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Featured article review

Discussions leading up to the featured article review are contained in Archive 14 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC) &

I'm putting the dead link checker at the top of the page, as it may be needed often: Check external links SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Also putting these at the top for easy access:

• Mar 10 2006 featured version
• Feb 26 2008 pre-revert version

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussions from Feb 26, 2008 - March 20, 2008 have been archived here Archive15. Redthoreau (talk TR 20:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussions from March 20, 2008 - April 2, 2008 have been archived here Archive16. Redthoreau (talk TR 21:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Non-Controversial/Content TO DO list

There are several tasks which the article needs that are non-controversial and basic.

(1) All the books in the Source Notes and References need to have ISBN #'s (most do, but a few don't) ISBN Finder

(2) Format all the dates uniformly by Month/Date/Year using the "Middle endian format" - i.e. (March 5, 1965) (note: no 0 before the 5)+(month name spelled out) = rationale for this format being it is an English version of the article, and this is the accepted dating format for the U.S. (the largest English speaking country).

If any other editors have basic article tasks which are not controversial or content based, please post them below, and if you are an editor who wishes to volunteer to take up one of these tasks ... please let others know, so we don't have editors working on the same thing. Redthoreau (talk TR 04:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Date formatting is done I think, except inside templates and links. When years appear by themselves I've linked them; not sure if I should have. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm planning to do some work on citation formatting, but haven't yet figured out what to do. I need to re-read the FAR, read WP:Citation, and look at some other featured articles. If anyone does know what to do and is willing to explain it to me I would appreciate it, though maybe it's already explained in the FAR somewhere.

I think maybe the notes using ref tags ("Source notes") are supposed to have only very brief information, (page number, author name and year only, perhaps) and full bibliographic info with ISBN for the same publications is supposed to be listed in the other references section ("References"). I've been meaning to check into this but haven't had time yet. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

American versus British spelling: That's funny -- I thought I had seen a comment somewhere that an early version of the article used American spelling, but now I can't find it. Anyway, I suggest we use American spelling, because the U.S. is mentioned a number of times (e.g. the CIA is mentioned), and because the U.S. is geographically close to the countries involved. It's OK with me to use middle-endian dates, too. (Nifty term, "middle-endian" -- I'm not sure I'd heard it before.) --Coppertwig (talk) 22:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion - work on having a policy of no personal attacks allowed on editors working on this article. You will be much more likely to get other editors to help. Mattisse (Talk) 22:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Great suggestion, hopefully it is followed by all. Redthoreau (talk TR 22:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Spelling: I went through the article with my browser which underlines misspelled words. I believe it follows the U.S. spelling convention (anyway, it underlines "honour" but not "honor"). I may have missed seeing some, and I ignored underlined Spanish words, names etc., but the only things I found were "guerillas" spelled with one r, and "advisors". I changed "guerrillas" to two r's in two place to match the way the word is spelled in the rest of the article (two r's also seem to be preferred by my browser and by Wiktionary). I don't know why it underlines "advisors"; Wiktionary says that's the usual U.S. spelling, with "advisers" having a different connotation. --Coppertwig (talk) 22:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I did miss something! "Argentinean". Actually, this seems to be correct. Another spelling is "Argentinian", and another variant is "Argentine". I've checked several dictionaries and done Google searches and have not found a definitive answer. "Argentinian" has about three times as many Google hits as "Argentinean" on a number of different types of searches. However, "Argentinean" may be an American spelling, based on these Google News searches: '"New York" "Argentinean"' 44 hits. '"New York" "Argentinian"' 34 hits. '"London" "Argentinean"' 27 hits. '"London" "Argentinian"' 90 hits. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Someone has just changed "Argentinean" in the lead to "Argentine". I don't know which is better. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Well in Spanish its written Argentino, so "Argentine" its probably closer to this root. - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the info and comment. At least if it's "Argentine", maybe people will be less likely to come along and change "Argentinean" to "Argentinian". We'll see. :-) --Coppertwig (talk) 10:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I concur with Car HQ, and believe that is probably the reason why the new Che Guevara film starring Benicio Del Toro is titled: The Argentine Redthoreau (talk TR 14:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Done/Moved: Everything in this section is either done or listed in the Talk:Che Guevara#Consolidated to-do list. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

"Clarifyme"

In case anyone is interested: In this edit, a "clarifyme" tag is removed from the sentence "Guevara remains a controversial and significant historical figure.". --Coppertwig (talk) 23:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The "clarify me" tag I believe was added in relation to the term "respected", which LingNut changed to "influential" and which I then edited to the synonym "significant" ... since the word "influential is mentioned 2 sentences later. If editors still need “clarification” on that sentence, they can re-add the tag, and I we could talk about it further. Redthoreau (talk TR 01:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation and for the openness to further discussion. I didn't know what the tag was referring to; it sounds as if it's not needed any more. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Addressing BuddingJournalist's comments from FAR

Re BuddingJournalist's comments at the FAR. Note that, as Redthoreau pointed out, many of these comments may be based on an older version of the article that was temporarily reverted to; e.g. perhaps the state of the article at 17:21 28 March 2008 (UTC). Here I'm condensing/paraphrasing/commenting on some of BuddingJournalist's comments. If/when you believe an item on this list has been corrected, I encourage you to mark it in this list as done. When I sign a "done" it may mean I did it myself or that I've verified that it's been done.

• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) re "rough" in intro
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) re family tree
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 01:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)) Re "this statement in a letter": ("perfect myself" quote)

• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) introducing Anderson: Anderson is mentioned only once and is introduced.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "he would have to affiliate himself with the Communist Party of Guatemala." That sentence is not included in the current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "At that point, he turned down a free seat on a flight back to Argentina..." That sentence is not included in the current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) ""It was during this time in June 1955" Redundant prose, no?" The string "during this time in" does not appear in the current version of the article.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) Orphaned quotation mark and English translation of "Major": applies only to older version of article.
• double-check whether wikilinks are needed in places where article assumes reader knowledge.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "Though wishing to push the battlefront forward..." This sentence doesn't appear in the current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "Zoila Rodríguez": Not mentioned in current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "Of note, Che...": Does not appear in current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "It should be stated, however, that the aforementioned José Vilasuso...":Name doesn't appear in current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) ""I am innocent." Reason for italics?": Does not appear in current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 01:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC))) Formatting and linking of dates.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC))Verb tenses

  Perhaps this is OK to keep in present tense: "In his Congo Diary, he cites the incompetence ..." --Coppertwig (talk) 21:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

  Although if so, then why is this in past tense? Maybe better to have both in past tense: "A few weeks later, writing the preface to the diary he kept during the Congo venture, he began ..." --Coppertwig (talk) 21:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

  No, it's good just as is. Present tense indicates something said in an actual publication. Past tense emphasizes the act of writing in the diary at the time. I think I've checked the whole article for verb tenses. --Coppertwig (talk) 16:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "Later, Guevara...": Does not appear in current version.
• "He believed that volunteer work and dedication of workers would drive economic growth and all that was needed was will." BuddingJournalist says "Huh?"
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "Time was also set aside to write several publications." Does not appear in current version.
• Comments on Cuba section (but do they apply to the current version?)
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "Some saw Guevara as the simultaneously glamorous and austere model of that "new man."": Does not appear in current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "arguing that conditions ... were not yet optimal": Does not appear in current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "Guevara previously in August of 1964 laid out why...": Does not appear in current version.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "Although Guevara was thirty-seven at the time and had no formal military training..." This paragraph does not appear in current version.
• Congo section should use as ref Piero Gleijeses' seminal Conflicting Missions: Havana, Washington, and Africa, 1959-1976.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "He was a big man..." Does not appear in current version.
• Why are there two separate footnote styles?
• Citations needed:

  • "eclectic reader..." (marked in article as citation-needed)
  • "acquired his ...nickname" (marked in article as citation-needed)
  • done(Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) last half of 4th paragraph in Guatemala (assuming this applies to earlier version of article) Now has a footnote which I assume goes to a relevant reference.
  • etc.?

• Consistency of formatting of references
• Using http://www.geocities.com/madmikehoare/ http://urumelb.tripod.com/che/biografia-del-che-guevara.htm as references, and any other unreliable references
• Image source info e.g. fair use rationale for Der Spiegel.
• done? (Coppertwig (talk) 13:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC)) MOS standards. Spacing around m dashes; hyphens used as n dashes; formatting of currencies

  I think I've got the n-dashes right, with the possible exception of some titles in the references which had hyphens used as n-dashes, which I've changed to n-dashes; possibly should be m-dashes. There are a few m-dashes in the article, with no spaces. n-dashes are not used as punctuation in the text of the article (I think). There are no currencies. There could be other MOS issues I haven't checked, though. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:15, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

• External links: I believe these have been mostly cleaned up, but a link to video in the text still needs to be removed I think ("RealPlayer")
• Consistency of prose style: I believe BuddingJournalist was referring to the older, longer version.
• "Drive-by comment about the Cuba section" by BuddingJournalist at the FAR page (added to list. --Coppertwig (talk) 11:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

End of list of BuddingJournalists' comments as condensed/paraphrased and commented on by me. --Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

• Great Job with the summary. I agree with all of the changes you have made so far, and keep up the good work. Redthoreau (talk TR 20:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

  Thanks. :-) Actually, all or almost all of the things I marked "done" above had already been done; I didn't do them. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone have access to Gleijeses book?

