Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Huaiwei (talk | contribs) at 16:59, 20 December 2005 (→[]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Welcome

Good morning, cheers, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Its always a pleasure to have another editor start up — can never have too many good editors.

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• Be bold in editing pages.
• A happy editor is an excellent editor. Enjoy yourself!

Cheers, →Iñgōlemo← 07:41, 2005 May 31 (UTC)

FAC

Just as a courtesy, this is to let you know that I have responded to your concerns regarding Pope John Paul II at WP:FAC. In addition, I just wanted some clarification regarding your concerns- see my response. Thanks for your input! Flcelloguy Give me a note! d.c. al fine? Desk 23:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Feminazi

Hi there, I was wondering if you could let me know explicitly which version of Feminazi you've reverted to ? Your edit summary ("RV to NPOV-compliant text") is a bit light on info. An An 06:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok, so you actually reworked the text, not reverted it. That's fine. An An 22:58, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Bob Dylan - it's a free world.

As far as I can see, I've only "screwed it up" for you. Last time I checked, these articles weren't owned by you. As far as I'm concerned I have improved them and added more pertinent details - all of which comes from information directly off of Dylan's LPs/CDs, and from reputatble sources such as www.allmusic.com, etc... As for NPOV, I've merely added in - as objectively as possible - what the general public perception was/is on the albums in question. To say "Dylan" was probably his least liked album is not POV - that's a fact! Besides, there's LOADS of it in his 60's albums articles, which I never wrote.

The album images have been updated to get rid of the "compact disc" logos so prevalent on Sony's 1980's CD issues.

As for the certfications, I'm sorry, but that page was messy and hard to follow. We don't need to know when "Blonde On Blonde" went gold, platinum and then double platinum. Just knowing that it's 2x platinum is good enough. If you feel so strongly, then add the www.riaa.com link at the bottom of the page so others can investigate more fully. Really, that section was such a mess. At least now it has a pleasant look.

Having the album called "Bob Dylan at Budokan" (which is how it's referred to in "Billboard") makes more sense than "At Budokan (Bob Dylan)" if his name has to be there anyway.

I spent a LOT of time working on those articles and I welcome corrections. But I'll be watching those pages for unwarranted and petty deletions - and they will be restored. PetSounds 04:40, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

In other words, you're unwilling to even consider compromise, unwilling to provide sources, and unwilling to respond to the specific errors I mentioned on your talk page -- so unwilling that you even edited them out. You've already been blocked for inappropriate edit warring once, and you're behaving like you haven't learned a bit. Monicasdude 06:02, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Er....I am offering a compromise. If you read my reply at all, I said to create a link to the RIAA so that the dates of Dylan's certs would be available to all and sundry and the page, as such, would not look cluttered. You're the one who appears to be unwilling to compromise if you switch all of my work without inquiring first. And I also said that I welcome corrections, but that I won't tolerate petty deletions (because you think you know better) when I'm using Dylan's actual CDs/LPs, the Billboard chart books and critical reviews of the time (be it Rolling Stone or All Music Guide) as legitimate sources. Saying that Blood on the Tracks is one of his best-loved albums is not POV, that is fact. Saying "I really really like Blood on the Tracks, man! It's the best!" - now THAT's POV. I have not done that - ever

Also, you are correct about myself having little to learn in my one and only brief blocking (which was lifted early once it was realized that I was not at fault), due to a very difficult member who was very hostile and stubborn, and I had no idea about the 3RR rule. I am open to working this out. A revert war is not the answer (you know the 3RR rule, and you're perilously close to violating it and getting blocked yourself). So leave let's leave it as it is and we can discuss what needs to be fixed. PetSounds 21:44, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

No. You are not offering a compromise. You are demanding that that all edits to pages you are involved in have your approval. You do not provide sources. You do not respect consensus. You have posted dishonest comments and personal abuse on my talk page. You appear to be engage in continuous edit warring on other pages. And you went whining to an admin you believe to be your buddy rather than following the established dispute resolution procedures. You are the functional equivalent of a vandal and should be treated as one. You still have provided no reference for your position on any contested points. Monicasdude 05:36, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I have seen your message on my talk page and I have no time to reply fully now because I must return to the real world. Without commenting on the merits of your position (which I have not explored), I am worried by any message that accuses another editor of "whining" or one that asserts "appalling misbehaviour" (it is the intensifying modifier "appalling" that alarms me). To see both smacks of incivility. Both you and PetSounds seem heated over this issue so particular attention to courtesy is necessary if a swift resolution is to be achieved. I will respond more fully when I return. —Theo (Talk) 10:42, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I have now looked at some parts of this (you can see my analysis here) and, from what I can see, most of your criticisms of PrtSounds' edits were valid but your comments were too harsh to be persuasive. Repeated reversions are very rarely helpful. In this case both of you could have stayed civil and held a more constructive conversation had you not got enmeshed in an edit war. I think that your interactions would be more effective if you paid more attention to the likely response of the reader. In most wikiconflicts both parties are acting in good faith and fight over a misunderstanding. I think that this is such a case. By reverting PetSounds early changes you led him to draw the reasonable inference that you saw no value in any of his contributions. Imagine how that feels. When he argued his case, you reflected it in a hardened form. In effect you drew battle lines instead of seeking alliance. I understand that you are now in conflict over various Beach Boys articles. I have not looked at any of this and I would prefer the two of you to resolve your differences amicably. Please set aside your past interactions with PetSounds and contribute to that resolution in a softer manner; that way we can all get on with the good work that you, PetSounds and I have all been doing. If you do wish me to review the Beach Boys articles, you need only ask. —Theo (Talk) 17:25, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

