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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by FRS (talk | contribs) at 23:24, 28 November 2005 (→Is "Judeofascism" (the term) widely enough used to warrant an article). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Votes

I think somewhere at the top of the page we should describe standardized wording for votes, particularly given that the rather contradictory verbs endorse (the deletion) and oppose (the undeletion request) amount to the same thing. Perhaps stick with, undelete and keep deleted. Marskell 14:30, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

There is already a yellow box describing precisely that. In the change to Deletion review, the notion of reviewing a not-delete debate was introduced, and the old wording doesn't really fit that. -Splash 04:42, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah yes. To qualify then, we should follow the wording as presented. (And perhaps we should tidy the top of the page). Marskell 04:50, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Archived to history

(i.e. deleted)
If I trimmed any current threads, a firm spanking is always welcome. - brenneman 06:12, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Judeofascism (term)

I created this section following the instructions of Doc who wrote:

"Any argument for undeletion, or for a new article by this name, would not depend on the contents of the article, but on establishing, by fresh evidence, that the term itself was notable. Go, construct a case on the talk page - if you can make one (which I doubt) then request undeletion. The issue in question is not the article's content, but whether this term merits an article.--Doc "

How this issue came up

For a short time, there existed an article Judeofascim ]. It seems to have quietly existed as a redirect for some months, but within a day of having content added to it the page was nominated for AfD and a week later it was gone. I have no idea what the content was, but have no reason to doubt it was an Unencyclopedic slur.

More recently, an article Judeofascism (term) was created by editors who believe that Islamofascism (term) should be deleted (an opinion I do not share). The new article lasted less than two days. ] My involvement in this second article consisted of two edits: the first was to revert someone's redirect where I commented: "If you think its nonsense, put it up for AfD, don't unilaterally redirect" and the second was to nominate it for AfD myself ] with the comment "Rv redirect, & nominate for AfD-this article deserves an up or down vote, plze stop redirecting."

At that time I was unaware of the previous existence of Judeofascism.

My nomination lasted approximately seven minutes before a speedy deletion by Doc.]

In my AfD nomination I wrote:

I believe this article deserves an up or down vote and a chance to be sourced & NPOV'd.

Nominator votes Weak keep. Article obviously needs improvement, but just cancelling without a vote or chance to improve it seems too much like censoring an unpopular POV.

I stand by the above comment, and although I don't care very much whether there is ever an article titled Judeofascism (term). I DO care about due WP process and that there should be even-handed treatment of controversial subjects.

So lets turn to the substance of the issue:

Is Judeofascism identical to Judeofascism (term)

Less than a week ago, SlimVirgin wrote on what was then the Islamofascism talk page the following:

I'm going to move this to Islamofascism (term) to hammer home that this page is about the WORD Islamofascism, and not whether the word actually refers to anything, because it's not our job to decide that. (And if it does refer to anything real, it has nothing to do with Hitler!)

I thought that was a good idea. I also believe its an argument for treating an AfD on Judeofascism (term) separately from the old AfD on Judeofascism.

Is "Judeofascism" (the term) widely enough used to warrant an article

Well, that's something honest people of good will could disagree about, but at the moment there is no forum for that discussion. My contribution to this debate follows:

1. BrandonYusufToropov provided one list of citations:

2. If, as I believe, Judeofascism = "Jewish Fascism" the list of citations is much larger, for example:

2(a). List of 34 books Googlebooks returns when searching for "Jewish Fascism"

2(b). Excerpts from NYT articles using the term "Jewish Fascism"

2(b)(1) "The Revolt Of Israel's Center", The New York Times July 13, 2005, by THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

"What is playing out in Israel today is a huge drama in which this resurgent Israeli center, having awakened to just what a danger the extremist settlers pose for Israel's future, is finally confronting them. And the settlers, like long-indulged children who are finally being spanked, are becoming unhinged. This is a dangerous time because the settlers, who do not really respect the authority of the Israeli state, will try anything.

"When I was in Israel two weeks ago, a group of teenage settlers, inspired by a witches' brew of Jewish fascism and messianism, took over an abandoned Arab home next to Gush Katif and scrawled on the side in Hebrew: Muhammad Is a Pig. When the Palestinians next door saw it, they began stoning the house. Some settler boys got hold of a Palestinian teenager and started pounding him with rocks, an act the Israeli Army described as an attempted lynching. The boy was saved by an Israeli soldier and a journalist who dragged him behind a wall.""