BuddingJournalist seems insistent that the Cuba section should use this book as a reference: Piero Gleijeses' Conflicting Missions: Havana, Washington, and Africa, 1959-1976. Does anyone have it? If not, I might order it through a second-hand bookstore. --Coppertwig (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I've ordered a copy of this book. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Addressing Ling.Nut's comments from FAR

Here's a list of Ling.Nut's comments, condensed, paraphrased and commented on by me. The original comments by Ling.Nut are at 14:44, 24 February 2008 plus many comments at Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Che Guevara between 13:28 29 March 2008 (UTC) and 06:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC). I encourage people to mark things in this list as done if/when they are. When I sign things as done, I may have either done them myself or verified that they've been done.

• Lead needs to be a summary of the article
• Lead needs to mention controversy
• Remove hagiographic tone of article to conform with NPOV
• Give increased prominence to mention of controversy; reader should not be able to tell what POV writers have
• done (Coppertwig (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "Easter egg" wikilinks (I believe I've fixed these; see discussion in Analysis of wikilinks section of this talk page.)
• done (Coppertwig (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) should perhaps say "neo-colonialism" rather than "colonialism".
• "The justification for the execution of torturers and other brutal criminals of the Batista regime." NPOV problem. Now says "Guevara was charged with purging the Batista army and consolidating victory by exacting "revolutionary justice" against traitors, chivatos, and Batista's war criminals. Serving in the post as "supreme prosecutor" on the appellate bench, Guevara oversaw the trials and executions of those convicted by revolutionary tribunal. The justification for the executions was the hope of preventing the people themselves from taking justice into their own hands, as happened during the chaos of the anti-Machado rebellion"
• done (Coppertwig (talk) 01:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)) ".in Guatemala so as to perfect himself." questions use of the phrase "perfect himself." This may be addressed by my suggestion in the section above, presenting it as a quote.
• redundancy in lead: "author", photo each mentioned twice, maybe other things. Can be condensed.
• "disciplined brutality" oxymoron and NPOV problem
• done (Coppertwig (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)) "as everything from a 'saint'to a 'butcher'" No longer in article.
• broken link: online at stockholm spectator; also check for other broken links
• "It is also said that he memorized..." citation needed.
• '"became known for his radical perspective even as a boy, idolizing Francisco Pizarro..." Poor word choice, since "radical" implies "political".. was Pizarro radical? Had Pizarro read Saul Alinksy, perhaps?' (This is exact quote of Ling.Nut's comment.)
• Check different sources for account of last words, e.g. Mallin, Jay (1968) as cited in comment by Ling.Nut
• Check FrontPage re several thousand executions
• Verify or disprove several claims by FrontPage magazine
• More on role of Herbert Matthews and American press

End of list of Ling.Nut's comments from FAR as condensed/paraphrased/commented on by me. --Coppertwig (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Citation style

Here's the reformatting of references I'm planning to do. Let me know if there are any objections.

Currently we have "Content notes", "Source notes" and "References" sections. This plan involves the second two of these.

Plan: Make the "Source notes" section into a list of short references (just author, year and page number, unless more info is needed to distinguish two similar sources), and list complete bibliographic information in the "References" section. Remove the tag at the top of the "Source notes" section which asks for ISBN numbers; perhaps move it to the "References" section or just delete it. Make links from the notes in the Source notes to the items in References as described at Misplaced Pages:Citing sources/Further considerations#Wikilinks to full references.

Therefore, within the text of the article, material within <ref></ref> tags will be just author, year, and page number (unlsss...), along with a code for linking it. People adding new references should then follow this format (making sure the full info on the reference is in the References section.)

I believe this plan is consistent with SandyGeorgia's message of Feb. 27, and with Misplaced Pages:Citing sources#Shortened notes. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:37, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment. Redthoreau (talk TR 20:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

See also Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 15#Cite.php. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

e.g. "Miller 2005, p.23." (From Shortened notes link.) --Coppertwig (talk) 12:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

For convenience, when the author's name is spelled with accents, I spell the cite id without accents, e.g. "<cite id=refPena2004>Peña, Emilio Herasme ..." --Coppertwig (talk) 00:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

About there being two types of footnotes: There were also two types of footnotes when the article was originally approved as a featured article. I would be open to discussing changing the footnote style, but I would like to point out that there are advantages to having two types of footnotes. I've seen at least one book with more than one type of superscript-indicated note used for different purposes.

With the use of cref and shortened ref notes, the wikitext remains uncluttered. The ref notes have the advantages that the superscript is small and unobtrusive and that there is a wikilink not only down into the footnote but also back up into the text, which can be useful for various purposes: one might start from the footnote and try to find where in the text it's used. Having two different types of footnotes serves the reader by letting the reader know what type of information is to be obtained. If the reader wants to know the reference for verification, the reader can click on the numbered footnotes, and if the reader wants additional information, the reader can click on the named footnotes. It saves the reader time and frustration to know before clicking which type of information will be seen.

