Misplaced Pages

It appears that this user is being subjected to remedies under the homeopathy probation, but may not have been informed of that probation and so not may not know that remedies could be appealed to the Administrators' noticeboard. Perhaps an independent admin can take a look? —Whig (talk) 18:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Without comment: R. Baley (talk) 18:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

That is interesting, why was Anthon01 removed from that list? —Whig (talk) 19:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

East. Anthon01 (talk) 19:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. That makes sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whig (talk • contribs) 19:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the second action against me in 2 days. Why? Anthon01 (talk) 19:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he was properly notified, but more to the point, the reason given for the block is 'stonewalling'.... What is 'stonewalling' in this context and are there diffs that demonstrate this supposed behavior? I know what stonewalling is, in a general sense, but I don't know how it substantively differs from 'continuing to disagree'. Disagree with whom? The consensus? Obviously there IS no consensus, any way but even if there were, disagreeing about it is not disruptive in and of itself. I thought you were allowed to express your disagreement with the consensus (if there is one), as long as you don't engage in disruptive editing. Is there a policy or guideline that describes the parameters of 'stonewalling'? I don't want to accidently violate a guideline or policy that I may not have heard of. Dlabtot (talk) 19:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Probationary sanctions were imposed by an uninvolved admin (see here), who also implied there were some checkuser findings being sorted out. Those sanctions can be appealed here, if that's Anthon01's intent, in which case I'd suggest briefly making a case and allowing input from other uninvolved admins. You could also ask the admin placing the sanction for specifics if that's your concern. MastCell 19:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The stated reason for the block is "stonewalling". Was that accurate? or was he blocked for some other reason? What was that reason? Someone's suspicions? Something that was implied? What is the specific reason he was blocked? Dlabtot (talk) 20:04, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile the edit warring rages on with nary a warning or block or ban in sight, except me. And guess what. I haven't touch the article at all. By an admin who has express his disdain for alternative medicine. Anthon01 (talk) 19:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Presenting a case? How long will the case stay open? Will Guy come by and take another swipe at me trying reveal my indentity an accusing me of being a meat puppet and commanding to leave, as he repeatedly does? Anthon01 (talk) 19:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

So far, you're not making a very persuasive case. MastCell 19:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Considering I just caught you using a half dozen accounts to edit war for the past six months across multiple pseudoscience-related articles and had the results verified via checkuser, the more germane question seems to be if you can evade a block. east.718 at 20:02, February 2, 2008

Half dozen accounts? Please read the checkuser account carefully. You're making alot of unfair accusations here. You are wrong. Ask FT2 if I have a half dozen accounts. You should do you homework before accusing me. Anthon01 (talk) 21:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Again wrong. Will I be given enough for me to comment and other admins to comment? Anthon01 (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

What is your comment on the Checkuser report here? Why is it wrong? Lawrence § t/e 20:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a relevant link . Quack Guru 20:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

East. I know you have you work cut out for you. This problem is a big one but you've pointed your adminstrative arrow in the wrong direction. Note as I have left the problem has gotten worse. Just consider that I may be a moderating force instead of an extremist. I have reached consensus with a number of editors including Jim Butler, Art Carlson and Scientizzle and Arthur Rubin. So far I am unimpressed by your efforts in this case. Your block of JacobLad is unimpressive. Used once for 1.5 hours and never never used again. Please delete as you can see I have no need for it. Anthon01 (talk) 21:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I will defend this on my talk page. And let me say it here before Guy comes through for his drive-by accusation. I have absolutely `nothing to do with Ilena. Anthon01 (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

While there was strong suspicion in the beginning that Anthon01 might be Anthony Zaffuto, the partner of User:Ilena, I no longer believe this to be the case and think that no one should raise this accusation against him. -- Fyslee / talk 06:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I will comment here once I have completed my defense there. Anthon01 (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I have sent my explanation to FT2 and am awaiting his reply. Anthon01 (talk) 01:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Explanation

(copy from my talk page) You learn mostly by floating around WP. I notice from reading talk pages that some editors have more than one account. So early on in my experience here, I decided to try it as experiment. I used JacobLad on one day and one day only. I wasn't sure what the point was and didn't know there was a problem with doing until after. I still don't know what the rules really are because I see others talk about openly on there talk pages. Anyway I decided it didn't interest me and haven't used it again since that day.

Bottom line is, with one exception on 1 day, I use one account and one account only, that is Anthon01. FT2 can confim that.

I have a computer at home, a computer at the office, a computer at the library. My computer at the office is static. My home computer is mostly static (cable service). There is a time limit on how long you can stay inactive before you are automatically logged out by WP servers. More in a momment. Anthon01 (talk) 21:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

FT2: I think I can prove to you that I didn't willfully evade a ban, but I will have to do it at least partially by email because it involves discussing IP addresses. Are you willing to do that? Anthon01 (talk) 22:09, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

So I use different computers for convenience. FT2 can confirm that when I login using all those different IPs, I alway use the same account. I think in the last 2 months I have posted a message using an IP only twice, both times erroneously as I didn't notice that I had been logged out by the WP server. I'm sure all of you can relate to that. I was blocked only once, back at the beginning of December I think. FT2 can confirm that the IPs he has found were not used during that time. Anthon01 (talk) 21:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

...

I have no idea whether the libraries computer are static or not. I have only posted from there rarely. Why do I post from there? I have access to full-text journals. SO I can read the whole article before commenting. Could you imagine how much better WP could be if we all had acces to full text instead of depending on an Abstract? Anyway, thats the reasons for all the different IPs. Now East718 has accused me of having half a dozen different accounts. Wrong. Please read checkuser over. FT2 can confirm that. More to come ... Anthon01 (talk) 22:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

(End of copy from my talk page) Anthon01 (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Commenting purely on the sock concerns (and not on any other article editing matters): Quick summary - The information available supports AGF on the sock concerns, with lessons hopefully learned about the perils of not logging in, that no harm was done with the Jacoblad account, and no malice seems to have been intended. The editing both logged in and logged out, and under multiple IPs (home, work etc) was problematic and might have led to further sock concerns, but hopefully Anthon will avoid that in future. I have taken steps in private to address that. (My comment). FT2  12:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

While Anthon01 may appeal to some few collaborative situations with some editors (a couple of whom share his POV on many alternative medicine matters), he is pretty much constantly in conflict with editors who are scientific skeptics and supporters of mainstream POV. Those conflicts cannot be ignored or undone by a few favorable situations when editors of his own persuasion support him. -- Fyslee / talk 06:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Fyslee: I will be commenting a little later today. Anthon01 (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a recent example where consensus is reached with mainstream editors, and not editors of own persuasion. I will find another. Anthon01 (talk) 16:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I still want to know what 'stonewalling' is, precisely, and see the diffs in which User:Anthon01 engaged in this behavior. Dlabtot (talk) 16:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Otherwise how can I defend myself properly. Anthon01 (talk) 17:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Background info regarding improper use of a sock by Anthon01

In contrast to Anthon01's statement above, I find the actions of Anthon01 while using his sock puppet, JacobLad, quite "impressive" and a significant violation of policy here. Talk about a deliberate attempt to avoid scrutiny! I noticed the edits by JacobLad at the time because they occurred at a very opportune time for Anthon01. Why? Because at that exact time period (minutes) we were engaged in a very heated discussion (with Anthon01 being backed up by Levine2112, both of whom are very strong advocates of chiropractic, a competing profession) about edits that made quite false implications about my own profession of Physical Therapy.

This diff is the last edit in the section where the discussion can be found, so the whole section can be read on that page. I tried to improve the false phrase by a rewording and the introduction of very good sources. They continually reverted it. You will notice that the List still fails to contain a single mention of chiropractic in any manner, even though numerous attempts have been made, even with good sources, to include its pseudoscientific aspects (vertebral subluxation, Innate Intelligence, vitalism). This situation is caused mainly by the efforts of Levine2112, who claims to be a "chiropractic advocate" and has admitted he is here "to protect chiropractic's reputation." The edit history of the List shows this charge to be true. This type of deletionism of well sourced inclusions needs to be stopped. It is disruptive protectionism and violates NPOV policy. When Anthon01 arrived, they became a tag team to protect chiropractic.

By editing the Physical Therapy article in the manner which he did, Anthon01 was effectively taking revenge by attempting to smear my profession. He was trying to do it at the List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts, and then he used a sock puppet to do it at the PT article itself. He also edited it using his Anthon01 username, in cooperation with Levine2112.

It is important to note that I respect NPOV, even when it goes against me and even when it means the addition of nonsense, as long as it is encyclopedic and properly sourced. That is why I didn't revert his additions or edit war with him and Levine2112, since the additions were properly sourced and to some degree true. Whether they are a notable POV is another matter, since the same can be said of some aspects in most mainstream medical professions, and most aspects of all alternative medicine. It is an especially ironic situation, considering it is an example of the Two wrongs make a right logical fallacy being used by two believers in alternative medicine and pseudoscience. They delete obviously good sources that criticize their favorite profession, and then attack a mainstream profession in revenge.

