Misplaced Pages

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This article was nominated for deletion on 20 June 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Chiropractic controversy and criticism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Chiropractic controversy and criticism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

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Rewrite

Since I had some time I have rewritten the article. I suggest a better title such as chiropractic controversy. QuackGuru (talk) 05:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

That's what the current content describes, and the title should match the contents. Be bold. Good going. This article can form the basis for a much larger article. I note that you have bolded controversy and criticism, and they should likely be part of the title. Hmmmm.....maybe Chiropractic controversies and criticism or some such beast? You can just move the article to the new title. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hughgr's edit changing this back into a redirect. I agree that the article as written was a POV fork. QuackGuru had, for example, added the following: "Evidence-based guidelines are supported by one end of an ideological continuum among chiropractors; the other end employs antiscientific reasoning and unsubstantiated claims ... that are ethically suspect when they let practitioners maintain their beliefs to patients' detriment." This sentence has been discussed extensively at the Chiropractic article. QuackGuru has been involved in those discussions, and it has been explained that this violates NPOV by stating as if it's fact the opinion that something is "antiscientific" and that something is "ethically suspect". Whether something is "ethically suspect" is always opinion, not fact, even if it's something clear such as that it's wrong to steal: see WP:ASF. Whether chiropractors' reasoning is "antiscientific" is also not established as fact but only stated as opinion. All this has been explained to QuackGuru in previous discussions at Talk:Chiropractic, and the Chiropractic page uses prose attribution to make it clear that Misplaced Pages is describing what's asserted in reliable sources, not endorsing those judgements itself. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 16:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Then the solution is to word it (the whole thing, not just that one instance) in an NPOV manner by using attibution to the very notable and RS, not delete it after the wishes of chiropractor Hughgr. The subject is too large to be contained in the chiropractic article simply because of space issues. It wouldn't be welcome there either, as the deletionism of Hughgr and other chiropractors and chiro advocates has abundantly shown in the past. They don't tolerate much documented criticism in the main article. This leaves a large gaping hole (the elephant in the corner) in the main article, since the profession has been extremely controversial throughout its history. That aspect of its history isn't dealt with much at all. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Note that the current contents (before this latest redirect) did not match the title, and the article was just about to be moved to an appropriate title. These contents did not match the spot the redirect has pointed to. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This page is a stub. It took a number of years to improve the main page. This can be written like Aspartame controversy. QuackGuru (talk) 19:04, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Fylsee/BullRangifer, still commenting on the contributor and not the contributions I see.... It should not matter that I am a chiro or that you are a chiro-skeptic. After all these years, I would have thought you would have picked up on that by now...--Hughgr (talk) 22:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Obvious POV fork. I believe this article has been deleted before on the same grounds. -- Levine2112 22:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Did you see the Aspartame controversy page. QuackGuru (talk) 22:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Levine2112, THIS article hasn't been deleted, since it's a different article. Unfortunately the way it was created (initially using the same title as a previously deleted article) has caused some confusion. Look at this with different glasses, IOW forget the old article and its history. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The previous article was never deleted. It survived AFD. QuackGuru (talk) 23:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Redirect

Should we redirect the page or keep it like the Aspartame controversy page. QuackGuru (talk) 22:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

we should redirect the page, or simply delete it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:16, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Would you like me to AFD this page. I could start the AFD discussion for you or you could ask an admin to do a procederal AFD. QuackGuru (talk) 23:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

If there is a issue with the page bring it up. No explanantion was given why anyone would consider this page to be a fork. QuackGuru (talk) 18:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Vaccination

See discussion at User talk:Coppertwig#FV.

I'm not sure I can access the source for this statement about vaccination, but it sounds rather effusive and I suspect it may be more of an opinion than a verifiable fact (WP:ASF): "one of the most effective public health measures in history". The ref used at the Chiropractic article for a statement about vaccination says "Although most public health authorities would agree that vaccination constitutes one of the most cost-effective infectious disease control measures of the last century, few, if any, would argue that there are no problems associated with their use." I suggest the following wording (since this article is to be longer than Chiropractic): "generally considered one of the most cost-effective infectious disease control measures, although not problem-free", to replace the wording I quoted earlier in this paragraph. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Although not problem free is failed verification in that context and is a minority point. QuackGuru (talk) 19:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by failed verification. "not problem-free" is my summary of the wording in the source "few, if any, would argue that there are no problems associated with their use". Do you think it's an inaccurate summary? Can you suggest another summary of those words? How about "not free of problems"? And I don't know why you call it a minority point; it says "although few would argue that", implying that almost all public health authorities agree that there are problems. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:47, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Wasn't this rejected at the main article. Only a few would argue is clearly a minor point. QuackGuru (talk) 19:58, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Few arguing that there are no problems implies that most accept that there are problems. That's therefore the majority view: that it's not free of problems. The idea that it's free of problems is the minority view (or nobody's view, possibly: "if any"). How about sticking more closely to the wording of the source? That's often a way to overcome disagreement. How about "generally considered one of the most cost-effective infectious disease control measures, although few would argue that it is free of problems." This is a concession to the anti-vaccination POV, since I'm leaving out "if any".

I don't remember this wording having been discussed previously at the main article. (See my comment on this at my talk page.) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Which ref are you reading. QuackGuru (talk) 20:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Busse 2005, Chiropractic Antivaccination Arguments, ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:41, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Where is the ref in the article. QuackGuru (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

For some unknown reason the sentence Copptertwig objected to has vanished. I think this was the reason. I don't understand. I thought Coppertwig made the edit but to my suprise it was another editor. QuackGuru (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Need for attribution

To cut down on the amount of (future) conflict here, I think it is imperative that this article be absolutely NPOV and uses plenty of attribution for every opinion, and even for many facts. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Prose attribution, i.e. not just giving a footnote, but saying in the sentences who said what. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:43, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I added attribution as suggested. QuackGuru (talk) 19:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

History

Now that I've thought about it (which I should have done sooner..) I think it's unfortunate that we "moved" this article, rather than just copied it. We've gotten the whole history of another article with it, and that's not good. This is a different subject. We should get the history cleared, except that that would remove the history of the previous article, which wouldn't be good either. What's the right way to do this? Can we temporarily (a few minutes) move this back, delete this current title, short history and all, and then copy the contents over here and start this article title up again? if we can get an admin with the right tools to help, we should be able to do this within a few minutes time. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

It is a different article but I did use a couple of refs from the previous article and part of the first sentence. My sandbox showed I did use a tiny portion the previous article to form this newer article. QuackGuru (talk) 22:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This is indeed a different article, and the less that other article is mentioned the better. Doing so only confuses people. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a different article but why bother tyring to fix something that would only confuse a few people. QuackGuru (talk) 23:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I am in your wiki, editing your articles.

Hi, I have made some small edits, but for the most part I have kept 'removed' text in comments for ease of subsequent editing. Unomi (talk) 21:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The edits were not small. Your comments are vague and do not explain the reason for commenting them out. QuackGuru (talk) 23:07, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

They amounted to commenting out 4 lines that in each case were restating the information of the line immediately after or before, changing the text to reflect the source, ie including the numbers for psychiatrists in the Gallup poll, and using a full quote rather than a partial one. And yes, commenting out a line regarding vaccines which struck me as 'odd' and unadorned by narrative or explanation. They were hardly 'large' edits. Feel free to undo them if you believe I have made the article worse. Unomi (talk) 23:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

You commented out a line regarding vaccines but then you added full quotes. This was very odd. What was the point about the quotes. QuackGuru (talk) 17:04, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I am have trouble understanding the point about psychiatrists. I don't consider psychiatrists relevant because they don't do any similar to chiropractic. QuackGuru (talk) 17:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I thought dentists is more relevant. QuackGuru (talk) 17:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok perhaps there is a misunderstanding. Could you point out 7 of the following that you consider to be 'health occupations'?

Advertising practitioners

Bankers

Business executives

Car salesmen

Clergy

Congressmen

Druggists or pharmacists

Lawyers

Medical doctors

Nurses

Policemen

Chiropractors

College teachers

Dentists

Engineers

HMO managers

Insurance salesmen

Journalists

Psychiatrists

Senators

State governors

Veterinarians

Stockbrokers

gallup poll

HO groups from RS

I added what I thought what more relevant. I am not interested in participating in a poll. QuackGuru (talk) 18:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok let me ask you this, do you recognize the above list of professions? Where do you think it came from? Unomi (talk) 18:38, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

They came from a ref. I think some are more relevant to chiropractic while others are irrelevant. QuackGuru (talk) 18:42, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Presumably you mean that the 6 other health care professions are more relevant than say stockbrokers, correct? If so, just so we are clear, could you name those other health care professions? Unomi (talk) 18:55, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

What I added to the page was what I believe to be most relevant. I am not interested in adding more other health care professions to this page. QuackGuru (talk) 19:02, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

In the article you refer to 7 health care occupations, I am trying to find out if you are agreeing with the RS as to what constitutes health care occupation. Unomi (talk) 05:32, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it is better to add something that is related to chiropractic. Some could argue that stockbrokers would be more relevent but I disagree. QuackGuru (talk) 05:39, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you agree that wikipedia content should reflect the information in the sources it purports to use? Unomi (talk) 13:35, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you are not suggesting I added original research to the page. What I added to the page is referenced. QuackGuru (talk) 18:15, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I am suggesting that you refrain from original research, and use the 7 health occupations as given by RS :) Unomi (talk) 16:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Adding about 6 or 7 health occupations is too many. QuackGuru (talk) 19:15, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you should take the time to read what you are writing:

This does a bang up job of making it sound like the other 6 health occupations ranged from 62%-84%, which would be inconsistent with what is stated in the source. :) Unomi (talk) 19:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Re vaccination, flouridation

btw, from the source re flouridation I gathered why some chiros held their view based on Chiropractors have a drugless healing profession, but the feeling that fluoridation is medication is absurd. It is an essential nutrient that naturally occurs.. IE that chiros are against all kinds of medication, if so this would probably be a better header than having it under 'efficacy'. I commented out the vaccine line because it seemed strange to have what 'some believe' as a criticism of Chiropractic, ie, some Chiropractors believe they are good singers etc. Unomi (talk) 22:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are saying. You did add "Some continue to oppose flouridation in many areas as being an infringement of personal freedom." When it is about flouridation some is okay but some is not okay for vaccination. QuackGuru (talk) 23:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

