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latest edit in introduction, explanation

Hello. Firstly, I wanted to write something first rather than revert that. Secondly, that isn't a neutral description at all, and it isn't referenced either. So it's basically quite safe for me to remove it. I had not wanted to remove it without making a post explaining why. If you check the third party page there is some discussion of Falun Gong and the Anticult movement which you may find illuminating. If there are any more issues with the removed paragraph we can talk about them here. Better to discuss changes with the other editors, too, and build consensus. --Asdfg12345 15:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to mention. I clicked "restore this version" (twinkle button), and the box came up. I wanted to cancel it and then type something here, then revert. But when I clicked cancel, the revert went ahead with no explanation. Most of the time I write an explanation if reverting is necessary. This time it was a mistake. The explanation is here anyway, sorry, thanks.--Asdfg12345 15:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I think what I wrote was neutral and common knowledge, thus not needing references. Anyone else care to voice an opinion? I'll wait a few days before I reinstate the text. I think the article is much more useful if it mentions that the organisation is controversial. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 19:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Falun Gong IS controvesial. I don't see how it can be controversial or NPOV to point that out. I mean, just look at this very topic, this very action - it was so controversial to even mention that Falun Gong itself, is controversial, that it had to be immediately deleted and criticized for not being NPOV. Now hand over those references to "discussions of Falun Gong and the Anticult movement", or stand guilty of the very error you imply in others. PerEdman (talk)

Falun Gong is indeed a cult, Falun Gong itself advertised forbearance, however Falun Gong does not allow any other people to criticize it. Any criticize towards Falun Gong will be considered evil and supporting CCP, what the heck. Not to mentioned that Falun Gong also believed in alien controlling human minds, just like scientology. Li himself has stated before that every computer user is controlled by alien, only prtaiciting Falun Gong will get rip of the alien. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 21:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

( http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html ) Times interviewed Li in 1999, this is the article about the alien invitation and mind controlling things, well, seems we are all controlled by alien now, so sad... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

"Falun Gong is controversial" is a vague statement, nor is it neutral, and it itself is a controversial statement. It's not sourced either. Putting that in the introduction will throw things off balance, because there are other sources which say that Falun Gong is not controversial, and that people saying Falun Gong is controversial only happened because of the widespread vilification of the group by the Chinese Communist Party. There are high quality reliable sources which present this view, and then that should also go in the introduction. But the introduction should be concise, anyway, so that's why I removed the original paragraph.--Asdfg12345 22:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Just my two cents: perhaps all editors are not completely familiar with the Misplaced Pages cornerstones of No original research, Neutral point of view, and most importantly of all (in this case), Verifiability. Unless you state who says what, and your sources are consistent with the Misplaced Pages standards, there's no problem, in my view. But it would require extensive and convincing arguments, as well as extremely high-quality sources, to expand the introduction beyond its current limits. Falun Gong is controversial for several reasons, and nobody's trying to hide that. Indeed, many of us have devoted a significant amount of time over the years to dig up, for instance, peer-reviewed journal articles to cast light on the stunning complexity of these controversies. And because we wish to maintain a high standard, anything will be removed as long as it's not properly referenced and attributed. That is a basic, guaranteed right of all Misplaced Pages editors. Please read through the Misplaced Pages: Policies and guidelines.✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 22:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

In practice, Misplaced Pages relies almost entirely on unreferenced common knowledge. Not mentioning that Falun Gong is controversial would be like discussing George W. Bush's foreign policy without mentioning the controversy over the second Iraq war. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 09:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you Mrund. Asdfg1235, please, stop deleting information that is anti-falungong, Misplaced Pages is not Epochtimes, readers have to know both sides of the stroy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 10:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Owing to a long history of mediation, arbitration and profound disagreements, we insist upon strict methodological stringency on these articles, not some obscurantist, unreferenced "common knowledge". Gentlemen, you are welcome to contribute, but I plead you to do so in a rigorous and transparent fashion. The same policies and guidelines are consistent throughout Misplaced Pages. Substandard content in another article is no excuse for lackadaisical editing elsewhere.

Indeed, I've always wondered why so-called "skeptics" turn completely unscientific and emotional when they encounter perceived "heresy", "quackery", or "blind belief". Instead of relying on true academic research on the complex nature of such phenomena, they straightforwardly ignore its existence and start howling the battle cry of partisan secularism: Écrasez l'infâme! They even willingly use words like "cult" to describe Falun Gong, strengthening the discourse of marginalization and alienation that aims at defining a great number of people as irrational non-persons, stripping them of their individuality and rationality, thereby indirectly giving kudos to the present means of extreme repression and subordination.