2(b)(2) NYT Book Review, November 27, 1991, by HERBERT MITGANG of the book Benevolence and Betrayal Five Italian Jewish Families Under Fascism By Alexander Stille

""While I was researching the book," Mr. Stille reveals, "several Italian Jews tried to dissuade me from writing about the phenomenon of Jewish Fascism, out of a fear of stirring renewed anti-Semitism." Fortunately, he disagreed, deciding that their behavior during the Fascist era ran the full gamut from the foolish and contemptible to the wise and heroic. The result is "Benevolence and Betrayal," an achievement that deserves to stand next to the most insightful fiction about life and death under Fascism."

2(b)(2) NYT, December 14, 1986 SCHOLARS PRAISE ITALY'S ROLE IN HELPING JEWS IN WORLD WAR II BYLINE: By JOSEPH BERGER

"Though in retrospect it may seem puzzling, large numbers of Jews sympathized with the Fascist party in its early days just as did most middle-class Italians who were inspired by Mussolini's imperial dreams.

A Parisian writer, Alain Elkann, told the conference that a novel he has written on a Jewish Fascist was partially based on a distant uncle who supported Mussolini until the dictator's death. Even in the period of the anti-Jewish laws, Mr. Elkann said, the uncle believed that Mussolini, for pragmatic reasons, was being cooperative with Hitler and that at the end of the war he would restore Jewish rights."

2(b)(3) NYT, August 14, 1984 KAHANE IN ISRAELI PARLIAMENT AFTER DISPUTE OVER THE OATH, By JAMES FERON

"Outside the Parliament building, groups that do not normally become involved in politics as well as Israelis who have protested in the past against the occupation of the West Bank and the war in Lebanon joined in the protest demonstration. Most said they were frightened by the support that enabled Rabbi Kahane to be elected to Parliament. He received 26,000 votes.

"Shevah Weiss, a member of the Labor Alignment, said before the parliamentary ceremony began: This is my personal demonstration against Jewish fascism. I'm afraid Kahane is a symptom of a not-so-narrow phenomenon in Israeli society.

"Standing to next him, Gideon Spiro, a former paratrooper, said: Kahane did not just come from the sky. He says brutally what a lot of Israelis say quietly. He's a fruit of the occupation."

3. Use of the term by Russian political figure Gennady Zyuganov

"Following this, at a November 7 Communist Rally, Zyuganov shared a platform with several party members who vowed to defend Makashov. And the major Communist daily newspaper Sovetskaya Rossiya published an article by its Editor in Chief on November 10 attacking "the loathsome doctrine of ‘Jewish fascism’" which is being created by a "handful of oligarchic mass media." Russian liberals, with several Jewish figures given as examples, were accused of "a dreadful genocide launched against the Russians which makes the Holocaust and the gas chambers seem pale by comparison." And on November 11, the Communists sent a letter to the government demanding oversight committees to regulate the media which reflect "Russian society in demographic, ethnic, political and other terms," and "pro-Israel interpretation." Thirteen Deputies signed a letter calling Makashov a "patriot" and claiming that Jewish bankers and politicians were humiliating Russians. "

4. Use of the term by Israeli Arab Knesset member Ahmad Taibi

Speaking of "Uzi Cohen, a member of Ariel Sharon's right-wing party and a deputy mayor of the town of Raanana" the article reports:

"Cohen's racist ideas have drawn strong reactions from Palestinian leaders in Israel. Israeli Arab Knesset member Ahmad Taibi described Cohen as representing "Israel's ugly face".

"This man espouses Jewish fascism and he is trying to foster his venomous ideas, and I must say he is achieving remarkable success," Taibi told Aljazeera.net.

"The idea of ethnic cleansing is no longer confined to the far-right parties in Israel; many in the Likud support ethnic cleansing.""

unsigned comment by user:FRS

This is a well-written synopsis but I'm not sure why you posted it here instead of on the project page where the actual discussion is taking place. I see Doc's comment but I believe he/she was referring to the Talk page of Judeofascism (or perhaps Judeofascism (term)) and that, given how much the related discussion further down the page has grown, that it may no longer be the best recommendation. I'd recommend incorporating your comments in the existing discussion.

For the most part, the Discussion page is reserved for comments on the workings or failings of the Deletion Review process generally, not for discussion of specific cases. Comments left here are likely to be overlooked or ignored. Rossami (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. I did as you suggested. FRS 23:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)