Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Hut 8.5 (talk | contribs) at 16:40, 24 April 2009 (→Scholars, Architects & Engineers respond to NIST: r). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

	World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 16, 2007 Peer review Reviewed January 2, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

This is not a forum for general discussion of World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories. Any such messages will be deleted.

Template:Multidel

To-do list for World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2010-09-11 Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Cleanup : *The citations have got out of hand. The various variations of the {{cite}} template need to be used, but there seem to be a great number which are imperfectly cited. Please pick up any that simply show as a url and visit (eg) cite web to determine the most appropriate template to put inside the ref. This is reinforced by the most recent Peer Review comment about consistency. The full set of templates are at Misplaced Pages:Citation templates The ref for In response to concerns about the destruction of evidence, W. Gene Corley, head of the Building Performance Assessment Team on the site, stated, that "The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples." at http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full02/mar06/corley.htm does not lead to the expected story This article makes no reference to the only cited scientific examination of actual materials for the presence of explosive materials claimed by supporters of the controlled demolition theory. That study by Harrit et al. found the presence of unexploded nanothermite materials. Copyedit : * From Peer Review One thing I would note is that grammar and phrasing are very important for "Featured Articles." I noticed a few phrases in the introduction that were awkward at best. Example: "The collapse of 7 World Trade Center (not hit by any plane)..." In this case, the interjection would flow much better if it was "which was not hit by a plane", or perhaps it should be removed entirely. The whole article should be examined for tone by a seasoned editor. Expand : *Fix this reference: Griffin, David Ray in The Hidden History (will fix ref). Other : *Continually monitor the Peer Review feedback, discuss it and incorporate the agreed items, making sure feedback is left on the Peer Review page Examine these references and determine whether they fit and where they fit. and add them if appropriate, giving feedback on completion

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This subarticle is kept separate from the main article, 9/11 conspiracy theories, due to size or style considerations.

Archives

September 2006 – October 2006 October 2006 – November 2006 December 2006 – January 2007 February 2007 – July 2007 August 2007 – December 2007 January 2008 – August 2008

NIST only a fraction of the Engineering community

The response to B7 report

The demolition proponents have responded to NIST in a detailed letter. The letter has now been posted in numerous locations. It makes no sense to remove the positions of demolition proponents from the page claiming to be about the demolition theory. Please do not remove this letter. 152.131.10.133 (talk) 21:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The claim that these sources are now "unreliable" is clearly grasping at straws as a rationale for not allowing the sentence to be added. These sites -- 911blogger.com, 911truth.org, stj911.org -- are all over wikipedia on the 9/11 pages. Since when did they suddenly become unreliable? bov (talk) 21:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

They're not reliable. I think we've been allowing some slack for messages apparently from and claiming to be from a source reliable among truthers. I'm not sure it's in keeping with Misplaced Pages policies, but I'm willing to let it stay in the CDH article, with some corrections. It should not be in a non-fringe article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting that defenders of the official theory on here are trying to hide or bury the challenges to it made by the actual people this article claims to be about, with handwaving about "reliability" and "truthers". The exact same article is posted all over the internet, so the assumption that somehow all these blogs faked this letter, yet none of the 18 authors has noticed or commented, is pretty much as fringe conspiracy theory as it gets. It's like the rightwingers who attack gays and then turn out to be gay themselves . . . Also, tacking the sentence that includes this info onto a long-winded paragraph about the official report, and removing it's date, is another time-honored wikipedia tactic to obfuscate awareness. bov (talk) 20:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

It's fascinating that users Hut and Arthur Rubin continue to delete the DATE from a single sentence about the NIST submission comments by demolition proponents. They have no basis for removing it except the need to hide the relevance of it. See here. bov (talk) 20:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Explain the relevance of the date. I don't see it, other than the date being after that of the draft report, and recent enough that no one outside the truth movement would have looked at it yet. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Engineering community = Zdeněk Bažant?

I spent some time reading this article and tried to figure out what was meant by the engineering community. I came to the conclusion that this community equals Zdeněk Bažant (with the possible addition of 9/11 Commission). Is this correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilkkah (talk • contribs) 15:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

No - it refers to engineers as a collective body. Hut 8.5 15:16, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be more citations in the introductory chapter, in that case. Imho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilkkah (talk • contribs) 15:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Why? Is there something wrong with the references we have? Bear in mind that the introduction is meant to summarise the rest of the article, and anything sourced in another part of the article doesn't need to be sourced again in the introduction. Hut 8.5 17:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

As a WP reader I was quite confused and had to spend a lot of time finding out what was meant by the engineering community. Basically it just links to Bažant paper (in the first chapter). Could be a good idea to elaborate what is meant by the engineering community (imho, again). Didn't mean anything was wrong with the references, just wanted to see more of those in the first chapter. Ilkkah (talk) 22:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The Bazant paper is the reference cited for the information, it's not a link to improve the reader's understanding. I suppose we could link to Scientific community or Scientific consensus. Hut 8.5 06:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, not reader's understanding. Then I missed the point of WP. I thought it was about reader's understanding of things. Ilkkah (talk) 09:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you've missed the point. It's so the reader can verify the information in the article, not for the reader's understanding. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 12:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it has to be both (yes I checked this http://en.wikipedia.org/Reference :-) ... OK, my initial question was trollish, sorry about it. I wanted to understand the engineering community comment, and after considerable research I think I can see why it's there. So I'm not complaining because the comment is there (a couple of days ago I wasn't agreeing on it that much, but maybe I have changed my views a bit), I just wished some more backing/explaining/references for it. Ilkkah (talk) 21:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

We can all wish for better references. The problem is that, as the mainstream engineering community generally thinks this theory (or theories) has (or have) been discredited, they're not writing about it any more. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I've linked the term to Scientific community. If necessary I can add two more references to that sentence. Hut 8.5 08:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

You can't link it to the scientific community because they are fence sitting on the subject. I think what Ilkkah is talking about is that using the term engineering community should require more than one cite especially as that one couldn't pass a peer review. I suggest citing at least two peer reviewed papers to prove the term is correctly used. Wayne (talk) 15:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Explantion for Diagonally Cut Steel Girder