But Falun Gong is not managed or organized like a 'cult'. That is not an opinion: it is a fact, and it's supported by plausible research. If religious or metaphysical dissidence is denoted as 'cultic', the label becomes nothing but a marker of a paradigmatic boundary between an in-group and an out-group. By postulating a similarity between Falun Gong and Scientology, Raëlianism, or other such organizations, we are operating within an agenda of guilt by perceived association. In this agenda, the cultic elements of, for instance, Scientology, are magically transferred into a completely different phenomenon, which is Falun Gong, and they melt together as one grey, amorphous mass of suspicious, cultic, potentially dangerous, manipulative pyramid organizations - which, of course, has nothing to do with the serious research on Falun Gong by several anthropologists, sociologists and East Asian scholars. Regrettably, a myriad of people are not aware of what constitutes good research in cultural studies and related disciplines, and what is basically nothing but a rant in defense of the author's own biases and prejudices.

Here we mostly focus on a careful scrutiny of the editors' contributions and evaluate them against the official policies. I wrote the above to introduce some of my own views on these matters, and I am ready to continue discussion, but we shouldn't stray too far from the actual purpose of this talk page. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 15:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you now in agreement, Olaf Stephanos, that Falun Gong is indeed controversial, which is what was originally stated. If you are, then what is it you are really accusing "so-called 'skeptics'" of, as being controversial was the statment in question, not whether or not it is a "cult", which was not brought up until 203.173.174.156 and is not the statement in question in this discussion. PerEdman (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Please have a look at my first post under this header: "Falun Gong is controversial for several reasons, and nobody's trying to hide that. Indeed, many of us have devoted a significant amount of time over the years to dig up, for instance, peer-reviewed journal articles to cast light on the stunning complexity of these controversies." The disputed edit by Mrund reads as follows, and I intended to comment on that: "Falun Gong is a controversial movement. Persecuted by the Chinese government, it is seen by many as an innocent religious movement suffering repression at the hands of an authoritarian regime. Others compare Falun Gong to Scientology and Raelianism and describe it as a manipulative obscurantist cult. The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is immediately accused of supporting the Chinese government." Unless attributed to a valid source, this is just another editor's opinion, and Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be a scrapbook of such opinions; it is a tertiary source referring to transparent third-party research and other significant publications. See Misplaced Pages:Sources for more information. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 19:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's an example, after nytimes published this article , which contains negative comments towards Falun Gong and its so called Chinese New Year gala, minghui.org responded "How The New York Times' Article Was Used By the Chinese Communist Regime" , in the minghui articles, nytimes is as evil as CCP, and later on minghui published a few other articles, attacking nytimes . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 20:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not Ouyang Fei, who wrote the Minghui article in question, and I don't think the CCP was behind the New York Times review. In my opinion, it was bad journalism, that's all. Besides, Minghui is a forum of individual practitioners' discussion, not some official mouthpiece of "the Falun Gong" - such things don't exist, because nobody can really speak on the behalf of everyone else. But this has nothing to do with the standards and policies we're discussing here. Let's stick to the topic. By the way, you're supposed to sign your comments. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 20:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Well then I think the guardian and the telegraph are all bad journalism too. And anything that is against Falun Gong is bad journalism . BTW, since when minghui is a forum?

I have read all of those articles, and I do think they seriously misrepresent the Shen Yun Chinese Spectacular and Falun Gong as a result of the journalists' personal disdain. The show is extremely high-quality and has been praised by both ethnic Chinese and other audiences worldwide. According to several surveys with a large sample of audience members, more than 96 % have rated the show as either 'excellent' or 'good' (about 75-80 % as 'excellent'). Hundreds of thousands of people have already seen it. And Minghui has been a pre-moderated forum since the beginning. Again, you did not sign your comment, and this is completely off-topic, so I won't continue the discussion here. You can reply on my talk page if you have something to add. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 21:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Just like what you say above, unless attributed to a valid source, several surveys results are invalid. Can you show me where to find these surveys results. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 22:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, it seems we are all in agreement that Falun Gong is a controversial movement, that this is an interesting fact that should be reflected in the Misplaced Pages article, and that even a controversial movement can produce a fine stage show. (This latter fact is not of great importance IMHO). I have suggested that we include the following paragraph efter "more than 80 countries".