John Wesley Harding

Thank you for drawing my attention to what you characterise as misbehaviour at John Wesley Harding (album). It seems to me that PetSounds inappropriately flagged three of his four changes as minor edits. I will advise him of this. Ultimately, however, I feel that your subsequent reversion of all his edits seems unduly harsh even if he did not discuss them all on the talk page and flagged them as minor. His changes amounted to addition of album length, an assertion that the album topped the British charts "for a long spell", addition of track lengths and a series of wiki link fixes. Your reversion of all these on the grounds you cite sits uncomfortably with me.

I am also uncomfortable with what I see as the incivil tone of the message that you left on my talk page. Your "little buddy," as he seems to think of himself is demeaning and uses a phrase that noone but you has used. I would prefer to believe that PetSounds believes himself to be right (just as do you) and expects me to help him becasue he sees me as evenhanded. Your claim that he tried to sneak a disputed reference back into the article by marking the edit "fix typo errors." is not consistent with the article history unless you mean that the album length is a reference. He made a series of small but significantly incorrect changes to the John Wesley Harding page suggests that you disagree on the album length, the qualitative duration of the chart topping, the track lengths, and the wiki linking. This seems extreme; are you getting hung up on the editor rather than the edits? trying to cover up his actions with deliberately misleading edit summaries. is itself misleading: the misleading summary is singular; your misstatement exaggerates the position and again gives me an impression of personal animosity on your behalf. Your allegation that It's that he doesn't behave honestly, and that he's not editing in good faith. would look better were you to be scrupulously accurate and fair in your own comments. I am not defending PetSounds' mistakes; his errors are no justification for others by you or anyone else, however. —Theo (Talk) 12:15, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I held off on responding to this initially, because I found its tone and substance infuriating; on reflection, I believe my initial impression was sound. I believe your dislike for my rough-edged style has led you to overlook/disregard the substantive bases for my editing -- for example, with regard to "John Wesley Harding," the album has been available, simultaneously, in two different forms/lengths, and neither can fairly be said to be canonical. This is true of quite a few Dylan albums (in particular of Blonde on Blonde, which has been released in no fewer than eleven variant forms). Petsounds has removed information of alternate forms from at least one other entry (Highway 61 Revisited) without appropriate notice or explanation. The wikilinking he introduced is incorrect; The Basement Tapes (album) is rather different from the Basement Tape(s) session recordings, which have been unearthed and circulated by Dylan fans, and a separate article is badly needed; the differences are set out at length in, for example, Greil Marcus' book "The Old Weird America." I had thought that using a different form of the signifying phrase and not styling it as though it were an album should have been enough to signal to anyone reasonably familiar with Dylan's work that I did not intend a reference to the Columbia album. At the very least, an inquiry was warranted before making that (quite inappropriate) edit. With regard to the chart topping, it is not simply a qualitative dispute; I've questioned the sourcing, which goes only to an elaborate but anonymous website which provides no source information of its own.

But more important than the details of a particular edit is your completely unwarranted comment that my plural reference to Petsounds' practice of using misleading edit summaries is a "misstatement." There have been comments from at least two other recently on this point, including at least one admin (their specific views may not align with mine.) I point out other examples, larger and smaller, without difficulty -- note, for example, this edit to a Rolling Stones album page, where the user deleted a full set of track annotations without explanation, marking it as a minor edit conforming the spelling of the name "Keith Richard(s)." How many more examples would you like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Out_of_Our_Heads&diff=18358059&oldid=18302030

His practice is extensive; his response to related comments on the talk page of user Mel Etitis -- that a particular "minor" marking was just a slip -- cannot, I think, be viewed as an accurate, candid, or, yes, honest reply.

Think or say what you like about my style. But I believe you owe me an apology for jumping to the conclusion you made about "misstatements" and a lack of "scrupulous" accuracy and posted here. Monicasdude 21:17, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I have just seen your message to PetSounds. As I have just said there, it is a paragon of restrained complaint. This is the kind of civil interaction that I hope to see in your edit summaries, other discussion posts, and use of reversion. I wish that I could praise you in a way that I could be confident would not seem patronising. Now might be a good time for me to make it explicit that I have no doubt that your intention throughout is to help create the best possible encyclopedia. —Theo (Talk) 12:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I apologise without reservation for causing you distress. I misunderstood the point that you were making about the edit summaries. I understood you to be talking about the John Wesley Harding article and only about that article. I also recognise that I may have been prejudiced by what you see as "rough-edged style" and what I see as incivility. You are entirely correct to make me aware that I should not confuse abuse with inaccuracy. I will try to be cautious in my judgements and I hope that you, in turn, will try to be civil. —Theo (Talk) 22:55, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I hope that this edit reconciles the difference between you and Brian over track times. I have initiated discussion of the Basement Tape/Basement Tapes divide at John Wesley Harding (album)#Basement Tape(s). —Theo (Talk) 10:43, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't reconcile the differences; it misses the central point. It's inappropriate to designate a particular version of the album as canonical, since it remains available in different forms, with tracks of different lengths. The original version remains on sale -- Petsounds' comments otherwise are contradicted, once again, by the official Sony and bobdylan.com sites. Monicasdude 15:49, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I should have said that we should now seek to add the timings of the original version alongside those of the latest version with the existing note that other variations exist. I think it inappropriate to give no durations at all simply because there are several options. If you insist on only one, I can understand why the original release might be preferable but I feel that none at all is the least helpful option for the reader. Giving one of many, with a statement acknowledging it as such, is not (to my mind) designating it "canonical" (although one could argue that all official releases are canonical). Please expand the article if you have access to the original: my vinyl is inaccessably boxed. Petsounds' assertion about the deletion no longer survives in the article so I think we can let go of that. —Theo (Talk) 17:00, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