I did not see the diagonally cut steel girder mentioned on this page. This image has been floating around the internet for some time and it has not been explained. (http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2006/06/341239.jpg) How did the steel girder get cut at a diagonal angle. The official NIST explanation says the building collapse began with one column. If this girder was not cut by clean up crews then how was it cut, the collapsing building would not have cut it in such a fasion. This potentially crucial piece of evidence needs to be on this page and it needs to be fully explained. 68.229.87.128 (talk) 19:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In order to add information to Misplaced Pages articles you need to have references for your claims, can you provide some? I can't see anything in the report saying that only one column failed, can you provide a specific reference for that as well? Hut 8.5 20:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you're confused, 68. The NIST report says that building 7 fell because one vertical failed, followed by others. However, the NIST report also says that the two people who were rescued from building 7 after the initial explosions there were rescued after one of the towers fell. The newscasts of their rescue were broadcast before the towers fell. Also, Bazant claims that "the engineering community" agrees with the OTC. However, the real engineering community, as a whole, appears to be just as unconscious as the rest of the population, so Bazant is just spouting baseless propaganda. Neither Bazant nor NIST should be regarded as a reliable souce. We should change the attribution to something more explicit, such as "Bazant claims that the engineering community rejects everything but the official conspiracy theory." FEMA seems to be slightly more reliable.

You will note, however, the recently melted metal around the edges of the cut. Most of the columns were hastily shipped to China and melted down, but some pieces were retained for various reasons. For the ones for which the recently molten metal was recovered, however, it has been shown to be mostly iron with traces of aluminum, sulfur, potassium and manganese, but no chromium, so it comes from some source other than the column itself. Wowest (talk) 06:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

FEMA? Reliable? And NIST report clearly stated that the debris from WTC 7 was made available to researchers. If they weren't actually looked at, it must mean the researchers didn't see the need. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you seriously arguing that speculations on the meaning of a contextless photo on the internet are reliable, but a world-renowned engineer writing in a peer reviewed journal or a 10,000 page report produced by hundreds of experts aren't? We have no idea who took this photo, where or when it was taken, or what it is depicting. Including the picture with this information would be pure original research. Hut 8.5 13:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

This crops up on Misplaced Pages whenever brainwashing is involved. We have something called mind-control cults. These groups claim to be religions. They have some fairly predictable, but strange beliefs. You can expect, right off the bat that the leader of the group has a unique relationship with God. Maybe he IS God. One guy claimed to be "greater than God," and another, "greater than or equal to God." Some of the members -- or casualties -- got to be that way because they participated in the "sacrament" of LSD in the leader's presence. Some learned to "pray" or "meditate" in a certain way that deprived them of their ability to criticize what they were told. The biggest issue, here, is the practice -- the hypnotic drugs or unwitting self-hypnotic "meditation" or "prayer."

So, some of these groups got together and bribed experts in the relatively small community of scholars of sociology of religion. They got to go to special conferences, all expenses paid. They got consulting fees. Nothing was stated explicitly, but there were certain expectations, which were met. Suddenly "New Religious Movements" were good and special, even if they were neither new nor religious. However, when someone gets deprogrammed from the practice (not always possible), then they recognize that they believed something they were told with no real proof. Maybe they had an astonishing "religious" experience, but that does not make the explanation they were given true, and they have no proof that the leader really was the Lord.

So, who are the main suspects here? Al Queda and several domestic and/or foreign organizations. Is NIST funded by one of the principal suspects? Yes. In fact, it's subordinate to the Bush White House. Can we believe what it says? Maybe. We can certainly extend tentative suspension of disbelief to some of what NIST has to say, but when it contradicts known facts, we have to be suspicious.

Bezant? He says things he has no way of knowing. Is he intentionally lying when he talks about the "community of engineers?" We have no way of knowing that, and he is an expert, but when over 500 lesser experts disagree with him, we have to evaluate what he says objectively. In that context, we really should say "according to Bazant, the community of engineers rejects...." It's about HONESTY.Wowest (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

What you are arguing for has no place in Misplaced Pages. Wild conspiracy theories can't be used to evaluate the credibility of sources, and the sources in question pass WP:RS with flying colours. The federal government isn't considered a "suspect" by anyone except fringe theorists and our article must reflect this per WP:UNDUE. Even if we take the claims of expert support from the CD supporters at face value they don't represent anything more than a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of experts in the fields in question. This is still original synthesis to advance a viewpoint. Hut 8.5 19:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Can some of the above be cleaned up or archived? (a) accusing the white house without foundation, and (b) the long discussion of religious movements, are probably unproductive themes and matters that by now are probably tentatively resolved or answered. --Ihaveabutt (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Question

Yeah, kinda new, where should I add these links: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0711/banovic-0711.html They seem relevant, but I'm not sure where they would go. Thanks Soxwon (talk) 15:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

You could put them in an external link section or cite them as references somewhere. There is an article on the collapse of the World Trade Center, they might be better off there. Hut 8.5 19:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I tried to add them as references, but it didn't seem right, I think the external link is what I was looking for. Thank you Soxwon (talk) 04:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

JOM only says "The editor or advisor acquires a prospective manuscript, both review it and consider the merit and compatibility of the paper with the proposed technical emphasis topic. Usually, this process takes about a month.", so there may be doubt about whether this is really peer-reviewed. --Cs32en (talk) 21:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View on Articles on Fringe Topics

I don't know if this is a problem with this article specifically, but I posted this on some other articles relating to 9/11 conspiracy theories and thought it might be helpful here.

In articles on fringe topics, we are not supposed represent the fringe theory as if it is a legitimate viewpoint or on some kind of equal footing. Instead, we're supposed to fairly represent all sides of an issue per reliable sources. If reliable sources reflect a particular viewpoint, then we're supposed to represent that viewpoint as well. In a case such as this article, I doubt if there are many (if any) reliable sources that claim the WTC was destroyed via controlled demolition. Even if there are any, weight should be roughly proportional to the preponderance of reliable sources backing that perspective.

