Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MeteorMaker (talk | contribs) at 06:56, 2 January 2009 (→Zionist Entity: corr link). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Reliable Sources for Biographies of Living People

In case you're not watching Talk:Todd Goldman, I invite you to discuss the issue of reliable sources over at User:Superluser/Reliable Sources for Biographies of Living People. Thanks! superluser_tc 2007 July 10, 05:24 (UTC)

The NOR policy does not apply to images

Re. your threat to remove my map of Greater Israel. From WP:NOR: Pictures have enjoyed a broad exception from this policy. If you feel you must go on with this threat, I will meet you at the images for deletion page. Emmanuelm (talk) 17:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if it sounded like a threat. Maps definitely aren't an exception from WP:NOR though. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Judea and Samaria

Please stop removing references to Judea and Samaria from articles. It is considered vandalism. Be sure to review WP:NPOV and provide sufficient reasons for your edits in the edit summary, which in your case is decidedly non-descriptive. -- Ynhockey 22:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, in most cases I'm just reverting changes that have gone unnoticed. Re the validity of the term "Judea and Samaria", you might want to join the discussion on this page. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Without going into the discussion (it looks like I've missed out on most of it, although I read parts right now), it appears that you simply misunderstand what the purpose of using Judea and Samaria is on Misplaced Pages. Here are some points to clarify:

1) Judea (often called Judean Mountains) is the region now mostly on the south of the West Bank. A subset of the Judean Mountains are the Jerusalem Mountains. There is no dispute about this point. Therefore, it does not violate NPOV or anything else to state that a certain locality is within the geographical area called Judea (which means that it's on the southern part of the West Bank). Same goes for Samaria (northern part).

2) Politically, Judea and Samaria is usually referred to as the West Bank outside of Israel, although the relevant Israeli use is not political, but administrative. As long as Israel uses the term 'Judea and Samaria Area' for administrative and statistical purposes, especially for Israeli localities within the area, you cannot discount this term as 'outdated' or whatever. It also does not violate NPOV because, again, it's an administrative term and no claim is made that this is the correct name of the location (see linked article). It is also indeed factual that Israeli localities in the West Bank are within the Judea and Samaria administrative district.

3) The West Bank isn't actually the same as Judea and Samaria, because it includes East Jerusalem, which the administrative district of Judea and Samaria does not (see image).

-- Ynhockey 09:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

1) The term "Judean mountains" may possibly be less disputed, but the article clearly said "the Judea area", which is indeed a nonrecognized toponym outside Israel, and that is what I corrected.

2), 3) "Judea and Samaria", the administrative regions, already have their own article. The names of administrative zones an occupation power chooses to impart on a territory are irrelevant on Misplaced Pages and don't override established place names anyway. I don't recall seeing all mentions of Basra suddenly change into "sector B" when Iraq came under occupation for instance. "Sudetenland" didn't become a universally recognized term either in 1938.

Would it be OK with you to move this section to the relevant article btw? MeteorMaker (talk) 12:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I live outside of Israel and I refer to these locations as Judea and Samaria. David Betesh (talk)

You probably agree that every tiny minority shouldn't have the privilege to override existing terminology with their idiosyncratic terms on Misplaced Pages. :) There is a discussion over at Judea that you might be interested in. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I have made a further change, and I think that you would agree with it and that it best represents the truth from the neutral and far point of view.David Betesh (talk)

Fine with me. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

great. David Betesh

WP:CIV

Please remain WP:CIV in discussions even/especially when in disagreement with others.

• "In case your disagreement is based on factual reasons and not just pure emotion, it would be interesting" MeteorMaker, 13:51, 17 April 2008
• "That is a pretty ludicrous statement. ... I must conclude that you have failed." MeteorMaker, 10:20, 20 April 2008

The cited notes represent an increasing problem and I request that you take a breather when you feel an itch to get personal. Jaakobou 10:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That is good advice for us all. Misplaced Pages:Cool :)

Please re-read the lines that caused you to come here and create this section. You will find that they are not nearly as offensive as your truncated versions may appear. The full context also gives a different picture: in the first case, you had just before responded to a well-sourced refutal of your claims with a suggestion I'm emotion-driven. In the second, you had just before made a remark that not only completely misrepresented what I had said previously, it also accused me of "rejecting every source given on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews", which amounts to an accusation of anti-Semitism.

The non-truncated version of your first quote, which includes an additional (borderline) accusation of anti-Semitism:

Jaakobou: Seeing that you have strong feelings on this matter and others disagree, I'd suggest that you first provide some evidence to support your theory. I'm not sure what type of evidence would work since I find it to be a "Jews and anyone in contact with Israel don't have a say on naming conventions" theory, so I feel you should at least make an effort to persuade with something other than rejection of 'International/World Bank' sources.

MeteorMaker: In case your disagreement is based on factual reasons and not just pure emotion, it would be interesting to hear your objective explanation how the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the Bank of Israel Research Dept, the "Coordinator of Government Operations in Judea-Samaria and the Gaza District", one former consultant for the Israeli government, and (then-)PM Yitzhak Shamir are not affiliated with the Israeli government in any way.

The non-truncated version of your second quote:

Jaakobou: Please work with others rather than reject every source given (above) on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews.