SandyGeorgia, in reply to your edit summary "one of the messiest articles I've seen on Wiki, don't small the refs twice, they become illegible, something should be done about these notes": Note that I'm in the process of reformatting the references as described in this section. I haven't gotten very far yet -- I only started approximately a day ago. I'm open to specific suggestions about how to do it. I'd appreciate it if you would specify what you mean by "messy" in your edit summary so that we can do something to address the problem. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I propose that citations be formatted as follows. It's similar to the way most are already formatted, but requires moving the year to immediately after the author's name, where I think it's easier to find, and also changing the use of italics (and bold for the volume number, and possibly other details) in the case of articles. Currently, the year is usually given near the end, just before the ISBN number. Also, adding a period after the ISBN number. These examples are from Misplaced Pages:Citing sources/example style; the first is for a book, the second for a journal article (or chapter of a book etc. would be similar).

• Lincoln, Abraham; Grant, U. S.; & Davis, Jefferson (1861). Resolving Family Differences Peacefully (3rd ed.). Gettysburg: Printing Press. ISBN 0-12-345678-9.
• Brandybuck, Meriadoc (1955). "Herb lore of the Shire". Journal of the Royal Institute of Chemistry 10(2), 234–351.

--Coppertwig (talk) 11:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Although yes the article needs common formatting, in my opinion it is clearly not the "messiest" article on wikipedia as SandyGeorgia contends ... and to declare it that, I would contend is exaggeratory hyperbole and non constructive negativity ... especially when given in a "drive by" fashion without suggestions for correction.       Redthoreau (talk TR 14:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I propose that when references are given within the content notes, that they be formatted like this: (], p. 26.) (For an example, see the source note I just created called "perfeccionaré".) This is so that the reference will jump immediately down into the References section. If <ref> tags are used, then once the wikilinks into References are added, the reader would have to make 3 jumps, through all 3 footnote sections, to find out what the source is; I think that's too much.

I furthermore propose that the Content Notes be put into alphabetical order. Currently they seem to be approximately in the order they appear in the text. I think it would be much easier to maintain them in a correct order if they were alphabetical. It may also (arguably) be easier for the reader to find a given note in the list if they're alphabetical.

I would appreciate comments on the above proposals. In particular, if anyone objects to any of the format changes I suggest above, please say so. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I trust your judgment on formatting matters and think it sounds good.       Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 01:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggested changes

• done(Coppertwig (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)) Deleting "despite his handicap" because the same idea already occurs in the previous sentence.
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)) "and wore a "weekly shirt", something he was proud of." Shorten to "and proudly wore a "weekly shirt"" or possibly "and was proud to wear a "weekly shirt"".
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)) "Guevara took notes during this trip and wrote an account using extracts from his notes entitled The Motorcycle Diaries. " shorten to "Guevara used notes taken during this trip to write an account entitled The Motorcycle Diaries. "
• moved to consolidated to-do list. Coppertwig (talk) 22:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC) Could perhaps use Cormier 1997, p. 80 as citation for acquiring nickname, though an English-language source would be preferable. (Quote is in collapse box below)

--Coppertwig (talk) 17:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• done(Coppertwig (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)) The name "Castro" appears 3 times in this sentence. (Not that I'm not the one responsible for that! :-) I suggest deleting "with Castro" (i.e. the 2nd occurrence of the name). "With the group withdrawn to the Sierra, the world wondered whether Castro was alive or dead until the famous Herbert Matthews interview with Castro appeared in the New York Times in early 1957, presenting a lasting, almost mythical image for Castro."
• done(Coppertwig (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)) Figure out how to format "(July 15 - 27)". Link? Spaces around hyphen?

  I didn't find day ranges in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), but they do year ranges with an n-dash and no spaces, so I guess the day range is the same. I guess I won't link it: autoformatting probably wouldn't work in this case. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