All of mainstream medicine has issues of this type because we are working with inherited techniques that seem to work, but are sometimes uncertain. Fortunately they are dumped if proven to be ineffective. That last part isn't mentioned by them in their edits there.... Within alternative medicine, and to a large degree chiropractic, this is not the case. Applied Kinesiology is itself a notable example of a pseudoscience being practiced by a rather large number of chiropractors. It is also an article which Anthon01 tried to dominate when he arrived here.

What should be done about this misuse of a sock puppet to edit disruptively (even when using good sources) is up to admins to decide. It was definitely not a collaborative situation. Just because it happened some time ago, doesn't mean it should go unpunished. -- Fyslee / talk 06:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Greetings Fyslee: I will be commenting a little later today. Anthon01 (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This definitely puts the use of the sock, together with copious volumes of other disruptive activites on the part of Anthon01, in a new light. Thanks Fyslee.--Filll (talk) 15:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive? Prove it! Anthon01 (talk) 15:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Two comments: (1) are you not under some administrative restriction now? (2) your posts here speak for themselves. I rest my case.--Filll (talk) 15:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Well consider me ignorant. I am under no admin restriction. Please clarify. Please consider WP is very new to me, and certainly this process of adminstrative review is. Anthon01 (talk) 15:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Filll: Re: copious volumes of other disruptive activites. Prove it. This is hyperbole on your part. Anthon01 (talk) 15:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The current situation is a bit too dangerous for me to engage in this sort of provocative and confrontational activity. I leave it to the admins who have already dealt with you and I suspect might deal with you further in the future if an attitude and behavior shift is not imminent. I hope so.--Filll (talk) 16:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you consider striking out some of your inflammatory comments? Anthon01 (talk) 16:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully decline to do so, until such time as I am informed by some authority that this was a mistake or has been rescinded, and Fyslee informs me that he was mistaken. Thanks.--Filll (talk) 16:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Fyslee: This is mostly a rant. Theres is absolutely no need to respond to most of what you have written here as it belongs on a talk page. If you would like we can take it to your or my page, or a talk page if you find that more appropriate. If there is a specific violation policy that you think I should be penalized for then state it and I will respond. Anthon01 (talk) 15:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Fyslee: Please provide diffs. Anthon01 (talk) 15:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it worth having this user around?

Can anyone point to one positive contribution this user has made? If not, should we consider, perhaps, a community ban? ScienceApologist (talk) 19:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Does this editor actually do any editing? While communication is an important part of the wikipedia process, it has to be balanced with contributions to our primary purpose - that of creating an ecyclopedia. I am not seeing much evidence of this balance. I think before a community ban, the editor should be encouraged to spend some time doing some editing... --Fredrick day (talk) 19:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Anthon01 has done sufficient editing for the encouragement to be unnecessary. SA's point stands. •Jim62sch• 20:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems a fair point, sadly. The sheer tendentiousness by which he has handled his "defence" here does not suggest future promise, either. Orderinchaos 11:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The reaction by his opponents to requests for diffs to substantiate the accusation of "stonewalling" (such requests have been made three times above and twice below by User:Dlabtot and twice above by User:Anthon01, and answered zero times) can, ironically enough (unless I've missed something) be reasonably characterized as stonewalling. —Random832 18:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I gave a diff. Did you miss it? ScienceApologist (talk) 16:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Diffs of all kinds of problematic edits

• Falsely claiming lack of consensus.
• Falsely claiming lack of consensus.
• Disregarding a study to suit his POV.
• Adding a red herring comment to further his disregard.
• Adding emotive language to further insult the person offering the study.
• Wikilawyering to push his POV.
• Jumping to conclusions about how a review's "determination" will affect future research (as if that's Misplaced Pages' concern).
• More Wikilawyering pretending that editors who are perhaps more steeped in NPOV than any other part of the encyclopedia don't understand it.
• Discounting a survey based on raw numbers rather than considering the sampling (a common tactic of POV-pushers who wish to denounce a less-than-flattering survey).
• Quixotic comment: perhaps meant to convey distrust of a source?
• Pure stonewalling.
• Ad hominem dismissal of a reliable source.

I could keep going, but will spare the reader. Just go through his contributions. It's not hard to see that this user does not so much disrupt discussions as much as he destroys them with questionable rhetoric and ridiculous repetition.

ScienceApologist (talk) 16:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for providing diffs. I will review them and comment later. Anthon01 (talk) 22:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist: Why did you feel you needed to comment on each the diffs? If they're so damning, shouldn't they speak for themselves? Anthon01 (talk) 01:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why it is User:ScienceApologist, one of the main combatants in this WP:BATTLE, who is providing this 'evidence', rather than User:East718, the blocking admin... Dlabtot (talk) 22:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I have personally checked all of the diffs that ScienceApologist supplied. None of them seem remotely problematic to me, all of them seem perfectly appropriate. The last one, which ScienceApologist characterized as "Ad hominem dismissal of a reliable source" is particularly contrary to the fact that Quackwatch has been found to be an unreliable and partisan source by the Arbitration committee. —Whig (talk) 22:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Whig, we know that you are not neutral on this issue. Please refrain from lobbying. I am unsure why East718 has not commented. The continued battling here is not helpful. Please send an email to East718 asking for a response, Anthon01. Thank you. Jehochman 22:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Nobody seems to be neutral on this issue, however. I am correct in pointing out counterfactual descriptions of diffs if nobody else will do so, as Anthon01 is entitled to have someone point that out. —Whig (talk) 04:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I've sent him an email. ScienceApologist isn't neutral either as we are often on opposite sides of an issue. Anthon01 (talk) 23:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

East.718 has not been online on 5 Feb, and only made one edit on 4 Feb. It's likely that he hasn't seen this thread. Horologium (talk) 01:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, the statement that QW was found not to be a WP:RS was clarified to state that some QW pages are not reliable. Whig's statement above qualifies as censored tendentious. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

How so? Do you mean that incorrect statements are qualified as tendentious. Anthon01 (talk) 18:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I mean that Whig's statement is a misinterpretation of the ArbComm ruling as clarified. As it's being used in an edit war, that makes it tendentious. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there a link to the ArbComm ruling? Anthon01 (talk) 18:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Try here. Those QW links were ruled to be unreliable, but further discussion on WP:AE led to modifications not reflected in that ArbComm ruling. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

What am I suppose to do with WP:AE link your provided? My question is serious. Is there an effective way to search through past AE decisions to locate QW related decisions? Thanks. Anthon01 (talk) 21:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I need to express concern that Jehochman has asked Whig to refrain from lobbying because Whig is not "neutral" on this case. However, neither is Jehochman or anyone else here (including myself)...and because there are a lot more people here who have strong POV against homeopathy and Anthon01, the result is obvious and predictable. I sincerely hope that all penalties against Anthon01 be voided until an independent and/or outside group analyse the situation. Anthon01 has continually be a gentleman, but he has also had a backbone, and many of us have continually seen an active effort to mute people who express a pro-homeopathy point of view. Considering all of the strongly worded antagonistic and even offensive statements that exist in many articles related to homeopathy, the individuals who try to provide some balance by providing RS, V, and notable references that just happen to provide a positive view of homeopathy are often harrassed, have their contributions deleted completely (not just partially), and have had efforts like this one to mute them. Dana Ullman 07:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Still no response from East718. Its been 3 days. Anthon01 (talk) 19:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Jeeny (talk · contribs) → GeeAlice (talk · contribs)

Just a heads up that I've filed an RFCU about Jeeny (talk · contribs) and GeeAlice (talk · contribs). It does not look like previous disruptive conduct is about to reform any time soon. — Zerida 00:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a notice on GeeAlice's talk page about this or the RFCU. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Notified GeeAlice, though I suspect she knew given that she deleted these quotes from her user page (which User:Jeeny also used to have on hers) after I filed the 3RR report. — Zerida 01:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the quotes because of rude behavor by Zerida, and others. Zerida kept reverting a tag I placed on an image to be renamed, Egyptians.jpg to Egyptians collage.jpg. I posted to his talk page asking why, and he responded rudely. I was trying to explain the reason for this change, now this. ←Gee♥Alice 01:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a note that I have indef blocked GeeAlice (talk · contribs) per the outcome of the checkuser. A no brainer since she logged out and started editwarring on the RFCU. -- lucasbfr 10:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Given that User talk:Jeeny was deleted because Jeeny claimed to want to execute the right to vanish, but plainly has not done so, should it be undeleted? -Hit bull, win steak 16:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Lot of that going around lately, huh. ⇒SWATJester 19:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's only a matter of time before she creates her next sockpuppet--I've seen it before. It doesn't stop their pathological obsession or stalking either. However, I don't think it was a good idea to delete the talk page; with such abusive users, all the evidence goes along with it. — Zerida 20:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The talk page should definitely be undeleted. In fact, I seem to recall posting to this very board a while ago that Jeeny was going to be a problem user.....⇒SWATJester 20:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, problem users that use the right to disappear as a fast exit strategy should lose that right if they reappear. David D. (Talk) 22:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've restored it. -Hit bull, win steak 14:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• As the bowl of petunias said, "oh no, not again". I confidently expect this to carry on through numerous further iterations. Guy (Help!) 16:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

