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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Per Honor et Gloria (talk | contribs) at 08:34, 16 February 2008 (→Explanation for changes). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Disputed

The quotes by Setton and Runciman do not fit with the Latin of the texts referred to, and it is not at all clear that these two historians are referring to the same letter. Kafka Liz (talk) 14:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

??Setton explicitly mentions and comments Viam agnoscere veritatis. Runciman doesn't, but is not being mentionned in the paragraph about Viam agnoscere veritatis. I do not see what your problem is. PHG (talk) 16:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

PHG, we have already talked about this at Talk:Viam agnoscere veritatis, please stop spreading misinformation to other articles. Your best bet right now is to participate at the Arbitration case, not to continue making POV forks. --Elonka 18:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Your accusations are ridiculous. This has nothing to do with a POV-fork. This is just a well documented article on Mongol envoys to the Pope Nicholas IV, just face it. PHG (talk) 18:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Coatrack

This article is yet another coatrack for PHG's Franco-Mongol enthusiasms. Aïbeg and Serkis are historical figures associated with Franco-Mongol diplomacy, certainly. The problem rests in the repetition of these problematic statements:

In his communications to the envoys, the Pope...in the response he remitted to them deplored the delays in establishing a general alliance between the Christians and the Mongols. Runciman also states that Aibeg and Sarkis returned to the Mongol realm in November 1248, "with complaints that nothing further was happening about the alliance".

Similar statements have been removed from Franco-Mongol alliance and Viam agnoscere veritatis, and the secondary sources to whom PHG refers have been questioned by other users (Talk:Viam_agnoscere_veritatis#1248_letter). Furthermore, the Latin of the letter in question says nothing at all about an alliance (Talk:Viam_agnoscere_veritatis#22_November_1248:_Viam_cognoscere_veritatis). If what Grousset and Runciman have to say about the letter is demonstrably untrue, we should cease to invoke them on this issue. Aramgar (talk) 17:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, neither Runciman nor Grousset do specifically mention Viam_agnoscere_veritatis, and they just mention communications and responses to the envoys. Therefore your argument does not stand Aramgar. You can't have it both ways, since you already insisted that Grousset and Runciman's statements should not be connected to Viam_agnoscere_veritatis. Runciman and Grousset's statements stand in their own right. I am getting tired of your partisan accusations. PHG (talk) 18:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

On what if not the letter are the statements of Grousset and Runciman based. Come on, PHG, are you not a little curious? In addition, I do not see how an interest in the subject matter, a regard for factual accuracy, and respect for Misplaced Pages consensus can be construed as partisan. Please refrain from ad hominem attacts. Aramgar (talk) 18:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Come on. Don't talk about ad hominem attacks, you have proven a master at them. These quotes from Grousset and Runciman were specifically deleted by you and your friends from the Viam agnoscere veritatis article because they were not formally connected to Viam_agnoscere_veritatis. They are, however formally connected to Aibeg and Serkis, that's why they fully deserve to be in this article. PHG (talk) 18:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Moon Prince

There is a paragraph of information in this article about the envoys and their background, such as that Aibeg means "Moon Prince" and that he was probably a Christian... The information is sourced to Runciman, p. 259, but I checked that page and it doesn't say anything of the kind, other than that Aibeg was an envoy, and that Serkis was probably a Nestorian. Where is the other information coming from? --Elonka 18:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

No, that specific part is from Roux. I'll quote him directly. See how you push someone to reference any single comment, and then criticize him for having "too many references" (400 refs in the Franco-Mongol alliance article), just to have it deleted later? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. What a shame. You're not a fair editor Elonka. PHG (talk) 18:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

ay is Turkish for "moon"; there is no problem here. Aramgar (talk) 03:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Explanation for changes

I have removed the problematic statements noted above (Coatrack) and attributed to the otherwise reputable historians Grousset and Runciman. The phrase "in the response he remitted to them" suggest the response that Innocent gave to Aïbeg and Serkis was written. As we have seen, the written response (here) contains no mention of an alliance. In addition, history does not record the conversations the two envoys had with their Mongol masters, and as a consequence we do no know what "complaints" Aïbeg and Serkis may have made or conveyed upon their return. The two statements by Grousset and Runciman constitute historical speculation or are based on a faulty knowledge of the primary source. In either case it would be better to go with what is actually known. Igor de Rachewiltz in his Papal Envoys to the Great Khans addresses Innocent's response to Baiju. He does not engage in speculation but bases his statements on what is actually written in the primary source document, the letter that Aïbeg and Serkis carried and the only evidence we possess for what the two envoys communicated to Baiju. It is not original research to discriminate between secondary sources. Aramgar (talk) 21:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages:NPOV, all significant views should be mentionned, and this is non-negotiable. You cannot delete proper secondary sources because of your own interpretations, or your wish to privilege only one point of view. This is a strong disservice to Misplaced Pages and goes against Misplaced Pages editing rules.PHG (talk) 08:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)