15 Big Ones

I'm not sure what's trying to happen with these edits, and the subsequent disagreements between you and Brian. But I don't think it's really safe for me to get involved. Thanks for the temptation, but I'll refuse to be sucked in eitherway. I'm going to say the same thing to him, and things will be fine.

Apologies for wussing out, but sometimes it's just gotta be done. I'll tell him the same thing. Bobo192|Edits

PetSounds 24 July

Thank you for the alert. I have counselled Brian to stop adding qualitative statements without gaining prior consensus. I imagine that your patience must be wearing pretty thin by now so I am presuming upon your goodwill to ask you to be particularly careful when discussing these changes. I fear that Brian is likely to feel a bit battered after days of continued criticism (even though we feel it to be just) and impatience does not sit well with bruises.—Theo (Talk) 18:24, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I have edited Younger Than Yesterday to show the kind of thing that I consider appropriate. I hope this helps. —Theo (Talk) 00:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Moving Dylan page forward

We are in agreement on the point that articles need to move forward. I may make some changes to the Dylan page, possibly some that use earlier language (I did like the older intro a bit better). If so, I'll do so in small increments, and provide explanations in the changelog and/or talk page. I don't have any particular agenda about that page, nor have I made more than small edits to it in the past.

I did however, notice that in the talk page, you showed a bit of unnecessary rancor towards some other editors. I think all those discussions were before I ever made even a minor edit to the Dylan page; so I'm uninvolved. And you're certainly not the only one (even on that specific page), who got a little less taciturn than desirable. But I would recommend that you try to avoid argumentative digressions during the page editing. Any given change made in the future should be about the specific content, and let's let the discussion focus just on the article content. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 03:25, 2005 August 11 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. I closed the nomination on WP:FARC because it had been there for over a month, whereas a decision to remove "featured article status" is meant to be made if there is a consensus at the end of 2 weeks (you may have noticed that there was a slight back-log in the page being maintained which I have tried to address). There were six votes to remove "featured" status and five to retain its status: clearly no consensus to do anything.

As I said in Misplaced Pages:Featured article removal candidates/Bob Dylan, Maveric149 added the {{featured}} template on 15 March 2004 as part of the move from "Brilliant Prose" to "Featured Articles"; having taken a look further back, Lord Emsworth added the text "This is a featured article." on 15 February 2004 - from his contributions, this was in the middle of an early restructuring of Misplaced Pages:Featured articles. Looking at the history of Misplaced Pages:Featured articles, Bob Dylan was added by User:Gareth Owen on 21 October 2003 with the comment "added two that have been on "candidates" for two weeks". It is before my time, but things were clearly very different back then - there were far fewer active Wikipedians: it seems that articles were promoted if there were no objections, unlike the present process which requires active support, and there were no specific criteria along the lines of Misplaced Pages:What is a featured article, just a requirement for something to be "brilliant prose". Here is a link to the discussion (such as it was) on WP:FAC. I hope this settles the matter. -- ALoan (Talk) 01:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that it was the last article promoted under the system that was in operation then; in any event, we are talking about an article that has been considered to be "featured" for almost 2 years, and there is now sufficient evidence for me that it passed the then-procedure legitimately. As far as I can see, no-one complained at the time. The acid test is surely whether it passes WP:FARC, which it has just done (most of the featured articles of that vintage that have come to WP:FARC have failed). Time to move on. -- ALoan (Talk) 19:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

DualDisc FAC

Hello. Thanks for your comments. Would you mind going to the discussion page and elaborating on what exactly you'd like to see the article have so I can address the objections? What you mentioned on the discussion page seemed quite vague. Thanks! --K1vsr (talk) 16:54, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

WP:FARC

Thanks for the message. First, let me apologise for using the word "gaming" - I didn't mean to imply that you were in some way being dishonest. What I meant was that you were complaining of something that seems out of process in a way that was itself definitely out of process, and it seemed to me that that was making a WP:POINT. The proper course, IMHO, would have been (would be) to bring your objections up on the article's talk page or FAC talk page, or to contact Raul654 (who does the WP:FAC promotions) directly on his talk page to check that he was happy that the objections to the first nomiantion had been addressed adequately.

It is a little unusual to renominate an article a day or two after it has failed FAC - the nominator is usually expected to wait a few weeks for the dust to settle - but the second nomination did include a link to the first nomination. The nominator should have confirmed whether or not the objections to the first nomination were addressed, and the old objectors should have said whether or not they were satisfied: the part that gives me the most pause is that (as far as I can see) none of the objectors to the first nomination voted on the second nomination.

I do look at WP:FAC regularly (at least once a day, on average), and the templates on Talk:History of South Carolina were updated relatively promptly (within a few hours, although not, as you say, by the nominator, but that happens all the time), so if you were watching the article and its talk page, it should not have been too difficult for you to have been aware of what was going on. If you are concerned about the actions of Toothpaste, I suggest you take it up with them directly.

