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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by G-Dett (talk | contribs) at 23:07, 8 February 2008 (→Evidence/Discussion, Section 3: Tomstoner (presented by G-Dett)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

At request of several folks, I've set up this page as a good place to discuss my investigation, to add evidence either way. Just some ground rules, please.

Disclaimer:The goal of this undertaking is to be totally neutral and clear the air. We just want to look at the public edit histories and see where the evidence really leads, being open to both sides. Anyone is welcome to submit diffs and analysis. Please put draft material here, or if your editing privileges have been suspended, please contact User:SirFozzie or User:Durova via email. The goal is to keep this orderly and rational with the focus on the facts. When/if you open a suggestion of discussion, please put your name in the section, and if we're runnning out of pre-made sections, create more for others. Please do not edit other people's sections without their ok.

Signing onto the disclaimer. Durova 19:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Me as well. SirFozzie (talk) 19:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, PLEASE try to comply with WP:BLP? thank you. (Fozzie the eternally bemused)

Evidence/Discussion, Section 1

The median edit time per Ioeth's analysis is flawed - the median of 11:59pm and 12:01am is 12:00am - the model used shows it as 12:00pm. Flawed tools yield flawed results. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with User:Ronnotel; this whole thing looks out of order to me. If somebody has credible evidence the somebody else did something wrong, they should gather it up and submit it to the proper forum. The ad hoc forum on AN and this even more ad hoc forum is starting to look like a kangaroo court or a witch hunt. I say call it off until you have enough credible evidence to properly "prosecute." Otherwise it looks more like a persecution. If you can't come up with convincing evidence, are you going to apologize and humbly ask Samiharris to come back? (I'd guess you won't) Smallbones (talk) 22:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There are precedents for writing up the more complex sock reports in user space. SSP really isn't good at handling cases that cover several thousand edits. Both sides are welcome to present diffs and analysis, and some of that is in preparation from the other side soon. Durova 22:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Evidence/Discussion, Section 2 by SirFozzie

Appropos of the previous editors (except one theory that I don't think we're going to hear about again, (or at least I hope not...).. This is not a persecution. Or what have you. Many editors, both administrators and otherwise have concerns about the links shown in the evidence provided. I created this page to keep things from overwhelming AN, but if folks don't want to use it, they certainly don't have to... and I invite you to post exculpatory evidence if you have it, like PouponOnToast did. (BTW, I have to thank Durova for the word exculpatory.. learn something new every day! SirFozzie (talk)

Sorry, should have read WP:BLP before advancing that theory, wholeheartedly apologize. I was actually being serious though, I was just worried that we might be hassling two different people using the same computer; and that was one of the first reasons I thought of to explain why two men would be agreeing with each other so much. --BETA 22:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Evidence/Discussion, Section 3: Tomstoner (presented by G-Dett)

I posted something regarding Tomstoner over at ANI, and Durova suggested I bring it here. I had asked Mantan about his strange rewrite of a Tomstoner talk-page post way back in May. Mantan deleted my first two questions to him, but here is how our exchange stood when he archived it. Note the diffs showing Mantan and Tomstoner edit-warring together.

I don't think there can be any conceivable doubt that Tomstoner was operated by Mantan, notwithstanding Mantan's categorical denial at the end of our exchange. That Mantan extensively revised Tomstoner's post is damning, of course, but what makes the evidence absolutely conclusive in my view is the paragraph Mantan writes from scratch and adds to Tomstoner's post:

Your depiction of the one edit that you reverted is wildly exaggerated. On the edit summary, you neglect to mention that I repeatedly acknowledged that the editing summary was incorrect. Furthermore, you not dispute the actual substance of my edit itself on the Naked Short Selling page, but instead attack me personally and claim that I am not worthy of saying that it was "otherwise correct." Lastly, I would note that your initial comments on my talk page were unecessary, because they duplicated comments previously made by User ESkog. Your clear intent was to pick a fight for Lord knows what reason, and you succeeded.

Mantan is addressing User:Antaeus Feldspar here. Antaeus never left any message on Mantan's talk page. But Antaeus did leave a series of messages on Tomstoner's talk page, the first of which indeed "duplicated comments previously made by User ESkog." (See Antaeus and Tomstoner's exchange here). In fact, none of the self-references in Mantan's paragraph ("I repeatedly acknowledged," "the actual substance of my edit," "attack me personally and claim that I am not worthy," "your initial comments on my talk page," etc.) are supported by anything in Mantan's own history, while all of them are supported by Tomstoner's history.

In short, Mantan was caught in flagrante delicto with an abusive sockpuppet, and when questioned about it, (a) lied; and (b) claimed that even raising the subject constituted "trolling" and personal harassment. All of which sounds, well, familiar.--G-Dett (talk) 22:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Do we have a positive confirmation that the other account was his sock? Durova 22:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No, Fred did not disclose the accounts that were being used, but this edit, where Mantanmoreland edits a TomStoner statement with an edit summary of "revising previous report" is pretty much a gotcha moment. There's more off hand, but that might mean going off-WP for evidence. SirFozzie (talk) 22:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

My point was that Mantan not only edited a Tomstoner statement, but typed up an entirely new paragraph, full of references in the first person to Tomstoner's history. That to me is the most solid confirmation conceivable, solider than even a positive CU, let alone the DUCK test. Not so much a smoking gun as a photograph of the bullet coming out the barrel.--G-Dett (talk) 22:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I must have confused my even numbers. 02:31, 23 July 2006 is Tomstoner's last edit. Can we find something from the last year and a half? PouponOnToast (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think SirFozzie is putting together the evidence of current abuse.--G-Dett (talk) 23:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

We're establishing that he's used sockpuppets abusively in the past, PoT. SirFozzie (talk) 23:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And lied about it in the face of conclusive evidence, while presenting himself as a victim of harassment.--G-Dett (talk) 23:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Evidence/Discussion, Section 4

Evidence/Discussion, Section 5