• done(Coppertwig (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)) Figure out correct grammar for "United States who was"--Coppertwig (talk) 18:29, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
• done (Coppertwig (talk) 12:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)) Question: Re date of death, it says something happened on Oct. 7, then it says "the next day," seeming to perhaps imply he was executed on Oct. 8, but the infobox says Oct. 9. --Coppertwig (talk) 21:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC) I verified it in Anderson (pp. 732–733) and modified the wording to make the dates of capture and execution clear. Not easy, because it's not clear on which date the action of "encircling" occurred. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
• is OK as-is(Coppertwig (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)) "Argentine police": why is "Argentine" used here, but "Argentinean" in the first sentence of the article? Maybe there's a subtle difference in meaning, since the police are not an individual, and the -ean or -ian ending tends to imply an individual. May be OK. Approx Google hits: "Argentine police" 8000, "Argentinean police" 1000, "Argentinian police" 1400.
• is OK as-is(Coppertwig (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2008 (UTC)) "It also records the rift between Guevara and the Bolivian Communist Party that resulted in Guevara having significantly fewer soldiers than originally expected and shows that Guevara had a great deal of difficulty recruiting from the local populace, due in part to the fact that the guerrilla group had learned Quechua, unaware that the local language was actually Tupí-Guaraní." —can be reworked to— "It also explains Guevara having significantly fewer soldiers than originally expected because of a rift between Guevara and the Bolivian Communist Party and because of great difficulty recruiting from the local populace, due in part to the fact that the guerrilla group had learned Quechua, unaware that the local language was actually Tupí-Guaraní." Not sure which is better. --Coppertwig (talk) 21:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
• done (Coppertwig (talk) 12:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)) "by youth and leftist inspired movements throughout the world" is ambiguous. Depending on meaning, change to either "by youth and by leftist-inspired movements throughout the world" or "by youth- and leftist-inspired movements throughout the world" or "by leftist-inspired and youth movements throughout the world". (3 possible meanings: by youth, or by youth-inspired movements or by youth movements. I suggest youth movements, i.e. the 3rd suggested wording.) --Coppertwig (talk) 23:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC) These words no longer appear in the article. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
• Question: Who is Ernesto Guevara Lynch? Same person as Che or different? There's a publication by this person in the references list. Is it actually used in the article? --Coppertwig (talk) 00:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Answer: Che's Father Redthoreau (talk TR 00:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer; but it's still a little confusing. That's the reference for the quote where he says he'll "perfect self". I guess his father quotes him? That needs to be made more clear. I'll try to do that. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The "perfect" himself, was written in a letter from Guevara to his parents (which was probably republished in the fathers book). Throughout his life Che was a prolific letter writer, and a great deal of information about him, comes from letters written from him to his parents/family. Most are contained in the book "Self Portrait" listed in his authored works (which is a great book of insight to his personal thought).       Redthoreau (talk TR 14:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, for now I have it saying "Che's father quotes him, ..." which I think is good enough but if someone finds a reference (or checks the reference listed) we may be able to word it a little more specifically. --Coppertwig (talk) 22:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Done/Moved: Everything in this section is either done or listed in the Talk:Che Guevara#Consolidated to-do list. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Analysis of wikilinks

Continuation of discussion from Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 16#Analysis of wikilinks.

• I decided to leave all the links to Castro after all. Same for Bolivia. They're in logical places, no more than one in a section etc. (except maybe we don't need a link to Bolivia from both the lead and the infobox).
• Cuba: there had been no link to Cuba from the Cuba section! I fixed that, and removed two links to Cuba from the Congo section.
• 26th of July movement: I suggest either using the abbreviation every time except the first occurrence, or not using the abbreviation at all. When this change is made, I suggest removing one more wikilink so the Cuba section has only one wikilink to this movement. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

  I suggest that it be referred to as "26th of July movement" throughout, in order to be consistent with the Misplaced Pages article 26th of July movement, and arguably supported by Misplaced Pages:Manual of style#Acronyms and abbreviations "Do not use unwarranted abbreviations" section. Anderson uses "July 26 Movement". Approximate Google hits: "M-26-7" 90,000; "26th of July movement" 20,000; "July 26 movement" 4000; "July 26th movement" 3500; "26 of July movement" 900. However, some of the "M-26-7" hits don't seem to be directly relevant, e.g. the abbreviation being used as (part or all of) a username.

• Actually, 4 links to Alberto Korda look OK.
• I removed one of 2 links from the lead to Che Guevara (photo), and removed the link from "symbol".
• Sierra is a disambiguation page. I removed the link. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:12, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I went through the multiple links listed at User:Coppertwig/Sandbox7 (2nd section) and reduced the number of links of those I thought needed to be reduced. Mostly I didn't reduce them as far as the numbers I'd originally suggested; seeing their context in the article I decided to leave many in. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Done/Moved: Everything in this section is either done or listed in the Talk:Che Guevara#Consolidated to-do list. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts on Timeline?

What are other editor’s opinions on the inclusion of the Timeline picture? I remember User:Polaris999 had told me that he created it for the article in hopes it would improve its FA status, but I have yet to see Timelines in very many articles of featured historical figures. I believe that the amount of space it takes up, might not equate to it's informational value, but would be hesitant to remove it without consulting other editors, and because of the fact that User:Polaris999 (an editor I have great respect for) included it. Redthoreau (talk TR 01:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I see that the timeline is in a collapsible box, but with default of not-collapsed. How about just making the default collapsed? Then it would hardly take up any space and people would only see it if they clicked "show".