An inevitable outcome I am sad to say as long as there are editors/admins who feel the urge to provide support and protection to troubled and troublesome users. While it is quite clear to at least some of us that someone this disturbed not only should be nowhere near Misplaced Pages, but should have been blocked long ago, others apparently disagree! I have this vague memory of the project being about "building an encyclopedia", not running a social service clinic, or a forum where we "hang", keep each other company, and let people run roughshod over every policy and guideline to maintain our POV. — Zerida 03:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible edit-war

Hi, I was recently banned so I took a break and haveing been said that, I feel I should ask for help before it escalates. Here's the situation, I've been trying to edit on an article and I provided a reference in the form of a narrative from the video game itself, but there seems to be some people who don't feel I can interpret the narratives portrayals. I do believe the below adheres to my right to contribute to Misplaced Pages. Anyway, here's the page:

"Secondary sources are accounts at least one step removed from an event. Secondary sources may draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims. Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors." InternetHero (talk) 19:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The short version is, you personally are not a secondary source but rather an agent of original research. Find an appropriately published secondary source with the game narrative and you may have something to work with -- though simply having a source is not itself a guarantee that the material is suitable for inclusion (I make no judgment either way here). — Lomn 21:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Depends on what's being added: plot summaries are almost always sourced to the fictional work in question, because they are neither interpretive claims, analysis, or synthetic claims. But if you, InterhentHero, are doing any more than provided a straightforward plot summary, you should use secondary sources. Natalie (talk) 13:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. What type of source is the games' narrative? I don't even feel I'm making synthetic claims at all. In a nutshell, my interpretaion of the narrative doesn't fall far from simple translation. The character obviously uses the words, 'feel', 'owww', and 'me', yet the other editors feel that this isn't sufficient evidence to interpret that the character does have some self-awareness. For all we know, the other characters could be all cross-dressors, but the only place-holder here is our reason telling us that it is logical that they're not. I feel I'm simply using logic. Does such an interpretation fall further from the narrative than I think? InternetHero (talk) 20:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The game itself is a primary source, and can be used to "make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge" (WP:PSTS). Unfortunately, if there is disagreement among editors about your representation of a narrative, it may be best to concede your point, whatever its merits (since by definition it is not therefore "easily verifiable" to them), and concentrate instead on finding a reliable source to support the information you wish to add. 86.44.6.14 (talk) 22:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User:VoABot II

User:VoABot II just reverted my edits to Jerry Hall where I added several references substantiating that Jerry Hall and Grace Jones shared an apartment together. This was hardly spam! 64.122.14.55 (talk) 23:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

A blog is not a reliable source. bibliomaniac15 23:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I attempted to add three references because none of them were particularly strong. Only one was a blog. But all the references were removed in the revert. 64.122.14.55 (talk) 17:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

So try re-adding the references that weren't blogs. A bot can't be perfect. OhNoitsJamie 17:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, you can try adding them one at a time using {{cite web}}. Ones that don't make it can be added to the article's talk page. OTOH, a blog, another wiki, and one person's report are hardly reliable sources.   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 18:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not advocating bots could be perfect but that it should be mended as I have obviously found a defect. I am well aware my citations are far from the most reliable, however, methinks that is better than nothing there (the point is, everyone is welcome to add content and I was trying to exercise my ability by contributing; I was not trying to deface by adding links for purposes of promoting such sites). The suggestions about adding one citation at a time and adding the remainder to the talk page is a good interim workaround. 64.122.14.55 (talk) 00:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Zenwhat blocked indefinitely

I have blocked Zenwhat (talk · contribs) for what seems to be a bizarre pattern of disruption - odd "joke" edits such as , adding provocative discussion to Jimbo's talk page when Jimbo has nothing to do with it at all, edit warring with other users on their talk pages, making POINTy userspace pages that have been repeatedly speedied, among many others; all with very contribution to building our encyclopedia. Others have tried to reason with/warn him, such as at User talk:Zenwhat#Your purpose here and User talk:Zenwhat#Only warning, but it really just seems like he's only here for general disruption and trolling of the project and its community. I think it's clear that the community is at the end of its rope with him, and I have blocked him indefinitely; I welcome any further review or comments from the community. krimpet✽ 04:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

About time someone stopped the trolling. β 04:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree, and endorse indef block. I think we've had enough. - Rjd0060 (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I fully support this block. I also posted to Zenwhat's talk page recently here; seems no amount of hinting is getting through to an obviously intelligent editor. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(ecX2):From what I can tell of the timeline, his only edit after the final warning was a reasonable discussion of "the Register" article on Jimbo's talk page which in itself isn't reason for block. Granted some of his edits have been "weird", he hasn't done anything block worthy after the mentioned final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 04:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This was an older one. I had been musing on what to do myself - ....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Might be a little abrupt, but sometimes enough is enough. RxS (talk) 04:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Endorse block per these edits: "inclusionism the force of evil," "inclusionism and deletionism are evil," , , "The inclusionist cabal," , , and . Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 04:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

All of which happened before his final warning.. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 04:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been expecting this block for a while. Yes, there's a chance that he'll behave better if someone unblocks him, but more likely, he'll just be re-indef'd in two weeks or so. --Carnildo (talk) 05:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

"For instance, I assume that your constructive PETA and WP:V are just a cover for your anti-Libyan POV pushing. " Joking or not, that's trolling. Endorse the block. — DarkFalls 04:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Been watching it since this . Endorse the block, trolling needs to stop.--Ѕandahl 04:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't fully agree with the block, it just seems so sudden, from the look of his talk page the user was discussing about a warning concerning his behavior shortly before being blocked, perhaps it would have been wise to let that discussion continue (since he only edited mainspace once after it was started) or at least issuing a shorter block before the indef. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Strongly oppose this block - Zenwhat's mostly meta-editing, and a lot of it's silly, but very little of it crosses the line into truly disruptive.

Mostly or entirely meta-editing is an issue, which has been held to be something which isn't good and needs to be corrected. Crossing the line with silly stuff has also been held to be a problem.

But this block fails to AGF and fails to give the type of clear warnings and good-faith efforts to work with the user to correct problematic behavior that we expect.

I am strongly inclined to unblock. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You make a reasonable case, I think. From the support for the block it sound like many people find him annoying, but this in itself isn't reason for an indef block. Maybe people with serious concerns about his editing would consider an RFC? An indef block is a harsh step if other dispute resolution avenues have not yet been explored. Friday (talk) 05:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

How are edits like this not disruptive? --MZMcBride (talk) 05:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Also done before his final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 05:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's disruptive (on the disruptive side of being silly, but disruptive). No warning, no shorter block, straight to indef because of this? This exceeds the tolerance band for "exhausted community patience". Failure to provide adequate feedback to problem users and adequate opportunity for reform is a massive failure of administrator good faith. Mentor? Sure. Shorter block? Sure. Warnings? Definitely. Indef right now? I am wondering if it's necessary to file an arbcom case. Hopefully both the community and Krimpet see reason and adjust response accordingly.

If all he does for the next month, after being properly warned and helped and talked to and shorter blocked, is more disruption, then I stand aside. Lacking those efforts... this is wrong, here and now. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I endorse this block from the diffs provided and my interactions with the user. Lara❤Love 05:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(e/c)I've encountered Zenwhat on various pages and generally found his comments to usually be somewhere between comically strange and trolling. Unfortunately his comments have been mostly toward the latter lately. I endorse this block. Mr.Z-man 05:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would advocate that an unblock be applied only if he is mentored, otherwise remain blocked. I might be biased, as I have only seen the more negative sides of him, but the mere existence of blatantly POINTy requests and actions and trolling over an extended period of time is too poignant to ignore. AGF does not mean we don't react if we keep getting slapped in the face. —Kurykh 05:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

An indefinite block is extreme overkill. Blocking itself is a last resort, and indef. blocking even more so. Do shorten this block, per the blocking policy. This user has gotten two blocks in their time here. Is there any reason to believe that a 24 hour block would not suffice? -- Ned Scott 05:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

