journals do not just publish research, they also publish authoritative opinion against the perspective of a full body of related research. The opinions there should be given more weight than opinions in the NYT. However, it is arguable whether wikipedia editors can give an interpretation which runs counter to that of mainstream references such as the NYT based solely on the editors' own particular comprehension of a scientific study. Do you have particular examples? Professor marginalia (talk) 22:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Any study, peer reviewed or otherwise, is a primary source for its own findings. Having received peer review is no guarantee that the findings are correct or the conclusion a proper representation of scientific opinion. While journals endeavor to weed out any studies that used poor procedure and the like, they'll happily publish studies that disagree with one another, and even some whose findings contradict scientific consensus; just look at water memory. And so while studies usually contain introductory material that can serve as a secondary review of other studies, it should not be used as a source for the legitimacy of its findings. Press articles on studies are good ways to establish the notability of a study or at least the point of view presented by the study's conclusion, but again, not for the legitimacy of those conclusions or findings. Things that establish legitimacy are repeat/followup studies from other researchers, as well as review articles. But keep in mind that even if such a source exists, any "novel conclusions" (of the review, not the original study) could be considered unreliable should they be in disagreement with conclusions that have been repeated and published in review articles. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

My argument is that a peer reviewed study is not necessarily true, nor does it necessarily represent a consensus view. Indeed, facts almost never rely on consensus; they are simply facts. But a peer reviewed study has the benefit of being accepted by peers as a reliable source laying out at least some properly gathered facts combined with some or much analysis which is reasonably related to and interpretive of the facts presented.

Also, I don't believe the statement that a peer reviewed paper is a "primary source of its own finding" has any meaning. Even a tertiary source is the "primary source of it's own findings." Primary sources are defined as raw data, original historical documents, eyewitness accounts, etc. As soon as one begins to analyze these primary sources (which is what most peer reviewed studies do) that analysis is a secondary source (just as a reporter compiling interviews into an article is creating a secondary source). If the process is reliable, the source is reliable. Peer reviewing helps to verify the reliability of the process...not necessarily the truth of every fact reported or of the analysis, but the process is of higher quality and if an editor believes it is worthy of inclusion in an article, it should almost always be incorporated into the article.

I am definitely NOT arguing that one, or even a group, of peer reviewed articles should be used to justify exclusion of other peer reviewed articles. I am arguing that (a) magazine and newspaper articles should not be used to justify exclusion of peer reviewed articles, and generally, (b) the more reliable sources, the better. These sources present both facts and opinions and it is fairly easy to tell the difference. A firm policy against censoring facts and citations of peer reviewed articles might help prevent POV-pushing editors from censoring inconvenient facts which undermine their favorite POV. Indeed, it would push editors on the other side to do their research and find other peer reviewed sources (not just a newspaper editorial!) which present additional or conflicting facts. I think Misplaced Pages would benefit from inclusion of more citations from the academic press whenever such sources are available. Editors who cut academic sources in preference for popular media sources are undermining the quality of the encyclopedia.--Strider12 (talk) 04:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"Primary source of its own findings" is a perfectly meaningful statement, although I admit that I essentially ignore the definition provided on this policy page. Whenever you produce an original thought, you're acting as a primary source for that thought (I'll explain this further below). For another to analyze and confirm you are correct is quite secondary, as you have certainly already claimed as much. In any event, we don't need to modify any policies to encourage the use of peer-reviewed articles over magazine artilces on scientific topics. If you're having this sort of problem, seek dispute resolution instead of literally warping policies to benefit your argument. I speak in terms of primary sources as original thought, original ideas, original claims, since the primary/secondary/tertiary simply doesn't capture the essence of a reliable source. Whenever an original claim is published, we simply have very little to go on that it's accurate, and so it should not be claimed as such (to claim that a claim was made is another matter, one for case-by-case discussion). While obviously the peer-review process is generally essential in ensuring reliability, it doesn't take a professional peer-reviewer to realize that journal articles constantly disagree with eachother. Further, the peer-reviewers, being quite involved in the publishing of the very original material they're reviewing, do not impart some mystical increase in the order of the source; they're merely placing a very trustworthy stamp of "this is good science." As the major policies and guidelines are quite intimately overlapping, you can shoot these (original papers that contradict others) down in a number of ways. If an original claim is presented by only one paper (peer-reviewed or otherwise), I say it's not a reliable source. It's also not a notable opinion. Being claimed by no one third-party to the original claim, it is unverifiable as a fact. And finally, it is an unweightable point of view. Oh, and on occasion even a peer-reviewed article is utterly awful and should be dismissed in the absence of reliable sources with similar claims. We don't need a policy to prohibit good editorial discretion, and as I mentioned, there are established venues for resolving disagreements over such discretion. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The PSTS section is very carefully worded so that most peer reviewed papers are not classified as primary sources. This would be very unimportant apart from the use of the term "primary source" to taint things. Only "written or recorded notes of laboratory and field research, experiments or observations" and "published experimental results by the person(s) actually involved in the research" are considered primary sources. The bulk of peer reviewed research, including all interpretation and analysis, is considered a secondary source for the purposes of the NOR. This may or may not disagree with your favored definition of "secondary source", but it's what we've arrived at here. — Carl (CBM · talk) 04:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Don;t canonize review articles either. Their reliability and quality control varies widely. It is quite common for a senior scientist to write a review article and get it published somewhere that exemplifies his view of the subject. (In fact, this even happens with textbooks and other tertiary sources. Even good conventional encyclopedias.). On the other hand, an article in a good journal describing something is presumed to be reliable--unless there is evidence otherwise. There is a certain skepticism until it is confirmed, if it its at all controversial, but the normal situation is that things are reported honestly and accurately. The ultimate interpretation is the responsibility of the author, though one of the things that is checked by peer review is whether the statistical interpretation is correct, and more generally that the conclusions are supported by the data.

