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/Archive 1 /Archive 2 /Archive 3 /Archive 4 /Archive 5 /Archive 6 Talk:Truth/insults?
Old discussions moved to /Archive 6
Variation
Banno, I propose altering the last two sentences in the new first paragraph to something like these three sentences:
- Truth is sought in religion, philosophy, mathematics, law, and science; these fields use different methods and seek truth in order to serve different goals. Not surprisingly, using a single word in all fields is very likely to cause confusion and conflict. Yet truth, like goodness and beauty, is a perennial subject for humankind.
Ancheta Wis 15:01, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- Ancheta, I would be happy for you to make these alterations - your wording is preferable. Thanks. Banno 21:09, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
Systemic bias towards so-called 'revealed tuth'
I take exception to any content including religion in a group of "methods of seeking truth" (where 'truth' is a statement known to describe the actual state of affairs because there is proof). Religion is not known to be a method of seeking truth, religion is known to be a method of convincing people that they ought to abandon logical, scientific investigation and instead just go right ahead and accept the tenets of the particular religion anyway, even though those tenets are not known to be statements accurately describing the actual state of affairs. See the section on "Double Truth" in the article.
Our writing here is supposed to be without bias, and that includes any introductory material in the lead section of an article, but the proposed content, above, that in an offhand way lends credence to the idea of religion as a legitimate method of seeking truth exhibits a bias toward so-called 'revealed truth' that is not acceptable, per Misplaced Pages policy. --67.182.157.6 19:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Structure of the Article
Possibly this was the result of earlier edit warring, but the structure of the article, specifically the positioning of Deflationary Theories, is a little strange. If I understand the article correctly, the Deflationary Theories section is about the rejection of the idea that "2 + 2 = 4 is true" has any more meaning than "2 + 2 = 4". However, this is rejecting an idea which hasn't even been introduced in the article yet: discussions of the sentence "P is true" start in the next section, Formal Definitions. I'd say that the order of the Theories About Truth section ought to be: Formal Definitions, Robust Theories, Deflationary Theories. Even if this re-structuring isn't suitable, there ought to be at least some mention of sentences of the type "P is true" before we start saying "Some philosophers reject the idea that...". Also, as an aside, should there be any discussion about the truth-preserving nature of a logically valid argument? E.g., logical steps such as modus ponus preserve truth from axioms to conclusions. — Asbestos | Talk 21:24, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
- In the same line, there are entire bodies of knowledge which parallel the article, but with a different vocabulary; I have in mind Richard von Mises, Probability, Statistics and Truth ISBN 0486242145 (Wahrscheinlichkeit, Statistik und Wahrheit 1928 Springer) which can be had for less than the cost of a Cafe beverage. Ancheta Wis 00:04, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't the formal definitions section be after the robust and deflationary sections? --Nate Ladd 21:07, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Arbitration
I have commenced arbitration proceedings against DotSix - see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#DotSix Banno 09:11, August 5, 2005 (UTC) ("DotSix" was a casual name, once suggested by said user, but never formally adopted by User:67.182.157.6)
Redirect to true
The term, 'truth' is derivitive of the term, 'true', where 'truth' simply means a statement that is in accord with the actual state of affairs, so it is only natural to redirect 'truth' to 'true'. 67.182.157.6
The minority side argues, "To be fair, my side must get as many reverts as your side, otherwise there is tyranny of the majority." This raises a legitimate issue of Misplaced Pages policy to test here, no matter which side you are on at at the moment (you might be in the minority tomorrow), don't you agree? --172.198.53.3 18:29, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- Stop being an idiot. There's a different between that which is True and that which is a Truth. Stop redirecting a perfectly good longstanding article to another page, and if you must insist it gets moved, then set up a VfD with a suggestion to merge the two articles. Until that point, there's more than enough people that will revert your vandalism without violating the 3RR. --Veratien 18:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- Please read the three revert rule before discussing it any further. Thanks. -- BMIComp (talk, HOWS MY DRIVING) 20:20, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- DotSix, if each "side" had the same number of reverts, then the final say would always go to whichever random troll inserted nonsense into an article, which is, of course, absurd. Personally I'm happy to be part of the tyrannical majority if it means protecting wikipedia from obnoxious trolls. — Asbestos | Talk 10:02, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- I take exception to your implication that my side is solely populated by "random trolls." That is just another ad hominem personal attack/poisoning the well from your side, added to the long list of them. The policy is no personal attacks, limit your comments to CONTENT not ad hominem/poisoning the well personal attacks on the CONTRIBUTORS. You should understand this policy, being an administrator and all, shouldn't you, sir? --207.200.116.133 15:22, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- DotSix, I didn't say your "side" was populated only by random trolls, I made a generalized comment on why it wouldn't make sense for the 3RR rule to consider sides (notice "an article" above). Also, I'm not an administrator. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 15:49, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Giving each side an equal number of reverts, say three each, would definitely put an end to revert battles forever, sir, for the following reason. Let's say, just for the sake of discussion, that the minority side edits something into the article that the majority side does not like, so they call in the troops to rally 'round, and revert it to the last version that looks better from their point of view. Then the minority side would get a revert, and so on, with each side getting an equal number, which is the fair way to do things, isn't it? Now you do the math. The majority would always lose, given a level playing field, so there would have to be a lot more principled negotiation occuring, and there would be no more tyranny of the majority, because the majority could never win a revert battle, and thus control the content of the article by force of numbers as they do now.