MeteorMaker: Your sources are sort of self-rejecting, if you indeed set out to prove that the term "Judea" is widely used by anybody else than Israelis - and 9 out of 10 turn out to have been written by Israelis. I advise you to not misrepresent my views and try to cast them in an anti-Semitic light btw, that does not reflect well on your credibility and appears uncivil. Now that you have confirmed that the term is used mostly in Israel, could you elaborate on why you advocate replacing a well-established English toponym with it?

Jaakobou: I feel this discussion has lost it's value; Certainly there is a problem if you feel that you've been accused of anti-Semitism as that was not my intention. I and a few other editors disagree with you regarding the interpretation of sources. To clarify, it is my opinion that anything published under "international" or "world", makes the point that it's an 'international' document, regardless if an Israeli or a pro-Israeli (Jew or not) was part of it's writing process.

MeteorMaker: That is a pretty ludicrous statement. Direct quotes by anybody in an "international" document become the accepted "international" view at the instant they're published? Or are you suggesting that verbatim quotes by, say, Yitzhak Shamir (one of your examples) should be censored when printed in a publication by the World Bank? I accept your apology for accusing me of "rejecting every source on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews". Don't confuse "Jews" and "Israelis" again. Should you overcome the feeling that "this discussion has lost its value", you are welcome back to try to support your claim that "Judea" is a valid term outside Israel. Until then, I must conclude that you have failed.

Certainly there is a problem if you feel that you've been verbally abused as that was not my intention. I have stricken out the indicated parts as you requested. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Pardon

I think you may have made some error saying you reverted an edit of mine from 4 May. I couldn't recall making the edit you suggested I've made, and indeed, I can't find making any edits on that date: Jezreel Valley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views).
With respect, Jaakobou 20:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That has been corrected. My deep apologies for any inconvenience, I should have double-checked. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I'm misreading you, but This edit summary feels somewhat combative and judgmental in my opinion (See WP:POOR). I'm only interested in a mention of Mt. Gilboa and the Samaria hills in the geographic layout of the location. Certainly, this is not an out of reach perspective and we can discuss a way to incorporate my desire into the article.

I'm not a geography expert, but I believe certain portions of the Samaria highlands area are within' Israeli territory so I wasn't sure on placing a "XXX , in the West Bank" and I'm fairly certain Mt. Gilboa is not considered in the west bank, but I'm open to be corrected on that one.

In general, I'm open to suggestions that satisfy my interest on this one.

With respect, Jaakobou 05:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The northern slope of Mt Gilboa is in Israel according to the coordinates given, while the peak seems to be on the Palestinian side of the border. Depending on the definition, a minor part of the "Samarian highlands" may be in Israel proper, but no amount of discussing will change the fact that the overwhelming part is in the West Bank. If I sounded somewhat combative and judgmental pointing that out, I apologize. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to make the argument that the Samaria highlands are not in the West Bank, I simply wasn't sure on how to phrase the text and assumed you'll possibly correct it rather than revert. Anyways, I'm open to suggestions on this. Jaakobou 06:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I did correct it rather than revert and incorporated the factually accurate part of your change, though the line may need another revision now that we have established that Mt Gilboa lies on the border, with the peak inside Palestinian territory. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

On the location of Thapsacus

Hi MeteorMaker.

Regarding you pushing my article to the talk page. Well it was my first attempt at a major updating of a Misplaced Pages article. I observed that the original article was so out of date that it needed major reforms. I tried to update this page with information that was more up to date. I notice you have kept some of my points but have restored most of the passages I tried to update. I observe that you say I am pushing "a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus" and that you have merged my points "minus the unsourced claims". Well let's compare these two statements alongside a passage your restored. Take the first paragraph under Location, bit by bit.

Where does this material come from? It's not referenced. Who said it was 100 miles north-east of Tadmor? Name one ancient source that can verify this statement. Who said it is the modern town of Deir? (I suppose they mean modern Dayr az Zawr). Anyone with geographic sense would immediately see the impossibility of it being anywhere near ancient Thapsacus. Name one modern historian who would even support such a claim. And who "now assumed" it to be at Suriyah? Where is the reference?

What does some town near Shechem have to do with a town on the Euphrates? Why is this article even quoting a 1897 source which is saying something totally unrelated to the Euphrates' Thapsacus? And who says it is unlikely? Is not this the author of the article giving his own unverified comment.

At last a reference to a location, even if only a tertiary source. And guess what, they get it right. But does this satisfy the author of the article? No, his bias will not allow him to accept this. So he adds his own un-referenced opinion, totally going against the plain reading of Pliny 5.21 (a reference you removed) who says of Carchemish, under its later name of Europus, "Europus formerly Thapsacus".

Well a second reference and surprise it gets it almost correct (when it says "near Carchemish"). But why is this source being quoted at all? It has nothing to do with the location of Thapsacus. It only mentions it, in passing, as a place through which Alexander marched on his way to Gaugamela.

So, on your criticism.

Am I "pushing a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus"? Maybe I am when compared to the 100+ year old sources the article likes to quote, but not amongst modern scholars who have the benefit of a 100 years of new archaeological discoveries. Again look at the references in the above paragraph that you restored - even these say or hint at Carchemish. I am not the one who is pushing a minority view. It is clearly the author of the article who is pushing his POV.

