Talk:Varoujan Garabedian - Misplaced Pages

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Removing evidence

Artaxiad, before you revert the page, you shall discuss your changes and provide an explanation why relevant referenced information is just being removed. Garabedian was one of the leaders of ASALA, and came to prominence carrying out attacks on behalf of this organizations. So, you should not be removing this material. Atabek 09:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because its referenced doesn't mean it stays, I checked the references there irrelevant no mention of Varoujan what so ever that was my purpose for the removal, thanks. Please check them yourself or at least clarify or else it counts as original research, because they don't mention him, also not reliable sources. Artaxiad 16:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The references provided only state that ASALA was considered as terrorist organization by US State Department, which is absolutely relevant. It only adds to well-sourced information in the article. Garabedian was one of the main leaders of ASALA, in fact, he was even suspected of being Hagop Hagopian, whose claimed murder in Athens remained in controversy. Garabedian would not be known otherwise if he wasn't a functionary and executor of ASALA's agenda. Atabek 08:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Corrected with minor edit the title of category Armenian Terrorism. The article should refer to that, while category is still there. Atabek 18:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Evidence

Atabek do you have any sources confirming his membership in ASALA? Vartanm 20:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

hri.org source claims to gotten the news from Noyan-Tapan News agency. When searching the archives of NT for the said news article, claiming that he was greeted at a highest state level, I couldn't find anything. ,,Vartanm 20:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Atabek I removed all 3 sources because they were irrelevant to the article. None of them proved what you were claiming. Vartanm 20:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Vartan, first of all, you should not remove sources without discussion. What do you mean it's irrelevant? The person was caught and charged with terrorist attack, killing scores of people at Orly Airport. He served jail sentence for it. Why is there a confusion about the facts and/or references being removed? Adding everything back. Also, I don't understand why Fedayee removed the Turkophobia tag. Was ASALA created and Garabedian committed his attacks out of love of Turkey? Atabek 11:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

First source.

ASALA had not conducted terrorist attacks in several years, however, and it is unclear whether the attack was carried out by ASALA, individual Armenians with no terrorist affiliation, or another terrorist group--such as the Kurdistan Workers' Party--using Yanikian as a covername. ASALA has been inactive since 1986.

Second source.

A Report on the PKK and Terrorism. what does PKK has to do with ASALA?

Third source

On December 19, in Budapest, unknown assailants fired several rounds at a car carrying Bedrettin Tunabas. unknown means it could have been my grandmother who was shooting.

You see Atabek none of the sources you provided say ASALA was named as a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department Vartanm 15:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Garabedyan was greeted at highest level in Armenia. Even Armenian human rights activists criticized the Armenian government for that. I forgot the name of the guy (I think it was Danielyan), but I can find the quote from Armenian sources about this. I think his info should remain in the article. Grandmaster 17:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Vartanm, stop removing references and engaging in edit wars. The reference you remove from HRI, without reading, contains 1997 Department of State Report on Patterns of Global terrorism, which clearly, includes the sentence: "...a covername used by the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA), terrorist organization during the 1980s". Another reference you removed with 1991 State Department Briefing says:

Q An Armenian terrorist organization, ASALA, 6 years

later, they started shooting again -- the Turkish diplomat in Budapest. Do you have anything about that?

MR. SNYDER: Yes. On December 19, in Budapest, unknown

assailants fired several rounds at a car carrying Bedrettin Tunabas, the Turkish Ambassador to Hungary. Fortunately, the Ambassador, his security guard, and his driver all escaped injury. The attack was reportedly claimed by ASALA -- that is, the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia."