As a result, there might be a WP:NPOV issue with this article. This article should treat this topic in the same manner as reliable sources do. Thus, if NIST, Popular Mechanics, the BBC, ABC News, Time Magazine, etc. regard the controlled demolition conspiracy theory as outlandish bunk unsupported by factual evidence, that that's how this article should be written. To do otherwise, is against WP:NPOV.

In other words, the viewpoints of reliable sources are the standard by which we write our articles and judge its neutrality.

A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:39, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

You are not supposed to represent any sides of an issue. You present facts, and then present citations so those facts can be verified. I dispute the neutrality of this article based on the title. I feel the title of the article is not neutral. The title infers its not true before the reader has a chance to read any data. The word conspiracy should not be in the title. Rtconner (talk) 07:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

We do present facts. It is a fact that Islamic terrorists attacked the US on 9/11 and it is a fact that these attacks brought down the WTC, not controlled demoltion. As for the title, you'll need reliable sources to back you up. We already looked it up and the vast majority of reliable sources about controlled demolition on 9/11 refer to it as a conspiracy theory. Regardless, I'd suggest you make future posts in the thread about the title as this one was just a helpful reminder. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 10:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

BTW, we are supposed to represent view points on an issue. Please read the policy pages I linked to in my original post to this thread. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I didnt think a conspiracy theory page was a reliable source anyway since its not based on factOttawa4ever (talk) 16:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

This line is deceptive

"Engineers were in fact initially surprised by the collapses and at least one considered explosives as a possible explanation. " I think this line leaves the impression that engineers were surprised by the collapses after the planes struck, when, I believe, the articles themselves expressed surprise at 9/11 generally. Additionally, we should be clear that when we say that engineers considered explosives as an explanation, they considered the explanation and found it to be absurd. Bonewah (talk) 21:32, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Much agreed, Also source is from 8 days after 9/11. It would seem to be pretty unrealistic that an engineer could accurately assess accuraetly the event in that short of time Ottawa4ever (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Aude compiled a list of engineers' statements about the collapse in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 here, most of them don't indicate surprise that the towers fell. I agree this ought to be removed. Hut 8.5 20:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to read Bazants paper again. Quote:To structural engineers, the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers on 9/11/2001 came as the greatest surprise since the collapse of Tacoma Narrows Bridge in 1940. Wayne (talk) 08:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

A very similar sentence was removed from Collapse of the World Trade Center because it did not represent the majority of the sources. To be consistent we should remove it from here. Hut 8.5 08:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

It does not have to "represent the majority of the sources". The claim is not disputed so as long as it is reliably sourced then it is relevant and should stay. Wayne (talk) 08:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The sentence is accurate. Everyone was surprised at 911 but that is not what the engineers are refering to. It is clear that they were surprised by the collapses themselves from an engineering viewpoint as it was believed to be virtually impossible given the state of pre 911 knowledge. If such was not the case then there would have been no need for NIST to investigate as NIST themselves admit. That at least one engineer considered explosives is not disputed and that he changed his mind later does not alter the accuracy of the sentence. Don't give conspiracy theorists ammunition to support their claims of censorship guys. Wayne (talk) 16:49, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of Explosion: What Kind of Bomb Could Have Pulverized Everything?

Recommend renaming this article

There is no "hypothesis" that controlled demolition brought down the WTC. There are "conspiracy theories" that this occurred, but thats all. I recommend and urge we retitle this article to properly reflect what this article discusses, namely the conspiracy theories. So I think that retitling it to ] would be the most accurate title which reflects the information in the article.--MONGO 03:46, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Mongo. I did several Google searches on "Controlled demolition hypothesis" and the vast majority of hits come from 9/11 conspiracy Web sites, none of which qualify as WP:RS. If you ignore the conspiracy Web sites (as we should) and only look at reliable sources, the term "Controlled demolition hypothesis" is hardly ever used. The overwhelming majority of reliable sources refer to the "controlled demolition" of the World Trade Center as a conspiracy theory. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Is Misplaced Pages an encyclopedia or do we use newspaper terminology? A conspiracy theory is who did it and why while a hypothesis is what happened. A conspiracy theory requires a hypothesis as a basis. To use newspaper terminology is inappropriate and could even be POV.
Conspiracy Theory-noun: a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event.
Hypothesis-noun: a tentative theory; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena. Wayne (talk) 16:37, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Most reliable sources talk about "controlled demolition" and then go on to describe it as a conspiracy theory. A hypothsis is a scientific proposal that has yet to be proven. Things that are patently false are not called hypotheses. Only Truther literature uses the term "controlled demolition hypothesis". Therefore, in accordance with our general practice on Misplaced Pages to call things by what they are, I think this article should be named World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories. See also Chemtrail conspiracy theory, Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, October surprise conspiracy theory. Jehochman 19:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Rename it. Isn't a hypothesis something that can be falsified? But to the point, calling it the "controlled demolition hypothesis" is substituting what some guys on the internet think best for what the sources say. That's original research. We should describe things as the sources describe them. To the extent they talk about this at all, they do so in the context of the 911 conspiracy theories. Tom Harrison 19:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Done. Jehochman 03:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

How is it that several editors with a known bias suggest a name change using false information in support and six hours later it is a done deal? If it had been a move by conspiracy theorists they ould have been blocked if not topic banned. Since the reasons given for the change are not valid (have you even read the reliable sources?) I request the name be reverted and time given for editors to comment. Nist uses several phrases in ther reports when talking of controlled demolition. 1: Controlled demolition hypothesis (the most common term they use), 2: Controlled demolition theory, 3: Controlled demolition event and 4: an alternative hypothesis. Are you suggesting NIST is not a reliable source? If Nist is not reliable then how about Bazant who uses the term? Manuel Garcia? A physicist and engineer at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory uses the phrase Controlled demolition hypothesis in his article titled We See Conspiracies That Don't Exist The Physics of 911 as does Pierre Sprey in his The Absurdity of Controlled Demolition. Even Shermer called it the planned demolition hypothesis. Wayne (talk) 08:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