Reliability is not R/NR but relative. DGG (talk) 05:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with CBM and DGG. Moreover, if two peer reviewed studies have conflicting findings (more often, conflicting interpretations rather than conflicting facts) it is simply important to provide room for both in the article so that readers can see the conflict.

CBM, I agree that as written PSTS does embrace peer reviewed sources as secondary, but this is not bluntly stated enough for some editors (at least the one I'm thinking of) who misread or misapply this to advocate a policy preferance for the popular media to academic media.

Would you support or recommend any language, like that in your paragraph above, to be added to the policy. For example, "The bulk of peer reviewed research, including all interpretation and analysis, is considered a secondary source for the purposes of the NOR."--Strider12 (talk) 20:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The current language represents a sort of compromise. Personally I wouldn't mind that sentence, but it's worth looking higher on this page at the disagreements over the source-typing section to get an idea of the disagreements. The most difficult issue is that there are mutually inconsistent definitions used in different fields. But I would be glad to discuss the concerns that this other editor has with him or her; feel free to contact me. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I would not support such language change. I do not think that conflicts are resolved by setting firm rules about what sources are primary, etc. As another editor already commented, it depends on the context-any single document can be a primary, secondary, or whatever depending on the context and the claim attributed to it. The more technical the policy tries to become, the less focused editors stay on the point to the policy. This policy isn't a policy about what sources can or can't be used. It's a policy about what kinds of claims can be made here from the source. I've found most of such disputes about whether something is a primary etc are not really about the source itself, but their use. Let's take the situation of a science study. How can it be that the science journalists for the NYT are unreliable in their interpretation of studies, whereas anonymous wikipedians are much more able to report about them here accurately? Not a very sensible policy direction to go in, I don't think. Behind 99.99% of conflicts between what exactly is a primary compared to a secondary source is either a) an editor offering original research, or b) a NPOV dispute with wikilawyering on top. Professor marginalia (talk) 21:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose any alteration in policy made at the behest of a single-purpose tendentious agenda account and designed to benefit her in a specific content dispute. Strider12's specific proposals for the article in question were roundly rejected by a consensus of both involved editors and those solicited by WP:RfC; suffice to say that they go well beyond the simple issue of "bad editors are deleting peer-reviewed material because it doesn't agree with the New York Times". Forum-shopping a specific content dispute here after failing to make any headway via the usual process should be discouraged, as this is (as another editor wrote above) an attempt to warp policy to benefit a specific argument. MastCell 23:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Tie-in books

Shouldn't e.g. works that build on a particular fiction franchise be regarded as primary sources unless they provide substantial discussion above the level of narration? User:Dorftrottel 13:07, January 30, 2008