With all due assuming of good faith, I think you're clearly engaging in an edit war taking advantage of being excluded from the recent ArbCom case. I shall inform you, that per ArbCom decisions, the ArbCom case is open ended, and can be reopened at any time with inclusion of new users clearly engaging in an edit war. So follow the guidelines, discuss your edits and stop removing references, especially with regards to information pertaining to indisputable terrorist activities. Atabek 16:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, your accusation that I blind reverted this article is idiotic. My suggestion is that you read the discussion page and take notice that I've read all 3 sources and provided answers why the sources were misleading. And if you read the article you will see that I didn't removed but replaced your misleading sources with a source coming from US State department not HRI. VartanM 17:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Vartan, watch your language when discussing on talk page, or get punished for violating . You have been warned. You will put back the reference to "meeting at highest state level". That's exactly what one of the references, namely RFE/RL article, which you failed to read, says:

Meeting in Yerevan on 4 May with Varoujan Garabedian, a former member of ASALA (the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia), Prime Minister Andranik Markarian expressed his "joy" at Garabedian's release from a French jail where he served almost 18 years of a life sentence for his alleged role in the 1983 bombing of the Turkish Airlines Office at Ory airport, Noyan Tapan and RFE/RL's Yerevan bureau reported. Garabedian, who was born in Syria, was released on the condition that he be expelled to Armenia. The French daily "Liberation" reported at the time of Garabedian's release last month that Yerevan Mayor Robert Nazarian had pledged to provide him with employment and accommodation.

Meeting by Prime Minister and special accomodation by the Mayor, is not any criminal released from jail gets. Atabek 19:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, perhaps you should be aware of , you're the first one who accused me of not reading, I only responded to your attack. And again you failed to read the discussion, if you read the discussion you would've seen that your source at hri.org refers to Noyan-Tapan news agency. And when searching the archives of said news agency nothing comes up under Varoujan Garabedian or ASALA during the time period provided. VartanM 19:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I am sorry for your persistence, I will let independent judges to decide whether the use of the word "idiotic" is appropriate in response to assertion that you haven't read. The source I brought above is actually from Radio Liberty and not HRI, the HRI source cited the State Department report. Which once more proves that you haven't familiarized yourself with (or plainly haven't read) any of the references. Radio Liberty source cites not only Noyan Tapan but also French newspaper Liberation, and quite honestly there is more ground to trust Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty as a leading independent media source than Armenian Noyan Tapan agency which removes the reference that does not serve limited interests from its archives. Atabek 20:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Why is it that when I click on RFE/RL link it takes me to HRI.org. I think I have proven my point that you use misleading sources. VartanM 23:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

And I guess your point was puny, because I just added the link directly to RFE/RL archive with the same article. Atabek 00:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Category edits

Moving anti-Turkism to Turcophobia category. Also, the person was convicted and served sentence for a terrorist attack, no need to remove terrorist category here. Atabek 06:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source that says he is a convicted terrorist? I'm removing the terrorist category until you provide sources.VartanM 07:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

It would not hurt if you once read the references on the page before reverting them. Second reference to Agence France Presse article, starts with: "Le terroriste arménien, Varoujan Garbidjian...". Atabek 07:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

This is english wikipedia and I don't speak french. Secondly netarmenie can call John Smith(random name) terrorist. it doesn't mean he is one. I'll rephrase my question, Do you have reliable sources that confirm he was sentenced for terrorism? If no the category should be removed. VartanM 07:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Vartan, the fact that you don't speak French, and I do, does not justify your attempt to disqualify the reference from international news agency, and especially the one like AFP. If you can't speak French, well, grab a French English dictionary and translate "Le terroriste arménien" into English. I doubt you even need dictionary for that. Regarding your confusion, "Terrorism is a term used to describe violence or other harmful acts". The person in question was caught and convicted with a bomb attack which killed 8 individuals at Orly airport, and killing civilians is most definitely a harmful act. My honest opinion, don't waste your time. Garabedian was caught, convicted and served sentence for his terrorist attack. Rather try to concentrate on other articles, where you can make a constructive contribution. Atabek 07:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how you can exclude a person who exploded a bomb in the airport and killed many innocent people from the Terrorism category. If we have such a category, this person belongs there. Grandmaster 07:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster your reply is nothing more than original research. VartanM 07:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Vartanm, seems like you are disregarding references, edit warring and POV pushing regardless of our attempts to discuss edits, which actually don't need any discussion since those are referenced facts. Well, if I were you, I would follow the advise Augustgrahl recently gave you, as you're firmly on the path to ArbCom with this kind of editing behavior. Atabek 07:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, if I were you, instead of reading other peoples talkpages, I would be looking for a reliable source to confirm my claim, because only one here pushing POV is you. VartanM 08:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