Do I make "unsourced claims"? Are you are trying to compare me with the numerous unsourced claims in your restored paragraph? Have another look at the mass of references I gave. All the ancient sources were quoted and citied. Most of the modern citations were from academic journals in the field of ancient history.

Joe Baker (talk) 11:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Joe, congratulations on an ambitious rewrite, and far be it from me to try to stifle your enthusiam. As you know, everything on Misplaced Pages needs to conform to Wkikpedia verifiability rules. Rather than disgrace your text with a bunch of ugly tags, I just parked the unsourced parts on the talk page pending presentation of verifiable sources, notably of the claims made in the lead. There are also some conclusions in the last paragraph of the Location section that give the impression of being original research, hence the quarantine until you can find reliable sources.

I should add that your rewrite was used as ammunition in defense of an earlier (and pretty fringe-science) version of the map that is now included in the article, and I admit I may have become a little less lenient than usual as a consequence. Your rewrite of the References section was in many ways an improvement, though it should be noted that it did not add new information to the existing section, deleted some useful information, and contained the unsourced claim "1 Kings 4:21 names it as the extreme (northern) border city of the kingdom of Solomon. The passage is an early Persian period insert and essentially makes the extent of Solomon's kingdom coincide with the then contemporary Persian province of Ebir-nari." (there is a ref, but it doesn't say that).

You are correct that the article had several flaws, and my partial revert should not be seen as endorsement of them. Now for your objections:

• "Its exact location is unknown but is said to be 100 miles north-east of Tadmor. " Where does this material come from? It's not referenced. Who said it was 100 miles north-east of Tadmor?

It's from Easton's Bible Dictionary: "Thapsacus, a great and wealthy town on the western bank of the Euphrates," about 100 miles north-east of Tadmor." The original version of the article had a footnote reference that apparently got lost later on when the article grew. It should be restored, since Easton is the source in several places in the article.

• Who said it is the modern town of Deir? And who "now assumed" it to be at Suriyah? Where is the reference?

Correct, it did lack some sources originally, and that should be remedied. I checked all original claims before I performed the partial revert and found them legit (in the Misplaced Pages sense of having been made by several reliable sources), but didn't think of adding the refs to the article. Here is one source of the Deir claim anyway (there are better ones, but I don't have time for a deep search right now): and two of the Suriyah: , . As a bonus, one for Dibsi Faraj and one for nearby Meskene.

• "Another possible location described by Conder in Easton's Bible Dictionary of 1897, however, identifies this place with Khurbet Tafsah, some 6 miles west of Shechem; this however is unlikely." What does some town near Shechem have to do with a town on the Euphrates? Why is this article even quoting a 1897 source which is saying something totally unrelated to the Euphrates' Thapsacus? And who says it is unlikely? Is not this the author of the article giving his own unverified comment.

I left it in because it's properly cited and conforms to Misplaced Pages standards, but a place near Shechem (in the modern West Bank) does seem unlikely, as one editor (somewhat OR-like) has pointed out. I'm not an expert though, so I can't judge how much merit the hypothesis has that identifies "the great river" of the Bible with Jordan. Perhaps there should be a separate section on the identification Tiphsah - Thapsacus, since this hypothesis clearly concerns Tiphsah rather than Thapsacus.

• "There is further suggestion that the town may be associated with Carchemish however this may be unlikely as the towns referenced as Europus and Amphipolis are separate and there is no other indication that the cities could be the same as Thapsacus." adds his own un-referenced opinion, totally going against the plain reading of Pliny 5.21 (a reference you removed) who says of Carchemish, under its later name of Europus, "Europus formerly Thapsacus".

That is not a plain reading of Pliny, as you note the actual text says "Europus formerly Thapsacus, now Amphipolis". You point to a hypothesis that a word got lost in the middle, but I haven't seen any indication that that view is more accepted in is mainstream science than the original one, so there are no grounds to remove all mention of it.

• "Another reference does suggest that the town was near "Jarablos", another name for Carchemish. "Well a second reference and surprise it gets it almost correct (when it says "near Carchemish"). But why is this source being quoted at all? It has nothing to do with the location of Thapsacus.

The sentence "Alexander crossed the Euphrates at Thapsacus (near Jarâblos)" seems to have a lot to do with the location of Thapsacus, since we know where Jarâblos was. A few miles from what you have determined to be the "correct" location, admittedly.

• Am I "pushing a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus"? Maybe I am when compared to the 100+ year old sources the article likes to quote, but not amongst modern scholars who have the benefit of a 100 years of new archaeological discoveries. Again look at the references in the above paragraph that you restored - even these say or hint at Carchemish. I am not the one who is pushing a minority view. It is clearly the author of the article who is pushing his POV.

I base my "Minority" assertion on nothing more sophisticated than a cursory web search, so I may be wrong and the current mainstream history view may indeed be that Thapsacus = Carchemish, and all other hypotheses may consequently have been discarded. Such a statement would have to be supported with rather good sources, naturally. Unless you can provide that, other editors may decide your article gives undue weight to one hypothesis among many.