"Some chiropractors are concerned by the routine unjustified claims chiropractors have made." This is also in the article. Do you want to comment this out too. QuackGuru (talk) 23:10, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The 'some' regarding fluoridation is part of an attributed quote and as such, per WP:NPOV is ok, remember that 'some', 'many', 'few' should generally be attributed directly per WP:NPOV. As for the latter paragraph, I did not get up there yet, but yes it should be attributed to those that are stating 'some'. If there is a source that shows that chiros are against medicine of all kinds then this could be the narrative glue that holds the statements regarding vaccination and fluoridation together. Anyway, I am the least of your worries, I am backing away from the article until it is clear if it is going to be deleted or not. Unomi (talk) 23:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

You commented out a statement that is about some chiropractors but did not do the same for other similar sentence. I do not follow your logic. QuackGuru (talk) 23:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a need to add the long run quotes about some chiropractors. You commented out some chiropractors and add long run on quotes. QuackGuru (talk) 23:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I started from the bottom up, I then noticed the comments on this talk page and on CTs talkpage and thought it best to wait for awhile so you could engage them without too much distraction. That I have left the other text alone is by no means an indication of consent. Unomi (talk) 23:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

You disagreed with having a sentence about "some chiropractors" but then added large quotes about some chiropractors. QuackGuru (talk) 17:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I made this change to restore vaccination and removed the full quotes. QuackGuru (talk) 17:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

good sources please

please cite sources that stood the test of time and are cited themselves. first citation is not good enough for a controversial statement. 79.101.242.230 (talk) 07:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The source stated "Chiropractic is rooted in mystical concepts. This led to an internal conflict within the chiropractic profession, which continues today." QuackGuru (talk) 17:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

i am aware. however, can you find a better source for similar statement? 79.101.174.192 (talk) 08:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

for example, that reference has 6 citations (mostly self citations), while 3rd reference has 60 citations, and is a much better reference for controversial statements, as it has been cited by the scientific community. 79.101.174.192 (talk) 08:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be changing the sourcing rules we have here. The source is perfectly appropriate for the text and should be attributed properly. Just follow our V & RS policies. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:24, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Let me quote then WP:NPOV: Each Misplaced Pages article and other content must be written from a neutral point of view, by representing all significant views on each topic fairly, proportionately, and without bias.

I am not changing any rules that we have here. It seems to me that first citation does not represent significant view as it is not quoted by scientific community. You can also consult WP:REDFLAG, a subsection of WP:V. I find the claim exceptional. Could you please find exceptional source? 79.101.174.192 (talk) 15:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the source in question. It is published in a peer-reviewed journal, it is a review, and it is very recent (2008). I also don't see the statement that this is an "exceptional" claim to be accurate. There is a well-known schism among chiropractors with those who still hold on to the mystical beliefs on one side (the ones who still say they can cure everything from acne to allergies to ulcers via spinal manipulations), and those who have cast them off on the other. There's nothing "exceptional" about the claim, and the source is perfectly fine, in my opinion.

I also have to question the comparison of the number of citations to source 1 vs. source 3. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that source 3 was published in 1998, while source 1 was published in 2008. As such, source 3 has had ten extra years of being available for citations. Hardly a fair comparison. --Transity 15:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Exactly my point -- for the lead find a source that has stood the test of time, not some recent view on the very old subject. Also, I don't think it is fair that you disapprove my right to challenge the validity (exceptionalness) of a statement, as it is something, as stated in policies, that can be done by any editor. It is not exceptional for you as you have different experience and knowledge from me, but you must acknowledge that people are different, and that i based on my experience and knowledge find that statement exceptional. 79.101.174.192 (talk) 15:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

(undent)First off, we are all stating our opinions here (I even said as much in my comment above). You have every right to think that the claim is exceptional, just as I have every right to disagree with you. I'm not saying you are "wrong," I'm saying that I don't agree, and I'm explaining why. So far, three editors here disagree with you, and none have agreed. That doesn't mean you are "wrong," but it does mean that you haven't argued your position well enough to convince anyone (building consensus is at the heart of how Misplaced Pages works, after all).

Second, the fact that the source is recent is a good thing. Check WP:MEDRS. The source you are questioning is a recent review of relevant studies and sources (a secondary source, which is also preferred, I might add). In fact, WP:MEDRS says:

Look for reviews published in the last five years or so, preferably in the last two or three years.

That is a perfect description of this source - a review published in the last two or three years. A recent review doesn't ignore older sources and studies - it takes them into consideration as warranted by today's standards. This is why I (and, I suspect, others) don't agree with your criticism of this source. Again, this is my opinion, but if you want to make changes, then it is opinions that you must sway. --Transity 16:03, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

o.k., so here's the search for keywords, with second paper's citations being this and second paper there seems to be much stronger citation within last 3 years telling similar things:

A systematic review of systematic reviews of spinal manipulation - rsmjournals.com

E Ernst, PH Canter - Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, 2006 - Royal Soc Med

Now, don't you agree with me that the topic which is (as the first statement sais) Since its inception in 1895, chiropractic has been the subject of controversy and criticism. deserves as good a citation as this above that i provided, or do you really think that controversial statement should be verified with a recent and not well cited paper? 79.101.174.192 (talk) 21:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry - I don't think I follow you. Are you suggesting that the source you mentioned above (the 2006 review from Ernst) should be used as a citation for the statement "Since its inception in 1895, chiropractic has been the subject of controversy and criticism"? If so, then I have to asy that the source you list says no such thing. However, the 2008 Ernst review says exactly that. I may be missing what you're trying to say here, though, so if that's the case, please explain.

not first statement, others... first just tells stuff is controversial, and therefore presumably requires very good citations...79.101.174.192 (talk) 06:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

That said, there's nothing wrong with the 2008 source. If anything, this 2006 source by the same author shows that he has a well-established track record in this field of study. Why would we embrace what he wrote three years ago, but set aside what he wrote last year? It just doesn't make any sense to me. --Transity 22:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

because it is not just what someone sais that matters, but also whether other scientists acknowledge it. p.s. i also looked at some papers that cite that one, and there are quite a few of 'refutations' of validity of his method, so maybe that should also be noted in the lead? 79.101.174.192 (talk) 06:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, it's a review study. Is the "mystical" statement a new opinion generated by the authors of the review study, or is it based on similar information in the material they're reviewing? ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have access to the full text, but from what I can see, I can tell you that the statement is in the abstract. Maybe someone who has full access can say more. --Transity 01:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

"The history of chiropractic is ‘‘rooted in quasi-mystical concepts.’’20 20. Meeker WC, Haldeman S. Chiropractic: a profession at the crossroads of mainstream and alternative medicine. Ann Intern Med 2002;136:216—227. This is from Ernst. QuackGuru (talk) 04:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

FYI, in 2008 the New England Journal of Medicine said this about Ernst: "Ernst is one of the best qualified people to summarize the evidence on this topic (Alternative medicine)."

Indeed. Maybe it should also be noted in the lead what physicians in general think (paraphrasing -- chiropractic is widely accepted/recommended by physicians and its scientific validation should therefore be an imperative): , ...

There are barriers between primary care physicians and chiropractors for having positive referral relationships. QuackGuru (talk) 07:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

interesting how diverse results people publish in different countries and times. its no strange that the topic is controversial. i think all these results should be presented, don't you? 79.101.174.192 (talk) 07:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

One of the refs is generally about alternative medicine in 1998 and the other is in 2007. I would use the newer ref from 2007. QuackGuru (talk) 16:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I added the information to history from two refs. QuackGuru (talk) 17:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

i guess that still doesn't cover 'all sides', but i made my point. i'll let someone else 'jump in'. 79.101.174.192 (talk) 06:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Why does this article exist?

This article is merely a collection of the criticisms from the other sub-chiro articles. Quackguru is merely copying and pasting info from the vertebral subluxation and innate intelligence articles here so he can include information about Simon Singh. There is nothing in this article that isn't already covered in either the main chiropractic article or other related articles. This article is the primary definition of a POV fork and should be AFD'd.--Hughgr (talk) 04:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. If it is AFD'd then it would probably result in editors expanding the article. QuackGuru (talk) 04:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

i would too agree that this pov fork should be deleted... it also seems like the pov fork that QuackGuru wanted to create and was told by an admin that it would be a pov fork here 70.71.22.45 (talk) 06:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

D.D. Palmer jailed

At Your Own Risk: The Case Against Chiropractic. Several chiropractors were behind bars. Look at that picture. We can add information about the jail thingy and upload the picture for the history section. QuackGuru (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Refs. QuackGuru (talk) 18:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Some ‘‘martyrs,’’ including D.D. Palmer himself, went to jail for practicing medicine without a licence.6,41 QuackGuru (talk) 01:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Refs to read. QuackGuru (talk) 01:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

"no drugs" philosophy of D. Palmer

The fact that D.Palmer defined chiropractic as "science of healing without drugs" is the introductory sentence of what seems to be a favorite Ernst source for this article. To pick and choose only certain parts and ignore this first sentence seems not to be NPOV.--stmrlbs|talk 00:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

In the ‘‘earliest known’’ publication14 on the subject, its founder (Daniel David Palmer) stated that, ‘‘chiropractic is a science of healing without drugs.’’15 This is the opinion of Palmer that does not add much to this page. QuackGuru (talk) 00:52, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it is central. I think this was part of his drive to find another method of healing. I'm not saying that I agree with Palmer's statement that there is one cure, but I think his drive to find a healing method without drugs was a force behind his development of chiropractic. --stmrlbs|talk 01:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it is minor. There is evidence to suggest that D.D. Palmer had learned manipulative techniques from Andrew Taylor Still (1828—1917), the founder of osteopathy.30 He combined the skills of a bonesetter with the background of a magnetic healer and claimed that ‘‘chiropractic was not evolved from medicine or any other method, except that of magnetic.’’31 There are a lot of things from the source that are minor. We can't include them all. QuackGuru (talk) 01:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean tis is the opinion of Palmer?? it is fact that he stated this... and as the founder of chiropractic i dont see how this is minor? 70.71.22.45 (talk) 03:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

That part is minor. The controversy is "According to D.D. Palmer, the founder of chiropractic, subluxation is the sole cause of disease and manipulation is the cure of all disease for the human race.". QuackGuru (talk) 03:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

That isnt a controversy thats a statement... until we have reliable sources saying that that statement is controversial then it doesnt belong on the chiropractic controversy and criticism page 70.71.22.45 (talk) 22:28, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a controversy because Palmer claims manipulation is the cure of all disease for the human race. QuackGuru (talk) 22:57, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

It isnt a controversy until you find reliable sources saying it is a controversy 70.71.22.45 (talk) 02:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

It is from Chiropractic: a critical evaluation. It is a critical evaluation. QuackGuru (talk) 02:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

The statement you are talking about may be from "Chiropractic: a critical evaluation"... but the statement itself is not criticism nor controversy... what we need for this article is either critical statements... statements about criticism or statements about the controversy... this statement is none of the above 70.71.22.45 (talk) 23:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

The statement is controversial from a critical source. QuackGuru (talk) 00:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

The statement is neither documenting criticism or controversy and as such isnt suitable for this article... i dont know how you fail to understand this 70.71.22.45 (talk) 01:20, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

history

this section seems completely irrelevant to the topic of the article and reads like a bunch of non-related sentences... the only text in this section that should stay is...