There are references from Agence France Presse and Radio Free Europe to prove the point that the man has committed, was charged with and convicted with terrorist attacks. So category terrorism quite naturally fits here. Atabek 21:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a source that says he was convicted as a terrorist. VartanM 23:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I am providing it again as was done already numerously above : "Le terroriste arménien, Varoujan Garbidjian..." (Agence France Presse, 4/24/2001). Further attempts to remove edits, supported by credible evidence, will result in request made for arbitration or dispute resolution. Perhaps a third party, can also help you translate the word "la terroriste arménien" into English to finally come to understanding why the category terrorism is appropriate on this page. Thanks. Atabek 19:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

A news article from a french-armenian web portal Net-Armenie.com, is that the best you could find?. Can I ask you couple of questions? Do you consider reliable? Can I use netarmenie.com in other articles as a source? --VartanM 19:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The news source is Agence France Presse, which is a world-known news agency. NetArmenie is only on whose website the news appears. But I guess you're determined to engage in stubborn revert warring, very unfortunate for you. It's pointless for you to remove this category. There is nothing wrong with categorizing a person as a terrorist, when he was, in fact, convicted and served sentence for killing handful of people in a terrorist attack, and was a member of terrorist organization. And it's very sad that some cannot move beyond bigotted positions to recognize the facts or gain some credibility in their stance. ASALA failed for the same reason. Atabek 21:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Atabek I think you are unaware of Misplaced Pages:No_original_research and Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons policies. You have no argument here, you're only talking about your beliefs about ASALA and its actions. You need to provide reliable sources that say that Varoujan Garabedian was convicted and served time as a terrorist. Because if Government of France couldn't prove that he was in fact a terrorst, you're gonna have a very hard time proving that by yourself. VartanM 03:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what's OR about indicating Agence France Presse referenced material. It's a French news agency. Also, I don't know why you keep removing references to U.S. State Department. True ASALA is now defunct organization, but it didn't change its nature at the time when it was functional neither does this change the truth about U.S. State Departments qualification of it. Atabek 06:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Your source is not from AFP its from netarmenie.com and if you think that netarmenie.com is a reliable source, I will gladly use it in many other articles. Secondly the reference that was removed takes me to U.S Navy site, and your claim is U.S State Department. Department of Defense and State Department are two different branches of the US government. VartanM 09:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with U.S. Navy site referencing U.S. Department of State and NetArmenie referencing Agence France Presse? Are you to claim here that either U.S. Navy or NetArmenia were lying about original sources? Atabek 17:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Reference toying

Vartanm, please, stop playing with references, removing or adding them. Your removal and purturbation (title changing) of originally sourced information from the article is essentially an attempt to misrepresent information. This article needs new sources, not removal of the existing ones.Atabek 18:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, the refrence comes from NPS.edu. I only corrected the title. It is you whos misrepresenting the sources. As for NetArmenie.com The source is not reliable and is not third party. If you have a direct source from Patterns of Global Terrorism you are more than welcome to replace the exsiting one. If not the source should be named correctly. --VartanM 19:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, this is perhaps 7th time (and I guess I will incorporate this into ArbCom report as well) I am reminding you that "NetArmenie source" is Agence France Presse article published on NetArmenie website. NPS.edu stands for the Naval Postgraduate School (NPS), and the report cited on this official website is that of the State Department. Thanks. Atabek 21:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, You do understand that NetArmenie.com is not a reliable third party source right? WP:BLP clearly states

Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, a biography will violate the No original research and Verifiability policies, and could lead to libel claims. Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all.