Incidentally, the Graslin and Lemaire hypothesis, on which you base most of your argument that Thapsacus = Carchemish, struck me as pretty flimsy - it merely conjectures that Carchemish may have been Tapsuhu because Carchemish used a unit of weight that was called the "Carchemish standard" and Tapsuhu one called the "Tapsuhu measure", plus an Aramaic name was found in a text that was redacted in Tapsuhu, and that Tapsuhu may have been Thapsacus because Tapsuhu and Thapsacus sound similar. It then states as bald fact that the biblical Tiphsah = Thapsacus, which to my knowledge is far from proven. It does acknowledge that the exact location of Thapsacus was and is unknown though. Still, it's a proper cite, so I left it in.

If it's OK with you, I would like to move this conversation to the Thapsacus talk page. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi MeteorMaker. Yes, okay on placing these on the Thapsacus talk page. And I still have problems with the present article, especially those sources which are some 100 to 100+ years old. The Easton references should all be removed. They are so old that they do not even know the location of Carchemish or of its 1000+ year history prior to its Biblical appearance. It claims Menachem actually capture Thapsacus on the Euphrates - It may have been an educated guess back then, but try and find anyone today who would agree with their old interpretation.

And why bring in a reference to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica (even more so why make it the sole entry in a section headed "Modern References")? It refers to Peters' 1889 identification with Dibsai. Can't you get a more update reference?. As for the other identifications you list above - most are based on generic biblical references who are renowned for using old sources (and never updating these sources). But the Dibsai one is good. Why? Because it's from an academic journal in the field of ancient history. In fact it was one of the references I deliberately used (note 8 - and all the information in that note was from the article) - but you removed it. Only the first page is available on the web. Go to a university library and read the whole article - they reject the identification of Dibsai with Thapsacus.

Also get rid of note 10. It leads to a defunct site and if you try and search there for Thapsacus, it's only hit is this page. Joe Baker (talk) 10:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I've been away. You make many good points, and I'm confident the article will be much improved with your input. I agree it may potentially be a problem that the bulk of the present article is taken from century-old sources, but I have not seen much evidence that the hypotheses presented have been conclusively superseded by never ones. Your main source, Graslin and Lemaire, acknowledge that (as of 2004), "la location de Thapsacus reste discutée", ie no particular hypothesis is yet settled on. They (and you) make a case for Carchemish, but that is not what a Misplaced Pages article ideally should be - all hypotheses should be given space, as long as they cannot be shown to be permanently discarded by modern science. Sources such as your note 8 of course help, if it indeed disproves one of the hypotheses (Dibsai) conclusively.

Easton does (albeit tentatively) place Carcemish in the spot where we know today it was, so I don't think the argument that it's "too old" and therefore necessarily wrong holds much water. He identifies the "other" biblical Tiphsah (the one Menahem captured, in the present-day West Bank) with Thapsacus, but he also gives space to an opposing hypothesis, one that you held up as proof of the original WP article's inaccuracy. Much confusion could be avoided by creating a separate section on the identification Thapsacus = Tiphsah, as I have suggested. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:STALK

You appear to have followed User:Amoruso to four different articles solely for the purpose of reverting him. This kind of behavior is a violation of WP:STALK; please desist. Jayjg 01:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I have not reverted him where reverting wasn't called for. Take a look at the actual edits and you'll probably agree with me. As you know, we also happen to have quite a few watchlist pages in common. :) MeteorMaker (talk) 01:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

These were articles that he had edited today, included ones you had never edited before, and your first action was to revert him. Please don't take others for idiots, and please don't stalk him any further. Thanks. Jayjg 01:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

When one user (who has been banned for two months) returns and makes a large number of controversial and NPOV-violating edits, it's every responsible Wikipedian's duty to subject his edits to basic scrutiny. I don't see anybody else restoring his edits either (with the exception of the King David Hotel Bombing article, which admittedly was a borderline case). I'm sorry if you got the impression that means I am taking you and Amoruso for idiots.MeteorMaker (talk) 06:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You have a 3RR violation on Deir Yasin Massacre. If you revert again, I will report it. The Category:Israeli Atrocities is up for deletion as it is. Sposer (talk) 13:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I do not have a 3RR violation on Deir Yasin Massacre or anywhere else. Thanks for notifying me of the cat deletion nomination though. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Btw, Sposer, I'm curious: were you the one who made the threat that necessitated the temporary takedown of the article? If so, roughly what was the nature of the threat, which I suppose was directed at me? MeteorMaker (talk) 13:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what the threat was. I would never do that.Sposer (talk) 15:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Meteormaker, you were caught in a lie by user:Jayjg - which is it, did you watch the same page or did you stalk? I need this information if I report you. You will banned for your personal attacks and stalking in the future. You are in violation of WP:STALK. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter. Amoruso (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Where do you see a lie, stalking, tendentious editing, disruptive behavior or personal attacks on my part, Amoruso? With your accusations and threats, you seem to be in violation of WP:AGF.MeteorMaker (talk) 05:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

In your behavior we see it, as proven by user:Jayjg above and your admission. I complied with WP:AGF until you were caught in the lie now. Amoruso (talk) 13:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you point to a tangible example of the things you accuse me of, Amoruso? Else, kindly refrain from making personal attacks. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Like Jayjg explained above, you were found in violation of WP:STALK. You said you were watching those pages, then came up with another excuse - that you monitored me. Amoruso (talk) 15:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Not correct, I suggest you read it again. It's no secret that I reverted a couple of your edits because they were in clear violation of WP:NPOV and/or lacked sources. Additionally, you made substantial changes without trying to build consensus first. Any editor has a right (or even a duty) to revert under such circumstances. Having well demonstrated your penchant for that kind of edits in the time before your two-month ban, you should not be surprised that other Wikipedians monitor you when you return. That does not constitute a breach of WP:STALK, which clearly states that the reverts must be "with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor" It should also be noted that most of the reverts are still standing.