"Falun Gong is a controversial movement. Persecuted by the Chinese government, it is seen by many as an innocent religious movement suffering repression at the hands of an authoritarian regime. Others compare Falun Gong to Scientology and Raelianism and describe it as a manipulative obscurantist cult. The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is immediately accused of supporting the Chinese government."

Any suggestions as to how this contribution could be made more useful to Misplaced Pages users? Martin Rundkvist (talk) 09:42, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The controversy is presented already from so many angles, what are sources owned or affiliated to Falun Gong say, what are sources owned or affiliated to CCP say, what are third party sources say, however there is no notable mention in comparing Falun Gong to Scientology and/or to Raelianism as far as I know. So I don't really see any grounds on which this should be inserted to the article. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 12:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer it if the anonymous "others" are replaced by at least one source, which doesn't even have to be reputable. Someone needs to say it or it's a typical weasel case. However, as soon as that is done, the similarities to Raelians and Scientologists is obvious - they all appear to be cults to someone and they all claim otherwise. PerEdman (talk) 13:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If you can find reliable sources, these ideas might be developed in the Third Party section, with the anticult movement material. --Asdfg12345 12:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a little note a bit off the topic, for Martin. I don't know how you got this idea of Falun Gong. I've read nearly everything available, from sensationalist newspaper articles to considered academic journals. I've never found anything comparing Falun Gong to Scientology or Raelianism. There are also no high level academics supporting the theory that Falun Gong is a cult, or a "manipulative obscuratanist" one, at that. This comes from either the CCP or from people like Patsy Rahn, a failed soap actress who went back to school and wrote a few papers as an undergrad, or others, like Rick Ross, with no academic currency. There is also no evidence for comparing Falun Gong to these groups, and no evidence that it is a "manipulative obscuritanist cult." Even those that say these things never produce or cite evidence. Real scholars and high-quality sources don't do these sensationalist, maligning characterisations, they do not appeal to stereotypes, they do not make vague claims, they do not try to elevate differences. Correctly exploring this kind of topic involves building bridges, explaining things, and overall taking a considered, intelligent approach. It is about actually getting to the issues and making them clear, not obscuring them. I don't think a paragraph like that would help readers too much, especially in the intro. Throwing in sensationalist terms and characterisations will create confusion when they cannot substantiated or explored. Not to mention that so far there are no sources. I think to understand the topic with some depth, readers need more considered, clearer, and substantiated material. Just my 2 bob.--Asdfg12345 13:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The correct procedures are rather inambiguous: you find a reliable and valid source, evaluate its relative significance (majority/minority viewpoint), quote it without any semantic alteration (no original research, i.e. the source can't be used for the editor's own analysis), and add a footnote. I thought that I expressed this very clearly in my earlier messages, and I wonder how many more times we have to reiterate it. There are way too many Misplaced Pages editors who never care to Read The Friendly Manual. User:Tomananda and User:Samuel Luo were terminated for eternity because of that cardinal sin. (Of course, they used to come around every fortnight, wearing creepy sockpuppets all over their hairy hands, but that's another story...) ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You can say that there is not references to support this sentence, "Others compare Falun Gong to Scientology and Raelianism and describe it as a manipulative obscurantist cult.", if you try google "Falun Scientology" you will find lots of articles about the similarities of Falun Gong and Scientology, but I understand that we can not just references that. But this statement "The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is immediately accused of supporting the Chinese government." is completely correct, with references I provided above (Minghui vs Nytimes) and other examples, in fact, the discussions happening here in this page, is another perfect evidence to support the statement.