That is exactly my point, no other blocks or anything of the sort, just jumping directly to the banhammer seems inappropiate, and I feel that the block was placed to get rid of him because he has a tendency of being "annoying". - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Support block, though uncertain on length of time. Zenwhat has little to no understanding of our basic policies, and even when they are explained, he responds with nothing more than contempt. Here he refers to me as a single purpose account and POV-pusher. There is no doubt in my mind Zenwhat is a reincarnation of a former editor (banned or retired, again I'm not sure) and his edits do nothing to benefit this project. With that said, Zenwhat needs to immediately change his ways, but there is a chance he could be a productive editor if he does so. - auburnpilot talk 05:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, a block is in order, but we shouldn't conclude an indef block yet. -- Ned Scott 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Remember, indefinite doesn't mean infinite; it just means the length of the block hasn't been decided or will be determined by the future actions of the blocked user. Sancho 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I support the indef block given much of what I've seen over the last several weeks. But since I can reasonably guess it'll be shortened, I'd support a namespace ban, no edits to the project space/project talk space for 2 months, excepting Misplaced Pages:Bots/Status. Possibly extending to other "discussion" spaces, depending on a more detailed examination of his edits. MBisanz 05:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, I think that might be too extreme. Give him a 24 hour, or even a week long block. He's only gotten one other block other than the one he has now. I've come across him in the project talk namespace, and while I thought his comments were a bit off the wall, I didn't consider it disruptive. -- Ned Scott 05:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Everyone, please do remember that "indefinite" does not mean "infinite," whatever precedent may indicate or imply. An unblock or shortening of the existing block is still on the table. —Kurykh 05:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd support a shortening of his block to a week or more and then a Wikispace ban after that, besides requests to AIV, RPP, and the like. I think that indef blocking is overkill in this case, but the trolling still warrants a block for a longer period of time. bibliomaniac15 05:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Endorse the block. The user has been bordeline trolling at the Village Pump for some time; his discussions are unneccesarily provacative. I would support an unblock ONLY under the condition that he receive a ban against all non-article editing. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Would people support a reduction to 48 hours with a further warning? He's had a 24 hour block, for a similar reason, 48 might be a good middle ground for a next step. RxS (talk) 05:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Only if that includes a temporary ban on project space. - auburnpilot talk 05:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The original indef block makes more sense than a reduction to me. _(1 == 2) 05:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, well, too bad the blocking policy doesn't think that way. -- Ned Scott 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think he'll get the message enough that we won't need a project space ban. -- Ned Scott 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary limits seem silly. If we believed that the user was interested in stopping the problematic behavior today, then there would be overwhelming support to overturn the block. 48 hours is not a magic number, unless we are in the business of handing out "sentances" for "crimes", and last I checked, that was not part of an admin's job description. Unless the user agrees to abide by a Misplaced Pages: namespace ban, I don't see where any arbitrarily shortened block would serve any purpose at all. This block is not an attempt to stop an imminently disruptive behavior, this is a chronic problem and deserves a permanent solution. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Our procedure for handling chronic problems is warn, warn, warn, try to mentor, warn, block short period, warn, try to mentor, block longer period, warn, warn, try to mentor, block slightl longer period... and repeat a bunch until indef is the last option left.

If that procedure is followed and at the end of it, Zenwhat remains disruptive, then pull the plug. But this action has unacceptably foreshortened the endgame. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

INdeed. I agree with you 100%. I was questioning the wisdom of a 48 hour block for this. Again, we are not a court system, we don't hand out punishments. One of two things must be true: The user either poses an iminent threat that we need to stop NOW (i.e. edit warring or 3RR), or the user has exhausted the patience of the community and is no longer welcome. The debate should be about unblocking them NOW or leaving it as an indefiniate block. The inbetween stuff is pointless, as it serves no purpose. We're not lawyers working out a plea-bargin here. We're trying to decide if this user poses a net risk to Misplaced Pages. If they don't, unblock them now. If they do, leave it up indefinately. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't think he should be blocked at all, but I figure 48 was something to make those who wanted indef something they could see as reasonable. -- Ned Scott 06:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm just a bit concerned about the timing of this block relative to the arrival of an article critical of Misplaced Pages which Zenwhat claimed to have been a (apparently unwitting) part of. Feels like someone felt he borke the first rule of Fight Club Misplaced Pages. ThuranX (talk) 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Do we have a link for this? -- Ned Scott 05:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This link? Endorse shortened block and project space ban. Franamax (talk) 05:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No, not even 48 hours. His only edit after the final warning, was not a disruptive one and he shouldn't have been blocked in the first place until he violated that final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 05:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

So he is allowed to disregard all previous warnings, but if he supposedly heeds the final warning, which shouldn't be needed in the first place, he should be unblocked? Every warning should be a final warning. —Kurykh 05:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Say what ???? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No but at least that should have been taken under consideration before blocking, usually blocks are issued when a violation happens after the final warning. - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(ecX5): Considering it was given as a final warning, even named as such on his talk page, he shouldn't have been blocked until he violated it. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(ecXmany) Endorse unblock (with extreme reluctance, because I think it's fair to say that Misplaced Pages's a more pleasant place without him) for several reasons, primarily those put forward by User:Allstarecho. If he violates his final warning after being unblocked, he should receive escalating blocks. He's just not a clear enough troll to warrant an indef. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Haggling

So, we've got quite a crowd endorsing the indefinite, and a few strongly objecting. How about a week? It's not at all obvious to me that dispute resolution methods short of the indefinite block have been exhausted. Friday (talk) 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would rather want a guarantee that he will change and his understanding of what the consequences of another such violation of our policies here will be, rather than an arbitrary block duration that is almost meaningless. —Kurykh 05:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You can't make someone turn on a dime. Lets ask for reasonable improvement. -- Ned Scott 05:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Zenwhat has an unusual contribution history. His very first edit (and 3 subsequent edits) were to his monobook.css file. His fourth was a revert on The Transhumanist's user page. Has anyone done a check to see if these users are the same person? Zenwhat is clearly not a new user when he signed up for his account. It's possible, of course, that he had been editing for some time under an IP address (which is allowed), but it's more likely that he is either a reincarnation of another user, or a sockpuppet. None of that is necessarily against Misplaced Pages rules, but this account has been used from the start primarily for disruptive and bizarre project-space edits. If the account is a sock, then it should be blocked and the user told to stop doing silly stuff and to edit from his main account. If not, the user should be restricted to editing only articles (no project space or user space) and put on vandalism parole. *** Crotalus *** 05:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

He's admitted to being a previous user and having re-regged after forgetting his old password. He's not so much a sock as he is a nuisance. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem with a temp/indef project space ban is that we'd have no way to judge if he's gotten the message. I think he's proven he knows the behavioral guidelines well enough to know the effect he has by his editing patterns, he's gotten warnings...48 hours seems right. Can we get a general agreement on that? RxS (talk) 05:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No, see my comments above. A any temporary length block is arbitrary. It would be punishment, and we do not punish. Either unblock now, or leave the block up. If we believe the user will cease the problematic behavior, then there is no reason to leave the block in place. If we believe the user will not cease the problematic behavior, then what is the point of simply allowing them to continue the behavior in 48 hours? What is magic about 48 hours or 1 week or any other number? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No, not any amount of time. As I said above, his only 2 edits after the final warning, were not a disruptive ones and he shouldn't have been blocked in the first place until he violated that final warning. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 05:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Then unblock, we can't predict what pattern he will take if he only was able to edit the mainspace once after receiving the final warning. - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You'd have a point if this was a regular vandal, but we're talking about an experienced user who should know better. He's gotten enough feedback to know that his edits were a problem, whether they were official warnings or not. RxS (talk) 05:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No number is magical. But the answer is likely to be somewhere in between "unblock right now" and "never unblock". A few days block would help make it clear to Zenwhat that many editors find his behavior problematic. Friday (talk) 05:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I will oppose any unblock that does not contain the guarantee that he will change his attitudes, behavior, and actions, and a method of dealing with him if such circumstances arise again. Enough of his disruption and trolling. —Kurykh 05:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Indef block is way, way overkill here. Not appropriate at all. Bstone (talk) 05:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Zenwhat has retired per . MBisanz 06:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would not pay that any mind. He's obviously upset (with a right to be), and so I don't think it's fair to say that his retirement is permeant. Regardless of that, his account should be unblocked. -- Ned Scott 06:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have not reviewed Zenwhat's edits and know him only from interactions on my talk page. Mostly he has come there and joked around, but not in any particularly bad way if I recall. We have had some tongue-in-cheek discussions that I enjoyed. However, article space joking around is of course Not Funny(tm), and I don't approve of that. But making fun of Cade Metz's bizarre rantings in The Register seems like a good thing. I would recommend and request that he be unblocked but under a very firm request not to joke around in article space. Of course I say this not having reviewed his contributions, so I could be wrong. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The issue seems largely NOT with his article-space edits, but with his unneccessarily provocative edits in the project-space, such as here at ANI and on the Village Pump. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

But what is "provocative"? The blocking admin said that the last edit (straw?) to JW's page was "provocative", but clearly not everyone sees it that way. R. Baley (talk) 06:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I was trying to be diplomatic. He's been trolling the project discussion pages for some time. That is the central issue. Again, leave the block up or unblock now. The rest of this seems like we're plea-bargining over a punishment, and that is not why we block people. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone looked over Zenwhat's recent contributions at Misplaced Pages Talk:IAR and Misplaced Pages Talk:WIARM since Miszabot'a recent archive? Scroll down some, it's hard to miss Zenwhat accusing, and harassing other editors as a first line of argument. Then the appeals to logic( a personal and solipsistic variety). Does Zenwhat wish to contribute to Misplaced Pages? In any meaningful way? The rants on these talk pages are contrary to efficient use of the Wikipediaspace talkpages, and these are policies. Not that Zenwhat is the only disruptive editor to show up on such pages, or the worst one ever, of course. Newbyguesses - Talk 15:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