• @Wayne, Conspiracy theorists are definitely not on equal footing at Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is for verifiable facts. Jehochman 11:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

• A name change seems perfectly reasonable to me. WP:NAME says that "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize", and when the controlled demolition ideas are discussed in reliable sources they are labelled as conspiracy theories, even in academic journals. Furthermore I should note that the article's title was one of the reasons why it failed a GA review in 2008. NIST reports use phrases like "allegations of controlled demolition" or "hypothetical blast scenarios" to describe parts of the idea. Hut 8.5 11:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'd suggest to rename the article "World Trade Center controlled demolition allegations", as the term "allegation", according to the Wiki entry, describes "a claim of a fact by a party in a pleading, which the party claims to be able to prove" (without at the same time implying that the claim would be about the existence of a conspiracy). --Cs32en (talk) 01:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

• You sound a lot like prior editors who were banned from this page, and I notice that you have a very short edit history, focusing on 9/11 conspiracy theory topics. So, have you ever edited Misplaced Pages before under a different userid? Jehochman 01:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I could not answer your question earlier, as my account was temporarily blocked. I am also using an account on the German Misplaced Pages, which you can find here. I have never edited Misplaced Pages under a different userid.

There seem to exist considerable cultural differences between Wikis of different countries. For example, if you log out from the English Misplaced Pages, you see the following text:

"You are now logged out. This computer may be used to browse and edit Misplaced Pages without a username, or for another user to log in."

Logging out from the German Misplaced Pages, the notice reads:

"You are now logged out. You can continue to use Misplaced Pages (your edits will be registered with your IP adress), or you can log in again.

(I do not think anyone using Misplaced Pages for any extended period of time should use an IP adress.) --Cs32en (talk) 01:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. There are big differences. By now you are aware that this article is a battlezone, and that this talk page has been engaging in circular discussions with tendentious editors and banned editors using sock puppets. Please forgive us for being suspicious. 9/11 is not some minor event. The media in New York cover evering single detail and angle that has any legitimacy. If you need to look to far distant media to find verification of something, that something is likely to be quite dubious. There is an online community of Truthers who are lobbying quite heavily to promote their conspiracy theories. It is not surprising that they occasionally dupe somebody into publishing something. My concern is that these folks not be allowed to use Misplaced Pages as a platform for their propaganda. Jehochman 02:30, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Asserting that only New York media is reliable and other sources dubious is laughable. U.S. media is widely known as unreliable on some topics. There is no online community of truthers as exists for the opposite viewpoint although I accept that though I have not seen evidence of one I may be wrong. I doubt that there is more than minimal contact between them and lobbying is non existant. My concern is that reliably sourced good faith edits are treated as using Misplaced Pages as a "platform for their propaganda" if any of a certain group don't like it. Unless an editor has a history of propaganda treat them as you wish your edits to be treated instead of dismissing everything you dont agree with. Wayne (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeh and claiming the BBC is a reliable source is also laughable. These after all are the people who reported that the hijackers were still alive a few days after the event and "lost" key tapes of their coverage of the 21st centuries defining moment. Then there's NIST, who have been caught DENYING the existance of molten metal and the high temperatures of Ground Zero and, despite being LEGALLY MANDATED to under the NFPA 921 code, did not check for thermite residues. Oh, and let's not forget Mark Loizeux of Controlled Demolition Inc, who doesn't believe a series of thermite reactions can bring down a building in a symmetrical fashion... but believes normal office fires can!--90.212.181.83 (talk) 14:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Removals of the new paper

Removed Information

It seems Mr. Jehochman is either forgetting that wikipedia is 100% transparent and can be followed by anyone anywhere, or else he deliberately wishes to be seen as trying to obscure even discussion of potential criminal evidence to a crime scene. I would not be surprised if more and more lurkers come out of the woodwork with this kind of leak being reported, but it does not mean they are all "sockpuppets" or "single purpose accounts", it just means lots of unconnected people are wondering the same thing. No Time Toulouse (talk) 15:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Attempted user intimidation

Horizontal Ejections of Steel

Disinformation section needed

Conspiracy Label (problematic in a different way)

The "Conspiracy theory" idea is probably problematic on a few levels, ones not subject to prior discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/Conspiracy_theory —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.166.82.240 (talk) 14:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe we should reject attempts at wikilawyering by a sock or meat puppet account. Jehochman 22:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Johachman's intentions and I think he has rationale for bad faith. It is my mistake - still making green (signature) errors I guess. However, there is much a rationale for the idea stated; I just don't know how to explain it perfectly yet. I promise to be more efficient and clear and everyone can agree also: let's not bite the new guys. --Ihaveabutt (talk) 18:31, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Head of FBI Counterterrorism Division on Controlled Demolition hypothesis

I propose to include the following information in this article:

The FBI does not exclude alternative theories about the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, from its investigation. Michael J. Heimbach, head of the FBI Counterterrorism Division has characterized the hypothesis, brought forward by Richard Gage, that the buildings of the World Trade Center would have collapsed as a result of controlled demolitions, as "an interesting theory, backed by thorough research and analysis".

1. Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth
2. Letter from Michael J. Heimbach, Assistant Director, Counterterrorism Division, National Security Branch, to Harold Saive (Dec. 22, 2008)

With regard to the relevance and verifiability this information, I would like to add the following:

• The FBI is, of course, a well-known institution, and its views are highly relevant in the context of this article. Michael J. Heimbach, who expresses these views in his capacity as Assistant Director at the FBI, is certainly not a Truther.

• Misplaced Pages is not about finding out the truth (WP:Verifiability), and this article should not be about finding out the truth, either. This article is about a minority viewpoint, as its title indicates, so the following policy item from WP:SOURCES is relevant: "Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them" (emphasis by me).

• With regard to the source of this letter, I am very well aware that it is not a peer-reviewed paper. However, if the letter would have been forged or manipulated, the FBI would have taken effective steps against the publication of the PDF file, and more than three months after its publications, there would be some trace of any such action on the internet. Cirumstantial evidence, therefore, indicates that the source is reliable.