YouTube

Are YouTube videos a reliable source? Jim Bough (talk) 19:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It depends on what is being linked two, but there are two issues here. The more simple one is that youtube links as sources often violate the external links guideline, specifically the avoidance of linking to obvious copyright violations. So links to youtube videos of television broadcasts are usually inappropriate. That said, there is no requirement for a source to actually be online (legally), so if the youtube link was to an otherwise reliable news broadcast, and the content sourced is merely repeating/paraphrasing what is said in the broadcast, then the content is OK. To the more fundamental issue of a reliable source, videos are not really different from print sources, in this respect. A video that is created/published by a reliable publisher has much the same merit as a similarly published written article. A video published by a bored kid in his own basement is, similarly, no more reliable than a random blog. The one probable difference in the consideration of video and written sources is that the former can invite even more original research. For example, attempting to analyze the footage of a video is as much a violation of policy as analyzing the data of a research paper. Stick to repeating/paraphrasing the accompanying commentary, and all should be well. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a real problem with calling any YouTube video a reliable source... we have no way to know if something that seems to be a legitimate "copy" of a broadcast has been edited or otherwise manipulated or not. There is no editorial policy that ensures that what we see on YouTube is the same as what was originally aired. Blueboar (talk) 20:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

By that measure, any source that can only be found offline is similarly unreliable. For if I were to add content to a page and only cite such a source, you have no immediate way to know if I've honestly represented the source. I could be subtly introducing POV, completely making up content, or make up the source itself. And the only way you can confirm either way is to hunt down my source and see it for yourself. Just as with a youtube video, they only way you can be sure it isn't altered is to hunt down a copy from a reliable publisher. The only real difference is that an editor acting in good faith can be misled by the "source" itself; but then again, I can upload an altered, out of print, and offline news article to my blog and link to it. And so under policy, there is no blanket prohibition against sources whose only known online presence is youtube; you have to apply the same editorial discretion that you would otherwise. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

What you are missing here is the difference between a copy of unknown provenance and an original. if we are talking about original material created for, and published for the firt time on YouTube... it would definitely not be reliable except perhaps for an article about that particular video (see WP:SPS). If we are talking about a copy of something copied onto Youtube but originating elsewhere, we might be able to use it as a convenience link... but should not use it as a citation in it's own right.

Look at it this way... if some guy you didn't know came up to you on the street and handed you what looked like a xeroxed copy of a chapter from a book, would you consider that copy to be an acceptable source? I would hope not. You don't know if the copy is an accurate representation of the original. If someone tried to cite: <ref>xeroxed chapter from Book X, given to me some guy in the street</ref> I would hope that it would be challenged immediately, and substituted with a citation to the original book, complete with publication information.

That is essentially what you are getting when you go to YouTube. A copy of something, handed to you (posted) by an unknown person. It might be an accurate copy of the original... it might not be. We don't know. Thus, we can not rely on it... and should cite to the original instead. Now, if we have checked the YouTube copy against the original... and have found it to accutally be an accurate copy... then (and only then) we can use it as a convenience link... citing it with something like <ref>Original Video's Title, Original Publication info - convenience link can be found on YouTube (link)</ref> Blueboar (talk) 02:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You'll note I am only arguing over whether the content cited to youtube should be kept, not whether the link itself should be used as the sole source. In fact, if an item is cited solely to a youtube copy, or a copy of any book somewhere, I would sincerely hope that it's not removed on site. Failure to comply with proper citation of sources is a failure of the given reference, not the content (presuming the information did, in fact, originate from a reliable source). Short of an actual reason to suspect fraud (or something like a possible BLP violation), removing all improperly sourced content is harmful to the project. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Like Someguy1221, I would like to push a little bit on the term "youtube videos". A video which has indicia of a reliable source is reliable, period. YouTube is not a "reliable source" for publication, because it is self-published; but if the video is from some other source and a copy happens to be posted at YouTube, the video can still be reliable. As BlueBoar points out, anyone citing a video that they have only viewed on YouTube may want to be really certain that the YouTube copy is an accurate copy. The video should be properly cited, with whatever the relevant credits are -- date, "author", title, etc. Then we get to the question of access, and what are reliable sources for access -- i.e., convenience links to the cite. YouTube is not usually a reliable source for access, because the videos can easily be taken down by YouTube or the person who posted it, and removal can be triggered by automatic processes. --Lquilter (talk) 20:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• This discussion probably belongs on the Reliable Sources noticeboard instead of here. Torc2 (talk) 21:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• The question of whether a source is reliable is a different question than whether it is what it says it is. We've probably had this discussion before, somewhere. There was a similar discussion recently on the question of translations or transcriptions of offline documents - if someone has a scan, say, of a historical document up on a self-published website and you can't find it anywhere else online, is that a reliable source? Another way to think about it is to consider that sources exist in several senses - in one sense it refers to the publisher or publication, in another to the author, and in yet another to the specific document. With youtube the author may be reliable, the video may be reliable, but the publisher is iffy. I think you just have to use your judgment case by case based on all the relevant circumstances.Wikidemo (talk) 01:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue of YouTube's reliability has nothing to do with WP:NOR, nor can "no original research" ever be invoked to measure reliability. WP:RS/N (Reliable Sources Noticeboard) is the place for such issues. -- Fullstop (talk) 04:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

