Talk:Seleucid Empire - Misplaced Pages

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Army Sizes

Alot of this information seems exagerated. Hopefully a wikihistorian can do something about it. I still dont know much about the seleucid empire, though I do know 100,000 men and 9,000 war elephants is completly absurd. What moron would send all those men to india for a mere trade alliance instead of conquering something closer to him, or perhaps retaking the other greek provinces nearby(Maybe egypt to gain more mediterainian control?).

Wildly exagerated figures are pretty much par for the course for this period when proper bookeeping didn't exist.Dejvid 19:59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Gah

This article is awful...I shall overhaul at some point. john k 14:34, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the note! I was going to use it for a presentation.... Ah the dangers of wiki. The lesbian 21:47, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've rewritten much of the article - unfortunately, I just discovered that there's a lot of overlap with Seleucid dynasty. Any thoughts on how to do this? john k 5 July 2005 04:22 (UTC)

Seleucid Armies

Does any know the composition of Seleucid armies. Would they be composed like the Macedonian armies of Alexander or would they be closer to the Persian armies, or a combination of the best of both. Jak1985 13:29, 26 August 2005

I think they had a phalanx, like Alexander's armies. I know they had elephants, as well. Probably something of a combination of the Persian and Macedonian style armies - Macedonian style infantry, and Persian style cavalry. But I'm not sure. john k 22:09, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

References

This article, despite being lengthy and informative, contains no references at all, save for one web link. I'm putting the {{unreferenced}} template at the top of the page to reflect this worrying state of affairs. siafu 23:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Era names

This article is currently using a mix of BC and BCE, so we need to pick one over the other. siafu 12:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree on the History of Greater Iran series they use BCE and in other historical articles from about this era do to. Dougmuffins 22:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Palestina instead of Judah

Palestina versus Israel is a delicate and long debate present in many articles. A user changed the current word "Palestina" into "Judah", explaining that at the time of Seleucid dinasty the deleted name didn't exist yet. But he/she is wrong. First of all Palestina is the actual name of the region where present day Israel and Palestine Authority are based, while Judah it's not the name of that place. That's why I corrected the change. Also, that's not an anachronism neither. The word comes from the latin version of Philistine, (or שְׁתִּים, in hebrew), a people how inhabited the region long before jews arrive.

No, I'm not wrong at all. ALmost everything you said above is wrong and POV. The Philistines were there before the Jews? Where is your source? The place is controlled by Israel today, but the name in Seleucid times was Judah or Coele-Syria. FACT. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The source is the Old Testament (written by the jews). The place is off course controled by Isreal state, but the region's name doesn't change because of that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.226.217.121 (talk) 15:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

That would be wrong. This was the region's name from AD 135 to 1948. The Romans picked this name out of hatred for the Jews in AD 135. Before that it had other names. There is no logical reason to go with the later Roman name, it is anachronostic and obsolete and POV as a term to describe this region. There was an entity called Philistia, but it was nowhere near the size of the other entities and besides it is not the same as the Latin name Palestine. There is absolutely no reason to use that POV name when the name at the time, Judah or Coele-Syria would be more accurate. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Chronicles of the Bible Lands: A history of the Holy Lands. John Rogerson, 2003. ISBN 1-904594--05-0 pg36 ; "Betwen 200 and 198BC Judah was wrestled from Egypt by the Greek rulers of Syria, the Seleucids" Though my preference would be for either what the conquering empire called the region , or what the conquered people called themselves at that time. Shown with references. SmithBlue 05:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

That would be Coele-Syria and Judah. Definitely NOT the Neo-Latin contemptuous term Palaestina which was designed solely to excise the name of 'Judah' from the history books, and it appears that very same spirit is once again raising its ugly head in the world... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I am looking forward to the references. SmithBlue 14:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The first time the term Palaestina was used by the greek historian Herodot (485-425). So the Romans did not invent the term. The terms "Judah" and "Palaestina" existed both at the same time during the seleucidian reign. Probably the Jews around Jerusalem used the term "Judah", while most of the inhabitants of the cities at the coast spoke of "Palaestina". That may have been a reason for the Seleucids to use the more neutral term "Coele-Syria" for the region.