Anyway, enough rules-lawyering. Time to write some articles, rather than worrying about whether they have followed procedure to the letter or not. -- ALoan (Talk) 19:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the above comments and have to say that it is disturbing what the user did to get the article through the FA process. Definately raise your concerns on the FA talk page b/c if the article was promoted before consensus was achieved that is an issue. I'd also raise the concerns on the article's talk page. State that the initial concerns raised in the first FA candicacy should be addressed and that if they are not, you will bring the article back up for removal in a month or two. If you do this and your objections are not addressed, when the article comes back up for removal I will vote to remove it.--Alabamaboy 20:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Abusive heading removed

You seem to be targetting Toothpaste. I have a feeling this is more some freaking grudge against History of South Carolina failing at the FARC. There is no freaking copyvio and you know it. -- A Link to the Past (talk) 02:30, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Oi, 'kay, sorry for the usage of freaking 'n stuff, but I have a hard time believing that after all of your interaction with the History articles, that putting up a copyvio that won't allow any editing of the article isn't an attempt to thwart the FAC process. -- A Link to the Past (talk) 02:39, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Read the copyvio procedures and stop posting personally abusive comments. Monicasdude 02:58, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Calling that a copyvio is ridiculous. Redwolf24 02:42, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Would you care to explain yourself? Two full sections of the page are essentially cut-and-pasted from a copyrighted source, without any direct acknowledgment of the source or appropriate fair use notice. Monicasdude 02:58, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

"Essentially cut and pasted"? She either c/ped it, or she didn't c/p it. I'll assume she didn't since *gasp* you can't even choose one side. -- A Link to the Past (talk) 03:06, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

No matter who is doing what, I fixed what you wanted to be fix. If your happy, remove the copyvio notice and I can post the new material at History of Arizona. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I understand you thought you saw "copying," but the taking of bald facts and crafting them into prose is not in and of itself plagarism. The order was similar, but that's because it's in chronological order. And I have no doubt that these statements are just the skeleton upon which Toothpaste was building. For that matter, you have no information that the website you referenced was the pure and original creator of the timeline. There are probably multiple references out there that sequence of events, which is strikes me as both narrow and straightforward as well as totally unpersonalized. Facts cannot be copyrighted, their presentation can. For an interesting and I think relevant perspective on this, may I recommend Malcolm Gladwell's "Something Borrowed" from The New Yorker. Outside of all the accusations and so on, I think that you struck a nerve be seeming to tactlessly attacking Toothpaste in public forum. If you had concerns, you could have approached her personally. To me it's clear she's an extremely dedicated and valuable and well-intentioned part of Misplaced Pages, and I think the rest of us would very much like to see her stay and fear that your attack might threaten or offend her, when she should be thanked for all her good work. A lot of the reaction to your copyvio is a simple matter of interpersonal politics. The cost of your dramatic act was a dramatic reaction. I'd personally recommend thinking more about the venues you use to deal with people and problems. And, last but not least, I maintain that the listing was nonsense, but I do apologize if I hurt your feelings or if this experience has been hard for you. Sincerely, jengod 18:03, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Please review the excerpts I've pointed out at the bottom of this page, in response to comments by another user. I noted a copyright violation not because the article presented the same "bald facts" in the same order, but because the article appropriated the exact text of the linked site, without any acknowledgment, changing the tense and, in one case, reversing the order of two items. User: Toothpaste did not comply with the applicable Wikiguideline concerning such quotations, which required her to identify the source of the material and place an appropriate notice either on the talk page or, in "hidden text," on the page itself. As for a "dramatic reaction" to my "dramatic act," the personal abuse did not begin with the copyvio notice. As for the quality of work, I think this is not a good article. And I will refer to the particular comment which led me to identify her plagiarism, the statement that "In 1992, Arizona became the first state to have voter approval of a paid Martin Luther King Jr. state holiday." This is a bizarre misstatement of history. I can understand why the State of Arizona papers over the events, but no one who in good faith writes about them should do so. Arizona was the 49th state to approve a King holiday. Its legislature refused to do so for years. In the mid-1980s, then-governor Bruce Babbitt created one by executive order, but that order was repealed by later governor Evan Meachum (whose impeachment should also have been discussed, as impeached governors are much rarer than female governors.) Despite a boycott campaign that ran the better part of a decade, including the loss of a scheduled Super Bowl, the state did not establish the holiday until the hotel/tourism industry forced the issue to a popular vote in 1992. To present this history, as the article does, with the implication that there is something laudable about its course of action, is to falsify history. It also shows exceptionally poor research. I think that featured articles should be well-researched. And I think that pointing out bad research is appropriate. I don't care about your "hurting my feelings" or making things "hard" for me. I think you behaved irresponsibly and let your opinions regarding user:Toothpaste override the criteria and guidelines that should have been applied. Monicasdude 19:17, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay, see, now we're getting somewhere! Post stuff like this on FAC objections or discussion pages and you'll have rousing applause. The best article edits that I've seen have been a consequence of objections like this posted on the talk page of the article in question. People can then review, react and REVISE in good time and with good faith. YES my feelings for Toothpaste are effecting my POV -- that's how humans work and I'm won't apologize for it, and from your perspective understanding that people work that way could be VERY useful. I know it seems irrational, but that knowledge can be combined into a rational perspective and make you all the more persuasive/powerful. ANYWAY, thanks for your insight, I don't think you're entirely wrong about this state history articles--I just think you're making your life so much harder than it needs to be by head-butting people. Don't get too hung on the adversarial part of the adversarial system that Misplaced Pages uses to refine articles--think about it from the system side of things, because the best thing we can do is work together. Worst case scenario: an elaborate but slightly undercooked article becomes featured, the attention directed to the article from its featured status brings other (slightly incensed) experts out the woodwork, they refine the article themselves or post objections and the article gets better. Next time you see a misstatement like the one described above, just fix it! You clearly have the capacity, and using your power for good (writing and editing!) rather than evil (head-butting and complaining) is, IMO, the way to go. Thanks again. jengod 19:47, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