Is there any way to make the font larger in the timeline? I can hardly read it. It would be nice to be able to control the font size. I can control the font size of the text of the article using my browser, but the font of the timeline stays the same. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that idea of the collapse. Unfortunately I think the image is set as is in size. There is always the option as well of an updated Timeline, which I would be willing to create. Redthoreau (talk TR 03:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. I consulted Misplaced Pages:NavFrame to figure out how. It says NavFrame has been deprecated in favour of collapsible tables. I don't know how to convert to collapsible tables (I tried; it didn't work) or whether it's possible to do that for a timeline. I can't find documentation on how to do the timeline. The wording itself can be easily edited, but I don't know how to change the font size. Don't worry too much about the font size -- I suppose maybe it's OK for most people, and I can manage. --Coppertwig (talk) 11:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Broken links

• Radio Cadena Agramonte, "Ataque al cuartel del Bayamo" Online, accessed February 25, 2006
• Cuban Information Archives, "La Coubre explodes in Havana 1960." Online, accessed February 26, 2006; pictures can be seen at Cuban site fotospl.com.
• Ernesto Che Guevara, "English Translation of Complete Text of Algiers Speech", Online at Sozialistische Klassiker, accessed January 4, 2006.
• Ernesto Che Guevara, "Che Guevara's Farewell Letter", 1965. English translation of complete text: Che Guevara's Farewell Letter at Wikisource.
• Michael Moynihan, "Neutering Sartre at Dagens Nyheter". Online at Stockholm Spectator. Accessed February 26, 2006.
• Peña, Emilio Herasme. La Expedición Armada de junio de 1959, Listín Diario, (Dominican Republic), June 14, 2004.

--Coppertwig (talk) 22:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC) I'm removing this broken link from the Moynihan reference. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 12:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

List of to-do lists

• done or moved Non-Controversial/Content TO DO list (All items have been either done or moved to Consolidated to-do list) (Coppertwig (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC))
• Addressing BuddingJournalist's comments from FAR
• Addressing Ling.Nut's comments from FAR
• Done. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC) Analysis of wikilinks
• Reformatting citations as described at Citation style Now listed in "Summary of (proposed) changes to citation style" (Coppertwig (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC))
• done or moved (Coppertwig (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)) Suggested changes
• Broken links
• Summary of (proposed) changes to citation style (Coppertwig (talk) 12:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC))
• Consolidated to-do list (Coppertwig (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC))

--Coppertwig (talk) 11:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Turning out very nicely File:Smiley-big.png

Just wanted to add my contention, that the article is coming out very nicely, and becoming vastly improved from even a shirt time ago, mostly thanks to the organizational skill and direction from Coppertwig. Let's keep it up. Redthoreau (talk TR 23:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, but don't underrate the contribution from yourself, who are vastly more knowledgeable on the subject than I. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Is Neutrality still in dispute?, viability of Tag

When the Neutrality tag was placed on the article, it was 3 months ago, when the article was twice the size, and before thousands of edits (by numerous collaborating editors). Also the neutrality tag was NOT part of the FAR process, but separate and came later. Do editors still have doubts about the article's neutrality in its current state as of APRIL 6, 2008? If so, what are they? (And please be specific, so we can address them). If not ... then I believe the tag could be removed. Redthoreau (talk TR 00:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

At this point in time, I'm not taking a position as to whether the tag should or should not be there. I may change my position at some point. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

• According to Wiki template tag policy,

Misplaced Pages:Dispute templates They should normally not be used without a clear description from the applying editor of the rationale, preferably presented in a numbered list form in a separate section which includes the template name. As these items are dealt with, it is suggested each line be struck through. Some guidance should be given by the posting editor as to what action will resolve the matter when using section and article (page) tagging templates.

Being that no editors have mentioned further neutrality concerns, I am going to remove the POV tag. IF an editor believes that it should be reinstated, then feel free to do so, and include a list of concerns to address, as the aforementioned policy guideline suggests. Redthoreau (talk TR 23:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

References removed from article

I removed the following reference(s) from the article:

• Digital Granma Internacional, "Simultaneous chess game on 37th anniversary of Che’s death", October 13, 2004. Online at Granma International English Edition, accessed January 5, 2006.

  (Maybe more relevant in the Legacy article.) --Coppertwig (talk) 12:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The following references don't seem to appear in the current version of the article, though they were there earlier:

• O'Donnell, Pacho (2005). Che (Ensayo). Debolsillo. pp. p. 149. ISBN 030-727369-7. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Check |isbn= value: checksum (help); Text "location" ignored (help)</ref>
• March, Aleida. "SURPRISE ATTACK AT ALTOS DE ESPINOSA". www.marxists.org. Retrieved 2008-04-01.

☺Coppertwig (talk) 01:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Copyvio

The following reference was added April 1. The same publication is already listed in the References section, with no web link. I see no reason to think the website is not violating copyright, in which case we should not link to it.

• Guevara, Ernesto Che. "Ernesto Che Guevara, Episodes of the Revolutionary War – Attack on Bueycito". chehasta.narod.ru. Retrieved 2008-04-01.