A ban is not the first step

A ban is the last step in the process, not the first one. The first step is giving this user specific ways he/she can improve, possibly through an RFC. He's come across my radar before and I've raised an eyebrow, but he's obviously a good faith user and it's worth taking a chance on trying to help him improve. --B (talk) 05:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No one is banning him. We just want to see a commitment to improvement. How hard is it to achieve that? All I see is whimpers of "too harsh" and "should be unblocked" and "blocked after final warning," yet I see no genuine attempts or proposals of committing Zenwhat to get his act together by the naysayers here. —Kurykh 06:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe that final warning did what you're wanting? We will never know since he was blocked anyway, will we? Especially since he's now retired from WP. Shame too. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 06:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but I have lost any good faith on Zenwhat heeding warnings, given his prior responses to them. —Kurykh 06:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(to Kurykh) No, that's not how it works. We don't care if he says sorry and gives us puppy eyes. This block is extreme overkill. We have other ways to deal with this, and any blocking is seen as a last resort. If you don't like that, Kurykh, take it up with the blocking policy. -- Ned Scott 06:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the only one who doesn't want the unconditional unblock, as you can see from this thread. And I don't need him to give puppy eyes and say sorry. I just want an explicit commitment from him, and a detail of consequences were decorum be breached again. This is common procedure in these cases. I just don't see why we are allowing this one to be the sole exception. —Kurykh 06:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me that he was given a final warning, he did not cause any further violations and yet he was indef blocked anyways. That is plainly disturbing. Bstone (talk) 06:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is all over the place. How about an unblock for now with a strong warning that there are serious concerns about his behavior. The point has probably been driven home effectively over the last hour. It also has to be made clear that Jimbo's comments above do not sanction his editing habits. Let's head off any more drama, and see how he reacts to all this? RxS (talk) 06:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I would support an unblock now. I know I said something different WAY back there, but yes, the point is made. If the problems return, the block can return. He's hardly "under the radar" now. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have grave concerns about due process here. It seems to me that several possible steps in dispute resolution and blocking procedure were skipped. As much as Zenwhat irritates me, this is a miscarriage. I'm discomfited by it. I would support a week's block, but indef is far too extreme. - Philippe | Talk 21:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Unblocked and put on probation

See User talk:Zenwhat#Unblocked - I have unblocked Zenwhat as there is clearly disagreement here as to the appropriateness of the block. I have also left a more clearer and wide-ranging (and less bitey) warning and probation statement there.

I invite admins to work with him with friendly discussion and cautions as appropriate. As I noted on his talk page, further serious disruption should be met by (short but increasingly long) blocks as per policy. I am not giving him a pass - I have applied longstanding user sanctions policy here. If he continues to be disruptive act appropriately. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the block, I think there is something special about this user. The user is over active, intelligent and very aware of the wikipedia policies and its history. The user knows the system from a high level perspective: See how the user responded to me at , it closed my mouth to some extent. I am mostly interested to know this user, admittedly the strangest user I have ever seen on wikipedia. I originally thought that the user is over active because he wants to become an admin, and tried to check this hypothesis, but as of now, I think the user is just active in nature. --Be happy!! (talk) 06:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And this is worth seeing. --Be happy!! (talk) 06:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

He's Back

Charles Stewart (talk) 07:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I am against issuing any blocks against against this user whatsoever . As I mentioned above, this user is special and the above diff provided by Charles proves this further. This user may have things to say and I for one want to listen if there is anything to be learned. --Be happy!! (talk) 08:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for one week

I have now blocked him for one week for his behaviour since his unblock. You can see my explanation on his talk page. Feel free to extend, unblock, or whatever else is appropriate and has some consensus here. Fram (talk) 09:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the block. What was wrong with village pump post? --Be happy!! (talk) 09:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

That it was trolling / stirring up drama by alleging secret information right after a warning against trolling? It was a pretty good own goal, though, as the financial statements had just been published less than an hour before Zenwhat's post. I don't know if one week was the proper block length, but some block was probably necessary if we want "probation" to mean anything. Kusma (talk) 10:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

... And that he removed comments by others when he removed the thread he started. You are not allowed to remove the comments by other people just because you change your mind for whatever reason. Doing this when one is only just unblocked and put on probation was not the best move. Fram (talk) 10:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the validity of his claims but why was it trolling?

And removing the section he had started does not create sufficient ground for a block; all the other comments were responses to his original comment after all. The proper way was to archive it, though, but this is a minor thing after all... --Be happy!! (talk) 10:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. First, while the terms of Georgewilliamherbert's probation do preclude the use of Misplaced Pages primarily for meta-discussion, and Zenwhat did post a meta-discussion post. But he later removed it. It should be apparent that the removal of the post was an indication that Zenwhat regretted the post or at least realised it would cause disruption; or that, instead of immediately blocking Zenwhat, he should at least be engaged on his talk page. By removing his post he has, at the very least, proved himself somewhat reasonable and sensitive to the terms of probation.

Zenwhat is already on a short leash, and realises that now. He also realised that posting the thread was disruptive, and in his realisation removed the thread. And now we are blocking him for his actions upon realisation, as opposed to reinstating the thread, archiving it and counseling Zenwhat? Ridiculous. --Iamunknown 15:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Zenwhat recognises that he should have archived rather than removed. However, the notion of this being a "1 week blocking offence"-type disruption is ridiculous. The discussion was still preserved in the history (an argument that Jimbo Wales has used to justify courtesy blanking of ArbCom pages). The edit summary makes the fact that the intent was to prevent disruption clear. Fram should reverse this block. Failing that, and even in the absence of an unblock request from Zenwhat, another admin should step in and rectify Fram's mistake. Fram's decision to restore the section - unarchived - appears not so much an attempt to preserve comments as it was an attempt to hold Zenwhat up to ridicule. I base this on the comment Fram made on Zenwhat's talk page (now stricken) that the section in question made him look a fool. This was not a cool and dispassionate use of tools based on an objective look at the situation, and the block should be reversed on that basis alone. Jay*Jay (talk) 15:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. This is just a case of someone wanting him blocked and using the terms of his probation as an excuse. Georgewilliamherbert's stipulations do not prevent Zenwhat from meta-discussion. Georgewilliamherbert only pointed out that Zenwhat's meta-discussion are considered controversial and objectionable. He didn't outright say "don't post meta-discussion". The Village Pump post was not in violation of the probation terms nor was it disrupting. In fact, many users were engaged in the conversation. He does have the right to remove something, especially since he felt he put it there in the first place out of anger. He even had the best possible edit summary explaining his removal. This block as well is foul. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 16:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I must have missed the policy change where it is allright to remove posts from other users just because you initiated the thread... And the best possible edit summary? He didn't want a flamefest, so he removed a post that was (according to you) not disruptive, and where no flames or even smoke were apparent... Fram (talk) 19:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

After all the discussion about his first block, and then an unblock and a warning he writes Based on a certain inside informer I know, I have learned that in 2007, the Wikimedia Foundation has been squandering your donations?? And spamming it on editors talk pages. I think a week is fine....that's pretty dang close to a classic case of trolling, no matter if he did remove it later. Endorse re-block, if someone wants to adjust the length that's fine, but it's clear he learned nothing from the first go around. RxS (talk) 16:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

What is this block supposed to be preventing? Blocks are, after all, preventative, not punitive. Given that he deleted the thread himself, he sort of seems a low risk of re-offending. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It prevents the exact type of behavior the user would continue in if left unblocked. that is what it prevents. _(1 == 2) 16:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems he undid the offending post. If this sort of behaviour or other behaviour breaching the probation was to continue then there would be merit for a block, but a single offence of questionable intent doesn't seem to cut it. I'd rather see how this travels before we get a decision. Have unblocked per the discussion here and on Zenwhat's talk page - does not preclude further blocks if he offends again, but I think he's got the message that change is expected of him. Orderinchaos 17:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

There are far worse users who get a bye here at Misplaced Pages

Interesting how this particular user seems to have gotten the goad of some of the *ahem* usual suspects. Sure, this user is rough around the edges (kinda like me) and has done some things that are provocative -- perhaps even to the point of trying the community patience. But that you guys would see fit to block Zenwhat indefinitely and then hold the hand of many of the other argumentative weirdos that use Misplaced Pages as their personal playground for disruption is beyond me. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, Zenwhat's announced retirement has quite possibly closed this matter. I personally hope that there will be no need to return to it in the future; a satisfactory solution looks unlikely, and Zenwhat's approach makes it doubtful that his work could have the intended positive effect on the community. --Kizor 15:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Some of his comments are kinda crazy, but I've found some his input to be helpful and positive. So no, you are wrong. This block is unnecessary, and should be undone. I'll give a standing offer to Zen that if he wants anything posted, I'll do it for him. -- Ned Scott 06:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. There was some well-intended bits in there but the tin-foil hats required made much of it, ironically, static which they seemed to object to. Benjiboi 07:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