I don't mean to sound like I am launching a personal attack, sir, but It appears that your side might have the wrong idea about what the policy is here in Misplaced Pages for the first step in resolving content disputes. It is not "Whichever side can muster the most people get to control the content of an article" (tyranny of the majority) it is principled negotiation in which "BOTH POINTS OF VIEW NEED TO BE INCLUDED to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view (emphasis added):
Principled negotiation is a cooperative process whereby participants try to find a solution which meets the legitimate interests of both parties, which in the context of Misplaced Pages usually involves appropriate mention of all points of view in an article thus improving the quality of the article. Compromising or "splitting the difference" is generally inappropriate if it means departure from generally recognized points of view, both of which need to be included to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view.
- I've heard that, etymologically, truth and true are both derived from "troth", as in, "he plighted his troth," a pledge of fidelity. So, by the sort of impeccable logic offered above, let's redirect everything to marriage. --Christofurio 23:26, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Except that personal fidelity to one's king or one's mate is only one sense of the term, 'true'. The sense we are talking about here is the sense of a statement being in accord with the actual state of affairs, and a truth being understood as a statement in accord with the actual state of affairs. But you already knew that, didn't you?
One can plight one's troth to a belief about the actual state of affairs as plausibly as one can to a mate. Indeed, marriage these days is a "workable hypothesis" for most, that "this time I have found an enduring companion," and that, like a scientific hypothesis, can be embraced as true so long as it confirms with evidence and abandoned later, so that an alternative hypothesis can be embraced. But you already knew that, didn't you? --Christofurio 13:31, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Comment on redirect
- It seems highly atypical of encyclopedias to prefer adjectives over nouns for the titles of their articles. Additionally, the notion that the philosophical subject relating to the concept of "truth" is actually derived from the term "true" seems highly specious. Philosophers do not refer to the "theory of true," they refer to the "theory of truth" (as in Tarski's truth theorem). And to suggest that such conventional use of the term constitutes tyranny of the majority strains the English language, IMO, in the attempt to protect one's arguments from discussion or debate. Misplaced Pages stresses the importance of consensus. Individual editors championing their particular interpretation of terms, advocating an heterodox terminology, run roughshod over the principle of cooperation. This is not about the oppression of minority views, it is about the spirit of cooperation and fair play. Parker Whittle 17:50, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
unsigned reply
Then let's actually DO the fair thing here, as the article on principled negotiation suggests we do, insure that "BOTH POINTS OF VIEW NEED TO BE INCLUDED to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view (emphasis added):
Principled negotiation is a cooperative process whereby participants try to find a solution which meets the legitimate interests of both parties, which in the context of Misplaced Pages usually involves appropriate mention of all points of view in an article thus improving the quality of the article. Compromising or "splitting the difference" is generally inappropriate if it means departure from generally recognized points of view, both of which need to be included to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view.
So it's not about which point of view is most popular, or which side can muster the best turnout for a RfC, or a revert battle, it is about "BOTH POINTS OF VIEW NEED TO BE INCLUDED to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view (emphasis added), Okay?
On another point, you say, Philosophers do not refer to the "theory of true," they refer to the "theory of truth" Now as I am sure you are aware not everyone agrees that truth is a property of statements; not everyone agrees that truth is something (some thing) about which one can have a theory. (See the article.) So what the obscurantists like to label "The redundancy theory of truth" is not really a theory of truth at all, it is just the observation about language that adding the phrase, 'is true' adds nothing at all to any statement like 'Snow is white', it is simply redundant. So, even having an article on "theories of truth" shows a bias toward the point of view that truth is a property of statements, something (some thing) about which one can have a theory. Hence the redirect to the term, 'true', the more basic term meaning (relative to statements) in accord with the actual state of affairs.
response from Parker Whittle
There is another point that applies here, about minority views demanding equal validity:
Please be clear on one thing: the Misplaced Pages neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them qua encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth.