3RR

You have undoubtedly broken the 3RR rule on August 19. I should not block you now as I have recently mentioned my distaste in your copyvio notice, but I'm leaving this here for another admin to see. Redwolf24 03:17, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

WP:AN/3RR#Monicasdude. I believe that's the link. Redwolf24 03:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Undoubtedly? As I did on the noticeboard 2 days ago, I am asking for a precedent that an edit dealing with multiple subjects, both inserting and deleting text, is considered a revert for purposes of the 3RR rule simply because it involves the deletion of some pre-existing text. As I pointed out there, it does not meet the definition of revert stated in the 3RR guideline. I believe you are letting your subjective opinion of me cloud your judgment on the applicable guidelines. And I am still awaiting your explanation of why you believe the insertion of two screens worth of copyrighted text, without an acknowledgment of the direct quotation, cannot fairly be viewed as a copyright violation. Monicasdude 16:54, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Because it is NOT a copy/paste job. The article did NOT contain anything taken from the website. All I see is some guy who hates these history articles, or is pissed at people who supported HoSC. You seem to hate the idea of HoA making FA status, and you hate the idea or HoSC not being removed. And, back on topic, you kept removing that line of text, more than three times. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:44, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

"The article did NOT contain anything taken from the website"?

Article: "Motorola built the first plant in Phoenix that marked the beginning of high tech industry in Arizona"

Website: "Motorola builds first plant in Phoenix marking the beginning of high tech industry in Arizona"

Article: "Arizona won a Supreme Court decision in contest with California over its share of the Colorado River"

Website: "Arizona wins Supreme Court decision in contest with California over share of Colorado River water"

Article: "Rose Mofford became the first female Arizonan governor in 1988 after the impeachment of Governor Evan Mecham."

Website: "1988 Impeachment of Governor Evan Mecham. Rose Mofford becomes Arizona’s first female governor."

Article: "Arizona became the first state to have voter approval of a paid Martin Luther King Jr. state holiday"

Website: "Arizona becomes first state to have voter approval of a paid Martin Luther King, Jr. Civil Rights Day state holiday"

You're not telling the truth, are you?

As for the 3RR rule, read the definition of revert contained in the guidelines. Monicasdude 18:00, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

You don't seem too confident that it was a copy/paste job. "Yeah, it was copy/pasted", and then you show me lines that WEREN'T copy/pasted? Are you high? And how does it matter if I'm telling the truth? I'm acting on good faith that she did not copyvio that information, not knowingly denying fact. Toothpaste said that she never used that website, and I'm inclined to believe her, since all you've done is try to sabatoge the two history articles, and this copyvio would certainly ruin the FAC for HoA. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:44, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Facts and figures cannot be copyrighted. The text is not copyright-infringing and never was. Rob Church 01:57, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Your comments on Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates...

seem to me a little less judicious than is reasonable or necessary. One need not impute a conspiracy of any sort, and I do not find compelling evidence of this after a preliminary investigation. I think some people who probably ought to know better are trying to encourage Toothpaste to contribute and are not providing adequate guidance as to the necessary quality of contribution for the ambitions they are encouraging (featured article). I am making an effort to say as much those I believe are responsible for this. I don't, however, think Toothpaste is being malicious here or is consciously gaming the system in the instances at hand thus far. I have expressed my basic reservation about the quality of contribution on the History of AZ article by noting a lack of specific references and a virtual absense of scholarly references in the level of references that have been given. Along the way, I do wonder whether anybody listens to Public Enemy anymore: "By the time I get to Arizona," anyone?

Although I've tended to agree with you on these matters and the question of civility which I have raised with A Link to the Past, I have to be plain and say that I think you need to exercise a great deal more caution in demonstrating your assumption of good faith. In all of these cases, there appears to be a simpler explanation of misguided behaviour (and I include here the problem I reckon stems from bad guidance), whatever the pernicious effects. I would strongly encourage you to distinguish the two when making objections. There is strong evidence that you know the subject matter on which you're speaking and, morever, have the wisdom to point out that neither you or another editor have adequate expertise on a subject, but I have the sense that if you continue to overstate some of the valid points you're raising (and which I would encourage you to continue to raise), you're going to be frustrated with either a growing credibility gap or what you view as a gap between the overstated parts of your accounts and the corrective actions taken.

I raise these issues above all because I really want you to remain part of the community and to be recognised for accomplishment at the level of ability you've demonstrated. Please take my criticisms in that spirit. Buffyg 21:02, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I continue to be perplexed by the idea that referring to someone as an eight year old is any bit civil. Perhaps you could explain it to me?