NiggardlyNorm

NiggardlyNorm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Carlossuarez46 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Carlossuarez46 blocked NiggardlyNorm as a result of the latter's comments to the former at User_talk:Carlossuarez46#Major_Garrett_deletion. Norm has requested an unblock and I'm inclined to grant it as an obviously unjustifiable block. Since Carlos appears to have logged off for the evening, I wanted to bring it here before taking any action. Any objections to removing the block? --B (talk) 05:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Not only do I support the unblock, I also support and early close at AfD for the bad faith nomination of the article for deletion, so that after NN returns, he can build the article nicely. ThuranX (talk) 05:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I revised the article under question somewhat with a new reference and section division. I hope that helps! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 05:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Clearly not a bad-faith nom. The article was one sentence long, and it wasn't even a particularly good sentence. The nominator speedied, the article was re-created, so he took it to AFD. He shouldn't have blocked an editor for personal attacks when he was the subject of the attacks, but let's not go overboard in assuming bad faith, please. -- Vary | Talk 05:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Nominated, then immediately blocks the author under the most specious of reasoning? That IS bad faith. ThuranX (talk) 01:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI to anyone reading this, I've unblocked him. We can leave this up here a little while longer in case anyone else has something to say about it or the blocking admin wants to comment. --B (talk) 05:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Does anyone here know what the word Niggardly means? I don't think KikieKate or ChinkyChuck would be acceptable either. Charles Stewart (talk) 07:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Perhaps someone in the Wikimedia universe does. ;) <-- extraordinarily rare emoticon placed there because, in my estimation, to fail to do so would be a violation of WP:CIVIL. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

"Niggardly" means "miserly", but, some are sensitive to the use of this word . Cla68 (talk) 07:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

We even have our own article about it: Controversies about the word "niggardly". Natalie (talk) 14:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• So, apparently some people feel that calling a person a bot is OK, and that denial of one's humanity is not problematic, perhaps more especially from someone who has deliberately chosen a name that - while technically not a slur - is clearly meant to stir up emotions, just like I know that Spic & Span is a cleanser and fag is a cigarette, so who have called me those must be complimenting my cleanliness and my similarity to a cigarette. Yeah, right. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Except that his name isn't a racial slur. The mayor of Washington fired someone for using it several years back and was roundly criticized by basically everyone in the media who speaks the English language. This word and the racial slur are completely unrelated in their derivation. If he were editing articles about racial issues ... ok ... that would strain the ability to assume good faith ... but he isn't. As for his conduct, if there was anything out of line, responding with a template only inflamed the situation. --B (talk) 08:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
    • As I said: Technically not a slur, but calculated to cause controversy. We have a username policy that is not limited to actual racial slurs, but includes names calculated to disrupt. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
  • To borrow an example from Radley Balko, what next: we ban usernames with "chicanery" in them so that no Chicanos take offense? -Hit bull, win steak 15:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
• WP:AGF: people aren't under obligation to anticipate every misconstruction of their username. Niggardly is a legitimate word in polite discussion among people who know their etymology. Durova 21:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Regardless of its similarity to a racial slur, use of the word is obviously and needlessly provocative. Coupled with an abrasive tone, it's not irrational for another editor to have their guard up when dealing with this user. The Major Garrett AfD nomination was entirely appropriate, and the reaction by Norm was a little more aggressive and confrontational than it needed to be. Did Carlossuarez46 overreact? Maybe, but nothing that deserves any kind of sanction. Torc2 (talk) 01:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Incivility User:Calton

After two requests for civility,

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Calton#Civility http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=189856899

User:Calton persists in making increasingly uncivil remarks and unsubstantiated, if not boggling, accusations about various users, such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Telogen&diff=189873578&oldid=189867643.

His vitriol began shortly after I and User:Boodlesthecat reported User:Griot.

Thank you, 76.87.47.110 (talk) 06:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not a new problem... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Nor is this a new sockpuppet. It's obviously the return of an obsessive edit-warrior and self-promoter, the indefinitely blocked Telogen (talk · contribs) aka blocked-for-six-months 76.166.123.129 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) aka Jeanne Marie Spicuzza. Forum-shopping again for her crusade about the evilness of Griot and her perceived enemies. . Oh, and this IP was itself blocked a month for sockpuppeting back in November. That part is obvious: the Checkuser is only to see if there's a connection between the IP -- which has a history of sockpuppeting -- and her new ally.

This IP also seems to make a lot of odd claims in hoping to make something stick, including the physically impossible -- unless she has evidence that cause-and-effect works backwards? --Calton | Talk 06:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

False accusations and acidic insults only serve to confirm User:Calton WP:CIVIL violations. In fact, I have no idea what this user is talking about. I started sharing this apartment in January, and the rest is mind-boggling to me. Someone named Jeanne and a User:Telogen, who User:Calton clearly defames and/or dislikes and apparently shares this with User:Griot, and User:Boodlesthecat, who has a solid history as a good editor and member of the community. Is this what Misplaced Pages is about? I thought we were an encyclopedia, building and sharing knowledge, not a vehicle for personal vendetta, political POV pushing and slanderous attacks. If I stand corrected, then Misplaced Pages is reduced to a shock blog, and I will not participate in that.

User:Calton is correct on one point. I do use Time Warner, the second largest ISP in the U.S. 4.1 million subscribers. Thank you for your attention, 76.87.47.110 (talk) 08:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=189912532. 76.87.47.110 (talk) 09:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I just see a duck going quack quack. Keep up the good work Calton. --Fredrick day (talk) 09:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Mr. day, I hope that when check user reveals Calton's accusations are false, you'll be large enough to apologize. Supporting incivility, a clear violation of Misplaced Pages policy, is wrong. Your comments are disappointing. 76.87.47.110 (talk) 09:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The anon IP 76.87.47.110 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been blocked for six more months by Ryulong (talk · contribs), thus ending at least this bit of excess drama. --Calton | Talk 11:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Jeepers there's a boatload of socks on that IP. I'll check them all tonight, unless Ali beats me to it. :) Thatcher 15:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Time out

Ms Spicuzza is a writer / reporter for the SF Weekly magazine, see , who contacted the Wikimedia foundation PR staff and has been talking to a number of Wikipedians.

She has a particular angle about a local story in San Francisco that she's interested in, yes, but she is a legitimate press contact as far as I know and the Foundation know. I talked to her on the phone for about 20 min a few weeks ago, as have a number of others.

If there is an abuse case going on here, please get REALLY REALLY SPECIFIC about what's going on and who is doing what - if it is not Ms Spicuzza (User:Marynega) then don't tar her with participation in it. If it is, please let me and the Foundation (Cary Bass and Sandy Ordonez Jay Walsh have been working with her) know asap. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

That would be Jay Walsh rather than Sandy Ordonez. Thanks. Cary Bass 00:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Addendum - We appear to have two different Ms Spicuzza's - User:Marynega is the one I am referring to, who I talked to on the phone, etc. I have no information regarding Jeanne Marie Spicuzza and wasn't initially aware that these were two separate people, I thought it was confusion over the name. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't be too sure that there are two Spicuzzas (Spicuzzi?). Over half a year ago, User:Telogen and sockpuppets, who probably belong to Jeanne Marie Spicuzza (see Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Telogen, Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Telogen, and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jeanne Marie Spicuzza), were in a dispute with Calton and Griot at the Ralph Nader article.

Now, User:Marynega (Mary Spicuzza) wants to write an article about Griot , because his "name has come up quite a bit in reporting" ? This seems quite odd, especially since User:Telogen has recently reappeared as User:76.87.47.110, restarted the edit wars on Ralph Nader, and started threads complaining about Calton and Griot (including this one). I hear ducks. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, User:Marynega left messages on the talk pages of 3 of the confirmed sockpuppets at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Telogen asking them to contact her. Another sock connected to this group is User:GridiotinSanFranciski, an obvious impersonator of Griot (and already blocked on that basis). Something strange is going on here. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I'd like to state that my run-ins with J.M. Spicuzza are only tangentially about Ralph Nader and my only connection with User:Griot is we both have been targeted by her: an "enemy of my enemy is my friend", perhaps. My original interest was her vanity bio and its related articles and edits -- an article which, BTW, I'd put on my watchlist and left alone for several months, waiting for something to happen before I finally nominated it voting on its deletion and others at AFD. Which she took very badly.