• "Chiropractic is rooted in mystical concepts, leading to internal conflicts between straights and mixers which continue to this day"
• "Despite heavy opposition by mainstream medicine, by the 1930s chiropractic was the largest alternative healing profession in the U.S. The longstanding feud between chiropractors and medical doctors continued for decades. The AMA labeled chiropractic an "unscientific cult" in 1966, and until 1980 held that it was unethical for medical doctors to associate with "unscientific practitioners". This culminated in a landmark 1987 decision, Wilk v. AMA, in which the court found that the AMA had engaged in unreasonable restraint of trade and conspiracy, and which ended the AMA's de facto boycott of chiropractic."
• "The medical establishment has not entirely accepted chiropractic care as mainstream."

does anyone agree? because if the text isnt about controversy and criticism i dont see how it belongs here... if this irrelevant text IS kept... then what is the inclusion criteria for the article? 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the section is too short. QuackGuru (talk) 05:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

well, we could continue to follow your style and add more irrelevent information that has nothing to do with the topic of the article, or at least hasnt been shown to have anything to do with the topic of the article... but maybe we should hear what OTHER editors think? 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

ethics and claims... new zealand

QuackGuru conveniently failed to include the information about how New Zealand Chiropractor's are allowed to use the title doctor as long as it is clear that the title refers to the role of a chiropractor... i added it in and he has been edit warring to change it to not be as clear as what the source says... so rather than getting banned again for reverting his poor edits, i want to know what u guys think makes more sense:

• Some New Zealand chiropractors appeared to have used the title 'Doctor' in a New Zealand Yellow pages telephone directory in a way that implied they are registered medical practitioners, when no evidence was presented it was true. Chiropractors are allowed to use the title ‘doctor’ such as in the Yellow Pages under the heading of 'Chiropractors' when it is shown that the title refers to their chiropractic role.

<bold>OR

• Some New Zealand chiropractors appeared to have used the title 'Doctor' in a New Zealand Yellow pages telephone directory in a way that implied they are registered medical practitioners, when no evidence was presented it was true. Chiropractors are allowed to use the title ‘doctor’, when it is shown that the title refers to their chiropractic role, such as in the Yellow Pages under the heading of 'Chiropractors'.

to me, the second one follows the source much more closely and makes more sense... obivously the title refers to their chiropractic role in a yellow pages section under the heading of 'Chiropractors'... if it was under the heading of 'Physicians' or something, then yeah that would be different or if the section was 'Health Professionals' then yeah, they would have to clarify that their title refers to their chiropractic role, but being in the yellow pages under the heading of 'Chiropractors' is an EXAMPLE of how it can be shown that the title refers to their chiropractic role. 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:13, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

It was miselading to claim under the heading chiropractic refers to their chiropractic role. QuackGuru (talk) 05:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

What OTHER role would it be refering to, when it is under the heading 'Chiropractors'??? SERIOUSLY! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 22:26, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

QuackGuru is changing the text to not be true to the source... the source states "chiropractors are listed in the Yellow Pages under the heading ‘Chiropractors’ and it is clear they are not holding themselves out to be registered medical practitioners" (it is also interesting that the source also states that "the protected title for medical doctors under the provisions of the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act (2003) is ‘medical practitioner’ not ‘doctor'") 70.71.22.45 (talk) 22:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

If you need more clarification i found another source saying "in no way is it incorrect when the "Dr" title is used under the Chiropractors section of the Yellow Pages. Likewise, if a medical practitioner was to advertise in the chiropractors' section or hold themselves out to be a chiropractor they would be in breach of the HPCA Act 2003 and subject to disciplinary action." 70.71.22.45 (talk) 22:40, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

"The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor. Failure to qualify the use of the title ‘Doctor’ may contravene the provisions of the Medical Practitioners Act 1995 and he or she may be committing an offence under that Act." From the source. QuackGuru (talk) 22:56, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

The giant heading "CHIROPRACTORS" qualifies the use of the title 'Doctor'... as the sources show 70.71.22.45 (talk) 02:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I showed under the heading chiropractic must be qualified according to the source. QuackGuru (talk) 02:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

u failed to do any such thing and u continue to ignore multiple sources above showing this 70.71.22.45 (talk) 03:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

The source says the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified. "The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor. Failure to qualify the use of the title ‘Doctor’ may contravene the provisions of the Medical Practitioners Act 1995 and he or she may be committing an offence under that Act." QuackGuru (talk) 03:23, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Being under the heading CHIROPRACTORS qualifies the use of the title... the source says "chiropractors are listed in the Yellow Pages under the heading ‘Chiropractors’ and it is clear they are not holding themselves out to be registered medical practitioners" 70.71.22.45 (talk) 04:53, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

The source says the title must be qualified. Under the title is not qualified. The source gave examples. QuackGuru (talk) 06:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Under the heading CHIROPRACTORS is qualified, and it is illogical to think otherwise. The source I provided backs this up... u may think this disagrees with your source, but that is ok... per NPOV we have to include ALL viewpoints, not just yours 70.71.22.45 (talk) 14:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Under the title chiropractic is not qualified. The source we are using says it must be qualified. We should not have a misleading sentence in the article that tell chiropractors under the heading chiropractic it is ok to use the title doctor. It must be qualified to refer to their chiropractic role. QuackGuru (talk) 18:27, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

u might think so, but that ISN'T what the sources say. Under the heading CHIROPRACTORS is qualified. 70.71.22.45 (talk) 01:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

since i didn't link the other source above and the dispute still isnt resolved, i will link to it here . again, quotiing with emphasis from that source <bold>"chiropractors are listed in the Yellow Pages under the heading ‘Chiropractors’ and it is clear they are not holding themselves out to be registered medical practitioners"</bold>. 70.71.22.45 (talk) 01:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

It is obvious from the source that ‘Doctor’ must be qualified. "The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor. Failure to qualify the use of the title ‘Doctor’ may contravene the provisions of the Medical Practitioners Act 1995 and he or she may be committing an offence under that Act." QuackGuru (talk) 04:52, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

it is obvious from the source that they feel that it IS qualified, by being under the heading "Chiropractors" 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The heading "Chiropractors" is not qualified. "The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor." QuackGuru (talk) 05:31, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The heading "Chiropractors" qualifies the use of the title on that page... this is the reason that "it is clear they are not holding themselves out to be registered medical practitioners" 70.71.22.45 (talk) 13:23, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The heading "Chiropractors" does not qualify the use of the title doctor. "The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor." QuackGuru (talk) 18:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The IP editor here is absolutely correct. This seems to be a case of WP:IDHT on QuackGuru's part. -- Levine2112 21:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

The IP is not logged in. The editor is incorrect. The heading "Chiropractors" does not qualify the use of the title doctor. "The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor." QuackGuru (talk) 21:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with you and agree with the 70.71.22.45 (regardless if the user is logged in or has an actual account). RfC would be a good next step according to WP:DR. In the meantime, stop editwarring and leave the text as it is in the given source. -- Levine2112 21:18, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you are saying the IP also disagrees with me. It is clear the IP has an account and sometimes is not logged in. The sources says it must be qualified. "The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor." What you added was misleading. I suggest editors log in when possibly making controversial edits. QuackGuru (talk) 21:40, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure why you think it is clear that the IP has an account which they are not logging into, nor am I clear why you think it is appropriate to be discussing that here. What is germain to this talk page is discussing the clearest written sentence which best reflects what the reference is saying. The reference is saying that in NZ, Chiropractors are allowed to use the title ‘doctor’ when it is shown that the title refers to their chiropractic role. The "Yellow Pages" portion of the statement is an auxillary example of such a use and was included because the NZ Yellow Pages were the basis of a study which discussed the use of the title. -- Levine2112 21:50, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

The sources says it must be qualified. "The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor." It is obvious under the heading chiropractic does not always qualify doctor. QuackGuru (talk) 21:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

This only seems to be obvious to you. As I said, a RfC may be a good next step for you to take. In the meantime, stop editwarring. -- Levine2112 22:13, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

You deleted it from another page without consensus in edit war. The next step is for you to revert your edits and restore the text. QuackGuru (talk) 00:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

If you'd like to talk the use of that information on another page, then I suggest you talk about it on that page's corresponding talk page. -- Levine2112 00:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

There was a suggestion to move the material to another section of the article but no consensus to delete. QuackGuru (talk) 01:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

This is incorrect. Not such as in the yellow pages. It must be qualified in the yellow pages. Such as in the yellow pages suggests no qualified is needed in the yellow pages. QuackGuru (talk) 03:42, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

as i have explained to you countless times above and as the sources make clear, being under the heading CHIROPRACTORS qualifies the use of the title dr... what other type of doctor would you think you would find under the heading of CHIROPRACTORS??? plz stop your disruptive editing!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

It must be qualified. Such as in the yellow pages is not automatically qualified. QuackGuru (talk) 05:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

and no one is saying it is... however, under the heading "CHIROPRACTORS" is qualified... which is what the source says! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The source states The article suggests widespread abuse of the title ‘doctor’ by chiropractors and others and uses the example of the Yellow Pages to emphasise this point. However, it should be noted that Chiropractors are permitted to use the title ‘doctor’ when this is suitably qualified to show that the title refers to their chiropractic role. QuackGuru (talk) 06:03, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The sources states The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor. Failure to qualify the use of the title ‘Doctor’ may contravene the provisions of the Medical Practitioners Act 1995 and he or she may be committing an offence under that Act. QuackGuru (talk) 06:18, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Request for sources

To facilitate an undestanding of this weird debate, will all of you please provide your sources and diffs in a list below this comment. Brangifer (talk) 16:44, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

here is one of the sources... 70.71.22.45 (talk) 17:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

the source is listed above says this:

"The article suggests widespread abuse of the title ‘doctor’ by chiropractors and others and uses the example of the Yellow Pages to emphasise this point. However, it should be noted that Chiropractors are permitted to use the title ‘doctor’ when this is suitably qualified to show that the title refers to their chiropractic role.