Hope that cleared it up for you. Most editors do not take accusations of lying lightly, so I advise you to be less libelous in the future. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, the criteria used by User:Jayjg against Meteormaker, were they applied to User:Amoruso's recent editorial irruptions on pages I edit and have on my watchlist, could be equally construed as violations of WP:STALK. On one page where Amoruso has edited singly against an old edit of mine, canvassing occurred and resulted in a page locked in his favour. On my page User:Amoruso, while expending much energy on warning me against violating WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, has successively diagnosed me as an egotist, someone with an inferiority complex, someone with a superiority complex, and a possible paranoid. So if this nice little operation to fix Meteormaker proceeds further up the wiki judicial system, I invite all above to examine User:Amoruso's full record with all editors over the last two days. It is pertinent to any accusations laid against Meteormaker, and I will be quite happy to assist with further details. Nothing, contrary to wild assertions on the Arbitration Notification page, has been proven, and one would do well to stop this strategic whingeing, use of allies, potential waste of time for administrators. Big blokes aren't supposed to whine, especially about piddling matters.Nishidani (talk) 21:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the issue is confused. What Nishidani saying here is irrelevant to WP:STALK of course because he's just upset over a content dispute. I don't know how that is related. Nishidani has been very uncivil to me for some reason for the past few days I have to say. Me and other users have had issues with the lead in an article after a recent edit by Nishidani. Please don't confuse matters. Meteormaker was simply caught in a lie. He said that he stalked me because we had the same pages watched. user:Jayjg explained to him that some of edits were on pages he never edited before - clear proof of stalking, and then Meteormaker said that he was monitoring me - i.e. changed his story.. that's all there's to it. I actually forgive him. Amoruso (talk) 21:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Amuroso does seem to be a bit of a stalker himself. Further evidence, from his contribs log:

• 03:33, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ariel (city)‎ (→External links: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
• 03:30, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Tel Rumeida‎ (already hebron.) (top)
• 03:29, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Beitar Illit‎ (→References: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
• 03:28, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Joseph's Tomb‎ (→External links: Nablus, Geography of the West Bank]....) (top)
• 03:27, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Judea and Samaria‎ (Geography of the West Bank) (top)
• 03:26, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Kiryat Arba‎ (→References: Hebron more specific) (top)
• 03:26, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ma'ale Adumim‎ (→External links: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
• 03:25, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Mevo'ot Yericho‎ (→External links: already in jericho - more specific)
• 03:24, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Rachel's Tomb‎ (already in a sub-cat) (top)
• 23:37, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:MeteorMaker‎ (→WP:STALK)

All these changes are reverts of changes I've made:

• 21:46, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Tel Rumeida‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:45, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Rachel's Tomb‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:42, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Mevo'ot Yericho‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:40, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ma'ale Adumim‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:40, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) m Kiryat Arba‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:20, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Judea and Samaria‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:20, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) m Joseph's Tomb‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:13, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Beitar Illit‎ (Cat added.)
• 21:08, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ariel (city)‎ (cat added.)

To his civility issues, his history of making baseless accusations, and his contempt for Wiki rules that rendered him a two-month ban, we can apparently add at least a slight amount of hypocrisy. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

These were not stalks. I edited in the past on many/most of these articles, and of course a CAT wrongly filled is basically one edit, one link. The two month ban was about a suspicion of sockpuppeting never proven definitely. It is also immaterial to your current behavior. Amoruso (talk) 23:01, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

. Two counts of following to previously unedited articles, exactly the same as my alleged "stalk". I'm confident you will be less quick to throw accusations around in the future. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. Following a link on a cat like I explained is different than following a link on a person (aka stalking). You're just embarrassed that you were caught lying to an administrator. But like I said I forgave you, just don't do it again. Amoruso (talk) 23:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Your initial belligerence ("I report you. You will banned!") seems to have waned a bit, which is good. You're still making baseless accusations, which is a violation of certain WP rules you no doubt have heard of, but since you keep repeating you "forgive" me, I hope we have seen the last of them now. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You should refrain from arguing after officially being warned by an administrator. That's the only true thing that happened here. You stalked, you lied, the incident was indeed reported, and you were warned by an administrator.Amoruso (talk) 00:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing that I should run and whine about your "stalking" to the admins too. Even for a superhuman admin, the less than 20 minutes between your filing your complaint and his reaction does not allow for a particularly thorough investigation, so my guess is that Jayjg just took your word for it. As we have seen, the most vital criterion for stalking ("the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor") was not fulfilled, nor was the "following around improperly" (for another reason than fixing errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, of which there tends to be more than a fair share in the edits you make). Your persistent accusations of lying, in addition to the allegations of stalking, does not reflect well on your reputation. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Your excuses (already rejected by Jayjg above) are noted. Just don't stalk (and subsequently lie) again. Amoruso (talk) 02:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

If I had the inclination, I could report you for your constant violations of WP:CIVIL, WP:ETIQ, WP:HARASS and WP:AGF and your documented history of making false claims (like these on the admin noticeboard:)

"This user, who for some reason doesn't have a user page, has been stalking me persistently. He reverts me on all pages, trying to provoke RV wars. and that's the only thing he does in wikipedia apparently. See his "contributions" - all stalking me - I've asked him to stop but he seemed to ignore it.".