--Coppertwig (talk) 12:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. I took it out, maybe a day or two ago. --Coppertwig (talk) 22:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've just taken this one out for similar reasons, Online at Sozialistische Klassiker (was given as link for English translation of Guevara's Algiers speech); possibly copyvio, plus the link goes to some sort of home page and it's not immediately obvious to me how to find the desired text. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:51, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This link has been deleted from Wikisource as a copyvio, so I'm removing the link here: English translation of complete text: Che Guevara's Farewell Letter at Wikisource. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 01:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whether this link is a copyvio, so I'm removing the link. (Diario del Che en Bolivia.) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 12:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Flag in infobox

Ok, just to explain why I removed the Cuban flag from the infobox, while Che was a dual-citizen he had no other direct relation to Cuba, that being linked by birth or ethnicity, the tendency troughout Misplaced Pages has been completely removing flags from the infobox, but for now I am following the one we had prior to that with dual-citizens wich was to only use the one from the nation of birth or in some cases the ethinicity when the person was born in a country by a matter of chance. - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I concede to your rationale, and appreciate your explanation. Thanks. Redthoreau (talk TR 06:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Font Size for References?

As it stands now: Alarcón Ramírez, Dariel dit "Benigno". Le Che en Bolivie. Éditions du Rocher, 1997. ISBN 2-268-02437-7

As I think it should be: Alarcón Ramírez, Dariel dit "Benigno". Le Che en Bolivie. Éditions du Rocher, 1997. ISBN 2-268-02437-7

However, SandyGeorgia has stated that the latter is "too small" to read. I have looked for information on official wikipedia font sizing ... but have been unsuccessful. Can anyone provide me with that? Or do other editors have an opinion on the reference font size? To me the smaller is preferable and still legible, but I am willing to be swayed / and willing to relent to concensus.       Redthoreau (talk TR 16:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Information: I sometimes use control-shift-+ on my browser, repeated once or twice, to make the font larger so that I can read it easily. This is particularly useful when proofreading: very large letters make it easier to see spelling mistakes, punctuation, etc., IME. This is not an endorsement of any particular font size in the references. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:23, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Summary of (proposed) changes to citation style

Changes already in progress, based on consensus:

• Convert Source notes into shortened notes in style "Miller 2005, p.23."
• Have autowikilinks from the Source notes to the References

Further proposed changes; comments welcome:

• Format references according to examples for books and articles in Misplaced Pages:Citing sources/example style:

  • Put year in parentheses immediately after author
  • Article title in plain text in quotation marks; journal title in italics
  • Bold type for journal volume
  • Period at the end (usually after ISBN #)
  • Possibly other details of punctuation etc.

• Put Content notes into alphabetical order
• References within content notes: format them as links directly to References section, as is done within the shortened notes

--Coppertwig (talk) 11:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC) Redthoreau had already indicated acceptance of the above suggestions. Further suggestion:

• After I've finished converting the Source notes into shortened notes, I suggest that the code for the Source notes be changed to from {{reflist|2}} to {{reflist|colwidth=20em}}. The latter allows the number of columns to be set on-the-fly depending on the width of the window in which the page is displayed. See Template:reflist.

☺Coppertwig (talk) 12:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Consolidated to-do list

This is not a replacement for List of to-do lists. This is for collecting the few items not done out of some other to-do lists, so that the original to-do lists can be archived.

• 26th of July Movement (whether to use abbreviation or not)
• Reference for nickname (Use Cormier?)
• ISBN numbers for all books

--Coppertwig (talk) 13:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Object to removal of POV tag

The objections listed in the open FAR have not been addressed. They are not crossed off as done. This article is still in Featured Article Review and the main overwhelming complaint was POV issues. I do not see that they have been taken care of. No one is paying attention in FAR as the impression is that others are not allowed to edit this article. –Mattisse (Talk) 20:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Your objection is noted. (1) FAR was notified and asked if there were further objections in relation to Neutrality ? They weighed in with their silence. (2) The POV tag was not part of the FAR process and was applied separately. Also POV tags are not part of FAR review. At the time of the POV concerns 3 months ago, the article was more that twice the size it is now, and hundreds if not thousands of edits have taken place since (including dozens if not hundreds by yourself). (3) As I state above ... if an editor has future POV concerns ... there is a process of going about that. Any editor can list their "specific" neutrality concerns and suggestions of how they would like them addressed. If those go unaddressed ... then any editor can include a tag disputing neutrality. (4) This article is constantly being improved every day and the concerns of FAR are being addressed specifically (see the numerous lists) which Coppertwig has painstakingly ordered). Any editor is free to assist, including you, as there are still issues that need to be completed. (5) If you want to be a part of the editing process, then I encourage you to stick around. It is not productive to announce your complete departure numerous times and then reappear and make requests or have doubts about edits which have taken place. Thanks.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 21:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back to the Che Guevara article, Mattisse. I'm delighted to see you posting here.