Judah was a name for the southern portion of modern Israel and at the time the northern part plus Lebanon and such was called Syria or Israel. Dougmuffins 22:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I say Judaea. Why? That's what Tacitus says. In fact, he also says a Seleucid was king of Syria when Titus burnt the temple. So this article is kind of wrong...66.24.111.208 00:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Double infobox

Apart dispute, the current article features two times the same infobox. Bye. --Attilios 23:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I know right. It's driving me crazy. Does anyone know anyone to get this problem fixed while others are still arguing.Dougmuffins 22:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Reasons of protection

The disputed sentence stated: “...the Empire comprised central Anatolia, Syria, Palestina, Mesopotamia, Persia, Turkmenistan, Pamir and the Indus valley.” as of 14:22, 29 January 2007. Then, an user called Codex Sinaiticus, judged the word “Palestina” undesirable. So he changed it into “Judah”, once, and, using a pop-up program, he did it twice, again and again until I asked a fully protection for the article. Well I’ll avoid to questioning about this user personal past behaviour in wikipedia edits, as well as whether he is totally impartial on this matter or not; me personnally I’m not jewish, and I’m not muslim neither.

So, let’s focus on the topic. The word that has to be retained (“Palestine” or “Judah”) is supposed to reflect the name of the region comprised between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea (I hope those names will be accepted by everybody). It’s absolutely irrilevant wich names were given to that region by the differents politicals entities that occupied it. Image if China would change the name of Tibet.

Well, it happens that the english name is Palestine. The word has its roots in the latin Palaestinae, who came from the hebrew Plishtim (שְׁתִּים). What is more, it have been the name since several millennia, long before the word Judea was coined. The firt written evidence of that was written sometime between the 11th and the 7th century BCE, and treaths about events roughly situated between the 23rd and 15th century BCE. It is, try to guess, the Bible. Written by Jews, in hebrew. In the Genesis book, the word “Philistins” is mentionned eight times before the first time the word “Juda” is. Still, “Juda” is just the name of a person, who will, based on the Bible story, found thereafter an offspring, while “Philistins” is since the second time coupled with “land of”: for instance, a land, a region. For exemple: “Abraham resided in the land of the Philistines for many years.”, Genesis 21, 34. So, the Romans didn’t invented anything, and Herodot wasn’t the first to mention the name neither.

Thereafter, many many others occupied Palestine. Notably, the jews did. And they created the kingdom of Isreal and Judea, who later split in two indipendent states. But still, those names were kingdoms’ names, they didn’t have vocation to designate the region, and if they had, it’s not really important because they didn’t follow the Philistins presence, but just went with. Jews were not the only ones to occupy Palestine. The region was later conquered by Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantins, Arabs, etc, etc... None of them tried to change the name of Palestine once acquired, perhaps because they had their native region far away, thus they weren’t interested on assimilate the region or change its appelation. Even the crusades used unchanged names of local cities to call their kingdoms.

So, based on the jewish sources, the land between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea was called “land of Philistins” since before Abraham time, thus prior to the 23rd - 15th century BCE, while, upon the same sources, the names Judea and Israel were superimposed to Palestine since the 13th BCE ‘til, and then there are other multiple sources to inform us, the 2nd century CE, and then again since the 19th CE ‘til the present day. Archeological evidence confirm the Philistins, and thus their name, were present in Palestine before jews tribes arrive.

Ok, that’s for the past, but what about today? Even if the disputed article concerns an ancient age, it’s important to know the present day name. It’s not unusual to read the Aztecs settled Mesoamerica, even if the word America was coined in the 16th century CE, or that dynosaurs inhabited Australia, even if Australia is a recent name and the retroactive appellation given to that land mass at dynosaurs’ times is Pangea. It’s not an anachronism, it’s just a way to define the limits of a place. Well, perhaps also because of the Romans’ decision in 135 CE (after all, they had a discrete influence in the Western civilization), the totality of the world retained the name Palestine. Anyway it is the name given in english language to the region today occupied by the Isreal state, and that since long before zionism arrised.

Of course here follows a list of scholar’s quotes who credit all that. Here is what says one of the biggest works about the Seleucid Empire: “301 BCE (summer): Seleucus and Lyisinadrus defeat Antigonus at Ipsus. Ptolomy I of Egypt seized Phoenicias and Palestine.” from The Cambridge history of Iran, page 19, volume 3 The Seleucid, Ponthian and Sasanian periods, ISBN 0 521 20092 X, ISBN 0 521 24693 8, ISBN 0 521 24699 7, chapter written by E. Bicherman, emeritus professor of ancient history, Columbia University, New York. Of course Palestine is used all along the book, and Judea is never mentionnned. But let’s read another source: “From IX to I century five big political entities were created including Mesopotamia and the West of the Middle East (western Syria, Phoenice and Palestine): the Neo-assyrian Empire, Neo-babylonian, Achamenid Persian, Hellenistic and Seleucid, the Arsacid Parthian.” from Mesopotamia at Ist millennium BC, page 5, volume I, ISBN 2 200 26120 9, section written by Francis Joanès, emeritus professor of ancient history, Paris VIII University, Paris. Also here, like elsewhere, Palestine is the only name used in the whole work.