I'd also like to state that I don't think Mary Spicuzza is the same person as Jeanne Marie Spicuzza -- Mary has a record of being a bonafide reporter for an alt-weekly in San Francisco -- but I suspect that there's a HUGE conflict of interest going on here. --Calton | Talk 11:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Pfistermeister

Can an admin take a look at the behaviour of User:Pfistermeister at the Hamlet (1996 film) page? Almost every contribution there seems to be a WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF & WP:NPA violation, including:

• twit
• This is *idiotic* and *sub-literate*
• Don't degrade the page by your amateurish hostility to anything you don;t know.
• Under-informed contributor degrading page.
• You reveal yourself to have a desperately inadequate knowledge of the sources, as well as distinctly poor reading skills. (Or do you have some kind of agenda? Perhaps you think this is 'your page'....?). and (same diff) Clearly you know nothing about any of this. You are out of your depth. You are an inept amateur degrading the page. Please stop.
• I have already shown that you have inadequate knowledge of this topic; your accusation that I have somehow contributed OR merely reinforces the impression and (same diff) I will not give way to an amateur who merely wants it deleted.

The user talk page suggests the user has a bit of a similar problem on other pages. I've given a warning of sorts here. AndyJones (talk) 11:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You forgot that a lot of those seem to violate WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. That's really arrogant edit summarizing, nad fairly arrogant editing, too. If he does any more at all, I'd support a block. ThuranX (talk) 12:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Warned as to civility; deferring to a more experienced user about OR and so on. Stifle (talk) 14:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the interventions. I'll post back if there are further problems. AndyJones (talk) 20:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Further infractions, today:

• the difference between us is that *you* do actual damage to pages you *know nothing about* and (same diff) what you insultingly and cluelessly call 'my personal theories' and (same diff) Happy now, amateurs...?. I have given a further "warning" here. AndyJones (talk) 09:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Pfistermeister's broken 3RR, and has clearly passed into the realms of WP:TE. He continues to assert that because HE is not wrong, the information belongs in the article. ThuranX (talk) 13:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Further violation of WP:NPA: You and your under-informed chums are applying a manifest double standard to my contributions on a page you seem to think is your personal property. AndyJones (talk) 15:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

And another: Your antipathy to me is making you irrational and reckless. AndyJones (talk) 15:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it just me...

...or do Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Oxford Round Table and the talk page of the article nominated for deletion appear to have more socks than a branch of Sock Shop? _GB 17:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not just you, and the whole thing has been giving me an itchy block finger from the outset. I found "one or two" SPAs when I first responded to an OTRS complaint about this:

• Obscuredata (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Tepid1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Academic38 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Drstones (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• OrionClemens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Amelia9mm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Franknfair (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Academic2007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Coligny (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Clearly we can add a few more to that inglorious list:

• Billingsworth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Slintfan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• InformationKey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• LAstride (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Jrichardstevens (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

What say, block the lot? Guy (Help!) 17:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. AfD a pointless mess, being used to continue some pointless vendetta. Not that the article talkpage is much better. Relata refero (talk) 18:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Would another admin please review this huge number of blocks? While it seems likely that some of them are either sock or meat puppets (I even filed an SSP report on some of them), I think others have demonstrated a willingness to work within Misplaced Pages guidelines. Blocking the lot of them as "disruptive SPAs" seems excessive. Pairadox (talk) 23:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This is overkill. I'm looking at Jrichardstevens (talk · contribs), who is requesting unblock. His explanation of how he found the AFD seems reasonable and he is a long-time, though infrequent user. Unless someone can offer a really good reason for this block, I'm inclined to remove it.--B (talk) 02:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Please include Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs) in your review, since nobody else seems to be looking at these. Pairadox (talk) 07:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

These are all single purpose accounts with an agenda of either promoting or knocking a marginally notable company. We can do without them. All of them. Guy (Help!) 08:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Please note the newly created User:Athoughtforyou, another SPA. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Just looking at Nomoskedasticity, I see no reason for this account to be blocked. It's focused on a single article, yes, but it is not being disruptive about it in any way that I can see. Sandstein (talk) 09:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Fine, unblock that user then. The rest can stay blocked, at least until the deletion debate is finished, and forever if the article is kept. They are bringing an off-wiki dispute to Misplaced Pages, and that is all they are doing. We simply don't need that. Guy (Help!) 16:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

With your agreement, I've granted Nomoskedasticity's unblock request. Sandstein (talk) 16:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Wiki Raja

Well, in short what I am going to write here will look like one of the sections above 3RR violator continuing after block. But it is much more than that. Wiki Raja (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) was recently blocked for 2 weeks for 3RR violation on Talk:Bharatanatyam; disruptive edit warring over project templates again. This block was imposed on him, after a previous block on 72 hours for disruptive edit warring. After this block, the user was clearly advised by the block admin like this:

This advise apparently did not have any effect on the user, and hence again, the user's repeated revert wars, without discussions or without gaining consensus, led to him to the above mentioned 2 weeks block. The block is now expired, and the user immediately started posting the disputed template literally hundreds of article talk page (Eg: , , ). At the least, after multiple blocks related to that template, the user was expected to start a discussion with wider audience, and should have arrived at a consensus before using those templates. But unfortunately, that has not happened.

Even he doesn't even hesitate to involve in revert wars, after being blocked multiple times for revert warring; some of the latest revert wars being: , , .

The main concerns here are: Lack of willingness to discuss; revert-warring; repeated offense even after a clear and strong advise from an Admin, and yet after multiple blocks;

Well,now, thats the "3RR violator continuing after block" part of the story, and next comes more. Severe personal attack on me, calling me racist. Please look into the section: Talk:Veerappan#Removing_WikiProject_templates and that gives complete picture instead of me writing about it. And now, you admins decide if there is any racist attitude displayed from me. On the other hand, you decide how the discussion is totally dragged out of context when I asked the question how the person (of that article) is related to the so-called civilization. I am strongly offended with this personal attack.

Next: I am totally confused and wondered, with what this user's intent on Misplaced Pages are. Please see this edit which is made after his latest block expiry. He has gone ahead and termed Cinema of Karnataka as Cooliewood. I have never heard that term before, and I am a member of Karnataka wikiproject and a contributor to Cinema of Karnataka. This is most concerning issue because, one of the meanings of Coolie is A contemporary racial slur for people of Asian descent, including people from India, Central Asia, etc. Whats more, even Google search couldn't determine what this user is saying. For starters, Karnataka is an Indian state, and apparently this is a severe insult on Wikipedians from that state, and ofcourse on the state's film industry. This kind of gross incivility is highly unacceptable in a community project such as building an encyclopedia.

I have reported all these to an involved Admin User:Nishkid64 and he suggested I start an ANI discussion on this, and here it goes. Thank you, - KNM 17:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

A couple of things:

• The "Cooliewood" diff is absolutely unacceptable. The Tamil film industry is sometimes called Kollywood, but I cannot believe that this was a genuine mistake.
• Templating talkpages is always problematic. I remember the to-do about India-Pakistan templates on Indus Valley Civilisation sites some years ago. That being said, there is nothing per se wrong with templating with a Tamil or Dravidian wikiproject template. The exchange that KNM posts reflects badly on both users.
• He's been blocked for edit-warring for two weeks. I suggest that he be given a little while longer for the "Cooliewood" diff unless he posts a good explanation for it.
• I don't see any reason for an indef. Relata refero (talk) 18:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, that template has been the centre of much controversy in the first place. The Cooliewood slur has a lot to do with Wikiraj's failed attempts in the past to sell the whole of South India and everything existing in South India as Dravidian (music, literature, architecture, people, cuisine, clothing, etc etc) as "Dravidian civilization". A page he had creeated to that effect was removed because there was no concensus that such a civilization existed or exists. Unles the heart of the issue is resolved, this problem will continue. The racial slur is only a small issue in the big problem of "race". Extending his block will not help. And may I ask, what does a dravidian template have to do with a person?.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 18:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Relata refero: In the original post, I have not written about why there is a dispute over these templating, because it is plain content dispute, and WP:ANI is not meant for that. That is why, I was just writing only user related items. But if the discussion on template dispute is required, well and good. The simplest summary is, Wiki Raja is posting {{WPTAMCIV}} template on hundreds of talk pages, while there is no such thing called Tamil Civilization! The current link of Tamil civilization just redirects to Dravidian civilization, while Tamil Civilization is a red link as of now. And the user was (and has continued now also) posting {{WPDRAVCIV}} template too referring to an earlier version of Dravidian civilization article which is now deleted.