It would be helpful if you would list some specific POV concerns, the way you listed specific concerns at Talk:The Motorcycle Diaries; or else if you would tell us where exactly to find specific concerns that have been listed by others (or that have been listed earlier by yourself) that you feel are a reason to have the POV tag on the article. --Coppertwig (talk) 22:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not allowed to edit this article as you well know. You can tell by the tone of the article's editor above (as well as his behavior when I edited another on of his articles) that nothing has changed. I suggest you cross off the complaints on the FAR page, one by one, and list them as done there. That is the usual procedure. Then each editor who listed an objection can weight in and be given a chance to change his vote from Oppose to Support. –Mattisse (Talk) 22:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Mattisse, I am going to request that you desist from the constant accusation that I am "not letting" you edit the article. You left the article on your own free will, and upon Coppertwig requesting you to return you told him "NO". I have no power to ban you or keep you from editing. We are all Equal ... and I resent your constant aspersion that I am preventing you from editing ... which I am not. The only times I have even edited any of your contributions have been on occasions when you become angry and tendentiously Disrupt to make a point. I know that you have many talents to offer this article and others ... and I know that you have the ability to be a very productive editor as I have seen on other articles ... It is and will continue to be my hope that you will apply those talents in a productive & collaborative effort on this article if you so choose.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 23:17, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You're free to edit the article, Mattisse, and you're also free to suggest changes on the talk page. I will try to help protect your freedom to edit on an equal standing with other editors and without being attacked. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Procedure for FAR

• The procedure for FAR is that you are supposed to cross off each objection on the FAR page as it is fixed. The reviewer is directed to look now and then at FAR and see if his objections have been addressed so that he may change his Oppose vote to Support. I do not see that procedure being followed. The reviewers are probably unaware of any changes. Editors are busy. No one is going to look through the article to see if his points have been addressed there. Silence from FAR, in my experience, derives from a lack of interest. Unless each Oppose is withdrawn, or unless there are an overwhelming number of Supports this article is on the track of losing its star. And the author's opinion does not count in FAR, unless he can refute point by point the objections and his refutations are accepted.

In the spirit of humor ...

The following is policy on the English Misplaced Pages, and according to Jimbo Wales, it "always has been." Ignore all rules was Misplaced Pages's first rule to consider.

Shortcuts WP:IAR WP:IGNORE

   Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 23:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• The original nomination for FAR did not contain a complaint about POV. That was originally brought up by SandyGeorgia and echoed by other editors. When SandyGeorgia backed out of the proposed revert, she said to just place a POV and cleanup tag on the article and let it go. As far as I know, she has not modified her view. –Mattisse (Talk) 22:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Tags are not meant to be "placed to then let them go". They are supposed to be accompanied with a list of concerns related to the tag. As of late she has not responded to any of my questions and I think that you should let her speak for herself. Also updates have been noted on the FAR page ... every editor who is on the FAR list would have received notification of me posting a request related to neutrality ... if they did not bother to read it there ... then what makes you think they would bother to read Coppertwigs updates? Right now this article is larger than just "the star" ... it is about creating the best article possible ... and I believe Coppertwig, myself, and hopefully others (even yourself if committed) will continue to do that.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 23:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

One of the reviewers at FAR has withdrawn their oppose vote. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

This is a great development ! and gives me motivation to continue. Keep up your great work Coppertwig.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 19:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Too similar to wording of source

This section is taken almost word-for-word from the source and, if kept, needs to be rewritten or presented as a quote: " He called for the diversification of the Cuban economy, and for the elimination of material incentives. He believed that volunteer work and dedication of workers would drive economic growth and that all that was needed was will. To display this, Guevara led by example, working endlessly at his ministry job, in construction, and even cutting sugar cane, as did Castro." Source given is ; see the part of that source under the section heading "Popular but ineffective". --☺Coppertwig (talk) 12:29, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

It shouldn't be that difficult to switch up some of the wording or use quotes. Would you like to do that or should I ?    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 19:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would do it. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Done.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 02:13, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I like how you took quotes from other sources. I've edited the punctuation, including indicating that the last few words about sugar cane are still a quote. --☺Coppertwig (talk) 10:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

All citation needed tags taken care of

Today I took care of the 4 remaining citation needed tags. None of them remain at this time.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 22:50, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Yay!!! Well done! That took extensive knowledge as well as time and effort. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:38, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Mattisse had asked for a ref for him getting his nickname. I just put in Cormier for that. (See quote in "Suggested changes" section above.) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Mattisse had also asked for a ref for most of the 82 being killed. I changed the text and put in Anderson p. 213 as a ref. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Still need a more complete ref for Ley de la Sierra. (It just says "Ley penal de Cuba en armas, 1959".) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I added it into the main body of the text.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 06:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, but if the Treto reference supports what's said inside the Content note, then I think it would be more useful to put the reference in the Content note. I can format it if you confirm that it would be an appropriate location for it. Otherwise, the material within the Content note is still not really fully referenced. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 12:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Poor quality sources

These ones were commented out in the wikitext. I'm removing them. (About.com and geocities: not reliable sources.)

• Boddy-Evans, Alistair. "Che Guevara's Exploits in the Congo". African History Blog. December 14, 2005. Accessed January 5, 2006.
• Mad Mike Hoare Site, "Mad Mike". Online at Geocities.com, accessed January 5, 2006.

☺Coppertwig (talk) 01:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, not appropriate for the article.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 01:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

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