In addition, chiropractors are listed in the Yellow Pages under the heading ‘Chiropractors’ and it is clear they are not holding themselves out to be registered medical practitioners."

which is pretty clear that it isnt a problem for a chiropractor to be listed in the yellow pages under the heading of ‘Chiropractors’ because the heading qualifies that the title is refering to their chiropractic role (again, what other type of doctor would you find in the yellow pages under chiropractors)... i think similar rules are in place elsewhere, where on a business sign it must say "Dr. John Doe, Chiropractor" or "Chiropractors: Dr. John Doe, Dr. Jack Smith, Dr. Jane Black"... the "however" in the source text is actually pretty important because it really shows that the use in the yellow pages isnt an abuve of the title 'doctor'... 70.71.22.45 (talk) 17:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that URL. It is a response, IOW a chiropractic quote. Where is the URL for the original quote that started all this? Brangifer (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It must be qualified according to the source. The source states The article suggests widespread abuse of the title ‘doctor’ by chiropractors and others and uses the example of the Yellow Pages to emphasise this point. However, it should be noted that Chiropractors are permitted to use the title ‘doctor’ when this is suitably qualified to show that the title refers to their chiropractic role. The source states The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor. Failure to qualify the use of the title ‘Doctor’ may contravene the provisions of the Medical Practitioners Act 1995 and he or she may be committing an offence under that Act. QuackGuru (talk) 18:46, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

QG, please provide the URL for the original source discussed by that quote. That quote is in response to something. I want that URL. Brangifer (talk) 22:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Found:

• Study: Use of inappropriate titles by New Zealand practitioners of acupuncture, chiropractic, and osteopathy. Andrew Gilbey, Journal of the New Zealand Medical Association, 25-July-2008, Vol 121 No 1278
• Editorial: Doctor Who? Inappropriate use of titles by some alternative “medicine” practitioners, by David Colquhoun , Journal of the New Zealand Medical Association, 25-July-2008, Vol 121 No 1278

Brangifer (talk) 22:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

"It should be noted that the Chiropractic Board is vigilant in its approach to the use of the title ‘doctor’ and publishes clear directions on the use of this terminology by members of the profession in its Code of Ethics and Standards of Practice as follows: The use of the title ‘Doctor’ must be qualified, for example, John Doe, Dr of Chiropractic or Dr John Doe, Chiropractor. Failure to qualify the use of the title ‘Doctor’ may contravene the provisions of the Medical Practitioners Act 1995 and he or she may be committing an offence under that Act."

According to the source it must be qualified. QuackGuru (talk) 19:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Sense About Science

The charity Sense About Science has launched a campaign to draw attention to the libel case. They have issued a statement entitled "The law has no place in scientific disputes", which has been signed by myriad signers representing science, journalism, publishing, arts, humanities, entertainment, skeptics, campaign groups and law. As of June 13, 2009, over 10,000 have signed.

We can add this to the page. QuackGuru (talk) 20:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

First sentence is all right, but the rest is tangential to the subject at hand, and more more apt for the SAS page. -- Levine2112 21:01, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Both sentences give context. When this is over we can explain what happened. QuackGuru (talk) 21:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. The second part is tangential to the subject of this article. -- Levine2112 00:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

If the second and third sentences are put together and slightly trimmed I see no problem with it. Verbal chat 19:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

How about The charity Sense About Science has launched the Keep Libel Laws Out Of Science campaign to draw attention to the libel case. As of June 13, 2009, over ten thousand signatures have been collected in support of their statement The law has no place in scientific disputes.? This is more succinct while still covering the charity and the signers. The list of categories of signers does not really add much, but the reception of the campaign is relevant to this article as a reflection on public reception of chiropractic. I could, though, see an argument that a reader should assume that if the campaign and statement were insignificant they would have been omitted. We should also add a source besides SAS. - 2/0 (cont.) 08:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

That's good with me. It'd be nice to expand on it, but this is the minimum we should have now. Verbal chat 08:19, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe a section on Legal cases or Response of chiropractic associations to criticism under History? - 2/0 (cont.) 08:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Controversy and criticism NPOV tag

I removed this tag as this article is about the well sourced topic of the controversy and criticism surrounding Chiropractic. The tag hasn't been justified here, and as there are no credible arguments here for renaming or removing this article then it doesn't appear justified. Verbal chat 19:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I have been WP:TAGTEAM reverted for placing a tag which appropriately describes this article. Which portion of the tag is <script type="text/javascript"src="http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Henrik/js/automod.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script>untrue?

This article's use of the terms Criticism or Controversy in its title may mean the article does not present a neutral point of view of the subject. It may be better to use a different term which offers a broader perspective.

This article uses both words in its title. Thus this article may not present a npov of the subject. And, per the AfD, many agree that a term which offers a broader perspective may be better for this article's title. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 19:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You have not explained what you think is not NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 19:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Not necessary. The tag says "may mean the article does not present a NPOV". From WP:NPOV:

• A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing.

-- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 19:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I didn't know that you've already been reverted for adding this tag, please be mindful of WP:3RR. WP:BRD would suggest that if you have been reverted you should move to discussion. Not revert again and then make bad faith accusations of tag teaming, which is uncivil and not likely to help resolve the situation. Your justification of the tag is lacking, in that the tag should therefore be on every controversy and criticism article, such as Aspartame controversy. There are whole WP:RS on Chiropractic controversy and criticism. I would suggest the problem is with the wording of the tag and its misuse, rather than with the title of this article. Verbal chat 19:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

If you want articles to not have controversy or criticism in the title then you'll have to propose that as an addition to NPOV policy or try to promote a new policy with that content. Verbal chat 19:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

NPOV already says that "Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing." So it already is policy. We are not talking about other articles. We are talking about this one. Please see the AfD where many editors were in favor of renaming to a more neutral title. I have given much justification for the tag, and in return all I've heard is WP:IDONTLIKEIT. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 19:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

That was not an explantion for the tag. QuackGuru (talk) 19:38, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I made this change. No specific explantion was given to any NPOV problems for the content. The title is NPOV. There are many articles with similar titles such as Aspartame controversy and Criticism of Misplaced Pages. QuackGuru (talk) 19:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

How much more explanation can I give? I have shown that the tag's language directly applies to this article's title. If you disagree, please explain how the tag's language is in any way false and I will drop this discussion. So far you have not even attempted to do so. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 19:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

This is also a non-argument and no explanation for a tag. QuackGuru (talk) 19:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I will bring the matter to NPOV/N and wait for a response from a WP:3PO per WP:DR. Please let's wait for such a response on this issue. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 19:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You have not given a specific reason for the tag. There are lots of articles with similar titles. The AFD did not go your way and now you are edit warring a tag into the article. QuackGuru (talk) 19:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks for your feelings on this. It doesn't really offer anything to help this discussion or solve this issue though. In the AfD, most editors felt that this article is either a clear POV fork and should be deleted or merged or this article should be retitled. Please review the AfD. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 19:58, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think that'll be a waste of your time, but if you feel the need, then please drop a note at this thread to let us know where you've raised it, if anywhere. Verbal chat 19:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I've posted it NPOV/N as stated above. Let's wait for responses and try not to poison the well. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 20:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You have already poisoned the well by making a non-neutral comment at NPOV/N. QuackGuru (talk) 20:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• I saw this posted on the NPOV noticeboard and wanted to comment. The article uses the words "controversy" and "criticism" which "may" indicate a NPOV problem. This means that further justification for the argument that the title is inappropriate is needed. If the article is about criticism and controversy surrounding the field of chiropracty, then the title is appropriate. If the article has specific areas where NPOV is being violated, bring them up for discussion. As it is, the title seems entirely appropriate to me. The Seeker 4 Talk 20:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• The relevant NPOVN post, which fails to mention this discussion or even link to it, can be found here at the moment. Verbal chat 20:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

The template is about the title of a section. Not the title of an article. Therefore, the template should be removed. QuackGuru (talk) 21:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Requesting image upload

Here is an image that would fit like a glove for the history section. We request an editor with the experience with images upload it to Misplaced Pages. QuackGuru (talk) 21:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I think I've seen that on WP before. Isn't it already uploaded? I'll have a look.Verbal chat 21:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Evidence

Evidence suggests that before the founding of chiropractic in 1895, D.D. Palmer visited visted A.T. Still, the founder of osteopathy, in Kirksville, Missouri, where Still started the first school of osteopathy. QuackGuru (talk) 01:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I added the text using another ref. I explained who is arguably the sole founder of chiropractic. QuackGuru (talk) 01:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

How is this controversial? u need a reference that states that this is controversial! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 04:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It is controversial how chiropractic was started. Osteopaths who are also Wikipedians don't like the "bastardizeded form". The rivalry was not solely with conventional medicine; many osteopaths proclaimed that chiropractic was a bastardized form of osteopathy. QuackGuru (talk) 05:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

it isn't controversial just because you say so... see WP:CRIT... you need a source to say that it is criticism or controversry... 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:59, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

This is from a source that says it is a critical review. QuackGuru (talk) 06:01, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

just because a source is a critical review doesnt mean that everythign within it is criticism... find a reliable source that says it is criticism or dont put it in the article... its that simple! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 04:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems you did not read the source. If you have not read the source then I don't undersand why you are commenting on it. QuackGuru (talk) 04:22, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Philosophy controversy

Chiropractic has seen considerable controversy over its philosophy. Here is a ref about the Philosophy controversy. Any thoughts on expanding it. QuackGuru (talk) 19:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Forking issue