The admins (like most other people) have better things to do however. If I were you, I'd keep my fantasies to myself, and everybody would be much happier. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

As long as you refrain from stalking again, I'm sure user:Jayjg won't ban you for this one time. Cheers, Amoruso (talk) 13:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't engage in stalking or any other uncivil behavior. Unlike you , I have never been banned, and the chances you will ever see that are slim or nonexistent. Further provocations or other breaches of WP:CIVIL on your part will be reported. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You've been warned by an administrator and you're playing as if you did nothing wrong. That means I may have to report it again. Amoruso (talk) 14:09, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You've been banned for two months and you're playing as if you did nothing wrong. I'm confident the potential consequences at this point of making further false allegations are clear to you. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Unlike you, I've been blocked for a suspicion. You've been warned. If you ceased your stalking, then the discussion is over. Amoruso (talk) 14:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You've been bannedblocked numerous times , for several kinds of violations. Your civility issues are legendary here , and are compounded by your belligerence and provocative behavior. This section will serve as further evidence against you if it comes to reporting. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't deny being blocked for 3RR in the past. I don't know why you're so defensive. I just wanted to be sure you understood the warning by the adminstrator and that you'll stop stalking. Amoruso (talk) 15:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, I don't stalk or engage in disruptive behavior. You have been blocked for disruptive/agitatory editing, 3RR (twice), incivility, and very abusive sockpuppetry. You have narrowly escaped blocking on several other occasions. Your next reply will be ignored and possibly deleted, if it's just another variation on the same theme. MeteorMaker (talk) 15:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Please take cared of this as well

Dear MeteorMaker,

Please take care of Promised Land as well!

IMHO this article should be main article for Land of Israel.

Thanks --Submitter to Truth (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Lehi

Your further comments here would be appreciated. Thanks, TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Category:Jewish terrorism

Hello. Concerning inclusion in Category:Jewish terrorism please see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#Category:Palestinian terrorists and Category:Israeli terrorists. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:05, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Sign your recent J&S edit

Because we had an edit conflict, and I outdented too. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 14:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. Lots of material now. Can't possible be dismissed with the standard broken record "OR" accusation. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd be pleasantly surprised, but will not hold my breath. We gotta wait for the rest of the camera crew, and hopefully some with NPOV too. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 15:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive editing on Samaria

Hello, MeteorMaker.

I've examined the history of the now protected Samaria, and the (vast) discussion on the talk page regarding your controversial edits to the article. I'm afraid I have to agree with the consensus on the page that you are being disruptive by your repeated attempts to force your terminology onto the article.

I have no opinion on the correctness of your position, but the fact remains that it is overwhelmingly rejected by the other editors and that, since Misplaced Pages relies on consensus to reach neutrality, editors who regularly go against consensus are disrupting the process. You may wish to avail yourself of the various avenues of dispute resolution, including possible mediation, in order to bring your proposed edits to a wider audience for reconsideration.

Please consider this a warning that under the ArbCom decision Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.

In particular, further attempts edit that article, or any other article in the area of conflict, against consensus will lead to sanctions being imposed on you. — Coren  05:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Dispute resolution is long overdue. I don't have much time this week though, so that will have to wait.

In Talk:Samaria, I only see a consensus of User:Jayjg however. The other two editors that were against bringing this WP article in line with the other online encyclopedias seem to have accepted the fact that their position simply doesn't match with reality, User:Canadian Monkey explicitly so , albeit perhaps inadvertently. It should also be noted that the third of those editors is openly partisan .

Claiming consensus for a position that has been shown to clash with WP guidelines and completely lacks reliable sources is the archetypical system gaming, particularly if it's in order to suppress an exceptionally well-sourced fact for purely ideological reasons. I strongly feel that the facts and nothing else should be discussed, like in academia, and that a two-person advantage in numbers shouldn't be a license to create wikiality. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Please understand that the prohibition against edit warring is entirely independent on how right or wrong the various positions are; it's about disputes ending up in articles and making them unstable. — Coren  15:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

How to solve "Use of word Samaria" problem

I get the uncomfortable feeling that MeteorMaker has both the logic of his claim (Samaria barely used outside Israel) and WP:Policy on his side (use English names, NPOV etc). Clearly, I've not examined more than a portion of the TalkPage discussions, but I can see Jayjg re-introducing material/clips that are claimed (rather persuasively) to have been refuted. Under these circumstances, uninvolved admins should be examining, explaining and defending policy - or judging the quality of the discources (ie identifying disruptive conduct), not adjudicating on content disputes which (we're constantly told) admins cannot do.

My suggestion to MeteorMaker is to build a table of the examples offered, with justifications and refutations in separate columns. Either Ian Lustuck is an Israeli or he's not, either he prefers the use of Samaria or use of the West Bank, etc. Without a very careful examination of the issues I can't be sure what's going on - I and others would have a much clearer picture if the evidence was laid out carefully.