double standard

For the record, original research is rampant on Misplaced Pages. Map and chart creation, for example, get free passes - even though maps and charts can be highly POV. Also, photographs get special treatment here. According to this project page, photos aren't original research because photos don't "propose unpublished ideas or arguments." That's hogwash, really. Most photos are inherently POV. Photos get such special treatment here that their creators are often cited in articles and even on the Main Page (which is goes against Misplaced Pages tenets, IMHO).

We really need to work through these double standards. Kingturtle (talk) 20:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you give an example of a photo proposing an unpublished idea or argument? Thanks, --Shirahadasha (talk) 01:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I can give an example of a chart that appears to be original research; it is
in Gregorian calendar. In view of the lesser scrutiny given photos, charts, and diagrams, and the fact that when I spot-checked a few points, they seemed fairly accurate, I have left this chart alone. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 01:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

And where has this chart been linked?Professor marginalia (talk) 04:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The chart is linked in Gregorian calendar and Leap year. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 04:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how this chart is OR. Does it make any analysis or present any new facts? Or is it just a visual representation of pre-existing, previously published information? Torc2 (talk) 19:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The chart indicates winter solstice dates for a range of years, without stating the source of the winter solstice dates. Perhaps there is a published source for the dates, but I don't know of one that covers this date range off the cuff. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

So do you think the editor who posted it is reporting unpublished research, just made up the facts, or just didn't include a source? I highly doubt it's unpublished research (OR), or just made up (vandalism), so it's probably a WP:V case at best. Torc2 (talk) 20:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't bring this issue up saying we need to delete charts, but we need to broaden the policies to deal with this double standard. Original research is ok in some cases. Kingturtle (talk) 05:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I think perhaps the "loophole" allowing for original research is sometimes very liberally interpreted by users. It is intended to allow Wikipedians to be the primary source of some visual information. For example, uploading images of local landmarks or a photo taken by the editor of a celebrity. Such an exemption from the normal "Misplaced Pages is not a primary source" angle of WP:NOR is by and large uncontroversial. I believe we start venturing outside of the spirit of the exemption, and into much more controversial territory, when the "loophole" is used to circumvent WP:SYNTH. Another area of concern is the inappropriate use of images. That is, using images that are not clearly related to the article subject and/or using images that illustrate an unsupported or small minority aspect of an article. This type of image use often relies on correlated facts and assumptions. It may well serve the understanding of policy to modify Misplaced Pages:No original research#Original images. I would suggest changing (in the middle of the first paragraph):

This is welcomed because images generally do not propose unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy.

to:

Images are welcomed that do not propose unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy.

It's a relatively simple change that changes the tone and more clearly indicates what is and is not acceptable, when taken as part of the NOR policy as a whole. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 06:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

When it comes to photographs... I think a lot of the OR problems stem not from the images themselves, but from the captions that accompany the image. Perhaps we need to distinguish between the image and the caption?

When it comes to graphs and charts, I think we need to allow for original creations, but with strong caveats. A graph or chart often helps explain what an article is talking about... especially science articles. And since most published graphs or charts are copyrighted, we have little option but to create original graphs or charts for use in our articles. But... A graph or chart has the same impact as a text statement. It is a pictorial representation of ideas. If those ideas are OR (such as synthetic idea or an editors conclusion) they should definitely be considered a NOR violation... no different than a text statement about the idea or conclusion that the graph or chart is depicting. Blueboar (talk) 17:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Expanding on Vassyana's suggestion... what if we changed the policy to read something like: Original images created to advance or support original research (as defined in this policy) are also considered original research. However, original images that accurately reflect previously published ideas or arguments are exempted from this policy. Blueboar (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems a good direction towards sticking to the spirit of NOR. Compiling disparate information into a single, concise graph is much the same as a compiling disparate information into a single, concise article. There is only original synthesis where the compilation suggests (explicit or implied) a conclusion that none of the sources support. The major difference is merely the wider opportunity for debate over the implications of graphs and images. As for the caption, it would probably be appropriately handled by prohibiting original analysis of any graph, whether formed from one or many sources of information. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Honored in the breach . . .