Maybe you still don't understand the essentials of what Misplaced Pages is all about. First of all: Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:No original research. Then, in no particular order: Misplaced Pages:Citing sources, Misplaced Pages:Attribution, Misplaced Pages:NPOV tutorial, Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/FAQ, Misplaced Pages:Criticism, Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing. There are more, for sure, but I kindly ask you to read through at least these policies and guidelines, apprehend their meaning, and then come back to discuss. And please learn to sign your posts. You do that by adding four tilde marks (~) in the end of your comment. In addition, consider creating an user account if you seriously plan to contribute. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 21:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reading you provided, I already read them. I am a wikipedia newbie, and I never edited any page related to Falun Gong, not to mention that nearly all of these pages are protected, even if they are not, i still will not edit them, because i know that i am a wikipedia newbie, and my english is not good enough to contribute in a professional level. My reason here provide other editors with information from the other side, because I am a native Chinese speaker, I know a lot more about Falun Gong, and I know how much we ordinary Chinese hated Falun Gong. I believed information I provided are good enough to be referenced in wikipedia, like news from nytimes. And thanks for your suggestion, I registered an account, my account name is zixingche, which means bicycle in chinese pinyin. Zixingche (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Asdfg and Olaf, please just be honest: you aren't at all concerned about Misplaced Pages's general standards here, just about protecting Falun Gong's reputation. There is no research proving that Britney Spears is a pop singer, yet you wouldn't hesitate to allow the Misplaced Pages article about her to make that statement. Now, a lot of people think Falun Gong is a cult and see great similarities to Scientology, and others don't. That's what the controversy is about, and that's what needs to be in the introduction to this encyclopedia article, which is currently heavily biased in FG's favour and thus pretty useless. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 21:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you Martin. And by the way, can we have a section in the Falun Gong Page, listing all diseases that Falun Gong claimed it can cure, and all other magics that Falun Gong claimed? So far there is articles about Falun Gong can cure cancer, can fix a fax machine and can act as an antivirus software for computer. All these articles are in Minghui.org, verifiable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.174.156 (talk) 22:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I am most concerned about Misplaced Pages's general standards, because they protect these (and other articles) against people who do not want to play fair. There's already quite a lot of material from writers who have labeled Falun Gong as a 'cult' (see the section on third-party views), and their arguments are referenced, attributed, and, in most cases, countered with other sources that comply with the Misplaced Pages standards. WP:Verifiability says in a nutshell, and I'm quoting directly: "Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source." And not only a source, but a reliable, published source. There are definitions for what that means. And there are policies and guidelines for structuring and organizing a Misplaced Pages article, for writing a lead section, for evaluating and ranking various sources, and so on. You may think something "needs to be in the introduction to this encyclopedia article", but others don't, and they question the transparency and attribution of your claims. Besides, you did not even bother to comment on my elaborate analysis on the 'cultic' discourse. Now, that's not important in itself, and we can certainly stick to discussion on the minimum standards of editing, but somehow I feel you don't really (want to) get my point. You can dig through the Falun Gong arbitration case that was a moment of truth for all of us who've been around for several years. (Keep in mind that Samuel Luo's sockpuppets hadn't been recognized at the time.) This topic is not only controversial, it is also a powerful troll magnet. Trial and error have proven that our only option is strict legalism and methodological stringency. We either play by these rules or don't edit Falun Gong related articles at all. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 22:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone suggested that we needn't compare FG specifically to any particular cults. How about this then: "Falun Gong is a controversial movement. Persecuted by the Chinese government, it is seen by many as an benevolent spiritual movement suffering repression at the hands of an authoritarian regime. Others describe Falun Gong as a manipulative obscurantist cult of a kind common in the West. The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is immediately accused of supporting the Chinese government." Martin Rundkvist (talk) 08:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I just can't believe what I'm seeing, Martin. You keep offering practically the same text over and over again, without any kind of attribution to any valid source - or any source, for that matter. Who are these others describing? Who is immediately accusing? What research do you base these allegations on? Again, Misplaced Pages is not a scrapbook of editors' opinions. It is a tertiary source. You're operating on a highly abstract level, never telling us who says what and where. It seems as if you deliberately disregarded everything I wrote, since I don't want to think that you lack the mental capacity to understand it. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 11:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point quite well, Olaf. I am simply challenging it. Falun Gong's controversial status is common knowledge of a kind not subject to research, comparable to the fact that Britney Spears is a pop singer. Instead of hiding your pro-FG opinions behind a formalistic smoke-screen, please tell us if anything in my suggested addition is factually incorrect. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 12:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Olaf, why is it that you are so concerned with Martins text about what "Others describe" Falung Gong as, when you not only once have complained that "it is seen by many as an benevolent spiritual movement", which is similarily unattributed and occurs only a few words earlier in the very same suggested text. If you request support for such common knowledge as comparisons between Falun Gong and other religius sects, then you should in honesty's name reqest support also for such common knowledge as FG being described as a benevolent spiritualist movement persecuted by an authoritarian regime. And no, since you already critizised such arguments yourself, you cannot simply claim that THAT is common knowledge. PerEdman (talk) 13:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Anything that's challenged in Misplaced Pages requires a valid source. I'm not hiding the fact that I'm pro-FLG -- why, I've been practicing it for over six years, I think it's a very effective cultivation practice, and I am quite familiar with most of the academic research on the subject. Nevertheless, I strive to be fair towards all editors. I have repeatedly removed or edited pro-FLG material that contains weasel words or unreferenced claims. What I'm saying is this: if somebody would actually challenge the statement "Britney Spears is a pop singer", it would certainly require an outside source. We all know that the statement is true. But questions relating to Falun Gong's controversiality are a lot more complicated, and a great deal of academic research has argued that the 'cultic' and 'manipulative' labels imposed by some people are nothing but unscientific, biased, vilifying opinions, not facts, and therefore they have nothing to do with "common knowledge". Now, we can mention the names of people who hold such opinions, and we can state what they have said. That's because "he threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." You still don't seem to have grasped what that means. If I challenge your edit and you don't provide a valid source, the edit can be reverted without further ado. For further reading, check out Misplaced Pages:Avoid weasel words, and then have another look at the addition you've proposed. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 15:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've put something in (with references) that I hope everyone will agree is fair. I'm watching the article. Let's not make an edit war of this. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 17:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Your contribution does not qualify. Let's have a look: "Falun Gong is a controversial organisation". I wasn't able to find the words "controversial organisation" anywhere in the article. You made an obscure statement, even claiming as a fact that Falun Gong is an "organisation", even though there are valid sources that state the opposite. "Persecuted by the Chinese government, it is seen by many as a benevolent spiritual movement suffering repression at the hands of an authoritarian regime. Others describe Falun Gong as a manipulative obscurantist cult of a kind common in the West." Who are the many that see it as a "benevolent spiritual movement"? What about the "others"? James Randi's personal website is not a valid source for Misplaced Pages: "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable." (See also: Misplaced Pages:Sources#Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves) And lastly, "The issue is clouded by the fact that anyone who criticises the movement is usually soon accused of supporting the Chinese government." Who is criticising and where? Saying that "Falun Gong is criticising" is like saying "science has proven". Nothing but abstractions. Which scientist has "proven" and where? Which practitioner of Falun Gong has "criticised" and where? Besides, the words "clouded by the fact" are only meant to suggest and insinuate. Read again: Misplaced Pages:Avoid weasel words. We insist upon precision, attribution, and transparency. No passive voice or bandwagon fallacies. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 17:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