AFP on other hand is third-party and reliable. So a direct reference to the original source is more appropriate. I am removing the netArmenie.com refrence per WP:BLP VartanM 01:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide

Andranik, do you have a reference that he was from a family of refugees from Armenian Genocide? If yes please added to the article. --VartanM 15:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I removed "(not proven)" extra, as it's not what appears in the source and obviously Garabedian was found guilty, thus served the prison term. Atabek 03:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This person fits perfectly into the category, as he killed passengers of Turkish airlines just for being ethnic Turks. Grandmaster 10:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed the person, who was found guilty and sentenced for mass killing civilians just for their Turkish identity, is clearly anti-Turk. There is no reason to remove this category. Atabek 21:57, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a source, that says he carried out the attack because of his anti-Turkish views. Anything short of that is called OR. VartanM 21:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, anyone targeting a group of civilians of certain ethnicity abroad, is anti-that ethnicity. Your statement disputing this is baseless, just as questioning anti-American nature of al-Qaeda or Osama bin Laden would be. Your edit warring, rather than discussion path is quite disruptive. Atabek 22:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No, Atabek, what you wrote, is an OR! al-Qaeda recognized himself as an anti-American organization. And ASALA was a leftist organization targeting officials. And during the Orly attack targeting an economical object were killed French civilians, so what? And as I know its not a fact if the Orly attack's author was Garabedian, it wasnt proved by court... Andranikpasha 12:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits

I attempted to clean up the text, make it read better, and remove duplicated material. Some of what I wrote has been changed by Grandmaster. I have changed one of them back: the actual source, the source used as a reference for that sentence, uses the word "alleged". So we need more sources before it can be removed. I also have a bit of doubt about two other changes. Firstly - he was a Syrian Armenian, that's for certain. But is he one now, given that he doesn't live there and his (presumably) permanent residency in Armenia will have required him to adopt Armenian citizeship? I'd also say you can't bomb a "counter" any more than you can bomb a "table" or a "chair" - to me it sounds silly in English. If it was a check-in desk, then let's just say that. Also, there is no need to make obvious wikilinks - I think everyone knows the meaning of the word imprisonment! Meowy 17:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

The RFE/RL uses "expelled" not "deported". Just use the language that was used in the source. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 06:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

"Armenian bomber, deported from France, hails 'miracle' homecoming". Deported is the correct terminology. (But if you want to be pedantic, and make yourself look like an ass, I'll use both words and put a citation against each word, and a comment in the edit summary and an invisible comment in the code saying that such silly wording is there becasue you wanted it there. Meowy 12:18, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, check-in desk is better. And yes, now he is the citizen of Armenia, lives in the town of Dilijan, and is quite proud of what he did. But at the time of committing the crime he was a Syrian citizen. Here are 2 reports of Agence France Presse, they call him a terrorist and a nationalist, and his crime is not alleged, it was proven in the court of law:

Agence France Presse -- English

April 24, 2001, Tuesday

Armenian terrorist freed and deported from France

SECTION: International news

LENGTH: 149 words

DATELINE: PARIS, April 24

An Armenian nationalist convicted of a 1983 bomb attack at Orly airport in Paris which killed eight people has been freed and deported to Armenia, French justice officials said Tuesday. Varoujan Garbidjian, 47, a former member of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA), was released after serving 17 years of a life sentence, and put on a plane to Yerevan on Monday.

Garbidjian -- a Syrian national -- was found guilty in 1985 of planting a bomb at the Turkish Airlines desk at Orly airport, and perpetrating the deadliest terrorist attack in France of the last 20 years.

His lawyer Gerard Tcholakian said the release was prompted by his "remarkable" behaviour in prison, and by the changed political climate -- with the establishment of an independent Armenian state, and the French parliament's recent recognition of an Armenian genocide.

Agence France Presse -- English

May 3, 2001, Thursday

Armenian bomber, deported from France, hails 'miracle' homecoming

SECTION: International news

LENGTH: 138 words

DATELINE: YEREVAN, May 3

An Armenian nationalist deported from France after serving 17 years in jail for a 1983 bomb attack at a Paris airport which killed eight people hailed his homecoming as a "miracle" Thursday. Varoujan Garbidjian, 47, a former member of the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA), was expelled last month from France, where he had been serving a life sentence.

"It's a real miracle finally to return to my homeland after long and indescribable suffering ... I'm going to dedicate my life to my country, and ask for Armenian citizenship," Garbidjian, a Syrian national, told a press conference here.