I'm sure this has been answered before, but here goes — What about the overwhelming number of articles that are based only on original research? You know as well as I that many of them are written and edited by a small number of aficionados who correct each other's mistakes and just have a fine time doing it, and in the meantime produce a genuinely interesting and helpful article. From time to time one editor or another might add a Source, but for the most part the article is a pastiche of opinions which, because of the Wiki format, eventually turns out to be fairly straightforward. Well, what about them? Doesn't their existence just prove the futility of this NOR regulation? Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 19:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you provide an example? Torc2 (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Good question. Just click on "Random article" in the box to the left, and you can have your pick. I did so and came up with these in just a few minutes: Exit_Ten_(Exit_Ten), Schötz, Prince_Edward,_Duke_of_Kent, Bob_Constan, Singing_News_Fan_Awards_for_Favorite_Soloist, Ince_(Wigan)_railway_station, Alexander_(emperor), Biloxi_Steamers_Baseball, and Honda_GB500. (It is true that none of them seem to have undergone extensive editing, but the principal is the same: They just don't have any Sources and appear to be Original Research.) Yours sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 21:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you give us some examples of statements from these articles that you think are OR. I have a feeling that most of this is simply a case of the articles not being verified... as opposed to their not being verifiable. Not really original research... just non-cited research. I am not excusing these articles or saying that the articles should not be improved, just that there may not be a real NOR issue here. I could be wrong. Blueboar (talk) 22:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

(addendum)... looking at the articles, I did find some OR in the article on Prince Edward, Duke of Kent (in the section on his military life)... otherwise I did not see anything that strikes me as OR. Unreferenced, yes, but not OR. Blueboar (talk) 22:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Blueboar is correct. Most of these aren't a case of original research, just a lack of sources (and often POV writing - most of them are really bad articles). Being based on primary sources doesn't mean it's OR unless there's some level of analysis or interpretation. Specifically:

• ] - No OR. Information is probably all primary sourced.
• Schötz - Just unsourced facts.
• Prince_Edward,_Duke_of_Kent - There might be pieces of OR in this, but most of it just seems unsourced.
• Bob_Constan - Just unsourced facts.
• Singing_News_Fan_Awards_for_Favorite_Soloist - Includes only unsourced factual information. This should be merged to Singing News Fan Awards.
• Ince_(Wigan)_railway_station - I don't understand why this one was included. It has a source, just not inline citations.
• Alexander_(emperor) - This needs to be sourced and the OR sections needs to be removed. I wouldn't use this as an argument against the NOR policy.
• Biloxi_Steamers_Baseball - This article has all kinds of problems: no source, POV tone, possibly WP:N issues.
• Honda_GB500 - Includes a lot of OR and unsourced information, no assertion of notability. This article is probably an AfD candidate.

Torc2 (talk) 22:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for checking those articles — above and beyond the call of duty, I would say! Without belaboring the issue, it is pretty obvious that the sentence "Until November 1964 Ince was also served by a station at Lower Ince on the line from Wigan Central to Glazebrook (to the now closed Manchester Central)" in Ince_(Wigan)_railway_station is based upon something the writer (or editor) got from somewhere that he did not cite. So, ipso facto, that was "original research." All that "original research" means is that he looked it up somewhere, or maybe saw it written on a placard, right? I mean, the uncited facts in Bob_Constan had to come from somewhere, so that was research, not so? It is very unlikely that he just made them up out of whole cloth. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 00:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem. That's not really what "original research" means though. If you're repeating the facts without interpretation or analysis, but don't cite sources, that's a different problem than OR. If, for example, the writer of "Until November 1964 Ince was also served by a station at Lower Ince" came up with the line by reading old timetables backwards until he found the last appearance of "Lower Ince" station, that's OR, because we don't know if that analysis is correct. If he just copied the information a tourist guidebook and didn't cite it, that's a WP:V issue. I mean, I can't say for sure, but my instinct is it doesn't sound like it's OR, but for all we know, it could be a total hoax. Either way, we know something with the article is not right; pinpointing which of the policies it's violating is a little irrelevant. Torc2 (talk) 00:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't the ones with unsourced facts be tagged with a request to show the sources or else have to be deleted? Kingturtle (talk) 00:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to add the {{fact}} template to any particular statement that you think is controversial and lacks a source. Generally I like to leave these templates up for a while, say at least a week, before returning to expunge the statement. We want to assume good faith that the editor actually has a source. Wjhonson (talk) 00:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)