• I have added the information above, with (almost) the same wording (e.g., the FBI is the "US-American federal police" in the german text), in the section on "Conspiracy theories" of the main German article on the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, on March 8. As of today, no other editor has either modified this paragraph or objected to the inclusion of it. --Cs32en (talk) 20:39, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

You can't use unreliable fringe theorist sources to back up statements about anything other than the opinions of the group that published the source. This includes statements commenting on the level of the acceptance of the fringe theory, and we have to be especially careful if we are dealing with statements by real people. The fact that the FBI hasn't requested that the material be removed certainly doesn't make it reliable (see WP:RS for things that do), and decisions on the German Misplaced Pages have no effect on the English Misplaced Pages (and vice versa). Hut 8.5 21:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that including this material is not a good idea. Misplaced Pages does not draw conclusions. We merely assemble what is reported by reliable sources. If it were verifiable and relevant, it would appear in a reliable source, such as the New York Times (which has covered 9/11 in very great detail). We should not look to distant, minor, or exotic sources, nor should be be drawing inferences based on speculation. This article in particular has been the subject of intense speculation, lobbying and attempts at publishing original research. We should very strictly apply Misplaced Pages's verifiability, neutral point of view and biography of living persons policies here. Jehochman 22:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. There is a big difference between saying it's "interesting" and "backed by thorough research" and saying it's true. There are all sorts of mad theories which are interesting and it is a feature of conspiracy theorists that they tend to be obsessive and thus produce reams of research - of course, such research tends to quietly ignore anything inconvenient to its pre-existing conclusions, which is why it does not generally get published in reliable independent peer-reviewed sources. The controlled demolition theory is a classic conspiracy theory, and this is just one more example of supporting conspiracy theories by demanding proof of a negative. Guy (Help!) 15:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that Heimbach or the FBI would think that the hypothesis is true. But they say they do not exclude it from their investigation, which at least means that the do not think there is sufficient evidence to declare with certainty that it is false. --Cs32en (talk) 21:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

When I was in 5th grade, I was taught that a "hypothesis" was an "educated guess." Not just a guess, but an *educated* guess. It is unfortunate that some editors on Misplaced Pages choose to act as gatekeepers by insisting that the New York Times is an unquestioningly reputable source when all one has to do is look at the Jayson Blair scandal. It is likewise unfortunate that these same editors have gotten to the point where they can not see the difference between a peer-reviewed scientific study and a conspiracy theory. Clearly the only "agenda" is not by "truthers" but by those folks who wish to marginalize the controlled demolition hypothesis using the term "conspiracy theory," which has become a byword for "wacky nutcase idea." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kameelyun (talk • contribs) 20:00, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Aha! You are starting to get the point. Misplaced Pages is not a platform for publishing wacky, nutcase ideas. There are plenty of websites for that. This isn't one of them. Go elsewhere if that's your agenda. Jehochman 21:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

So why are there any number of articles on Misplaced Pages about Flat Earth etc., and there is even an explicit policy on fringe theories, both in articles about the subject of such theories and in articles about such theories themselves? --Cs32en (talk) 21:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

As long as we're following NPOV and RS, we're not promoting wacky, nutcase ideas, we're debunking them. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is neither about promoting nor about debunking ideas. It is about presenting ideas in rough proportion to their notability. --Cs32en (talk) 21:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the Popular Mechanics and NIST's report regarding the controlled demolition conspiracy theories? They debunk. So should we. It would be against WP:NPOV not to. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

"NIST did not conduct tests for explosive residue and as noted above, such tests would not necessarily have been conclusive". It represented "the WTC 2 structure above th 86th floor as a 'single super-element'" (Final Report, p. 104), although it is clearly disintegrating before collaps initiation. "Since the stories below ... provided little resistance ... the building section above came down essentially in free fall" (p. 146). First, there is no "building section", but a cloud of dust above the "stories below". Second, even if there was a building section, and if it was intact, and if the steel had lost 50 % of its strength, then a large part of the potential (gravitational) energy of the upper "building section" would still have been needed to deform the steel, and thus would not have been available for the acceleration at "essentially ... free fall" speed. So we you need to ask: why did the lower stories, from top to bottom, provide "little resistance", as the NIST report concedes? --Cs32en (talk) 19:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

WP:SYN, we don't ask anything, we report. Soxwon (talk) 20:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Good point. I changed my comment. --Cs32en (talk) 20:13, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps someone widely quoted and notable as asking that (non-fringe too), but otherwise it's speculation and a violation of WP:CRYSTAL. Soxwon (talk) 20:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Sir Jehochman: Thank you for acknowledging that you DO have an agenda to marginalize the hypothesis is a "nutcase wacko conspiracy theory." Misplaced Pages is for finding information. The controlled demolition hypothesis exists, and it is backed explicitly (in writing, if just by petition signature) by hundreds of relevant professionals with appropriate credentials, and likely by thousands more. Not only that, the FBI has acknowledged that the hypothesis is "backed by thorough research and analysis." These facts alone should make anyone's head turn. As such, sir, it is merely YOUR OPINION that it is a "wacky nutcase idea" and you are using your editorial power to attempt to marginalize the idea with the negative term "conspiracy theory" which puts it in the category of Elvis sitings, UFO's etc. I am very disappointed. EDIT: Do you remember the Jayson Blair scandal? Do you remember the "60 Minutes" accuracy scandals? I'm disappointed that you unquestioningly seem to believe that the New York Times is a de facto reliable source.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kameelyun (talk • contribs) 22:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I notice that your username sounds like Chameleon. Do you change appearances to blend in? Are you avoiding scrutiny by using multiple accounts? Yes, it is my agenda to prevent people from using this website for wikiality. Jehochman 23:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Please address personal issues at the talk pages of the respective editors, or at the Administrators' noticeboard, if necessary, Jehochman. Bringing these things up here merely disrupts the discussion. --Cs32en (talk) 23:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

This is my first account on Misplaced Pages because I was angered enough by the censorship on your part to register and give my $0.02. Thank you for admitting you are indeed biased. -- Preceeding comment added by Kameelyun (diff) 00:08, 15 April 2009 (UTC).