*sigh* Please just act like a grownup, Olaf, OK? I suggest you go and insert some useful material into some other article instead of sabotaging my attempts to improve this one. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 19:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Why Falun Gong is an evil cult and facts

Falun Gong, is banned by Chinese government, many may think that Falun Gong is such a innocent spiritual group which is just another victim of communist, however, in fact, Falun Gong is a cult, totally a cult, and nothing but a cult.

Falun Gong claims that joining and practicing Falun Gong will cure cancer, and other deadly disease

Falun Gong's official website, minghui.org, posted about 2000 cases in Chinese, and around 10 cases in English, claims that practicing Falun Gong will cure cancer instantly.

Falun Gong, again, stated that quitting CCP will cure cancer

This page, written in English, published in Clearwisdom.net (minghui.org english version), told a beautiful story about a women cured her cancer, just by simply quitting CCP.

Falun Gong, attacks anyone criticize it

For example, nytimes, has been attacked by Falun Gong, after they published this article , Falun Gong replied nytimes with these ridiculous articles

Li Hong Zhi, aka Master Li, the founder and cult leader of Falun Gong, said that we are controlled by alien

In this interview with Time , Li said that we, computer users, are all controlled by alien, and the only way to get rip of the alien, is to join Falun Gong.

Li, said that he can cloak, fly, and teleport

In the first edition of <Zhuan Fa Lun>, which is the bible to Falun Gong, there is a biography about Li, saying that Li can cloak since the age of 8, and other abilities, such as fly, telekinesis and teleport, the first edition of <Zhuan Fa Lun> is published in 1994, at that time Falun Gong is still fully legal in China.

So far, according to minghui, Falun Gong is the ultimate universal solution to universe, life, and everything

Falun Gong can be an antivirus software, and can fix a photocopier. Falun Gong can jump start a car's engine, can put off a fire, can save you from a car crash, and can protect eggs from broken. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zixingche (talk • contribs) 19:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

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