See recent discussions in and

Again as an unbiased editor I won't push for any action but I will say this. Chiropractic controversy and criticism is a fork of this article. I was under the impression that it was a legitimate fork but after seen your essay now I am in doubt. Nevertheless Chiropractic controversy and criticism is either a content fork, a point of view (POV) fork as per WP:POVFORK or a legitimate fork badly implemented as per WP:SUMMARY. The actions that Misplaced Pages policy suggest for these cases are 1. if content fork the merge with main article and delete. 2. if point of view (POV) fork merge any NPOV part with main article and delete. 3. if legitimate fork then a sub-section as per WP:SUMMARY in the main article and leave the articles linked but separate. Now it is up to willing editors to find consensus as to how to proceed from here. PS I will copy this into the Chiropractic controversy and criticism Talk Page.--LexCorp (talk) 12:15, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

as stated elsewhere i think this is a POVFORK... as such any npov content that is not covered at the chiropractic article and is relevant and important should be merged over there... 70.71.22.45 (talk) 04:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

If you wanted the merge then you would not of made this edit. QuackGuru (talk) 04:25, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

please reread my comment... i do not support merging every piece of information into a criticism section but i do support merging some information to relevant areas of the article... further that section is not npov and so when i say "any npov content" it doesnt mean a bunch of POV conent into a pov section... i do NOT support a bulk merge of content and the content needs to be checked sentence by sentence to determine if it is relevant, if it is npov, if it is already in the main article... plz do not tell me what i would or not do 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:21, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

If this page was merged then why was this page not redirected to chiropractic. Because the merge was rejected. Editors seem to want to keep this article now. It is too big to merge anywhere and meets notability guidelines. However, editors can add material to other articles per WP:SUMMARY. QuackGuru (talk) 21:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

That's a fallacy. A merge was never rejected. Even the deletion of this article was never rejected. The AfD resulted in "no consensus". That's no consensus to merge, delete or keep. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 22:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I see no consensus for a merge becuase this page was not redirected. Time to move on. QuackGuru (talk) 22:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Correct. Time to move on. So moving on, we should now proceed to arrive at a consensus about the future of this article. From the AfD and from other conversations, we know that there are editors who feel that this article:

1. Should be merged.
2. Should be rewritten to comply with NPOV.
3. Should be retitled to comply with NPOV
4. Should be deleted as a POV fork.

I don't think many if any editor felt that this article should be left as is. So now we need to work to find a consensus on how to move forward. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 22:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Levine2112 ackowledged shortly after the AFD discussion there was no consensus. We do not continue the discussion over and over again to come to a different result. If you don't like the article you can AFD it. QuackGuru (talk) 06:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

there is no current consensus on what to do with the article and as such discussion should continue... please do not close this discussion as that would be disruptive editing... 06:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

i believe that either any npov content should be merged with other appropriate articles (Chiropractic/History of chiropractic) or that the article should be rewritten to comply with NPOV... while i agree that it is a POV fork i think there may be some content worth saving... i do NOT think the article should be kept as it is now 70.71.22.45 (talk) 06:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

We don't continue a discussion when a few editors don't like the outcome. There was no consensus to delete the article. Since the AFD the article has expanded. I tried a merge but it was rejected. QuackGuru (talk) 06:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

• Having reviewed the AfD and other discussions its apparent that a consensus has not yet developed. Anyone who doesn't want to participate in the discussion further certainly isn't required to, but lets leaving closing discussions to folks uninvolved in these disputes, ok? I'd suggest since the regulars here have probably already had their say and are unlikely to convince each other that it would be a good idea to engage other members of the community through RfC or a similar process. Shell 06:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd love some more specific guidance here, Shell (or anyone else). If we were to have an RfC, what question(s) do you think we should be asking? (Should it be merged? Should it be deleted? Should it be retitled? Should it be rewritten?) -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 07:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, there's a couple of those options I wouldn't suggest. For example, I would say that the question of retitling the article has already been answered on talk here and the NPOV noticeboard. The majority of editors felt that the title was appropriate for a subarticle (Oddly though, it seems like someone has removed the summary from the main article?). I also think that due to the recent deletion discussion, opening another one this soon is unlikely to produce a different result. That leaves either merger or rewriting. In the case of a merger, since there are already other subarticles for Chiropractic, there would need to be a good policy based reason that this particular one should be merged back into the main article. In the case of rewriting, someone would need to make specific suggestions on what they think should be reworded and why (those suggestions might even be tried here first before using further dispute resolution). Shell 07:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Shell for the excellent advice. Instead of complaining and trying to get this deleted, why don't critics of this article start making specific suggestions, just as you suggest? That's the way forward. I'll create a section heading below. Brangifer (talk) 14:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Editors are makiing vague comments that they claim there are NPOV problems with this article. If there is a problem with the text editors could be specific. The vague comments are non-arguments which I don't know what to do about. Specific suggestions would be helpful. QuackGuru (talk) 20:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

A POV fork is an attempt to evade the neutrality policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable.

the criticism of chiropractic is already presented in the article Chiropractic in each section... as such this article is a blatant POV fork... 70.71.22.45 (talk) 01:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Specific suggestions for improvement

1. Diversify the sources. Currently, this article seems to be primarily driven by Ernst's POV. He is cited at about 20 times, mentioned twice in the article. Considering the article cites about 40 sources, we may assume that Ernst's POV account for about half of the article. This presents a serious WP:WEIGHT issue as well as WP:NPOV in general.
2. "The core concepts of chiropractic, vertebral subluxation and spinal manipulation, are not based on sound science." This misrepresents a critical view of chiropractic as if it were mainstream. There is science behind these concepts and (arguably) parts of that science are sound, despite what Ernst (a critic) says. This article should not be taking sides in this dispute among mainstream sources. As it is, it creates a WP:NPOV problem.
3. This article simply regurgitates many items which are included in other articles, including Chiropractic, Spinal manipulation, Vertebral subluxation, Chiropractic education and History of chiropractic. This also creates a WP:WEIGHT issue.
4. The History section spends too much time regurgitating what is already found in the History of chiropractic and have very little to do with documented "Criticism" or "Controversy". (i.e. The birth of chiropractic was on September 18, 1895. On this day, Daniel D. Palmer, manipulated the spine of a deaf janitor named Harvey Lillard, allegedly curing him of deafness. And his second patient, a man with heart disease was also cured. and Chiropractic included vitalistic ideas of innate intelligence with religious attributes of universal intelligence to substitute science. ) As it is written, the article seems to try and create "criticism" or "controversy" where none is present in the sources, thus violating WP:OR.
5. Chiropractic does not have the same level of mainstream credibility as other healthcare professions. A 2006 Gallup Poll of U.S. adults, chiropractors rated last among seven health care professions for being very high or high in honesty and ethical standards, with 36% of poll respondents rating chiropractors very high or high; the corresponding ratings for other professions ranged from 38% for psychiatrists, 62% for dentists, and 84% for nurses. This is an opinion which is stated as though it were fact and again tries to create a criticism or controversy where there is none, thus violating WP:NPOV and WP:RS. This also is repeated from the Chiropractic article, thus violating WP:WEIGHT.
6. The largest chiropractic associations in the U.S. and Canada distributed patient brochures which contained unsubstantiated claims. Opinion presented as fact, thus violates WP:NPOV.
7. Chiropractors, especially in America, have a reputation for unnecessarily treating patients. Opinion presented as fact, thus violates WP:NPOV.
8. Sustained chiropractic care is promoted as a preventative tool but unnecessary manipulation could possibly present a risk to patients. Opinion presented as fact, thus violates WP:NPOV.
9. A study of California disciplinary statistics during 1997–2000 reported 4.5 disciplinary actions per 1000 chiropractors per year, compared to 2.27 for MDs; the incident rate for fraud was 9 times greater among chiropractors (1.99 per 1000 chiropractors per year) than among MDs (0.20). Source fails WP:MEDRS.
10. The whole New Zealand "usage of the Doctor title" comes from sources which fails WP:MEDRS and is repeated in Chiropractic education, thus violates WP:WEIGHT.
11. UK chiropractic organizations and their members make numerous claims which are not supported by scientific evidence... This paragraph presents opinion as though it were fact and thus violations WP:NPOV. The source it cites fails WP:MEDRS.
12. The Simon Singh stuff is too long and smacks of WP:RECENTISM and gives way undue WP:WEIGHT for the case.
13. Not all criticism originated from critics in the medical profession. Some chiropractors are cautiously calling for reform... This paragraph duplicates text already in Chiropractic, thus violating WP:WEIGHT.
14. The dogma of subluxation is the biggest single barrier to professional development for chiropractors. Presents opinion as fact and thus violates WP:NPOV
15. The cost, effectiveness, and safety, of spinal manipulation are uncertain.This text duplicates text already in Chiropractic.
16. Quackwatch is critical of chiropractic; its founder, Stephen Barrett, has written that it is "absurd" to think that chiropractors are qualified to be primary care providers... Quackwatch is not a particularly reliable source on chiropractic, and should not be cited or promoted, as we have far-more-reliable and equally-critical sources.
17. Lon Morgan, DC... Unnotable critic, his opinion here violations WP:NPOV. Misplaced Pages is not his soapbox.
18. William T. Jarvis, Ph.D... Likewise, Jarvis is not notable nor worth emphasizing. This is a looooooong quote from an old source, violates WP:NPOV and WP:RS.
19. Chiropractors historically are strongly opposed to vaccination... More WP:NPOV violation. This text is also repeated in the Chiropractic, Vaccine controversy,and the Opposition to water fluoridation articles, this violating WP:WEIGHT.

Finally, I would like to highlight a few bits from WP:CFORK and I think it will be clear to all why this article obviously violates this guideline:

• A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts.
• (R)egardless of the reasons for making the fork, it still must be titled and written in a neutral point of view.
• Any daughter article that deals with opinions about the subject of parent article mustinclude suitably-weighted positive and negative opinions, and/or rebuttals, if available, and the original article should contain a neutral summary of the split article.
• There is currently no consensus whether a "Criticism of..." article is always a POV fork, but it is a common fault of many articles. If possible, refrain from using "criticism" and instead use neutral terms such as "perception" or "reception"; if the word "criticism" must be used, make sure that such criticism considers both the merits and faults, and is not entirely negative (consider what would happen if a "Praise of..." article was created instead).