Bart Simpson: 'conspiracy theory' is like 'bitch' (female dog)

The first sentence as written says that "theories claim."

The problem is the evidence which might be dealt with as such, which is dealt with as evidence in many countries around the world, and it will be interesting to see the US writers slowly catch up with many countries.

This term used (c.t.) is a perfect one for one who wishes to claim that he "means in a good way" a vague phrase that has cold meanings, like the fun way rascal children like to use the word "bitch" and say they mean "female dog" (think Bart Simpson).

As the families and firefighters note, to criticize evidence (calling it theory) makes sense if we are playing in the land of Simpsons whose double meanings are indeed a joke.

wiki quote:

Here come the dogs ..

--Ihaveabutt (talk) 04:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The 2008 article "Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials" in The Environmentalist

I propose also adding, as a significant event, the following peer-reviewed article published in Springer's science journal to the History section: "Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials" http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/ Perscurator (talk) 14:44, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

It's still a fringe theory. Per WP:NPOV, "each Misplaced Pages article and other content must be written from a neutral point of view, by representing all significant views on each topic fairly, proportionately, and without bias." One or two articles do not outweigh the thousands and thousands of reliable sources that say that Al Qaeda destroyed the WTC by crashing two jets into them. Come back when you have a few hundred more. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

This article, of course, is named "Controlled Demolition conspriracy theory", not "Refutations of Controlled Demolition conspiracy theory", so the article is relevant, even if it would not be relevant in an article on "9/11 theories". Significant means significant in the context of the article, as defined by its title. You start gaming the policies here. --Cs32en (talk) 17:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

We're supposed to fairly represent all sides to an issue per reliable sources. If reliable sources reflect a particular viewpoint, then we're supposed to represent that viewpoint. There are few, if any, reliable sources that say that the WTC was brought down by a controlled demolition. Even if there were any, weight should be roughly proportional to the preponderence of reliable sources backing of that perspective. As I already pointed out, there are thousands and thousands of reliable sources that say that Al Qaeda destroyed the WTC by crashing two jets into them. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not arguing for presenting the non-mainstream sources in the same way as the mainstream sources. Your reasoning would be correct if the article would be about the subject itself (in this case, the title would be "Destruction of the World Trade Center"). In the context of this article, however, it is not a question of relative weight, but a question of the wording which we use when we present the sources and their content. This is an article about a non-mainstream hypothesis, so I think it's obvious that the relevant statements and arguments of its proponents should be included. Objections to these statements and arguments should be included as well, according to their relevance. --Cs32en (talk) 04:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

That's a common misunderstanding, but that's not how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work. All Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to follow NPOV. There are no exceptions. Fringe theories don't get special treatment just because we're in an article about fringe theories. I've made this point before and I'll make it again:

In articles on fringe topics, we are not supposed represent the fringe theory as if it is a legitimate viewpoint or on some kind of equal footing. Instead, we're supposed to fairly represent all sides of an issue per reliable sources. If reliable sources reflect a particular viewpoint, then we're supposed to represent that viewpoint as well. In a case such as this article, I doubt if there are many (if any) reliable sources that claim the WTC was destroyed via controlled demolition. Even if there are any, weight should be roughly proportional to the preponderance of reliable sources backing that perspective.

This article should treat this topic in the same manner as reliable sources do. Thus, if NIST, Popular Mechanics, the BBC, ABC News, Time Magazine, etc. regard the controlled demolition conspiracy theory as being wrong and unsupported by factual evidence, that that's exactly how this article should be written. To do otherwise, is against WP:NPOV.

In other words, the viewpoints of reliable sources are the standard by which we write our articles and judge its neutrality. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

AQFK has stated numerous times on this page "If reliable sources reflect a particular viewpoint, then we're supposed to represent that viewpoint as well." I think I finally get what he or she is saying now. Put another way: In this case, we are allowed to endorse a particular viewpoint over another, because all the sources that hold that viewpoint are the ones we call "reliable". No Time Toulouse (talk) 22:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Consensus on removing reference to the "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe" article?

Blocking a user after one edit and a few comments on the Talk page?

As I noted above, after I returned a reference to the Bentham article supporting the controlled demolition "conspiracy theory", I was immediately warned that I could be blocked from Misplaced Pages. After that sigle edit, I only wrote two comments on this Talk page. After that, I found the following on my own talk page:

I've filed an arbitration enforcement request against you. See

WP:AE. Jehochman

talk:Jehochman|Talk]] 16:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

What on earth is going on here? I appeal to all fair-minded editors: do not allow Misplaced Pages to go down this route. Perscurator (talk) 21:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Perscurator, this is being discussed on some other pages: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard#Problem_with_recurring_sock_puppetry., Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet_investigations/Huntdowntheconspiracists, and Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#Perscurator. --Cs32en (talk) 22:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I checked it out.

Respectful and serious coverage of the nanothermite residue article in reliable sources in Danmark

Who are "conspiracy theory" (their word) editors referring to? (weird page name)

English sources only, it was argued

I notice that editors on one page were lobbying for a standard of using ONLY English sources of news or research. Hmmm... this discussion page has an odd atmosphere at times.

There is a large literature about reliability problems of US news: take Fallows, Postman, Jamieson, McChesney and Mitchell.

It probably requires no stating that that the US news frequently misses huge stories (Europe was not taken in by US WMD stories) and that is why US intelligence agencies officials and (see Clark), and leaders internationally track news around the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihaveabutt (talk • contribs) 14:55, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

A note on reliable sources

Although it is false, the legend has since been repeated by reputable media, such as the BBC (by Alistair Cooke in his Letter from America program), The Guardian, MSNBC, CNN, Time magazine, The New York Times, in several books about Germany written by English-speaking authors, including Norman Davies and Kenneth C. Davis, and is even mentioned in a stand-up show by Eddie Izzard. --Cs32en (talk) 17:31, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Wait a minute! How can we really be sure this is true?? This wiki editor did not provide a single WP:RS source that reported that these sources have been wrong! And even if it was true, the fact that no WP:RS source has reported this proves that this is not notable!! --Cs32en (talk) 17:50, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

It sounds as if you're not editing in WP:AGF, but to prove a point. I fail to see what a speech John F Kennedy made in the 1960s has to do with an article about 9/11 conspiracy theories in the 2000s. Perhaps you can enlighted us?