Or, perhaps, you could actually consider that the continued, intense confrontational behavior against History of Arizona, History of South Carolina and those who work on it or support it is not just coincidence. He has tried to remove History of South Carolina, failed, has tried to actually prevent the editing of History of Arizona with a copyvio (of which was not agreed upon by anyone), failed. It is as plain as day that he is trying to sabatoge the FAC process. So before you accuse me of being uncivil, make an attempt at understanding that calling somebody an eight year old when they didn't explain why the FARC of HoSC was bull is the exact opposite of civil - it's just insulting. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:20, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe that User:A Link to the Past is current on discussion of these matter, I don't see any need to reply here. I have, however, replied directly to Link via his talk page to catch him up. Suffice it to say that I don't agree with any of the characterisations he tries to advance in the above for reasons that have been given elsewhere. Buffyg 21:41, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Monicasdude, I think some of the confusion here may stem from the efforts of WP:FAD, the Featured Article Drive. I propose to follow their efforts for a while and see what quality of article they support, both in terms of where they focus their efforts as a project and how they interact with the rest of the voting process. It may be that they need some feedback on how they are preparing articles and how they present themselves in FAC voting. Let's pay attention and find out. Buffyg 02:50, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

You're making a major mountain out of a minor molehill. I am semi-aggressive towards one person, with two (taken back) aggressive comments, and you suggest the monitoring of WP:FAD. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:11, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the way you as an individual are behaving. My concern is with voting; in particular, it is appropriate that people from WP:FAD disclose their project participation when voting? Is it not possible that WP:FAD has some conflict of interest given that your project is to get articles featured? Is the feedback your giving recognising the efforts of participants or the quality of the article? I don't know yet, but I think attention needs to be paid. I don't know how indicative it is that project participants disparaged feedback that was legitimated by Raul, the admin of the FA process, but I do think this should give everyone pause, which should be used to reflect. Buffyg 10:37, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I've no idea whether there is something deeper here that needs investigating, but I believe Link is merely defending the project from criticism stemming from a lack of understanding. I would ask that if you have any comments to make about our process, our participants, etc. that you make them on our talk page; hiding them away could well be seen as being a bit conspiratorial. The founders of the project, as well as the other participants have only one goal in mind; to systematically bring every article in this encyclopedia up to scratch, in order to do our bit in making this the best information resource there is. Rob Church 13:00, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

If anything I've said or my choice of forum were taken as conspiratorial, that would be a serious mischaracterisation. Nothing has been hidden; what I said on this page I raised immediately thereafter on the FAC talk page. I do not see any basis for confusing personal reassurance with conspiracy. I expanded my remarks here only in direct response to a FAD participant. I made further comments directly to Raul in his capacity as FAC process minder (and you may note that there I noted that I needed to take up a number of issues directly with the FAD project, which I have done today in response to your comments on Raul's page — I am not, however, a project's worth of manpower, so I do find that some of my comments have been preempted or anticipated at some level). I have, in other words, spoken separately with every entity I see as a stakeholder, and I see in this no cause for concern about conspiracy. Indeed, it is precisely to avoid a misdiagnosis of conspiracy that I argue that FAD may need to be more transparent in its interactions with the FAC process (for lack of transparency there may be some negative consequences, however unintended). I think, however, that we can continue this discussion elsewhere. Buffyg 14:44, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I've fallen out of synch in this discussion, so I'll be brief and try to catch up in other places. I didn't mean to suggest anything conspiratorial, but instead a problem with "group dynamics." For whatever reasons, when problems are raised with FACs that come out of their group, FAD members appear prone to defend the article in ways which do not encourage its improvement. As an example of such a comment, on the Arizona FAC page, after objections calling for expansions of certain sections of the article, one defender asserted the article was already at "perfect" length. (I'm not sure who's who -- this particular one may not come from FAD -- but it's an almost perfect example of the kind of comment that troubles me.) Monicasdude 15:24, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about? What's troubling you is FAD, apparently, and you're using a possible non-FAD member as an example? - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:01, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, Link. Monicasdude has been giving good feedback; it would be appreciated if you would try to understand the substance of these comments rather than getting defensive before the stakes are clear. Speaking for myself, the sort of votes that trouble me are of this type. I'd point to feedback of the form "has worked really hard on this," where little of substance is said about the article itself. A comment of that sort can be found in the FAC in question, both from FAD members and non-members. The example is of a mode of criticsm; whether it comes from a FAD member is not the point when one can elsewhere find cases where FAD participants making comments of like sort. That a better example can be found from a non-member in no way invalidates the criticism offered. Buffyg 18:17, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

This is not "good feedback". He isn't basing any of it on the "worked really hard" comment, he's basing it on me saying he was acting trollish (as in, not pointing out ANY flaws in the article; just saying that it needs no discussion). Then, when instead of just asking why the FARC of HoSC was bull, he takes a comment Kiba made and said "Unless you're eight years old, yes, you do.", I said "Get the Hell over it". No one called him an eight year old when he didn't give any criticisms of HoA outside of it definitely not being FA quality. He seems intent on sabatoging the article; First, he gives one of those Strong Objects, then he tried to do an FARC on HoSC, and THEN he puts a copyvio on the page, of which no one, not even those who were more experienced with Misplaced Pages, agreed with. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:08, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