While this specifically refers to pseudoscience, it applies to any minority view. The simple fact is that the vast majority of philosophy courses and philosophers do not find it problematic to refer to the various theories of truth, or to truth as a concept about which philosophers have theories. Therefore, there is little case that can be made for changing the title of the article, or for flouting the well established and non-controversial conventions followed, without difficulty, by the philosophical community. Your particular reading of the deflationist/reductionist can and should be fairly stated and included in the article (if there are suitable references). But it should not be allowed to suppress the standard use of terms among the community of philosophers. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has the following entry on The Deflationary Theory of Truth.
--Parker Whittle 14:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Protected
I have protected the page and waiting for arbitrator opinions on what to do here. See WP:RFAr for the arbitration request going on and also the RFC that was already been filed. Sasquatch↔讲↔看 20:28, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Sasquatch, thank you for protecting the page; we even have a small change to the Introduction in the queue, awaiting our return to the state of happy editing. Ancheta Wis 22:43, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Who wouldn't be happy being able to get away with going contrary to Misplaced Pages policy, concensus building through principled wikipedia:negotiation, and control the content of one of his favorite articles through force of numbers tyranny of the majority?
Lead section
Wow, my "criticism" actually found its way into the lead section.
As the article is curently locked I post a new suggestion for the lead section here.
- A person calls a assertion true, if it agrees with their point of view. Which assertions those are, thus depends on the individual and is subjective. A definition of truth tries to objectively define what is true.
- Frequently truth is first stated as a goal and only after that an exact definition is sought. So when people are arguing about the definition of truth they may be arguing about the goal to which they should aspire. Truth is often associated with religion, philosophy, mathematics, law, or science, yet those fields use different methods and seek different goals. Not surprisingly, using a single word in all these contexts is very likely to cause confusion and conflict.
- Much of this article is about philosophical ideas regarding what sorts of things should be called true, and how truth can be defined. In addition it discusses some particular and peculiar uses of truth.
Markus Schmaus 23:15, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- Markus, a person's own values frequently define what they call true. In that case, a person's "goal" might simply be getting other people to agree with the "truth". Thus it may be important to disambiguate
- the goal of getting others to agree to uphold some value
- the goal of marking a subject of discussion (called in linguistics, the topicalizer)
- the goal of getting others to agree that the proposed topic should be a subject of discussion.
- the goal of getting others to see something in a certain way
- the goal of getting others to define their terms
- the goal of getting others to limit their discussion only to the topic
- etc. As I am only a user of the concepts, I cannot speak, but there must be a survey of these issues somewhere. Ancheta Wis 09:08, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- Isn't it allways the case, that a person's value determine what they call true? And the goals you enumerate are goals of some people. But I don't see what you want to tell me with your post.
- As I stated before I disagree with "Truth is sought in religion, philosophy, mathematics, law, and science". This statements sounds as if all those fields seek the same thing, but that's definitely not the case. At least mathematics and science are seeking distinct goals. A agree, that whatever any of those fields seeks is often called truth. Markus Schmaus 20:47, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Links
Hey there, when peace again reigns over our land of truth, would someone mind adding this to the external links section. I'm systematically going through the SEP and I will probably forget to come back and do this. Thanks in advance! --best, kevin ···Kzollman | Talk··· 05:43, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Begin addition
- Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
End addition
Question for Mr. Whittle and the rest of the majority side
- I took the liberty of removing an almost identical statement of this question, above, and promoted it to its own section, here. There is no offense intended by this, and I'll happily agree to a revert if the author feels it important to have both sections remain. My only intent is to prevent having two almost identical discussions on the same topic. And pardon me if I did so mistakenly. --Parker Whittle 18:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
?So your proposed means of resolving the content dispute here is to let the majority control the content of the article, by force of numbers, and have the administrators on your side just block the IP address of anyone who objects on grounds that does not comport with Misplaced Pages policy, that as the article on principled negotiation suggests we do, insure that "BOTH POINTS OF VIEW NEED TO BE INCLUDED to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view (emphasis added):
Principled negotiation is a cooperative process whereby participants try to find a solution which meets the legitimate interests of both parties, which in the context of Misplaced Pages usually involves appropriate mention of all points of view in an article thus improving the quality of the article. Compromising or "splitting the difference" is generally inappropriate if it means departure from generally recognized points of view, both of which need to be included to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view.
| Dispute resolution (Requests) |
|---|
| Tips |
| Content disputes |
| Conduct disputes |
So the first step in resolving any content dispute (see list at right) is not about which point of view is most popular, is it, it is not about which side can muster the best turnout in a survey, is it, and it is not about which side can control the content of an article by force of numbers in a revert battle, is it, it is about "BOTH POINTS OF VIEW NEED TO BE INCLUDED to achieve Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view (emphasis added) -- the first item on the list of steps in resolving content disputes negotiation, right?