Garbidjian was found guilty in 1985 of planting a bomb at the Turkish Airlines desk at Orly airport, and perpetrating the deadliest terrorist attack in France of the last 20 years.

Grandmaster 10:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Fine, another source being more specific about his guilt is all that was needed - though RFE/RL using the word "alleged" seems curious, suggesting that there is more to this than has been said. (Are there sources doubting his guilt, or doubting that the degree of his involvement was as great as the court decided?). Meowy 12:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

No, only the fact that during the trial he denied his earlier confession. But he was convicted by the jury, in the court of justice. France is considered to be a democratic country. Also, he admits now that he perpetrated the attack. He boasts that he killed 10 Turks, which is not true (out of 8 people he killed only 2 were Turks), but even if it was, why should a normal person be proud of it? Here's his interview to an Armenian newspaper :

Лучшие сыны нашего народа отдали свою жизнь, а приспособленцы присваивают их заслуги. Акция в аэропорту «Орли» была осуществлена в ответ на казнь (путем повешения) Левона Экмекджяна в Стамбуле в 1982 г. Мы планировали взорвать самолет «Турецких авиалиний», которым должны были лететь высокопоставленные представители спецслужб Турции, а также генералы и дипломаты. В результате осуществленной нами акции погибли 10 и получили ранение 60 турок.

The best sons of our people sacrificed their lives, and hangers on get credit for their deeds. The action at the Orly airport was carried out in response to the execution (by hanging) of Levon Ekmekdzhyan in Istanbul in 1982. We planned to blow up the Turkish Airlines plane, which was to transport high-ranking representatives of the Turkish secret services, as well as generals and diplomats. As a result of the action that we carried out 10 Turks were killed and 60 were injured.

Grandmaster 12:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason to remove NY Times reference to Garabedian's admission of conducting the attack. So I restored it back. Atabəy (talk) 02:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

He was found guilty of perpetrating the crime by the court of justice, and he himself admits that he did it. Read his interview above. What is here to dispute? Grandmaster 05:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Gazifikator, stop reverting the article. If Garabedian did not plant the bomb, then who did? He got life in prison for that. If you have sources saying that it was not him who planted the bomb, then cite them, otherwise stop edit warring. Grandmaster 06:26, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Gazifikator, it would be good if you made some use of the talk page, before reverting. Garabedian was found guilty of planting the bomb. This is from France Presse report, which I quoted above in full:

Garbidjian was found guilty in 1985 of planting a bomb at the Turkish Airlines desk at Orly airport, and perpetrating the deadliest terrorist attack in France of the last 20 years.

It clearly says that Garabedian was found guilty of committing this crime. Grandmaster 07:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Any links? Gazifikator (talk) 11:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

These are not online sources. You need to go to a library or use a database, such as ProQuest. Grandmaster 14:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

How can I find a France Presse report in a library? You're using a living person-related very serious accusation without any realistic sources while other sources provided are using more neutral wording. Gazifikator (talk) 14:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

You can login to Lexis-Nexis or Pro-Quest. But I provided the texts of the reports in full just above, to save other people time. Grandmaster 15:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

So do not add dubious accusiation to a biography of a living person. As we see his role was alleged, no facts it was him who planted the bomb and we have not the decision by court. You better use available sources for such damaging info added in a BLP. He was a leading member, ideologist and responsible one, not a bomber it's why he was freed by French authorities to back to his homeland and was welcomed here even in level of PM. Gazifikator (talk) 08:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Investigating editor conduct on this article; input solicited.

~~All,—~~

There is currently a request for Arbitration enforcement relating to this article outstanding. In the course of processing it, it will probably be necessary for me to consider issuing warnings—or possibly editor sanctions, per the Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 Arbitration case—to any editors posing a problematic influence on this, or peripheral, articles.

~~I'd therefore invite editors with constructive, germane input to provide it on that thread (direct link). I'm also privately contactable, via this page.~~

~~Thanks,~~

~~AGK 18:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)~~

I've now processed and closed the arbitration enforcement thread. My thanks go to those users that did offer some insight. Regards, AGK 21:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

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