You have absolutely no basis for asserting that your "trolling much?" abuse is what set Monicasdude off, even if it seems to be another incident of provocative remarks calculated to derail criticism by disparagement. Again you mistate the basic facts by failing to do even a basic parsing of comments before replying with unjustifiable hostility. We've gone through this once before, and in that case I had the sense that you simly refuse to reconsider your perspective and placed more emphasis on self-justification than reconciliation. If you'd like to discuss this further, I'm open to mediation. Otherwise I see no reason to engage in yet another futile exchange. Buffyg 20:41, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

In this entire conversation, not a single human being has EVER justified why calling someone an eight year old is civil. Not a single person, nothing at all. And yet again, my claim that the strong object and 'quick rejection' suggestion (which would be the equiavalent of a speedy delete for the FAC) without even offering a single fix that the article could use to MAKE FA status is trolling (of which I have apologized for, which seems to hold less merit than defending calling someone an eight year old). Being apologetic of my hostility is, in itself, NOT hostile. Apologizing = mediation, so don't talk to me about that subject, 'kay? Thanks, bai. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:28, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

You have not apologized for the "troll" comment; in fact you demanded that it stay on the relevant talk page. You could have removed it and noted your apology there. If you are not going to discuss matters accurately, please stay off my talk page. Monicasdude 21:40, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

You haven't apologized for the eight year old comment to anyone, either. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:47, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

You keep skipping over the part where I explained to you that Kiba wasn't called an eight year old. If I didn't think the continuing argument juvenile, I'd argue that we should open an RfC. Shall we go for a third opinion in an effort to close this? Buffyg 22:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

There IS no third opinion needed! I think that he was acting in a small trolling nature, I think he legitimately wasn't interested in having the article improved, but I have apologized for expressing my opinion on that. Would it kill him to take back a comment that could be perceived as rude? Humorous jokes can also sometimes be perceived as insulting as well, you know. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:46, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism in progress: Bob Dylan

Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Misplaced Pages without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. If you only meant to make a test edit, please use your sandbox for that. Thank you.

Please note that this charming unsigned message comes from User: Lulu_of_the_ Lotus-Eaters, a wikithug with peculiar biases regarding religion who insists that the Bob Dylan page reflect his and only his ideas about religious references in Dylan lyrics. His complaint was summarily deleted as inappropriate; showing his characteristic respect for and willingness to comply with Wikiguidelines, he put it back up. Monicasdude 22:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

History of South Carolina

Hello. History of South Carolina is on Featured Article Candidates for a third time due to recent controversy. I'm guessing that you'd be interested in voting at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/History of South Carolina due to your FARC nomination. Toothpaste 19:38, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Appointment to the Order of Canada

I am rewriting the whole article. I am now at Member, but I will be very close on finishing. If you have time, could you come back to the FAC page and see if there is anything else I could do to fix the article to your satisfaction. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 20:23, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Mediation of Bob Dylan

I would like to get this dispute resolved amicably and fairly, however disturbing you may find my views to be. Misplaced Pages has a limited number of administrators who are willing to deal with mediation like this, and frankly I doubt that getting another one involved will improve your situation, or the general problem with the great disruption this dispute is causing to Bob Dylan. If you refuse mediation then I will have no recourse but to suggest that User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters proceed to a request for comment.

Please let me know what you have decided. --Ryan Delaney 20:48, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I am willing to accept mediation. However, I have asked that you explain one specific comment you made on user:Lulu's talk page before I accept this particular offer. Monicasdude 20:53, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest that discussion of that remark should be deferred until the mediation process unless you think it materially indicative that Ryan has some sort of conflict of interest or predisposition on this matter. I thin the most important thing here is that mediation should begin promptly, as I believe it is the most effective option to resolve this dispute. Buffyg 22:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Dylan sources

I do not recall which pages I flagged for sourcing. However, I am sure that you know what would benefit from source citation and you seem to know your stuff. —Theo (Talk) 23:16, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Sheeesh... Request.

Sheeesh, I never knew this page existed. Mdude apparently deleted his userpage upon registering and I assumed he could not therefore have a Talk page. Mdude: I've finally taken the trouble to look into your history a little and, as expected, found plenty of evidence that your truculence and love-for-reversions has disturbed many other Wikipedians, leading to disruption of the wiki process. I suspect that you were a Misplaced Pages editor under one or more now-retired names, and that the histories of those names will bring out further relevancies. I now ask you to list here any former names of yours so that I can collect any associated evidence for the current RfC against you. This is a legitimate request (though you will not like it) and if you refuse to provide the name(s) I will ask an Administrator to do an IP check and to employ any other methods by which ex-names can be linked to your current name. If these efforts reveal former names I will include your attempted obfuscation (and its creating extra work for me, the Admin and whoever does the actual IP check and other checking) as another bullet point in "Evidence of disputed behavior". JDG 09:28, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

You are living in a fantasy world. Stop defacing my talk page, and stop posting posting personal abuse. Monicasdude 11:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

A fantasy world? I believe you have edited under an earlier name. Either you have or you haven't. Which is it?JDG 14:32, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

It is now 15:55 UTC. I'll give it to 19:00 UTC. If no answer from you by then I will consider you non-responsive and proceed with my request for an IP check. Note: to avoid this becoming a charge on your RfC, you must answer "yes" or "no" to the question: "Did you edit under other names?". If you fail to give any answer you will be knowingly causing extra work for others. So, if "Monicasdude" is your only and first Wikpedia username, please answer "no" to the question. JDG 15:55, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