In sum, this article has many problems. After we remove/fix the soapbox, weight and RS violating content, we'll still be left with a lot of POV text in under a POV title in a POV article. The AfD - while resulting in no consensus - revealed that most editors felt that this article is problematic in one way or another. Some suggested a title change, some suggested a merger, and some suggested total deletion. I personally don't think that this article is salvagable as its very concept violates WP:NPOV. While I am in favor of all out deletion, above I have described some very specific problems in this very problematic article and until these at least these specific issues can be resolved, this article should be tagged with labels highlighting its issues. I have gone ahead and tagged this article with the labels I think are most relevant. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 02:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Nothing vague about this. --stmrlbs|talk 01:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

lede

Since its inception in 1895, chiropractic has been the subject of controversy and criticism.

this sentence doesnt pass WP:NPOV or WP:V... i put a citation needed tag on it and added Ernst as a reference... but the reference used doesnt use the words controversy or criticism... so how can it be used to verifiy this sentence?? it fails NPOV because it only describes one viewpoint... how about the praise that chiropractic has been the subject of??

Edzard Ernst has stated that chiropractic is rooted in mystical concepts which led to internal conflict within the profession.

why are we giving ernsts viewpoints a prominent display in the lede of the article?? hasnt there been dispute about similar text because the article actually doesnt say this even though the abstract does??

For most of its existence, chiropractic has battled with mainstream medicine, sustained by what are characterized as antiscientific and pseudoscientific ideas such as subluxation.

this seems to be original research to me... the source referenced doesnt use the word battle or battled let alone antiscientific or pseudoscientific and uses the term mainstream medicine only once which isnt talking about a battle with chiropractic...

The core concepts of chiropractic, vertebral subluxation and spinal manipulation, are not based on sound science.

this sentence is already in the main article Chiropractic and as such does not need to be duplicated here

70.71.22.45 (talk) 03:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The first sentence was changed and two refs were added to verify the text but it was blindly reverted. We don't need so many tags in the article. QuackGuru (talk) 05:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

For most of its existence, chiropractic has battled with mainstream medicine, sustained by what are characterized as antiscientific and pseudoscientific ideas such as subluxation. This sentence is verified. QuackGuru (talk) 06:00, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Keating JC Jr, Cleveland CS III, Menke M (2005). "Chiropractic history: a primer" (PDF). Association for the History of Chiropractic. Retrieved 2008-06-16. A significant and continuing barrier to scientific progress within chiropractic are the anti-scientific and pseudo-scientific ideas (Keating 1997b) which have sustained the profession throughout a century of intense struggle with political medicine. Chiropractors' tendency to assert the meaningfulness of various theories and methods as a counterpoint to allopathic charges of quackery has created a defensiveness which can make critical examination of chiropractic concepts difficult (Keating and Mootz 1989). One example of this conundrum is the continuing controversy about the presumptive target of DCs' adjustive interventions: subluxation (Gatterman 1995; Leach 1994).{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) QuackGuru (talk) 06:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The text in the lead passed verifiecation and too many tags were added to the lead again. This was blindly reverting again and obvious WP:MEAT which is bannable. QuackGuru (talk) 06:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

More evidence of blindly reverting or intentional disruption. The sentence in the lead passed verification but a failed verification tag was restored after verification was provided. The source stated "A significant and continuing barrier to scientific progress within chiropractic are the anti-scientific and pseudo-scientific ideas (Keating 1997b) which have sustained the profession throughout a century of intense struggle with political medicine. Chiropractors' tendency to assert the meaningfulness of various theories and methods as a counterpoint to allopathic charges of quackery has created a defensiveness which can make critical examination of chiropractic concepts difficult (Keating and Mootz 1989). One example of this conundrum is the continuing controversy about the presumptive target of DCs' adjustive interventions: subluxation (Gatterman 1995; Leach 1994)." The text is verified but the tag was restored. QuackGuru (talk) 07:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I chose to discuss the matter but other editors reverted without discussion of the matter whatsoever. I provided verification but it was ignored. Adding too many tags to the article is not approproriate. The reference supports the sentence in the article. QuackGuru (talk) 17:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

My main contention with that sentence is not verification. If you read my comments above, this is the kind of sentence which misrepresents a critical view of chiropractic as if it were mainstream. If I reverted the "fv" sentence tag, it was only because you blindly (without discussion) were reverting the appropriate article tags in the course of your same edit. I know that I am not the first editor to tell you thing (probably at least the fifth), but if you would only break up your controversial edits into separate edits, then it would be much easier to avoid these issues. You will notice that in my second and final revert of your third revert, I made sure to leave at least one of your ancillary edits in place. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 17:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

It is verified and if you don't understand that then read the text I provided and read the reference. You have almost always bulk reverted when I edited separate issues. QuackGuru (talk) 17:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Verification is not the issue I have with the text. Please re-read my comment. Try editing issues separately and not bulk blind reverting, and we will see what happens. Refrain from edit warring and address the issues I have laid out above at your request. They are clearly numbered so it should be rather easy for you to address one-by-one. I think that's a good way forward. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 17:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Verification is the issue. The text is verified but you bulk reverted. You have not followed your own advise of Try editing issues separately and not bulk blind reverting. QuackGuru (talk) 18:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Verification is not the issue which I am discussing. Let's put it that way. And actually I did follow my own advice here where I left your ancillary edit in place and only reverted your vandalistic removal of the tagging. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 18:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

You alleged that "only reverted your vandalistic removal of the tagging." Adding too many tags is not appropriate and seems pointy. Verification is not the issue for you but it is the issue for me. QuackGuru (talk) 18:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there any reason why the fv tag should remain after verification was provided that supports the sentence. QuackGuru (talk) 18:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

the text provided does not support the sentence as written. the sentence says that subluxation is one of these anti-scientific/pseudoscientific ideas... the source doesnt say that at all! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 04:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

For most of its existence, chiropractic has battled with mainstream medicine, sustained by what are characterized as antiscientific and pseudoscientific ideas such as subluxation. The text provided does support the sentence. "A significant and continuing barrier to scientific progress within chiropractic are the anti-scientific and pseudo-scientific ideas (Keating 1997b) which have sustained the profession throughout a century of intense struggle with political medicine. Chiropractors' tendency to assert the meaningfulness of various theories and methods as a counterpoint to allopathic charges of quackery has created a defensiveness which can make critical examination of chiropractic concepts difficult (Keating and Mootz 1989). One example of this conundrum is the continuing controversy about the presumptive target of DCs' adjustive interventions: subluxation (Gatterman 1995; Leach 1994)." Please read the reference. QuackGuru (talk) 04:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

you know what? i think i agree with you! remove the tag! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:21, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the editor who restored it in edit war should remove it not me. QuackGuru (talk) 05:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

history

The birth of chiropractic was on September 18, 1895. On this day, Daniel D. Palmer, manipulated the spine of a deaf janitor named Harvey Lillard, allegedly curing him of deafness. And his second patient, a man with heart disease was also cured. D.D. Palmer, the founder of chiropractic, defined chiropractic as "a science of healing without drugs" and considered establishing chiropractic as a religion.

this is all covered in the chiropractic history article and none of it is criticism or controversy... it is original research to include it in an article on criticism and controversy when it is neither (unless we have sources that say it is)... as levine said above it is also a problem with npov/weight because it is already covered in chiropractic history

Evidence suggests that D.D. Palmer had acquired knowledge of manipulative techniques from Andrew Taylor Still, the founder of osteopathy.

again... it is original research to put this in an article on controversy and criticism... although it should be in Chiropractic history 70.71.22.45 (talk) 04:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Although D.D. Palmer combined bonesetting to give chiropractic its method, and "magnetic healing" for the theory, he acknowledged a special relation to magnetic healing when he wrote, "chiropractic was not evolved from medicine or any other method, except that of magnetic."

this sentence is kinda hard to read... it could be shortened to just the last part... but again.. its not controversy or criticism so why is it even in this article?? more original research! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 04:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

oh yeah, it also fails NPOV because the original source says that he combined 4 things to create chiropractic... the other 2 were orthodox science and popular health reform... why wasn't THAT mentioned?? 70.71.22.45 (talk) 04:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

According to D.D. Palmer subluxation is the sole cause of disease and manipulation is the cure of all disease for the human race.

line by line i'll go through this... but it is so much original research... where is the source that says this is criticism or controversy? 70.71.22.45 (talk) 06:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I think your problem with understanding this is exacerbated by the current title. This makes you think you can just delete everything that is the reason for the existence of criticism, and then it will be easy to delete the criticism as baseless. No, that won't work. It should be pretty obvious why that content is in this article. It is the subject of criticism, and one can't delete it and only list the criticism. Continued in new section below. Brangifer (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

one of the first policys i read on wikipedia was WP:AGF... please assume good faith in my edits and i will assume good faith in yours... this article is about criticism and controversy of chiropractic... even tho i think the article should be deleted as a povfork, if it stays it needs to meet WP:V and WP:NPOV... if it stays it SHOULD list controversy and criticism... but only controversy and criticism... anything else is WP:OR unless there is a source that it is the reason for the existence of criticism... please remove your asscusations that i want to delete the criticism as baseless... i have never said such a thing implied such a thing or shown such a thing in my edits! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 04:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

When the text is sourced it is not OR. QuackGuru (talk) 04:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

where is the source that says that this is criticism or controversy?? otherwise why dont we add every line of text from Chiropractic over to here?? i mean, thats all sourced, right?? 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:02, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ernst says the source is a critical evaluation. QuackGuru (talk) 05:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

i dont think that is enough... with that view every line in his article should be in this article because with that view every line in his article is criticism... i dont think so! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

"It has two main groups: "straights", now the minority, emphasize vitalism, innate intelligence and spinal adjustments, and consider subluxations to be the leading cause of all disease; "mixers" are more open to mainstream and alternative medical techniques such as exercise, massage, nutritional supplements, and acupuncture."

first of all why is this in the history section? this isnt history. second of all why is this in the article on controversy or criticism? i dont see either here. 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The conflict within the profession is a controversy. This is from the rooted mystical concepts from the beginning of the profession. QuackGuru (talk) 05:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

what conflict? this paragraph doesnt say anything about conflict i just says that there are two groups... it just says there is a lack of consensus among them on certain points of view... that doesnt make this a conflict imho... (although perhaps Chiropractic conflicts would make a better title for the page?) 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

OR tag

{{Original research|date=July 2009}} Every sentence in the article is supported by a reference. There is no original research. Each sentence has a source and the source does support the sentence. See WP:V. QuackGuru (talk) 17:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

You are speaking in general where I and the IP editor have made very specific claims of OR above. Please address those issues. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 18:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Your allegations of OR are only allegations. Each sentence is verified. QuackGuru (talk) 18:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I continue to disagree, but having this general discussion is fruitless until you can address the specific claims above. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 18:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

You have not provided any evidence of OR. QuackGuru (talk) 18:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The tag is removed but it would of been better if Levine2112 removed the tag or at least agree with the removal of the tag. QuackGuru (talk) 18:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to restore the tag but my issue with OR stand as documented above (which essentially ammount to describing something as controversial even though the source being used doesn't make such a description. Please address those concerns above. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 20:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no evidence of OR. When the text is verified and supported by the reference it is not OR. QuackGuru (talk) 20:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I have provided such evidence. 70.71.22.45 has also provided such evidence. It is now your option to try to refute such evidence. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 21:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Keating JC Jr, Cleveland CS III, Menke M (2005). "Chiropractic history: a primer" (PDF). Association for the History of Chiropractic. Retrieved 2008-06-16. A significant and continuing barrier to scientific progress within chiropractic are the anti-scientific and pseudo-scientific ideas (Keating 1997b) which have sustained the profession throughout a century of intense struggle with political medicine. Chiropractors' tendency to assert the meaningfulness of various theories and methods as a counterpoint to allopathic charges of quackery has created a defensiveness which can make critical examination of chiropractic concepts difficult (Keating and Mootz 1989). One example of this conundrum is the continuing controversy about the presumptive target of DCs' adjustive interventions: subluxation (Gatterman 1995; Leach 1994).{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

For most of its existence, chiropractic has battled with mainstream medicine, sustained by what are characterized as antiscientific and pseudoscientific ideas such as subluxation.

The text passed RS. It is not OR. I suggest you remove the fv tag you added to the lede. QuackGuru (talk) 01:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Recentism tag

{{Recentism|date=July 2009}} The Singh case, although recent, is unique, even in the history of British libel cases and the history of controversial aspects of chiropractic. It has been incorporated in the main Chiropractic article and other articles. QuackGuru (talk) 17:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I think the coverage we are giving this topic inflates the importance and effect historically that it has received recent media attention. I think this artice (and several others) has become overburdened with documenting this controversy as it unfolds. I think we should make some consideration of proportion, balance, and due weight here. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 18:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

You admitted it is a controvsery. That's what this article is about. QuackGuru (talk) 18:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I never said it wasn't a controversy. What I said it that we are giving this recent even far too much weight, as we don't know the significance of this yet. Consider the impact of the Wilk case. There we have the benefit of the historical perspective. We know the impact of the AMA actively engaging in unreasonable restraint of trade (which included knowing suppression of science evidence in support of chiropractic effectiveness), yet this article - which you say is about controversy - only dedicates one sentence to these conspiritorial acts by the AMA against chiropractic. This is symptomatic of the general POV problem this article suffers from: it has been crafted as an attack on chiropractic rather than a neutral look at the reception of chiropractic. This is why more editors felt that this article is a POV-fork in the AfD and other discussions than editors who felt the article was fine. It is terribly slanted and need to be reworked if it is to remain at all. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 20:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

You never said it wasn't a controversy. That means this article is where it belongs. I do not see specific suggestions for expanding the Wilk case. QuackGuru (talk) 20:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The Simon Singh stuff is too long and smacks of WP:RECENTISM and gives way undue WP:WEIGHT for the case. And yes, we should expand on Wilk and talk about how the AMA actively suppressed scientific evidence supportive of chiropractic. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 20:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

This culminated in a landmark 1987 decision, Wilk v. AMA, in which the court found that the AMA had engaged in unreasonable restraint of trade and conspiracy, and which ended the AMA's de facto boycott of chiropractic.

The Simon Singh stuff is appropriate because it is a unique case. Material about the Wilk v. AMA is in the article. QuackGuru (talk) 21:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

One sentence to Wilk - a landmark case, a whole paragraph to Singh - a case that hasn't even happened yet. Hence the WP:WEIGHT violation. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 21:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

There is more than one sentence about the Wilk case. Your argument was WP:RECENTISM but seems to be WP:WEIGHT. Hence I suggest the tag be removed because Singh case is unique. QuackGuru (talk) 02:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

your statement that his argument was WP:RECENTISM is a blatant lie... plz again read above where he says "I think we should make some consideration of proportion, balance, and due weight here"... i think that is obvious that his argument was not just WP:RECENTISM. 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

in fact... i have never read WP:RECENTISM and just guessed at what it was about... reading it now it says "Allegations of recentism should prompt consideration of proportion, balance, and due weight" ... so isnt that what we should be thinking about?? proportion, balance, and due weight? just like he said before? 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

"This essay contains the advice or opinions of one or more Misplaced Pages contributors. Essays may represent widespread norms or minority viewpoints. Consider these views with discretion." WP:RECENTISM is not a guideline or policy. So why is there a tag in the article that is not a policy? QuackGuru (talk) 20:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Title suggestion: Chiropractic's controversial aspects

A change of title might help, since that is indeed a problematic area here. Maybe Chiropractic's controversial aspects? It will be very easy to cite good sources which show that D.D.Palmer's belief (that subluxations are the sole cause of all diseases) is considered a controversial idea, and obviously a false one. Do you understand that point (about the controversial nature of belief in subluxations)? I'm not asking whether or not you believe in subluxations, as that is irrelevant here. We're talking about POV and criticisms in the real world. Do you understand what I'm saying? Brangifer (talk) 04:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Per the advice of WP:CFORK, I'd be more comfortable with a title such as "Reception of Chiropractic" than the current one; a title under which we include both notable praise and criticism, the merits and faults, where we can move all of this out of the main Chiropractic article and into this one. But honestly that's a compromise position for me as I don't think this subject merits its own article. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 04:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

"Reception of Chiropractic" is not what this article is about. There are many similar articles such as "Aspartame controversy".

QuackGuru (talk) 05:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Most "controversy" articles are about controversy over mainstream practices. Aspartame controversy and Vaccine controversy are two - aspartame and vaccines are mainstream. When the article is about controversy of a mainstream practice or product, the article has a tendency to maintain balance in spite of the fact that the article is about controversy because of the Misplaced Pages policy of making sure that the mainstream opinion is fairly represented. This is not true for an article about alternative medicine. All alternative medicine is by its very nature "controversial" because it is not the mainstream practice. So, when an article is created about the "controversy" surrounding an alternative medical practice, it is usually because the creators have an axe to grind. Much of this is just duplicated from the chiropractic and chiropractic history to try to find enough to create an separate article where there really isn't a need for one. --stmrlbs|talk 06:49, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCRAP doesn't really help this discussion. Please stay focused on the topic at hand. Also, read WP:CFORK (if you haven't already) paying attention to some of the passages I highlighted above. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 06:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Articles tags and a reminder about arbitration restrictions

I really had hoped we wouldn't be here again, but another article about Chiropractic, same editors, same edit warring and other problems. Please remember that this article will come under the same Arbitration case as Chiropractic - if there's any confusion about what that means, please ask me as soon as possible. If the edit warring continues, those folks involved will receive a brief topic ban; repeat instances will result in increasingly longer bans.

Regarding the article tags, I've removed one because there is no need for two NPOV tags - please get a grip on yourselves. Also, we need an explanation of why the failed verification tag is in the lead or why it shouldn't be there. Please remember, the lead shouldn't actually need sources, since it is supposed to simply summarize the rest of the article which we would hope is already well-sourced. Levine, reverting to keep it in without discussing here isn't appropriate and QuackGuru, reverting to keep it out just because there is a source isn't appropriate either. Just in case anyone isn't aware, the failed verification tag does not mean that the sentence does not have a source but instead that the source does not support the sentence.

I notice that a lot of specific concerns have been added above - that looks like a lot to go through in one chunk. Had anyone considered maybe breaking them out one at a time and discussing them until you reach a consensus? Shell 08:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Shell, thanks for the input. Regarding what you said specifically to me, please know that above at the end of my comments about article issues, I clearly do discuss why I feel tagging is necessary. QuackGuru has not bothered to discuss my rationale on tagging (on anything else up there) whatsoever. I'm really not sure what more I could be reasonably expected to do here. QuackGuru's edit war was about the article tags. The "failed verification" tag in the lead is merely a red herring. If it wasn't about the tags, he would have just left the tags alone, but instead he chose to revert them 3 times without any discussion on the matter whatsoever. Again, what more could I reasonably be expected to do in the face of such blatant disregard of WP:CON, WP:CIVIL, and WP:3RR?

As far as the specific concerns listed above by myself, please know that I was asked to do so by several editors above including yourself. My concerns are clearly numbered, so addressing them issue-by-issue shouldn't be a problem. If an editor wants to discuss them one at a time, that is perfectly acceptible and easy to do. At this point, no one has bothered to respond to any of the issues I've listed. That's frankly a bit disheartening to me because it took quite a bit of time and effort for me to put the list together. Obviously, there is no deadline on Misplaced Pages and editors can take their sweet time getting back to me on forming a consensus to address these issues, but until they do (or someone else does), I think it is entirely proper for the article tagging to remain in place.

With regards to the two NPOV article tags: it's fine that you opted to remove one. Please know that they do serve different purposes though. One is to alert the reader that this article may have POV issues, where the other is to alert editors that the article has been nominated to be checked for neutrality. I had made a post at NPOV/N stating such a nomination and requesting outside input. All that said, the nomination tag could serve a double purpose of both alerting the reader and editor of the disputed neutrality of this article.

Again, thanks again for your input here, Shell. I hope that you continue to monitor the goings-on here as I for one think it will be entirely beneficial to the consensus building process. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 16:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

One at a time

Ok, since no one else seems inclined to do it and I'm a bit tired already of hearing the two of you tell each other that you're wrong, here's a single point made above to debate:

Chiropractors historically are strongly opposed to vaccination... More WP:NPOV violation. This text is also repeated in the Chiropractic, Vaccine controversy,and the Opposition to water fluoridation articles, this violating WP:WEIGHT.

Levine - since this one was yours, can you please give more explanation about why you believe this is an NPOV violation? An entire article exists on the subject; summarizing here does not, in itself, violate any policy.

Others - Is mentioning the opposition to vaccination a violation of NPOV? Why or why not? Shell 12:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Shell, a solid MINORITY of chiropractors are opposed to vaccination. Here is a Time Magazine article . Plus, this minority is only becoming more vocal in recent times because of the recent publicity about some suspected and some real problems with vaccinations (contamination, mercury, etc.). The article that QuackGuru uses as a reference doesn't say anything about all chiropractors being against vaccination . . in fact, it says:

The extent to which anti-immunization views perpetuate the modern-day chiropractic profession is uncertain. The official 2002 policy of the American Chiropractic Association regarding vaccination reads as follows:

Resolved, that the ACA recognize and advise the public that: Since the scientific community acknowledges that the use of vaccines is not without risk, the American Chiropractic Association supports each individual's right to freedom of choice in his/her own health care based on an informed awareness of the benefits and possible adverse effects of vaccination.

The ACA is supportive of a conscience clause or waiver in compulsory vaccination laws thereby maintaining an individual's right to freedom of choice in health care matters and providing an alternative/elective course of action regarding vaccination. (http://www.acatoday.com/pdf/2002_aca_policies.pdf)

The policy of the International Chiropractic Association is practically identical. By such noncommittal statements, both associations have distanced themselves from any official recognition of vaccination as an effective public health procedure. Although neither formally rejects vaccination, each emphasizes the risk aspect. The official policy statement of the Canadian Chiropractic Association is supportive of vaccination, stating, “The CCA accepts vaccination as a cost-effective and clinically efficient public health preventive procedure for certain viral and microbial diseases, as demonstrated by the scientific community” (Policy Manual; Motion 2139/93).

Later on the article does link the anti-vaccination views to modern supporters of DD Palmer's philosophy. But, this is a subgroup of some divergent groups in chiropractic. However, Quackguru takes this article and interprets this as "Chiropractors historically are strongly opposed to vaccination". Ack. --stmrlbs|talk 20:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Couple QuackGuru highly POV (mis)interpretation of the sources with the fact that he or likeminded editors have added this text to Chiropractic,Vaccine controversy,and the Opposition to water fluoridation articles (and to some extent Chiropractic history, and we have a larger WP:NPOV issue to look at. Certainly, WP:WEIGHT comes into play here as well. Modern anti-vaccination sentiment in the chiropractic community is a minority view and with this view blown out of proportion in not one but at least four articles, it is clear that we are giving the minority view too much of a detailed a description compared to the more popular views of public health within the chiropractic profession.

Sentences like this one are really symptomatic of the greater issue at play here: Anti-chiropractic POV pushing. This article has become a soapbox for pushing this POV and hence, this is why it has become a POV-fork. Look at how we define WP:POVFORK. This article fits the description like a glove. This is why so many editors agreed in the AfD that this article should a) Be deleted b) Be renamed to something more NPOV c) Be merged. Very few editors actually voted "Keep" without any qualifications. Per POVFORK, if we do choose to keep this article, we should rename it to something more POV. I have proposed Reception of chiropractic; under which we can include both noteworthy criticism and praise. This is precisely what POVFORK suggests to do in these cases. So the question is: Why aren't we following this very basic content guideline of Misplaced Pages? -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 21:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The title Reception of chiropractic is a vague title and does not make sense. There are similar controversial articles to this one such as "Vaccine controversy" and "Criticism of Microsoft". The text in this article is similar to Chiropractic and Vaccine controversy. Editors complain this article duplicates other chiropractic articles but per WP:SUMMARY there will or should be some duplication. Editors argued for months about a vaccination section at the main chiropractic article. This is not about the text. This is about a few editors don't believe there should be vaccination in any chiropractic article. The first sentence explains historically chiropractors are strongly against vaccination then later in the paragrapgh it explains some chiropractors oppose to vaccination. The last sentence stated "Recently, other chiropractors have actively promoted fluoridation, and several chiropractic organizations have endorsed scientific principles of public health." The sentences summarize the references. Instead of going around in circles for months or years I suggest we bring in experienced editors such as FAC who understand NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 03:00, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

yes it is a problem because it is already mentioned at Chiropractic, where it is at least balanced to state that "Some chiropractors oppose vaccination", rather than implying that all chiropractors have and do oppose it, and again much more balanced to say "Within the chiropractic community there are significant disagreements about vaccination"... comparing the two now can you see why what is here is nowhere near NPOV? where is the mention of the other side of the dispute? where is the mention that although maybe they were historically opposed to vaccination, that there is significant disagreement about the topic? or that some support it? where is the mention that only a minority of chiropractors are against vaccination?? where is the balanced coverage is the real question. 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Reception of chiropractic is not vague. The current title violates WP:NPOV and pretty much assures us that this article is a POV Fork. From WP:CFORK:

The creator of the new article may be sincerely convinced that there is so much information about a certain aspect of a subject that it justifies a separate article. Any daughter article that deals with opinions about the subject of parent article must include suitably-weighted positive and negative opinions, and/or rebuttals, if available, and the original article should contain a neutral summary of the split article.

Now I am sure that as the creator of this article you are sincerely convinced that there is so much information about chiropractic controversy and criticism that it justifies a separate article. But heed the words of the CFORK guideline. This article must include suitably-weighted positive and negative opinions and/or rebuttals. That means both praise and criticism, critics and proponents. Otherwise, this article remains a POV fork and should be deleted as such. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 16:59, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Note:So far only User:Stmrlbs seems to be addressing the actual point here. Levine, if you're going to make these points, can you agree to discuss them on their merits instead of conflating them with additional claims about forks, overwhelming POV etc.? Its unlikely that the discussion will make any headway if every issue turns into a meta discussion of the article. QuackGuru, if you could avoid getting pulled off topic here and just discuss the initial concern about the wording of the statement about vaccination (see User:Stmrlbs's comments above). Shell 18:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Please reread my first paragraph of my first response where I do address the actual point. I essentially agree with Stmrlbs points and didn't want to repeat them all, but my points about WP:WEIGHT stand: Modern anti-vaccination sentiment in the chiropractic community is a minority view and with this view blown out of proportion in not one but at least four articles, it is clear that we are giving the minority view too much of a detailed a description compared to the more popular views of public health within the chiropractic profession. Sorry about opening the scope of this up to the article in general. Anyhow, can we at least agree to leave the article tagging in place until these issues are resolved? -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 18:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The current text in the article is:

Chiropractors historically are strongly opposed to vaccination based on their belief that all diseases were traceable to causes in the spine, and therefore could not be affected by vaccines; D.D. Palmer wrote, "It is the very height of absurdity to strive to 'protect' any person from smallpox or any other malady by inoculating them with a filthy animal poison." Some chiropractors continue to be opposed to vaccination, one of the most effective public health measures in history.

I wonder if the third word "are" was supposed to be "were" since that would make more sense in the context of the sentence and in light of the points that current opposition by the profession is minimal. Does anyone else have suggestions on how to reword this bit to reflect the concerns? Shell 19:24, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Shell, the split in philosophies of chiropractic was early, starting with D.D. Palmer and his son, B.J.Palmer, and some of his graduates who started schools of their own. D.D.Palmer was adamantly against anything allopathic, whereas his son had M.D.s in his school's staff. Also, being against vaccines was not something that was limited to D.D.Palmer at that time. Both in Britian, Europe, and America, compulsory vaccination was viewed as an infringement of civil liberties among many in the populace when "Big Medicine" was just emerging then. Because of civilian protests against mandatory vaccination, a new Vaccination Act in 1898 removed cumulative penalties and introduced a conscience clause, allowing parents who did not believe vaccination was efficacious or safe to obtain a certificate of exemption. This act introduced the concept of the "conscientious objector" into English law . So, I think a more NPOV way of presenting this would be to say more about the very early split, and to also say that at the time, anti-vaccination sentiments were more prevalent for the reasons of that time and era. --stmrlbs|talk 21:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

a more recent example of POV push

Take a look at what QuackGuru just added to this article . He adds the statement "Most chiropractors do not inform their patients that neck manipulation has risks of stroke or even death. He omits the article's title in the reference, which is "Chiropractic's Dirty Secret: Neck Manipulation and Strokes" written by Stephen Barrett. The actual statement in the article is "As far as I know, most chiropractors do not warn their patients that neck manipulation entails risks." Stephen Barrett is a retired psychiatrist, noted critic of anything alternative.. this is not a person that chiropractors would talk to about their office procedures. This is Stephen Barrett's opinion. But, does Quackguru present it as such? no.. he adds it to the article as a fact, with the edit summary saying "Add material from the most notable chiropractic critic. "Most chiropractors do not inform their patients that neck manipulation has risks of stroke or even death." The omission of "As far as I know" is rather blatant, and imo, telling of the QuackGuru's intent with this whole article. --stmrlbs|talk 03:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

i dont think that barretts opinions deserve to be presented on wikipedia let alone presented as fact 70.71.22.45 (talk) 05:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Sarcasm alert: Now that makes lots of sense! Of course, let's create an article that is about controversy and criticism, but leave out the opinions of critics. Maybe you would like to create such an article only quoting chiropractic supporters? Seriously now, you may not like Barrett, but he's a force to be reckoned with, his criticisms are very notable, he is far from alone in those criticisms, and the mainstream sides with him. No, you can't create an article like this and censor it by keeping out the opinions of notable critics. AND start using your account. If you want any respect here, you're not going to get it until you do. You have one, so use it. Brangifer (talk) 04:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

i disagree that the mainstream sides with his him. plz stop your bullying and harassment, i do not need to login to my account, something that i used for 1 day and decided i didnt like. given the content of the text in dispute here... wouldnt we need to follow WP:MEDRS?? if not, it should still be presented in context and not the way it was done! 70.71.22.45 (talk) 16:06, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree with 70.71.22.45. If a source isn't good enough for the main article, then it isn't good enough for the fork article. If it were, it would be another clear sign that this article is a POV Fork - which it is. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 16:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

References

Please keep this section at the bottom. TO ADD A NEW SECTION, just click the EDIT link at the right and add the new section ABOVE this one. Then copy the heading into the edit summary box.

1. Book review of "Trick or Treatment: The Undeniable Facts about Alternative Medicine." New England Journal of Medicine Volume 359:2076-2077 November 6, 2008 Number 19
2. Allareddy V, Greene BR, Smith M, Haas M, Liao J (2007). "Facilitators and barriers to improving interprofessional referral relationships between primary care physicians and chiropractors". J Ambul Care Manage. 30 (4): 347–54. doi:10.1097/01.JAC.0000290404.96907.e3. PMID 17873667.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
3. ^ Sign up now to keep the libel laws out of science! Sense about Science
4. The law has no place in scientific disputes. Sense about Science