In any case, do you actually have anything of meaningful substance that needs to be considered? Given that you appear to be advocating a fringe theory not supported by reliable sourses, I'm at a loss as to what you expect to come of this discussion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

If I would have wanted to make a WP:POINT, I would have used the article space and deleted the section in the Ich bin ein Berliner article. Here, I am giving an example. Examples are often easier to understand than theoretical elaborations.

The example illustrates that Misplaced Pages contains much information that is not specifically supported by WP:RS sources. This is because nobody doubts that the information is true. In this case here, nobody has doubted that the paper by Niels Harrit et al. exists, or that it it relevant for the proponents of the fringe theory that the article is describing, per its title, or that it accurately represents what a major part of these proponents are thinking and arguing. Still, it is being argued that one would need to have an exceptional claim to be able to introduce such information (that nobody actually claims to be false). And no, I am not arguing for including a sentence that says "Harrit has got it right, and we have been talking nonsense here for all of the time." (In this case, there are actually a number of WP:RS sources that actually support the claim that the paper exists.) --Cs32en (talk) 06:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

If this is in regard to "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe", there are numerous issues which have already been addressed above. Since you have offered nothing new to the discussion, I fail to see why we should re-open it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Dubious: cited article does not support claim

The Steve Clarke article cited (abstract) does not justify the claim that CD theories are rejected by the mainstream engineering community.

• The article does not claim to document or represent the opinion of mainstream engineering, or indeed engineering at all; it appears in "Episteme: A Journal of Social Epistemology" (link mine).
• One article does not represent the opinion of an entire field
• The full article is not available online without special access, and hence is difficult to check. Surely any mainstream opinion should be widely available online, and hence better (and multiple) sources can be found for this claim.
• Just from the article's abstract, the article would seem to be arguing in favor of the validity of CD theories, since they have persisted and grown over time despite "the hyper-critical atmosphere of the internet has slowed down the development of conspiracy theories" (see Imre Lakatos#Research_programmes for some explanation of the term "Lakotosian research programs" used in the abstract). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Woozle (talk • contribs) 12:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

As you say the cite does not support the claim. rewording or deletion is required. Tony0937 (talk) 15:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Jehochman removed the cite entirely, saying only "Remove cruft - the lede does not need references", which seems rather dismissive. Is there indeed a policy that claims made in an article lede do not need to be sourced? I changed the claim to the more accurate "and some members of the mainstream engineering community" (italics just here to show what was changed). --Woozle (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no support among the mainstream engineering community for controlled demolition. There is no controversy or debate among main stream sources, experts working in their field or academia as to the basic cause of the collapse. There's an abundance of sources for this. RxS (talk) 16:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Since the link also points to and given that there are a number of scientific papers that support the hypothesis this is an untrue statement. Tony0937 (talk) 16:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Nope, the fact that there are a small number of "scientific papers" does not mean that there's is any significant debate among mainstream sources about the cause of the collapse. They are the very essence of fringe sources. The scientific papers you speak of are not reliable or mainstream sources. Please revert the changes you made. RxS (talk) 16:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The "Open Chemical Physics Journal" is a fringe source? --Woozle (talk) 17:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It's one source. It doesn not indicate that there is a debate among mainstream sources. It's a single paper, that's basically self published. It has no impact on the debate about the collapse (there isn't any). You'll need much more than one example. RxS (talk) 17:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay... so The Open Chemical Physics Journal amounts to self-publication, despite being peer reviewed. Who decided that? Why does "just one" source mean that you don't have to back up the claim of mainstream scientific rejection? (The mainstream media are not noted for their accurate portrayal of mainstream science.) How do I know I won't spend all day digging up articles in one peer-reviewed scientific publication after another, only to have you dismiss each one as "non-mainstream"? --Woozle (talk) 17:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It is not just the one article. The only way that you can dismiss them is that they do not conform to your viewpoint. There are at least four peer reviewed articles out at present that support the hypothesis. Tony0937 (talk) 17:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

You're using the term peer review much looser than most people. RxS (talk) 17:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about Tony, but I'm using it because the OCPJ calls itself that. If you believe this to be a misrepresentation, could you point me at the reasons why you believe this? --Woozle (talk) 17:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

If there was a valid debate among mainstream sources it wouldn't be an issue. We both know there isn't. Regardless of how you (or I) feel about coverage of scientific issues in mainstream press they drive how we cover things (along with multiple other sources: scientific press/literature, academia, expert commentary (within their field) etc. One single paper can't drive how we cover things. These theories are considered fringe and do not carry any weight among the sources we draw content from. RxS (talk) 17:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The lack of reasonable coverage in the mainstream media is a problem, yes. There are, however, other sources whose contentions and reputations can be checked. (I'm researching this right now, but it takes time to get meaningful facts together.) My understanding is that many reputable scientists and engineers have tried to publish papers, but that these papers have been largely rejected by the mainstream sci/eng journals without reasonable cause, i.e. not because the science was questionable. I do recall there being at least one other mainstream publication, but it will take me some time to go through my notes. --Woozle (talk) 17:57, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The person who started this thread is arguing that a specific source does not support a claim, despite the fact they are admitting they haven't read the source themselves. I have read it, and I can tell you it advances several arguments against controlled demolition and says that though the theory is vaguely specified, it is hard to believe that it is not a "degenerative research programme" which means we should abandon it. It is definitely not arguing in favour of the validity of the conspiracy theories. Though the author is not an engineer his status as an epistemologist means he is in some sort of position to observe the acceptance of particular theories. The idea that because the article is not readily available it is not a good source is clearly wrong, since the same is true of the majority of academic articles and books.