- If you read my complete statement carefully, you will notice that I agree completely that the minority view must be included. I also added additional policy statements the clarify exactly how such minority views should be handled. Do you take issue with the official policy on majority/minority positions? --Parker Whittle 18:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
True?
DotSix claims, that if I say to him, that it is true, that true is not equivalent with corresponding with reality, this tells him, that "true is not equivalent with corresponding with reality" is corresponding with reality? Markus Schmaus 18:51, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- I wonder if Mr. Schmaus would mind parsing that for me, and then explaining in plain English how does adding the phrase, 'is true' to any statement, call it P, add anything to P other than signaling the writer's agreement with the statement itself, which is redundant, since it is perfectly sifficient to simply write statement P without adding the redundant phrase, 'is true'?
- I don't think the point of the article is to debate which philosophical theory of truth is better than the other; but rather to identify the various theories of truth. As such, isn't it pointless to engage in any form of debate around what truth is, or is not? --Parker Whittle 18:56, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- Aren't you and Mr. Schmaus both missing the point that not everyone agrees that 'truth' is the name of some property of propositions — some thing about which one could have a theory? Isn't the belief that truth is a property one can develop a theory about just an illusion caused by the fact that we have the phrase "is true" in our language. Now, most predicates name properties, like "is green," or "is solid," or "is nasty," for example, so it might seem natural to assume that "is true" names a property as well. But, that is not necessarily the case, is it, for as deflationists point out, statements that seem to predicate truth actually do nothing more than signal agreement with the statement itself, so it is perfectly sufficient to simply utter the statement itself alone, without adding the redundant phrase, 'is true'?
- You are stating the deflationist position, as if it is the absolute truth (if I may permitted to use a meaningless term). Either you have come up with a new and novel argument, which, regardless of its truth (there it is again!), constitutes original research, or you have stated an argument published somewhere by some philosophers, which therefore must be cited as such, as one theory of truth (!!!) among many WP:NPOV. --Parker Whittle 05:17, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I am not "stating a poistion," as you assert, I am asking a question. See the Question marks? The question you are evading (see above) is, "Aren't you and those on the majority side all missing the point that not everyone agrees that 'truth' is the name of some property of propositions — some thing about which one could have a theory?" Thus the logic of a redirect to true. See the point of the question?
- The position is embedded in the question, as the alleged fact from which the question is posed. So let me get this straight -- you want to redirect the article to true. The justification for this redirect is the fact that the majority of philosophers refer to theories of truth, and that a minority of philosophers feel that there is no such thing as a theory of truth. But in order to respect the minority view, and since we cannot have two titles for the same article, you want the majority to favor the minority view. Do I have that right? --Parker Whittle 09:49, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
1. Is asking you to show how it is known that truth is a property of statements, something one can have a theory about, a theory of truth, as your side insists? Isn't the reasnable answer no, it is not a theory of truth, it is merely asking you a question about YOUR idea that truth is a property someone can have a theory about?
2. If you are still convinced truth is a property of statements like green or solid are properties of things, then will you, or someone on your side, please explain how it is that is known so that others can check your observations?
- The issue is what to do about an article on the subject of truth, and the various views and theories that surround that topic. If you just want to have a discussion about truth, then there are many forums for that. If you're suggesting a change to the article, then please address the points I raised, above. --Parker Whittle 17:58, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
The article as it stands now, in it's frozen state, outlines what it calls, "theories of truth" as though it is taken for granted that it has been established that truth is a property (like 'green', or 'solid') one can have a theory about. What I am asking one and all interested in genuinely discussing the content of this article how it is known that has been established? Where's the proof? Does anybody reading this want to discuss this issue, or will you all continue to evade it, and post every diversion known to man, including those lame ad hominem personal attacks?
- Where, exactly, is the wording that commits the article to the propositional view? And how would you modify it? On the contrary, the distinction is built into the very structure of the article, where it differentiates the robust and deflationary theories. Read both sections - it is quite explicit. Banno 06:16, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
You neglected to answer the question, didn't you? The question was:
The article ... outlines what it calls, "theories of truth" as though it is taken for granted that it has been established that truth is a property (like 'green', or 'solid') one can have a theory about. How it is known that has been established? Where's the proof? Does anybody reading this want to discuss this issue, or will you all continue to evade it, and post every diversion known to man, including those lame ad hominem personal attacks?
Ad hominem personal attacks deleted
Ad hominem personal attacks by Mr. Ladd, Mr. Banno, Mr. Rhobite, Mr. Wiss, and Mr. Asbestos deleted. In future please follow policy and limit your comments to discussion of the merits of content of Misplaced Pages, not this continuous diversion of yours into discussion of the character or motives of the other contributors.
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