PR 11:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. The implementation will have to wait a while though, I don't have much time ATM. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That's sad - you've been accused of disruptive editing (and that could even be true). But what I think I'm seeing is your powerful case being obstructed by people who are wiki-lawyering in order to damage articles. PR 19:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Please review WP:NOR and WP:NPA. Jayjg 03:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Done . Thanks for the suggestion, PR. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposals for a Palestinian state

The page talks about Palestinian state, not Palestinian Country/area/region. There are problems with bot on others wiki. Please correct the definition as i did.--Lord Hidelan (talk) 20:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I took it for vandalism. A clarifying note would have helped. Will revert. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:04, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

No problem, i see ;-) You can find a clear list here (i hope): Proposte per uno Stato di Palestina —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord Hidelan (talk • contribs) 20:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

3RR warning

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli settlement. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. NoCal100 (talk) 22:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not engaged in an edit war at Israeli Settlements or anywhere else. Thank you for your kind note anyhow. I have reverted three entirely different edits on that page and each time the reason has been clearly stated:

• Sources shown to be irrelevant to argument or contradicting it altogether. See talk .
• Too confusing. Take it to talk and maybe we can bend it to shape.
• Misplaced Pages (or derivatives of it) do not qualify as WP:RS.

MeteorMaker (talk) 23:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the were different edits, nor does it matter if you have given a reason for it - a revert is a revert. Please stop, or you are likely to get blocked. NoCal100 (talk) 23:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Samaria etc

I don't know what to do with these people (or rather what to do about what they get up to). They push obscure and/or anachronistic, politicised terminology into articles as if it were mainstream or equivalent to the current mainstream, and then start waving WP rules at you triumphantly as soon as they manage to google a couple of sources which can be interpreted as backing up their worldview, even when 100s more contradict it. Part of me wants to just walk away and save my time and energy over what is after all only an odd word here and there, but then I ask myself - hang on, why should people get away with inserting this minority viewpoint propaganda into what is - for better or worse - perhaps currently one of the world's main information and reference resources? Just a message of support for an occasional fellow-struggler ... --Nickhh (talk) 23:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

All it takes for wikiality to happen is for a few good men to do nothing. The struggle is tedious and time-consuming, but I must admit I also find it strangely amusing sometimes. As a bonus side effect, the complete lack of substance in their arguments gets mercilessly exposed, causing embarrassment for their entire coterie. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You could understand it perhaps if it were over a far more complex issue, or one which is open to interpretation or analysis, such as the causes of the Six Day War or whatever. But how can people seriously insist on forcing huge debates and edit wars over whether "Samaria" is the standard, mainstream and current way of referring to the northern West Bank (or part of it)? As I've suggested, it's as mad as English people insisting that Birmingham is a "city in Mercia". If I was really cynical (or even paranoid) I would merely assume that this was some sinister tactic to wear all the sane contributors down so that they lose the will to do anything else here. I looked through every index in nearly every book I have on the Middle East yesterday - written by a wide range of people, including Israelis - and noted that only one even has an entry for "Samaria" (flagging up one use of the word in the entire book), while one other has - again - one entry for the combined phrase "Judea and Samaria", but then simply says "see West Bank", kind of like a WP redirect. Out of 15 books, we have 382 index references to "the West Bank", 1 to "Judea & Samaria" and 1 to "Samaria". Oh well, I'll continue to occasionally dive in when I see the worst of this sort of thing. --Nickhh (talk) 09:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli settlement. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. - Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I have not made more than 3 reversions within a 24-hour period. Also, CM, please don't restore material that has been shown to be in breach of WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:NCGN without consensus. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You have on several occasions made exactly 3 reversions, and a fourth one just after the 24 hours expire. That is known as gaming the system, and your attention is drawn to the sentence which I have highlighted in the above warning. Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Tag-teaming to restore material that has been unequivocally shown to be a violation of not one but several WP policies plus one guideline is the archetypical system gaming. Please act in accordance with WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:SYNTH, WP:SOAP and WP:NCGN, you as well as Jayjg and NoCal100. Thank you. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

MeteorMaker, thanks for starting the RfC at Talk:Samaria. Hopefully with some additional editors commenting, it will be possible to try and find the consensus on how to deal with the dispute at that article. :) One request I do have though, is in how you are presenting your arguments. You seem to be personalizing the dispute a bit, as you keep repeating Jayjg's name over and over, in comments and edit summaries. Could you please try to step away from this practice? Focusing your comments strictly on the article, and not on other editors, may help the dispute to resolve more quickly. Thanks, --Elonka 22:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your views. The RfC contains his name only once, as a courtesy and acknowledgment of the research he did do. I agree I may have become carried away in the heat of the battle at other times during this prolonged debate, but I know for a fact that others have felt a bit of frustration in the exchanges with this particular editor too. It should be noted that he's no stranger to the practice either — witness for instance the naming of this section . MeteorMaker (talk) 22:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I have removed the name from the header, and if he continues to personalize the dispute, I shall have a word with him as well. Sound fair? --Elonka 23:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Thank you! MeteorMaker (talk) 23:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

RFC

You're free to insert whatever straw man arguments you want in your "RFC", but don't remove my own comments from the RFC again. Thanks. Jayjg 03:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your generous offer, which, due to a non-reliance on strawman tactics, I must decline. I have not removed your quotes either, I merely moved them to another section . If I can give you some advice in return, please don't use identical section headers, particularly not when the section name you copied is from an RfC that has yet to be found by the RfC bot. Thank you. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:07, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Complex reverts and 3RR