If you look at the third paragraph you will find a very similar statement, backed with the following (easily accessible) references:

• : "As generally accepted by the community of specialists in structural mechanics and structural engineering (though not by a few outsiders claiming a conspiracy with planted explosives), the failure scenario was as follows" (followed by a statement of the mainstream view)
• : "While there are a handful of Web sites that seek to debunk the claims of Mr. Jones and others in the movement, most mainstream scientists, in fact, have not seen fit to engage them", "There's nothing to debunk", "It's a non-issue", "There's not really disagreement as to what happened for 99 percent of the details", "Hence, in the world of mainstream science, Mr. Jones's hypothesis is more or less dead on the vine."
• : "While the group has collected some interesting data, their hypotheses are largely dismissed by the larger academic world."

As Jechochman said, the lead doesn't actually need any citations for claims which are cited elsewhere, as any citations would be redundant (see WP:LEAD). Trying to assess the level of acceptance in the engineering community ourselfes would be original research, and we should simply state what the sources above are saying - that the idea has little or no support and is rejected. Hut 8.5 18:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Woozle responds

I started this thread. Thank you for your explanation. The links you cite would seem to be at least the beginning of the information I was looking for.

One question: Is there a policy regarding the use of limited-availability sources, especially as evidence of support for a controversial point of view?

I am going to go read those links now. --Woozle (talk) 22:24, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

If by "limited-availability sources" you mean "sources that aren't available for free on the internet" then no, there is no policy forbidding their use, and if there was one we would have to rewrite large portions of Misplaced Pages. If something is genuinely impossible for an interested editor to get at (the work hasn't been published, for instance) then you will run into problems, but that's not the case here. Hut 8.5 06:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Protected for three days

I have protected the article for three days in order to stop the ongoing edit war by multiple editors over the sentence in the lead concerning the stance of the "engineering community". I will also consider imposing WP:ARB9/11 sanctions on any editor who restarts the edit war as soon as the protection elapses or is lifted.  Sandstein  20:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Rejection of mainstream scientific community

Regarding this change , there are mainstream scientific sources rejecting controlled demolition conspiracy theories. Off the top of my head, there's Popular Mechanics and Keith Seffen of Cambridge University's engineering department . Also, to say that the scientific community has "avoided the issue" or to qualify its rejection with "who have looked at the theory" doesn't explain why this conspiracy theory is ignored. Specifically, that it's not worthy of serious study. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Popular Mechanics is hardly a refereed/peer-reviewed scientific journal, and the articles in PM (this page seems to be a hub) were full of holes -- not that you can tell from looking at their site, as they don't have any way to post comments.
• I recognize that it's not the job of Misplaced Pages editors to "prove" anything one way or the other, but it does seem a bit peculiar to claim general rejection by the scientific community when you don't seem to actually have any evidence of this. What is the actual basis of your belief, so that I can read it for myself and end up agreeing with you?
• And finally, by what rule does Misplaced Pages ultimately decide what the truth is, in this or any other instance? --Woozle (talk) 22:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Did Seffen ever get that paper to pass peer review? If he did I was not aware of it. I remember that there was a big hopla about him going to publish and then it not passing peer review. Tony0937 (talk) 22:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It's published in: ASCE Journal of Engineering Mechanics 134, 2 (2008), p. 125-32. As, for example, the statements included in the peer-reviewed article written by the authors of the "Purdue Study" differ significantly from the press release distributed earlier, so it might be important to check the actual content of the peer-reviewed article. --Cs32en (talk) 22:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Being a peer-reviewed, scientific journal is good, but not a requirement to be a reliable source. If it was a requirement, most (if not all) the cites in the article would need to be removed and this article probably wouldn't even exist. What is required (in a nutshell) is that articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Popular Mechanics meets all of these requirements.
• Perhaps the wording can be improved, I'm not sure.
• Per WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Scholars, Architects & Engineers respond to NIST

The article currently states: "Following the NIST final draft on Building 7 in August 2008, a group of demolition proponents submitted a response challenging several points of the draft.." Not only is it currently cited to a fringe source, not only is it currently cited to a blog of a fringe source, but the link is broken. Do we have a reliable source that actually covers the 9/11 conspiracy theorists' response to the NIST's final draft? If not, we should remove this line from the article. We are under no obligation to cover what 9/11 conspiracy theorists say unless reliable sources cover it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Cs32en: Thanks for your recent edit but it's still not a reliable source. If we can't find a reliable source for this, it needs to be removed from the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

A Quest For Knowledge, Misplaced Pages is not collection of excerpts from the media. We often use WP:RS, i.e., reliable sources, because of the presumption that the information they report is correct. There is nothing wrong with using other sources, if the verifiability of the information is not in doubt. With regard to notability, there are any number of pieces of information all over Misplaced Pages, on which no mainstream, or otherwise WP:RS source, has ever reported. Please ask the community whether all these sources should be removed. --Cs32en (talk) 15:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

What I always say is that if something isn't covered by reliable sources, that's usually a good sign of something that probably should not be in an article. Yes, there are many poorly referenced articles on Misplaced Pages. I've decided to focus on ones dealing with 9/11 conspiracy theories. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

If something hasn't been covered by any third-party sources then it probably isn't significant to include here. Please don't claim that "another article says X, therefore it's fine for this one to do so". If you want to change the policies and guidelines in question then propose a change on the relevant talk page. Hut 8.5 16:40, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Using YouTube as a source

Generally speaking, YouTube videos are not considered reliable sources. The only exception that I'm aware of this is in the situation where 1) a reliable source such as BBC News creates a YouTube channel and 2) The reliable source publishes something to the effect that they have an official YouTube channel. Can someone please check to see if this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvx904dAw0o was uploaded by CBS News (assuming they even have an official account) and not just some guy on the Internet? If the latter, it should be removed from the article. I do not have access to YouTube right now. Thanks! A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

1. "Scientists, Scholars, Architects & Engineers respond to NIST". 2008-09-15. Retrieved 2008-09-17.

• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists