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In relation to qigong and its roots in Chinese culture

In 1992, Li Hongzhi introduced Falun Gong and along with teachings that touched upon a wide range of topics, from detailed exposition on qigong related phenomenon and cultivation practice to science and morality. In the next few years, Falun Gong quickly grew in popularity across China to become the most popular qigong practice in Chinese History. Falun Gong was welcomed into the state-controlled Scientific Qigong Research Association, which sponsored and helped to organize many of his activities between 1992 and 1994, including 54 large-scale lectures. In 1992 and 1993 he won government awards at the Beijing Oriental Health Expos, including the "Qigong Master most acclaimed by the Masses" and "The Award for Advancing Boundary Science."

According to academics, Falun Gong originally surfaced in the institutional field of alternative Chinese science, not religion. The debate between what can be called "naturalist" and "supernaturalist" schools of qigong theory has produced a considerable amount of literature. Xu Jian stated in The Journal of Asian Studies 58 (4 November 1999): "Situated both in scientific researches on qigong and in the prevailing nationalistic revival of traditional beliefs and values, this discursive struggle has articulated itself as an intellectual debate and enlisted on both sides a host of well-known writers and scientists — so much so that a veritable corpus of literature on qigong resulted. In it, two conflicting discourses became identifiable. Taking “discourse” in its contemporary sense as referring to forms of representation that generate specific cultural and historical fields of meaning, we can describe one such discourse as rational and scientific and the other as psychosomatic and metaphysical. Each strives to establish its own order of power and knowledge, its own “truth” about the “reality” of qigong, although they differ drastically in their explanation of many of its phenomena. The controversy centers on the question of whether and how qigong can induce “supranormal abilities” (teyi gongneng). The psychosomatic discourse emphasizes the inexplicable power of qigong and relishes its super-normal mechanisms or which causative factors which go beyond wht canbe explained by presentday scietific models, whereas the rational discourse strives to demystify many of its phenomena and to situate it strictly in the knowledge present day modern science." The Chinese government has generally tried to encourage qigong as a science and discourage religious or supernatural elements. However, the category of science in China tends to include things that are generally not considered scientific in the West, including qigong and traditional Chinese medicine.

David Aikman has written in American Spectator (March 2000): "Americans may believe that qigong belongs in a general category of socially neutral, New Age-style concepts that are merely subjective, not necessarily harmful, and incapable of scientific proof. But China's scientific community doesn't share this view. Experiments under controlled conditions established by the Chinese Academy of Sciences in the late 1970s and early 1980s concluded that qi, when emitted by a qigong expert, actually constitutes measurable infrared electromagnetic waves and causes chemical changes in static water through mental concentration. Qi, according to much of China's scientific establishment, for all intents existed."

Li Hongzhi states in Falun Buddha Fa Lectures in Europe:

"Since the time Dafa was made public, I have unveiled some inexplicable phenomena in qigong as well as things that hadn’t been explained in the qigong community. But this isn’t the reason why so many people are studying Dafa. It’s because our Fa can truly enable people to Consummate, truly save people, and allow you to truly ascend to high levels in the process of cultivation. Whether it’s your realm of mind or the physical quality of your body, the Fa truly enables you to reach the standards of different levels. It absolutely can assume this role."

Andrew P. Kipnis is quoted as stating: "...to the Western layperson, qigong of all sorts may seem to be religious because it deals with spiritual matters. Because Li Hongzhi makes use of many concepts from Buddhism and Taoism in his writings, this may make Falun Gong seem even more like a religion to the outsider; bur Falun Gong grew initially into a space termed scientific , but was mostly insulated from the spaces formally acknowledged as institutionalized science in Western countries"

The term 'qigong' was coined in the early 1950s as an alternative label to past spiritual disciplines rooted Buddhism or Taoism, that promoted the belief in the supernatural, immortality and pursuit of spiritual transcendence. The new term was constructed to avoid danger of association with ancient spiritual practices which were labeled "superstitious" and persecuted during the Maoist era. In Communist China, where spirituality and religion are looked-down upon, the concept was "tolerated" because it carried with it no overt religious or spiritual elements; and millions flocked to it during China's spiritual vacuum of the 1980s and 1990s. Scholars argue that the immense popularity of qigong in China could, in part, lie in the fact that the public saw in it a way to improve and maintain health. According to Ownby, this rapidly became a social phenomenon of considerable importance.

Membership and finances

Sociologist Susan Palmer writes that, "...Falun Gong does not behave like other new religions. For one thing, its organization - if one can even call it that - is quite nebulous. There are no church buildings, rented spaces, no priests or administrators. At first I assumed this was defensive now, I'm beginning to think that what you see is exactly what you get - Master Li's teachings on the Net on the one hand and a global network of practitioners on the other. Traveling through North America, all I dug up was a handful of volunteer contact persons. The local membership (they vehemently reject that word) is whoever happens to show up at the park on a particular Saturday morning to do qigong."

Finances

In his thesis, Noah Porter takes up the issue of Falun Gong and finance in Mainland China. He quotes and responds to some of the allegations of the Chinese Communist Party that Li benefited financially from teaching the practice. Porter writes that when teaching seminars, there was an admission of 40 yuan per new practitioner and 20 yuan for repeat practitioners--with the repeat practitioners making up for 50-75% of the admissions. He goes on to say with respect to the CCP's claims: "...but the Chinese government figures for the profits of the seminars counted all attendees as paying the 40-yuan fee charged to newcomers. Also, the Chinese Qigong Research Society received 40% of admission receipts from July 1993 to September 1994. Falun Gong's first four training seminars took in a total of 20,000 yuan, which is only 10% of the 200,000 figure cited by the Chinese government. Finally, from that 20,000 yuan, they had several operating expenses..."

Ian Johnson points out that during the greatest period of Falun Gong book sales in China, Li Hongzhi never received any royalties because all publications were bootleg.

James Tong writes about the competing claims by Falun Gong and the Chinese government in 'The China Quarterly' journal, 2003. He writes that the government has attempted to portray Falun Gong as being financially savvy with a centralized administration system and a variety of mechanisms for deriving profit from the practice. He also looks over Falun Gong's claims of having no hierarchy, administration, membership or financial accounts, and that seminar admission was charged at a minimal rate. Tong writes that it was in the government's interest, in the post-crackdown context, to portray Falun Gong as being highly organised: "The more organized the Falun Gong could be shown to be, then the more justified the regime's repression in the name of social order was." He writes that the government's charges that Falun Gong made excessive profits, charged exorbitant fees, and that Li Hongzhi led a lavish lifestyle "...lack both internal and external substantiating evidence" and points out that that despite the arrests and scrutiny, the authorities "had disclosed no financial accounts that established the official charge and credibly countered Falun Gong rebuttals."

Li Hongzhi stipulates in his books Falun Gong and Zhuan Falun that practitioners should only voluntarily help others learn the exercises and that this could never be done for fame and money, and also stipulates that practitioners must not accept any fee, donation or gift in return for their voluntarily teaching the practice. According to Falun Gong, Li's insistence that the practice be offered free of charge caused a rift with the China Qigong Research Society, the state administrative body under which Falun Dafa was initially introduced. Li subsequently withdrew from the organization.

Falun Gong website often state on their pages that "All Falun Gong Activities Are Free of Charge and Run by Volunteers"

In an interview in Sydney on May 2, 1999, mentioning his financial status, Li said : "In mainland China I published so many books, but added together, they haven't exceeded twenty thousand Renminbi (equivalent to US $ 2,469). This is what the publishing company gave me. When publishing books in other countries of the world, you know there is a rule, which pays 5 or 6% royalties to the author, so each time I can only get a little bit, a few hundred, or a few thousand dollars."

Claims vs. Estimate

Another thing reverted here is the estimate wording. Falun Gong has no membership, so nobody can claim any number of practitioners, the best that it can do is to estimate how many practitioners there are based statistics like this: . --HappyInGeneral (talk) 10:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

~~So those people with yellow shirts who hang around on street corners AREN'T Falun Gong members... wow, could have fooled me.~~ Ok, perhaps that was too sarcastic. But my point is that even if Falun Gong's membership is informal there are still clearly people who identify themselves as members of the Falun Gong. Nobody buys the falun gong as exercise set argument here. Simonm223 (talk) 11:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Estimations are based on some scientific evaluation of data (such as extrapolation or interpolation), and this has not been demonstrated in any way. When one party is trying to talk up the numbers while another is trying to talk them down, we have a 'claim'/'counterclaim' situation and no longer an estimation. Ohconfucius (talk) 13:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, as with everything I went and actually checked:

http://en.wiktionary.org/claim => the closest I found is: "A new statement of truth made about something."
http://en.wiktionary.org/estimate => the closest that I found is: "A rough calculation or guess."

the links are here, please go ahead and double check. Based on this I'm sure that nobody did a headcount, that is not possible, so it can not be "A new statement of truth made about something.", on the other hand based on the research they did, like here, it is possible to say that they made "A rough calculation or guess.".--HappyInGeneral (talk) 21:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

“

Falun Dafa guides people to cultivate their xinxing to be good people according to the characteristics of the universe, Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance, fundamentally eliminating illnesses, cleansing people's hearts, purifying their souls, and leading people on the path to returning to their original, true selves. Within seven years, Dafa had spread widely across China. More than one hundred million people practiced it.

”

Perhaps I am just being skeptical, but none of this chunk of text lends much credibility for an "estimate". It is a "claim" at best. One could even argue that within the context it is presented, it doesn't belong in the lede at all. Colipon+(Talk) 01:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry but nobody collects the name and address of people who download the book and start to cultivate. So the number is a rough estimation. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

There is an obvious difference between even thee wiktionary definition of the words, but it seems like we are really talking semantics here. "statement of truth" can equate to "statement of belief" of "assertion". I would argue that estimate is not a 'guess' but more like a calculation. Why else would people bother to coin the word 'guesstimate'? Ohconfucius (talk) 04:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

On this I would go on the term in that dictionary. And that number can not be anything else then an educated guess/estimation, based on various factors like the number of practice sites, and maybe download statistics, people showing up at events, etc. etc. It definitely can not be a "statement of truth" because there are no procedure in Falun Dafa to get the exact figures. Plus if we say that Clearwisdom a site run by Falun Gong practitioners estimates the total number of practitioners to be more then 100 million, then that is a correctly sourced and attributed statement. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Merriam Webster dictionary defines 'claim' to be: "to assert in the face of possible contradiction : maintain <claimed that he'd been cheated> b : to claim to have <organization…which claims 11,000…members — Rolling Stone> "; 'estimate' is defined as "to judge tentatively or approximately the value, worth, or significance of b : to determine roughly the size, extent, or nature of c : to produce a statement of the approximate cost of".
Thesaurus.com lists synonyms of 'claim' to be: "adduce, advance, allege, ask, assert, believe, call for, challenge, collect, declare, defend, exact, have dibs on something, hit, hit up, hold, hold out for, insist, justify, knock, lay claim to, need, pick up, pop the question, postulate, pretend, profess, pronounce, require, requisition, solicit, stake out, take, uphold, vindicate "; 'estimate' is defined as "approximate calculation; educated guess"; synonyms are listed as "appraisal, appraisement, assay, assessment, ballpark figure, belief, conclusion, conjecture, estimation, evaluation, gauging, guess, guesstimate, impression, judgment, measure, measurement, mensuration, opinion, point of view, projection, rating, reckoning, sizing up, stock, surmise, survey, thought, valuation". Ohconfucius (talk) 11:28, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, so can we agree that the words are similar? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

They are as I defined earier above. Do you see 'estimate' being listed as a synonym of 'claim', and vice versa? I don't. Ohconfucius (talk) 11:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Fine, then do you agree that when Clearwisdom published this number it was done on "educated guess"? If not an educated guess then what is the base of their published number? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no basis really. NRMs are known to jack up the numbers of their followers to makes themselves look more credible. 100 million is just not believable. That's 1 in 12 Chinese. Having lived in China during this period I just cannot see how this is a logical conclusion. Colipon+(Talk) 11:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Its a total for 114 countries. And in China you will readily see self declared Falun Gong practitioners only in Labor Camps. Right? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

We've come full circle here. FalunGongers have been happily using 'say' whenever it comes to FG or a pro-FG source, and then 'claim' when it comes to a pro-Chinese government/CCP source. We've just been through what looked very much like a charade, trying to justify the use of 'estimate' for their claim of "over 100 million practitioners". Now, we hear that it was perhaps an educated guess. I felt some wool over my eyes. ;-) Ohconfucius (talk) 13:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Fine, would it make you happy if I would drop the subject? Just because I updated the value based on source and now it says that they claim the number of practitioners to be over 100 million, which then is basically an estimate and not a statement of truth. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a very real question how reliable that source would be, unfortunately. It seems to be at least superficially almost self-published, in terms of the web page being one of FG practicioners/advocates/whatever. If it can be demonstrated that other more clearly independent sources have used the site as a source of information, then it might meet RS standards. As is, I think it can be used to indicate that FG advocates state that number, but, because it doesn't seem to indicate how the number was arrived at, particularly considering the source based on the information available is not necessarily the most reliable, I think personally that using "claims" would probably be better, because we are given no idea how the number was arrived at and there is at least potentially a very serious question regarding the reliability and independence of the source. John Carter (talk) 22:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

"Claim" is quite the right word here. We wouldn't even have this discussion if everybody here had a dispassionate attitude to the movement we're writing about. COI. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 14:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Right then the word estimate would be just as good. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 18:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

<blank stare> It would appear that nothing I said got through. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

My 2c worth... Could the right term be "asserts"? It seems that "one group (ccp) asserts x, FG asserts y" is the indivisible unit of knowledge here. 58.6.92.66 (talk) 11:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)BadBob

Some IPs need gold medals for thinking outside the prescribed box. Good suggestion... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, I would have no problems with that word, which I use interchangedly with 'claim', 'opine', etc. The word 'estimate' implies a greater accuracy than ought to actually be ascribed to how parties actually arrive at their numbers. Ohconfucius (talk) 13:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Altering the text to say that FG "asserts", "states", "says", etc., a given number of adherents works for me, although of the three I mention I would favor either "asserts" or "says". John Carter (talk) 16:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That's perfectly fine with me. Colipon+(Talk) 18:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Singer

A look into the background of professor Margaret Singer and it is clear that if she has an agenda, it is an anti-cult agenda, not a pro-Communist one. I removed the reference to Singer being "sympathetic to goals". Even if there are some sources that paint Singer this way, inserting an awkward quote like this is highlights an undue connection between Singer and the Communists, which is not at all necessary given the context. If, perhaps, Singer was a Maoist herself or has notably supported CCP policies on other issues in the past, we can make this connection valid. But Singer has not demonstrated much of an explicit support for any anti-Falun Gong measures taken by the PRC government. She merely criticizes Falun Gong in its own right. Singer's Falun Gong writings have been noticeably less inflammatory than the CCP. This is the reason that even if this phrase or anything along the same vein is sourced, it is a poor representation of who Singer really is. Colipon+(Talk) 10:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

One can be "sympathetic to goals" for many reasons, and usually the most telling if somebody is or is not is their words and actions, right? So if there is a source saying that she is "sympathetic to goals" then this statement when it is correctly attributed and sourced can be inserted. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

But then you would be ignoring the well-known fact that FG pracititioners call all their critics "pro-CCP" as a rhetoric device. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 14:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Well aren't they usually "pro-CCP"? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 18:54, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Your leaps in logic reminds me of those highschool reasoning questions : Nazi's always hate Gays, therefore all Anti Gays are Nazi lovers. True or False? Bedbug1122 (talk) 00:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Bedbug you got it all wrong. What's more, that comment was a smear. Kindly strike it out. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Margaret's Singer's agenda had nothing to do with being "pro-CCP". The idea that anyone critical of FG is pro-CCP is alarmingly paranoid. In the American context critical perspectives, especially in relation to the "cult" label, have little to anything to do with CCP propaganda. I'm not sure how anyone can believe otherwise. Most Americans distrust the Chinese government. Singer's agenda was an anti-cult agenda which has nothing to do with Chinese politics.PelleSmith (talk) 02:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

You hit the nail on the head with "Well aren't they usually "pro-CCP"?" - by that I mean you hit the nail on the head as to why we have problems with the way you approach virtually all these articles. Anyone who doesn't share your views is automatically "pro-CCP" in your world.

Well, truth says "no, it ain't". Accept the notion that one can be critical of and even heavily criticize Falun Gong without being a spy for or sympathizer with the Chinese government. If you find yourself unable to accept that notion, you will simply have to get out and leave. Seriously. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Intervention

This bunch of unsubstantiated edits by HappyInGeneral (talk · contribs) are disruptive to the great amount of progress that has been made so far by editors from all different walks of wiki who have dedicated time into this extremely contentious article. As such I will now revert it. If there are any grievances or issues arising from this please discuss. Colipon+(Talk) 22:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Colipon, let me elaborate, then tell me which one of the edits is unsubstantiated and why:

20:03, 7 September 2009 Colipon (talk | contribs) (52,916 bytes) (rv SPS, POV, etc. Undid revision 312449859 by HappyInGeneral (talk)) => You did not engage yet in the talk that was started here. Please address them.
~~21:30, 7 September 2009 HappyInGeneral (talk | contribs) (53,207 bytes) (›Membership) => I added a WP:RS regarding the number of practitioners~~ fixed.
21:31, 7 September 2009 HappyInGeneral (talk | contribs) (53,189 bytes) (›Media branches and PR Strategies: remove WP:OR) => I changed PR Strategies into appeals, if you go through the sources in that section you will see that that is a Human Rights Appeal and not PR Strategy
21:40, 7 September 2009 HappyInGeneral (talk | contribs) (53,173 bytes) (›The 'cult' debate) => here I split up the section into supporters and critics of the cult term, otherwise it is intermigled and it is not clear what is the WP:Due on the subject
21:53, 7 September 2009 HappyInGeneral (talk | contribs) (54,696 bytes) (›Critics of the 'cult' term: amnesty) => in these revisions I added more informations correctly sourced and attributed.

Thanks --HappyInGeneral (talk) 22:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

In my eyes the only valuable NPOV-passing edit in that group was number 2. So you can restore that if you would like. Also, if you believe my treatment of the content was unfair, you can ask other editors if you would like. I merely reverted because I cannot assume "good faith" on these edits, sorry. Without directly speaking out against you personally, I would like to point out that your edit patterns and open advocacy are often in direct violation to the article probation and as such must cease. A recurring theme for pro-FLG editors on this article is to subtly "tip the POV balance" in favour of Falun Gong and these edits are a typical example. Colipon+(Talk) 22:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, so we agree on nr. 2, then I restored that part. For the rest it is troubling that you are unable to assume "good faith", because that is necessary in order to have a constructive environment. Still it is not really relevant either, because we are discussing sources not opinions, so please address what is the problem with how the sources are attributed and presented on point 5, or with the structural change made for clarity in point 4. Point 1, is discussed in another thread above and point 3 is not that important. Thanks. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The thing that we need to avoid right now is to make presentation of everything a "for" or "against" battle. The earlier "cult" section did this extremely well in that it put everything in a fluid context that a reader can easily follow. Adding headings and then restructuring everything to "pro" and "con" makes the presentation more black-and-white and therefore much more misleading. Colipon+(Talk) 23:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

"much more misleading" because? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 00:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Re the above points, I would comment as follows:

We have dealt with this before, and I definitely don't feel such detail and esoteric language is suitable for the lead.
agreed
it's all to do with the use of media to get the political message across. Although I don't find it misleading or POV, I will try and find a better term.
I have rearranged the section slightly. It was essentially rewritten from the previous problematic version by third party editor PelleSmith, and I agree that it is more neutral than any version we have had before. Splitting is unnecessary because it breaks up the flow of argumentation, and becomes an invitation for either 'side' to firebomb with quotes which favour their own arguments.
I believe you were trying to make a point with this edit. It is exactly the sort of disruptive firebombing which has blocked progress at this family of articles for so long, contributing to the significant bloat. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Please state your opinion in the relevant section #Partial_rv_to_intro.
ok
"it's all to do with the use of media to get political message across." here is one point where your POV is showing because you are stating things that are not in accordance with the majority of WP:RS and is against common sense, because what practitioners are doing is a Human Rights Appeal. There is no political party favored in their message, there is only a call to stop the persecution.
OK, I'll go and check
What is disruptive in adding sources and balancing a blatantly POV version of the cult label? What is disruptive in this talk? Isn't it more destructive to have lightning fast reverts without proper discussions, basically owning the article? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 20:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

No one person owns the article. In fact there has been a very large group of editors working in concert to improve the article. I would suggest that it is in fact you who might want to consult WP:OWN.Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

HappyInGeneral, there is no need to lash out at other editors for WP:OWN when a vast array of editors have finally begun to work on solid content on these articles and disassembling the Falun Gong POV fortress that SPAs have built in the past two years. To me it is not only ironic but also disrespectful to good faith editors. Colipon+(Talk) 02:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

1. I did. What d'ya think this was?

3. nobody said there was party politics involved. There can be politics without parties.

5. It appears that when you get to the point where it is in 'balance' for you, most of us have an issue with WP:UNDUE on our hands. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Cult section

The cult section has been slowly unbalanced and turned POV. Editing has also left it downright misleading in parts. It now makes it appear that there the "cult" perspective on FG in academia is at least on par with the perspective that does not use the cult label which is grossly inaccurate. It also makes it seem like the reason for not using the label has more to do with politics than with scholarly veracity which is also innaccurate. Who calls them a cult other than Kavan (whose expertise has nothing to do with the classification of social groups) and Singer (whose theories are fringe)? To make matters worse the connection between Singer and the ACM has been categorically removed and now this misleading gem of a sentence appears

"However, most social scientists and scholars of religion reject "brainwashing" theories of the Anti-cult movement and do not use the term 'cult' the way Singer does."

Scholars reject brainwashing theories, in total, and not simply those "of the Anti-cult movement". The reference I provided specifically mentions Singer and her colleagues, meaning Singer and other psychologists who promoted these theories. And why was Kavan removed at the end of the sentence as well? they do not use the term the way Singer and Kavan do. Didn't I make it abundantly clear that Kavan's definition of "cult" has no resemblance to academic definitions outside the anti-cult leaning academic fringe? As I've said before, as long as this kind of manipulation of balance exists there will always be edit warring because even the pro-FLG editors are pushing back against POV. And you know what, at least their POV is obvious, open and easy to identify. I'm not going to edit this entry again as I said above, but it would be nice to at least hear someone refute what I have said instead of just ignoring then subtly pushing this anti-cult POV into the entry.PelleSmith (talk) 11:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

PelleSmith: Could you please also make an assessment on my edit, and please let me know if it is WP:POV as Colipon states or WP:UNDUE as Ohconfucius states. As I see it the revert leads to a content loss because 2 well sourced quotes where removed and it leads to NPOV as you stated above. The edit was allowed 10 minutes of existence. Since I tried to follow the WP:BRD cycle strictly in the #Intervention section, but without an independent assessment I don't see any voice of reason there. Thank you! --HappyInGeneral (talk) 12:04, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

FYI: more information on the cult label can be found here however this content now is available only in the archives. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 12:20, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

As Colipon states the pro v. con structure you created is in fact misleading and I would not suggest using it. The "Academic views on Falun Gong" section about the "cult" label you linked to above is way too bloated in my mind and should not be replicated here as it was written, but it does exemplify something that others here appear to be in denial of -- that calling Falun Gong a "cult" is a fringe POV. Notably this isn't simply a matter of people who use the label at all vs. people who never use it although the general lack of legitimacy of that term in academic disciplines also factors in heavily. When some editors wanted to flat out label Singer's perspective as "fringe" and remove Kavan due to the fact that she is not a social scientist (both legitimate suggestions) I tried to write a version which was less harsh than reality is in this regard but apparently any suggestion that the cult label isn't mainstream just wont cut it around here. I'm also rather displeased at how subtely this was accomplished. In edit summaries PerEdman demanded verification of various items like Singer's association with the ACM and the fact that brainwashing is a fringe view among scholars. When I provided references to both, and even added a direct quote about Singer so that there was no room for ambiguity the quote about Singer was removed as "awkward" and the brainwashing statement was rendered misleading by claiming that only the ACM's brainwashing theories are out of fashion. Of course I think that in general pro-FLG editors have been consistently trying to POVize and bloat the entry with their perspective so I can't blame some for being reactionary. On the other hand I don't understand why anyone who is interested in a neutral entry would work this hard to twist the scholarly perspective. This is why editing here is just frustrating and I don't wish to do it again.PelleSmith (talk) 12:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

On reading the critique of the changes above, I now realise that perhaps I did not fully grasp the pertinent issues in this debate, and how subtle bias can creep in. I am certainly responsible for some of the changes, and would work towards putting some of those more subtle elements back. I may well have removed mention of Kavan subscribing to brainwashing theories, thinking it would be alright because I removed her direct assertion that FLG was a cult. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the candid reply. In her essay Kavan specifically mentions "mind-control" as one of the characteristics of a cult. I'm not entirely clear how directly she claims this is an aspect of Falun Gong, but it certainly puts her in that camp. The larger issue here appears to be that the cult label is a minority perspective among experts. The very first sentence of this section should make the statement clear that most scholars do not characterize them as a cult. Then I suggest moving to the government use of the term, the anti-cult movement and then the minority scholarly perspective. When dealing with the majority perspective the weight given to that perspective should be clear. The rejection of brainwashing and anti-cult categories in general should also be clear (and not hidden as has unfortunately has become). I also highly suggest re-adding the link between Singer and the ACM. I sourced this more than adequately. I have no idea what people's motivations are here and am not accusing anyone of bad faith. But the more I point these things out to no avail the more cynical I become.PelleSmith (talk) 14:12, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Reverting to my original version may not be the best way forward since other productive changes are then also lost, but clearly I think this is preferable to some of the changes I described above.PelleSmith (talk) 14:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Pelle, all I can suggest is just to stick around. Just take a detached approach, don't worry about the outcome, and focus on the process and on taking each step well. It's clear that there is manipulation and POV-pushing here, and I've even done this in the past, like cherry-picking quotes, thinking that this is a good idea because it agrees with my philosophical proclivities with regard to the subject, etc.. I refuse to do this anymore. Anyway, it's plain to see who is doing it and when, and through the process of discussion, dissecting edits, and so on, people's consistency and credibility gets revealed. Those trying to game the system long term will fail, and they'll get banned. My advice is to approach things in a detached way, just keep doing what you're doing. The other side of the coin is not to always first assume ideological motivations when people raise concerns that would appear to fit in with what their suspected proclivities are. It would be easier if we were non-emotional beings.--Asdfg12345 03:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Mainstream vs. fringe

Below I suggest listing scholars who use the "cult" label to describe Falun Gong and those that do not. More explicitly those who use other descriptors instead. After this it may be helpful to break out those who do not into those who explicitly disagree with the label in regards to Falun Gong and why. I have started this for you. In case there is any confusion I put the sources in parentheses when I found them on my own outside of what is in this entry so they could be verified.PelleSmith (talk) 13:02, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Use cult

Kavan, Heather
Singer, Margaret

Don't use cult

Bell, Mark R. ("Falun Gong and the Internet: Evangelism, Community, and Struggle for Survival," Nova Religio)
Boas, Taylor C. ("Falun Gong and the Internet: Evangelism, Community, and Struggle for Survival," Nova Religio)
Burgdoff, Craig A ("How Falun Gong Practice Undermines Li Hongzhi's Totalistic Rhetoric," Nova Religio)
Chan, Cheris Shun-ching
Edelman, Bryan
Fisher, Gareth ("Resistance and Salvation in Falun Gong: The Promise and Peril of Forbearance," Nova Religio")
Irons, Jeremy ("Falun Gong and the Sectarian Religion Paradigm," Nova Religio)
Lowe, Scott ("Chinese and International Contexts for the Rise of Falun Gong," Nova Religio)
Lu, Yungfeng ("Entrepreneurial Logics and the Evolution of Falun Gong," Journal of the Scientific Study of Religion)
Ownby, David
Palmer, Susan
Porter, Noah
Richardson, James T.
Wessinger, Catherine ("Falun Gong Symposium Introduction and Glossary," Nova Religio)

A couple of corrections here. It is not outright conclusive that Heather Kavan labels Falun Gong a "cult", nor does she necessarily imply it. I think she believes that Falun Gong has "cult-like characteristics" in its charismatic leader and manipulative doctrine, but having read her paper, I get the feeling that she was trying to take a more objective stance. So the only one on that list who explicitly labels Falun Gong a cult is Margaret Singer (and Rick Ross, who is not mentioned on the list).

On the flip side of the same coin, academics do not explicitly label Falun Gong a "cult" for a wide variety of reasons. One of the most important reasons is that "cult" carries with it extremely negative connotations, and another is that it would place these academics on par with the Chinese government, whose charges against Falun Gong are exaggerated and politically motivated. However, many academics who distance themselves from CCP views (including Ownby, Chan, Irons, Burgdoff, Rahn, etc) are critical of Falun Gong in its various aspects.

In retrospect, perhaps it was not appropriate to zoom in public debate on the "cult" question alone, but rather on the more broad question of Falun Gong's controversies in their entirety. To the average reader, a summary of who thinks Falun Gong is a cult and who does not does little to contextualize the views of Falun Gong's critics (i.e. academic criticism, not just negative criticism). It is for this reason that I propose the section be re-worked into smaller sections, renamed "Public debate", and if necessary, build an article for Criticism of Falun Gong. I realize that a section like this would lead to an uproar and POV wars, but it is not an excuse to not give Criticism of Falun Gong due weight in the articles. Colipon+(Talk) 18:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Then there should be a "controversies and criticisms" section and not a "cult debate" section. Using the "cult debate" in place of such a section is either lazy or an appeal to the anti-cult POV which would lump criticisms together with the label in ways that academics would not do. I started this thread in relation to the label specifically and not in relation to critical perspectives on Falun Dong in general. In fact the conflation of those two things is precisely what I worry about.PelleSmith (talk) 19:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh I completely agree. That was the plan at FLGNEW as well. There was an entire article on "Criticisms and controversies of Falun Gong", but it was written mostly by anti-Falun Gong activist Sam Luo, who is now banned (however, the content is well-sourced and deserve to be given its due weight, but the tone definitely needs to be changed from its originals). Critical content on Falun Gong was then slowly modified, reorganized, whitewashed and eventually just completely removed by several SPAs. I would opt to restore and contextualize some of the old content and add some new content as well. Colipon+(Talk) 19:42, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree as well. The cult section is itself somewhat useful, as there is a question regarding whether the term is really appropriate, but the broader criticism and controversy content is very directly relevant as well. Personally, I would myself probably opt for making the cult question section a subsection of the broader criticism and controversies section, as it is effectively dealing with a single point relevant to that broader topic. John Carter (talk) 01:09, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

It's unclear why a name like "criticism and controversies" would be more desireable than "reception." The first is negative, the latter is neither positive nor negative. If there were a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies, to maintain a neutral point of view, would there then also be a section called "agreements and praise"? Silly, right? Why the proclivity for argument and criticism rather than consensus and praise? I don't understand, I think it should just be called reception, which includes all points of view, and let's get on with life. The list of cult/non-cult academics is useful; there may be another list of academics which disavow the cultic label in terms of Falun Gong. I think it would be longer and of a higher quality than the pro-cult list. This, to me, shows that it is a minority view as defined by wikipedia policies.--Asdfg12345 03:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

made some changes. I really appreciate how there are these different streams of debate going on in these pages now. the pro-FLG pov is being cleaned up, which is good. let's be wary of going too far the other way though as a reaction. i will really do my best to put aside time each day to come and edit and participate in discussion. if there are issues with my recent edits, for example, let's discuss them. --Asdfg12345 04:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Just have to say that the constant removal of information about the persecution is really weird, even troubling. It's one of the most notable aspects of this topic, yet people constantly try to sideline it, all the while acknowledging that the persecution is real, apparently because they would not want to appear like CCP propagandists, but yet still forging ahead with edits that are inconsistent with this. Having no section here about the persecution, for example, is an example of this. I find it so disingenuous. It undermines the idea that we can have freewheeling and open discussion of all the issues on the pages. It's incredibly obvious that this is happening, and is a hugely notable aspect of the subject. I'm sure we could do some algorithms, searching through different media reports in large quantities and finding out how many have "persecution" and "torture" in them, for example. This would be an evidence-based way of establishing the notability and WP:DUEness of the various claims, taking it completely outside the scope of ideological stances. Who would be amenable to this sort of approach, in different circumstances? The only thing we'd have to discuss is the best ways to conduct the analyses and whta they should be. I could get a 10,000 source, 50meg html document and run some algorithms to compare how often different words appear, for example. I bet if I did this it would be clear the "persecution" turns up a whole lot. I'll put the section back later, and look at a lot of the other changes. I'm really pleased about some of the developments, but also concerned about others. The attempt to purge the pages of all reference to the persecution, for example, should be a big concern to anyone who upholds the principles of wikipedia, which most certainly does not cater to political censorship.--Asdfg12345 04:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't knkw what happened to the Kavan stuff. It seems to have got bloated in all the wrong ways, and was not properly attributed to her. Some of the stuff attributed to her (through citation) was not anywhere to be found from my reading of same, so that has been removed. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Kavan said this about the CCP vs. FLG propaganda war. At the heart of the battle between the Chinese government and Falun Gong are two warring ideologies with highly committed protagonists. Both use the media as pawns. Both use the same rhetorical strategies: issuing blanket denials when accused, devising conspiracy stories, and redirecting allegations by accusing the other of the same thing. What is being played out is a conflict of intransigent beliefs. The Western media’s uncritical acceptance of Falun Gong’s version suggests that Li, by appealing to ideals of amelioration of suffering and freedom of religion, has produced a story that the West wants to believe. Ownby and Rahn make similar comparisons. Colipon+(Talk) 09:42, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

How do Ownby and Rahn express this comparison?PelleSmith (talk) 14:55, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

There was also the issue of the weasely worded 'academics' was used when there's only one reference, so if there are others, the references should be added accordingly. Unfortunately, I don't have access to Rahn or Ownby. Ohconfucius (talk) 11:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I like that Kavan quote. I think it summarizes the issue quite well and in a very neutral tone.Simonm223 (talk) 14:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I think Heather Kavan actually did an excellent piece of research, I recommend it to you. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Is it published online or in any periodicals available in Canada?Simonm223 (talk) 15:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Kavan, Heather (July 2008). "Falun Gong in the media: What can we believe?" (PDF). E. Tilley (Ed.) Power and Place: Refereed Proceedings of the Australian & New Zealand Communication Association Conference, Wellington. {{cite journal}}: More than one of |author= and |last= specified (help); More than one of |work= and |journal= specified (help)

Yeah, found the link, reading now, highly impressed so far.Simonm223 (talk) 15:26, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

To be honest I can't say I agree. That a group would publicly promote a positive image of itself is pretty much common sense. That a group which is to some extent or another persecuted by it's government would specifically promote the image of itself as a victim of persecution is likewise commonsensical. It is in their self-interest to do so. Who expects Falun Gong's own PR apparatus to make the group look bad? Our own biases in the West are also obvious ... that we would side with the "persecuted" religious group against its "communist oppressors" is a given. What would have been useful is an analysis that contextualizes Falun Gong's own media efforts more thoroughly within the power dynamics that exist in China. Her comparison between a very powerful government and a minority group whose members feverishly believe they are being oppressed by this government is naive to say the least. And this is obvious to anyone remotely educated in the social sciences without any relevant area expertise. It really hits home in her prologue where she states: "This experience nevertheless highlighted for me the similarity between Falun Gong’s view of what constitutes fair media treatment and the Communist party’s model, which suppresses dissenting voices." She writes this after receiving angry phone calls from practitioners who mistakenly think she called their group evil. To react that way out of paranoia that Kavan is fueling Chinese persecution (however real or unreal the basis of that paranoia is) cannot simply be compared in this manner to the propaganda efforts of a world power in its attempts to maintain hegemony. Sure both sides may be engaged in misinformation of various kinds but to compare them like that is meaningless and misleading.PelleSmith (talk) 15:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I think that would ammount to asking Kavan to bias he work based on the fact that the PRC is stronger. So far Kavan's arguments seem convincing, reasonable and largely accurate. Of course I'm reading at work and so have to do so between job tasks so I've only read half of it so far.Simonm223 (talk) 16:01, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I also disagree. Falun Gong is actually a very unique phenomenon in China and in the greater context. Of course Falun Gong promotes itself, but it also goes out of its way to censor critical content. If you read a bit into Falun Gong's history you will learn that this is the reason the Communist leadership became afraid in the first place - that Falun Gong was able to control what was being said about it in the media (read BTV protest, Tianjin Normal University protest, Zhongnanhai protest etc.). Falun Gong lobbied many Chinese newspapers and TV stations to get rid of content critical of Falun Gong between 1996-99, before the government even got involved.

I think Kavan's paper sums up the Falun Gong situation very succinctly and accurately. Although she may not have the same academic credentials as Ownby, large chunks of the paper is highly sourced and she only takes a more subjective stance towards the end. Colipon+(Talk) 16:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Thorough scholarship does not equate to bias. Simon I'm a bit confused about your point. Scholarship should not be advocacy for one side or another period. However, adequately accounting for various social dynamics is part of understanding any social phenomenon. Kavan's comparison at the end of her paper is superficial and does not account for what are obvious differences in social context. Colipon even if Chinese government was 100% justified in how they treat the group that would have nothing to do with the fact that the two are simply not comparable in this superficial manner. What you quote is not a "summation of the situation" but a judgment of Kavan's and as I've stated a superficial one at that. A comparison is by definition a subjective act and I think this is particularly poor one. These two entities are working from very different motivations, are comprised of drastically different members and are achieving success in extremely different media systems (one Chinese the other Western) with their own predilections and biases.PelleSmith (talk) 16:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Finished reading now. Although her end statement may not be entirely rhetorically sound the body of the paper is a thorough and surprisingly neutral account of this religious group. I have to say that although I understand your concens with the postscript and phrasing I don't entirely agree with you. This is a much more reliable source than zhuangfalun.net and we use that.Simonm223 (talk) 16:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see that source anywhere, did you mistype it? I see no reason not to find Kavan reliable for facts about Falun Gong. This does not mean that every piece of analysis or every judgment in her essay (e.g. showing how they can be categorized as a "cult", or comparing their propaganda efforts flat out to those of the Chinese) should be treated as fact or as particularly meaningful if she is the only one making it. I've asked Colipon to quote from the other two scholars he says make the same comparison. I'm rather curious about how they express this same issue.PelleSmith (talk) 17:18, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Barend ter Haar also states: Commonalties are the focus on healing (at least in the early phase) and moral behavior as an explanatory paradigm for all kinds of personal and societal problems. On the other hand, we find a similar stress in pre 1976 PRC (Maoist) propaganda and political campaigns, which is when Li Hongzhi was culturally and ideologically formed (including a stint as an army musician). Colipon+(Talk) 17:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The fact that they utilize rhetorical strategies which share common cultural roots is indeed interesting (though not unexpected given that they are all Chinese after all), but this is a far cry from the superficial comparison Kavan is making in either quote mentioned above.PelleSmith (talk) 17:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

There's no revisionism going on, nor is there any attempt to expunge all traces of the word 'persecution', although I can imagine you feel that way. It's not a word to be thrown around like confetti, as has been the practice in the past. The article has become a POV nightmare because of over-reliance on jingoistic quotes, firebombing, misattribution, and other perversions. Stripping out instances of this jingoism is one sure way of neutralising the article's overt bias; so is removing 'persecution' when it has been incorrectly (not following source) or inappropriately used, and is properly attributed when used, is part of that work. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree. "Persecution" can be used, but not over-used, and specifically not over-used to reflect a particular POV (i.e. to gain moral high ground for Falun Gong). Colipon+(Talk) 15:52, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Falun Gong membership

Estimates of Falun Gong membership is extremely varied, and not what is currently being presented in the article. At the time of the crackdown in 1999, Falun Gong claimed 100 members (clearwisdom) while official state sources ranged from 30 to 80 million (People's daily). Post-crackdown numbers range anywhere from 2 million to Falun Gong's original claim of 100 million. The 2-million estimate can be reliably drawn from the number of regular Falun Gong practitioners who engage in "public" exercise and in proselytizing the "Fa", something they are required to do by Li. Therefore, it is safe to assume that the vast majority of Falun Gong practitioners are visible in public. 100 million would mean the number of FLG practitioners outnumber people living in Canada more than three-fold. Kavan estimates the number of Falun Gong practitioners in New Zealand (a FLG haven, out of just over 4 million people) to be a few hundred at best. The number for 100 million is simply not credible, given that Falun Gong claims to not have any organization and method of tracking members. NRMs are known to exaggerate membership, and my impression from scholarly works (especially Tong) is that as of 2009, a number like '100 million' is vastly exaggerated. Colipon+(Talk) 08:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that like their Nine Commentaries, I suspect there is likely to be quite a lot of double counting - probably including all those who followed the various schools of Qigong at some time or another before July 1999, and only updated for the recruits. Ohconfucius (talk) 09:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Kavan said "there are only approximately 100 Falun Gong members in New Zealand" Ohconfucius (talk) 09:12, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Ohconf, you are blatantly distorting the facts. Nine Commentaries are way better than anything the communists made!--FalunDafaDisciple (talk) 18:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Can we please ban this user? Colipon+(Talk) 19:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

What is Falun Gong?

That might sound like a stupid question, but David Onby indicates on page 4 of Falun Gong and the Future of China that there is "no consensus regarding the fundamental character of the group", and mentions as specific ideas put forward a "cultivation system", "heterodox cult", "spiritual movement", "new religious movement", and "a practice combining meditation and breathing exercises with a doctrine loosely rooted in Buddhist and Taoise teachings." Should the lede be adjusted to more clearly reflect that there is no clearly agreed upon definition of the nature of the group? John Carter (talk) 15:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I would say yes. This would be a good idea, so that we wouldn't have to label it as a cult (as China says) or a spritual group (as FLG says it).--Edward130603 (talk) 18:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

There was the line there is on-going debate about Falun Gong's classification as a religion, cult, or new religious movement. but that was suddenly removed by asdfg12345 (talk · contribs) a few days ago, and modified to say "there is debate about how Falun Gong should be classified". I just discovered it and put it back. Feel free to modify it as you see fit. Colipon+(Talk) 18:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Karma and qigong

OK, this may be a bit of a reach as well. We know that Li said karma was a substance physically found in the body. T his of course sounds to many westerners rather, well, odd. In Ownby's 2008 book, page 10, he states that during the qigong boom some well-known Chinese scientists claimed to have found the material existence of qi. Having this information included somewhere, probably the qigong article, would probably be useful. It would maybe also help to reference it here, to establish that Li's claims are not unprecedented.
By the way, the PRC's record for science in this area is not exactly spotless. I know that in a collection of Skeptical Inquirer articles I read several years ago, as I remember a collection of Martin Gardner's pieces, there was one in which it reported how Chinese citizens were able to prove conclusively that they were able to identifiy hidden objects in sealed boxes. The fact that these psychics were allowed to take the boxes home with them at least overnight, and, in some cases, returned them physically damaged and with the seals open, was not of course something that the government saw fit to take into account in these studies. John Carter (talk) 17:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The biggest problem in Chinese Academe at the moment is actually a tendency to see a failed hypothesis as a failure. As a result if data tends not to support an hypothesis the research is generally shelved and not spoken about again; furthermore information that tends to support an hypothesis may, on occasion, be treated credulously. Even China Daily has reported on this problem (though don't ask me to cite a date and page number, it was a random copy I read one day on my break back when I worked over there).Simonm223 (talk) 03:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Better

I have reverted everything to a better state. I'm sure that everyone except Ohconfucius will agree.--FalunDafaDisciple (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Please, someone ban this user immediately. Colipon+(Talk) 19:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

WOW.....that was a massive trail of destruction!--Edward130603 (talk) 22:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I 'd want this guy immediately banned as well. An obvious Joe job account - nothing more. He does nothing but make comments engineered to create a caricature out of the apparent perspective of supporters of Falun Gong.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 05:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)