Please note: The current article was created by an admin (User:Utcursch) after the earlier version was deleted per an AFD discussion, because there was no such particular civilization "Dravidian civilization" existed. The validity of these templates apart, the user was asked and advised (as shown above) for initiating discussion and gain consensus before simply adding the templates. I believe, now its a good time to sort out both these issues, one is content dispute on those templates, and the user misconduct and incivility. Thank you - KNM 18:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I quite understand that the template issue is beyond this board. The template, however, is linked not to any article but to a wikiproject; if you feel that is problematic, I suggest taking it to WP:Miscellany for Deletion. Relata refero (talk) 19:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Relata, I'm sorry but I didn't quite understand what you are referring to as "unacceptable" in Cooliewood diff, whether it's providing the diff itself or Wikiraja's edits. There is no doubt that Wikiraja made that edit meant as an insult to Kannada film industry due to his long lasting disputes with members of WP:KARNATAKA. It sure is an racial insult term and it hurts to see someone using the term so freely in an encyclopedia. I'm sure he used the term deliberately because there is not even one instance so far that the Kannada cinema industry is referred to as Cooliewood. He has clearly shown his intentions of editing Misplaced Pages after being given so many chances. No discussions, no consensus, severe personal attacks including accusations of racism on KNM, gross incivility, repeated violations of 3RR and frequent revert wars. Let us also not forget, the account User:Wiki Raja is a sockpuppet account of User:Indrancroos. User:Wiki Raja account was indef blocked because of sockpuppetry, but the user requested admin Aksi_great that, he intends to continue with Wiki Raja account instead of Indrancroos account. Blocklog here. Gnanapiti (talk) 18:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I meant that using the term was unacceptable, which is why I suggested extending his block. Relata refero (talk) 19:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

*sigh* How many more violations from wikiraja do we have to endure before he is packed off for good? I've been on wp for around two years now and I've not seen anything quite like this. Here's a guy who's been blocked multiple times already for repeat offences which cover the entire gamut between simple edit warring to sockpuppetry to uploading obscenity and yet his victims have to continue to grin and bear it. I'd really like to know why?

Personally, I am usually against permabanning editors for anything.. but there has to be something that can redeem an editor -- some useful contributions, some evidence of being a collaborative editor.. something... anything! In wikiraja's case, I see nothing - absolutely no contributions worth mentioning or to even use as a fig leaf for his indiscretions.

As for his templates and taking it to MfD, well.. we've been down that torturous path before. No sooner does a template or article get deleted (or rewritten from scratch) than he comes up with a mutant strain of the same thing! It was 'Dravidian civilisations' yesterday and 'Tamil civilisations' today. Wonder what it will be tommorrow. Expecting other editors to keep hauling him and his templates to TfDs and MfDs and AfDs each time is insensitive and an insult to those editors who have better things to do on wikipedia. And the cooliewood thing ... *sigh* how much more juvenile can it get!

In short, this editor has not a semblance of constructive edits to boast of and has done disproportionately more harm to the community and the project than good and the community is better off without him. He's been banned for 3 month stretches at least once before (perhaps twice) and if for some esoteric bureaucratic reason we cant permaban him, I recommend that he be locked away for atleast 6 months or a year this time. Sarvagnya 22:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment: As per Relata refero's suggestion for me to explain, I shall. Since the beginning of WikiProject Dravidian civilizations we have tried to present a diverse array of Dravidian cultures such as the Tamils, Malayalees, Telugus, Kannadigas, Brahuis and so forth. Even before the formation of this WikiProject I have noticed on the Classical dance of India page that classical dances from three Dravidian states were presented accept for Karnataka. Finding this rather odd, I have went out of my way to create a page for Yakshagana which was praised by Gnanapiti here and here just to find out that there already existed such a page. As a matter of fact I have tried my best to promote all Dravidian groups here on Misplaced Pages by even creating special user templates such as these, and include the different Dravidian scripts on the WikiProject page here (ie. Kannada, Malayalam, Telugu, Tamil). Why on earth would anyone think that I have something against Kannadigas? For everyone's information, I have been able to find Mollywood for Malayalee films, Tollywood for Telugu films, and Kollywood for Tamil films. However, with the same situation as with the Classical dance, I was unable to find a similar name for Kannada films. So, the name Cooliewood was found from this web site and thus, I have used that term to categorize Kannada film along with the other "Dravidian woods" for film. If I have offended anyone on this matter, I humbly apologize for the misinterpretation and misunderstaning this may have caused for some folks. As a habit I like things in order and complete and thus felt that Kannadiga topics such as film and dance should not be left out of Indian, Dravidian, or whatever topic. As a token of sincerity from my part I will remove the link from that page and will rename it to Kannada film. If anyone still has a grudge against me, then that is on you. I've already said my piece. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism to Shel Silverstein

Shel Silverstein (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Please see the page history. A number of IP addresses, all the same except for the last digit, have been tag-teaming to destroy this article. Please semiprotect the article and block every one of these IP addresses for 24 to 48 hours. It is hard to assume good faith in the face of a concentrated, intentional attack. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 18:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• 199.216.110.25 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 199.216.110.26 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 199.216.110.27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Shalom (Hello • Peace) 18:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, those IPs resolve to the Government of Alberta. Corvus cornix_talk 18:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

And don't leave off 199.216.110.29 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Corvus cornix_talk 18:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the article for 72 hours. I'm unconvinced that the IP's need blocking, as their recent vandalism is restricted to the one article. Caknuck (talk) 19:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Removal of neutrality tags on disputed statement on Canada

User Quizimodo: has removed {{dubious}} tag place by me from Canada page. Similar incidents on Dominion page have led to page being locked. The rules about this and edit warring have been explained to him. I don't want this happening on Canada page. References:

• Talk:Dominion#Justification_for_tags
• Editor views on subject
• "Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed."NPOV disputes

--soulscanner (talk) 19:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Soulscanner user has been wholly disruptive and uncooperative since Sep., when this editor advocated for one position on the 'Canada' talk page regarding Canada's status/entitlement as a 'dominion' only to reneg and hyper-react (initiating a number of confusing polls), use substandard references as a crutch for his point of view, and then withdrawing from the discussion. A conciliation was arrived at 'Canada' in this editor's absence, which this editor now has a challenge with. As well, this disruptive editor has barely discussed the issue on the 'Dominion' talk page 9nly doing so after repeated requests), adding 'dubious' and 'neutrality' tags to long-standing and sourced content without discussion or claiming that the references do not support the content (which is blatantly false), while producing little evidence to counter them, and threatening and then submitting a request for arbitration (without seeking other modes of dispute resolution first), only to withdraw it a short time later. He has since brought his dispute to the 'Canada' article, with the addition of tags on few notions which said editor continues to disagree with despite stability and evidence otherwise.

This is rather untenable. So, I hereby request that the 'Canada' article be locked, and/or that an administrator scrutinise Soulscanner and possibly sanction said editor for continuous disruptive behaviour. Quizimodo (talk) 18:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

My observation is that Quizimodo is unwilling to accept any sort of other view on this matter, and is removing and content that is not to his liking. He has reverted the tag three times already today. There is no hurt in having that tag on the content until the dispute is resolved. The reason the content is long-lasting, is because Quizimodo and other editors have edit-warred in the past, removing content, until other editors, including myself, just got frustrated and left the discussion. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 19:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not removing any content, only the disruptive tags which are being placed. Alternatively, there is 'no hurt' in discussing topics on relevant talk pages first and not acting as precipitously as Soulscanner has: his abortive RfA is but one example of this and is revealing of ongoing disruption. You and Soulscanner have also had plenty of time to contest relevant content, but have been unwilling or unable to or merely resort to confused polemics without cited backing. I am willing to compromise -- for example, I suggested a number of conciliatory options on the 'Canada' page during the last scrum, including the one regarding Canada being noted as a 'semi-autonomous polity' upfront, which Soulscanner has again taken issue with -- but the intransigence of these antagonistic editors (including the responder) makes this increasingly difficult. And, Misplaced Pages is not your mother: if you can't take the heat, you don't belong in the kitchen. Quizimodo (talk) 19:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have not spent any time (over the past three months) on this specifically because of your disruptive behaviour, which consistently reverts any edit which is not too your liking. I am not going to get into a war about this, but your behaviour is just as disruptive if not more than Soulscanner's. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 19:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

No comment. Quizimodo (talk) 19:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This diff is of interest. Relata refero (talk) 19:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify here for the ease of others' comprehension: I've not done what Soulscanner has accused me of. This trend of blaming me for collusion with another editor so as to suppress Soulscanner continues from his virulent claims yesterday - with notices and reports a plenty - that I intentionally vandalised his retaliatory 3RR report against me. User:Spartaz blocked him for harrassing me, but then reneged on his decision. I initially thought Soulscanner harmless, but now I think Spartaz, or someone else, should reconsider the unblock on Soulscanner. --G2bambino (talk) 19:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC) Later addition: I see now he's clarified that I did indeed not remove the tags he speaks of. Still, I find this constant need to follow him and make sure he isn't involving me in something I'm not party to increasingly annoying. --G2bambino (talk) 19:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the word you are looking for is reversed not reneged. (I withdrew the block in favour of a warning). I would appreciate another admin reviewing whether or not this ongoing behaviour complained of by G2bambino is harrassing. Having made a right of a prat of myself yesterday I don't think I have the credibility to intervene in this situation further so I won't be blocking anyone involved in this right now. Spartaz 20:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it seems you're right; I only meant reversed. --G2bambino (talk) 22:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd recommend this Dominion dispute be resolved by Mediation. Anything to put this behind us. My major concern in all of this? Article stability (surprise, surprise). GoodDay (talk) 19:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)