MeteorMaker, undoing the actions of another editor in a complex way, by slightly changing your wording each time even though you are aware that this does not address the fundamental issue, also counts as a 3RR violation. I strongly suggest you revert yourself, before you are blocked for this. Jayjg 00:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

How exactly is it "undoing the actions of another editor" to add information about the sources said editor adds? MeteorMaker (talk) 01:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

You've removed the phrase also known as "Judea and Samaria" each time, replacing it with slightly different qualifiers, or removing it altogether, in an attempt to get around the 3RR rule. This is fairly obvious, including to you. Please don't wikilawyer further; instead, revert yourself now and work it out on the Talk: page. Jayjg 01:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Editing at West Bank

• West Bank (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• MeteorMaker (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello. Today you have made substantially the same edit to West Bank four times, restoring a version of the lede from December the ninth. Whilst the edits are not verbatim identical there is little semantic difference. For these edits another editor has reported you to the edit warring noticeboard. You have been previously advised that edit-warring is forbidden.

Additionally, you made this edit with the clear intent to disrupt the article to make a point.

Thus, for violating the three-revert-rule and deliberate disruption, I have blocked you for 24 hours.

If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.

CIreland (talk) 02:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Oops

Sorry about the accidental tag. I was researching vandalism from an IP, and when I had the tag ready to put on their page, I accidentally clicked the wrong tab in my browser and put it on your page instead of theirs. The correct location was here. Sorry for any confusion, --Elonka 19:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Removing my comments

I'm fine with both being links, or both being lists, but don't remove my list of sources and replace it with a link, unless you do the same with your endlessly repeated list of sources too. Jayjg 22:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I always post the link to the "Samaria" discussion-of-sources page rather than copy 10K+ over and over, that's why it's there after all. The encyclopedia links were a one-off exception — I had posted the usual link about ten times, and CM kept saying "it doesn't say "Samaria" is an ancient term". I think he finally did read them, since he didn't repeat that absurd claim again.

Just saw you put the whole 12K in there again — which is your fifth identical copy of that same list. Admins have earlier discouraged that practice. I would advise you to settle for a simple link. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

And you've put your list of sources in what, 6 times? More? You've now reverted me 3 times, don't violate WP:3RR. Jayjg 23:48, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I have only posted the table of sources once. I had to repost a small subset yesterday, for reasons explained above and here.

I must ask you to revert your refactoring and clearly misleading labelling of that tiny fraction of the sources "MeteorMaker's sources" — you're forcing me to copy and paste the whole enchilada otherwise. In addition to being misleading, the label "MeteorMaker's sources" is also factually incorrect, since the sources were contributed by numerous editors, including yourself. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:02, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Nudge

Hi, as I've been reviewing your contribs, MeteorMaker (talk · contribs), I've been a bit concerned by how you've been rather focused on this "Samaria" issue, and have done little else for weeks. It hasn't always been like this, so could I perhaps give you a gentle nudge to work on other things as well? We definitely have a lot that needs doing on the project. :) Even just clicking on Random article a few times, I usually find something that I want to fix (or at least tag as needing cleanup) within a few clicks. Perhaps also create a userpage? Having a bit of information about your interests would be helpful, would help increase the trust level with other editors, and would also keep your name from showing up as a redlink! --Elonka 21:35, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I do tend to stay focused, and I am happy with that. I have no desire to flaunt my personal life on WP either. Thank you for your kind advice anyway. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:40, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Worth keeping in mind

With your mastery of the subject and the additional evidence from a few other hands as well, for both sides of the argument, it should be worth keeping in mind that these two long threads could well constitute an extremely well-documented NPOV wiki article on I/P terminology, or more specifically on history of 'West Bank/Samaria-Judea' usage, independently of how the decision goes. Something along those lines, to avoid wasting much closely mustered evidence in archived nooks. Best regards for the New Year Nishidani (talk) 13:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Nishidani, and happy new year to you too. Now that it's a group effort, we're finally getting somewhere, with contributions from several scrupulous and tireless editors. The evidence is rock-solid now and the resistance to aligning this encyclopedia with its more reputable colleagues has degenerated into the predictable accusations of racism and weak attempts to get the opposition blocked on entirely spurious grounds. The sad part is that as soon as we turn our backs for a moment, all the hard work will be undone, but I agree that if there's a well-documented reference page to point to, our successors will find the research work done for them already. If for no other reasons than that it's an enjoyable read, it's a good candidate for a wiki article, but I must admit I'm a little unsure about the procedure for creating one. Where can I read up? MeteorMaker (talk) 22:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Zionist Entity

Wikistalking is a big no-no. Consider this a polite warning. Repetition will result in more severe consequences. NoCal100 (talk) 17:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Look who's talking. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:HOUND: "Proper use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy or correcting related problems on multiple articles." - which is what you above links show. You, OTOH, have followed me to completely unrelated articles. DOn't say you were not warned. NoCal100 (talk) 17:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Yawn Nishidani (talk) 17:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

NoCal, I admit that it was you Canadian Monkey who led me to that page a week ago. Cool down. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:41, 1 January 2009 (UTC)