Ok, these are exemples of what the world thinks, but what about Jews? What they think Palestine’s name is? Well, actually is not really important, but it can be helpful for avoid any doubt. So here is a text from and israeli author: “In the area dealing with geography, Le Strange and the collection of sources in his “Palestine under the Muslims” are considerably helpful, as are Avi Yonah’s work on the geographycal history of Palestine, Dussaud on the topography of Syria, and the encyclopaedic enterprise of Z. Vilny (Ariel).” from A history of Palestine, page XV, ISBN 0 521 40437 1, written by Moshe Gil, professor of jewish history, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv. This quote is very interesting, not just for the nationality of its writer, but also because it states both in the book’s title and in its text the choice for the word Palestina, because in the choiced sentence it is used as sole definition the name Palestine even if it was suitable for style elegance avoid to repeat the same word shortly after in the same sentence, and because it credits an another israeli scholar. And what did Avi Yonah write? “Jerusalem: Old city in Palestine, first settled in the early 3rd millennium BC, and first mentioned in contemporary documents in the middle of the 2nd millennium.” from Illustrated encyclopaedia of the classic world, page 254, ISBN 0 06 010178 4, written by Michael Avi Yonah, professor of classical archeology and history of art at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem. So. Of all dozens books I consulted, we can note that all the historians from all around the world, included jewish ones, used as sole name for the mentioned region the word “Palestine”, the majority of isrealians authors used as sole name “Palestine”, and a minority of isrealians authors used both “Palestine” and “Judea” as synonymes. Thus I think there shall no be any doubt about Palestine’s appellation.

Maybe I wrong, but I have little hope this list of proofs will convice Codex Sinaiticus. I feel like he made his choice long ago, before even his birth, so I don’t think logic or evidences can have any weight to his eyes. Instead, what can be done, is to develop a discussion, and contact the administrator resposible for the page’s protection, User:Steel359, once a consensus has been reached. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.226.217.121 (talk) 18:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

You are arguing that the name of the region was was "Philistin" even before the Hebrews got there. However, the pre-Hebrew name that is corroborated by archaeological evidence, Biblical records, and records of all neighbouring peoples is "Canaan". Although the Bible mentions Philistines already in the country in Abraham's day, Scholarly consensus actually contradicts this and says that the Philistines were latecomers who got there well after the Hebrews. But even if they were there in Abraham's day, "Philistia" never applied to anywhere outside of their coastal settlements near Gaza. While some Greeks knew the term, it did not become official until 130 AD. The reason is because they could not stand the name Judah and they were attempting to do a large-scale damnatio memoriae on the name Judah so it would not appear anywhere. We don't have to follow this Roman damnatio memoriae today; the country was officially called Judea and Coelo-Syria in Seleucid times, so Palestine is both an anachronism and a pov term when used in the sense of a damnatio memoriae. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Palestine is a misnomer from 135AD that became accepted even up until the 1940s. This may have been said before, but the Philistines lived mainly in a narrow coastal strip. They were genetically distinct from modern day Palestinians, having come from Crete or Greece. So as well as a misnomer, it will make some readers assume that today's "Palestinians" have a historical claim to the land of Israel. So call it Judah, or Israel if you want to go further north. 01:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

We could just cut out Syria and Palestina/Judah/Israel and call it the Levant instead; this would be accurate and avoid the whole issue. siafu 01:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok the hyperlink "judah" sends me to a page that does not represent the area that you guys are talking about. Stop being so goddamn uptight, just call that region whatever the seleucids called it.

-15 feb 2007. non-member.

Seeing as the principals of the debate are no longer discussing anything, consensus is not likely to be reached. However, this page needs to be unprotected so that we don't simply violate the fundamental principles of wikipedia. siafu 16:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

map

The map on here isn't very helpful considering it's not in English.

The map on this page is actually a map of the Achaemenid empire, which is what the key refers to when you zoom in. Although it looks about the same, can one that is actually the right empire be found?01:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

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