As I believe I've said each time you've raised this paranoid delusion, aside from a few anon IP edits well over a year earlier, I had not edited Misplaced Pages before registering as Monicasdude. If we're going to talk about sockpuppeting, multiple identities, etc., why don't we talk about your posting comments to UseNet as "Steve H." and then citing your own posts in the Dylan article (that laundry list of "perceived consensus" best songs, or most famous, or whatever it was? Monicasdude 17:11, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

No you've never said this has been your only username, to me at least. Thank you for finally giving a straight answer... And what on earth are you up to with your investigations of usernames I have used on Usenet? What drives this kind of obsession?... Do you believe my Usenet name must be the same as my Misplaced Pages name? What exactly are you saying? JDG 17:29, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I didn't investigate your UseNet names. In response to a discussion on the talk page, I tracked down the source of a list included to the article and sourced to UseNet. But thanks for confirming that you'd been citing yourself as a source and didn't acknowledge it. Monicasdude 17:35, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

You really are one of the most interesting characters I've encountered online. Such straight-ahead level-headed writing in the service of fevered, wobbly assumptions... The list you refer to (and which you blew away from the article, thereby diminishing the article) was indeed put together by me. I also sometimes post to rec.music.dylan. It was my "perceived consensus", that is, in my review of opinions by Usenet contributors, I perceived that the listed songs were considered by them to be "the best". It was not my POV (your false reason for deleting the list), it was the POV of the collective Usenetters, which POV, embodying the combined opinions of scores of knowledgeable Dylan aficionados, I found and still find to be of relevance for the Misplaced Pages Dylan article... This episode is quite typical. You, with your strange blend of logic and illogic, blow away article content on the basis of well-researched, but poorly-formed (i.e. essentially incorrect) conclusions on the sources of said content. Hopefully the folks taking part in the RfC will proceed with enough care to understand the subtle ways in which you go about revamping Misplaced Pages content, often detrimentally and through out-of-control use of reversions. I've got to hand it to you, you're a slick one. JDG 17:55, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

In other words, it was original research, and therefore not allowed. Stop defacing my talk page. Monicasdude 19:50, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Stop accusing me of defacement when all I am doing is answering your insulting charges about "citing myself as a source", engaging in "paranoid delusions", etc., etc., . Unless you enjoy these dramatics (and I fear you do) you should take my observations to heart and change the way you deal with other Wikipedians. Your rudeness and heavy-handed editing has turned what should be a pleasurable activity into a travail for way too many people, and the disputes that are inevitably kicked up in the path of bullies of your type are a huge waste of time and effort. For your own sake, learn to play nice and all this wasteful tit-fot-tat will become a thing of the past. If you despise me too much to take anything I say seriously, then listen to people like Theo who you seem to get along with and who tell you essentially the same thing about your attitude.

About "original research"-- this is a new WP "policy" I feel is certain to be overturned. It's very misguided, but that's another topic for another day. It wasn't in effect when I added the list and I'm quite sure it won't be in effect a short ways down the road, at which time I will restore the list. JDG 20:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I would humbly submit that this back and forth is not going to resolve the matter. I would urge you all to back off the RfC process and take the informal mediation offer from Ryan. I think no clarification from any party is going to provide a single controlling principle that's going to resolve this matter, so the best way is to step back and tell your stories to a third party as opposed to arguing them here. Speaking from experience, I can tell you that an argument as harsh as this will not be resolved by user page exchanges and, speaking from conviction, I can say that starting an RfC and already speaking of having people banned is going to result in a lot of unnecessary and counterproductive upset. I think it's time for everyone to hold back on editing for a while and cool off. If you all share the same interests and intend to stay involved in wikipedia, more important than the current state of the article is your ability to come to consensus on edits without third-party intervention. Buffyg 21:08, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Buffy, I appreciate your appeal for peace, but you have not experienced the long months of frustration caused by Mdude's anti-collaboration habits. A number of us have pleaded with this user to work with us in a measured way, but he shows absolutely no sign of even comprehending why others are so upset with him. His seizure of the Dylan article took place in early June. Here in late August it is now clear that only mediation/arbitration has a chance to get through to him, as he completely and insultingly dismisses all appeals from individual editors. Thank you for trying, though. JDG 22:05, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I have also been through trials like these. If you want your frustration to end, the most effective way is to agree on a solution. You say he does not comprehend, but you are not acting to achieve comprehension. Comprehension cannot be imposed, yet that is the implication of so many of your remarks (e.g. "I just think that if we're going to bother with this at all we should maximize our chances for a good result. Mdude hasn't committed the sorts of offenses that will lead to even a short-term user ban. The most we can hope for is something like a temporary ban on his use of the revert power on the Dylan article. That would allow us enough time to get the article back into shape, to produce a version that a properly chastised Mdude could then help us improve going forward." — you'll excuse me if I don't see this as a calculation to maximise mutual benefit). You've been talking on a talk page, but we all know how that can be. I'm as guilty of this as the next person: when the wrong buttons have already been pushed a few times and the faith isn't there, talk pages can produce a lot more back and forth justifications than progress toward agreement. You've not managed to have a sidebar yet, and you're not going to have one without someone actively trying to cool things down. Let someone do that before taking steps that will have an inflammatory effect and make it that much harder to have the best possible collaboration in the future. Someone else can find the diplomatic words to express frustrations and material concerns and set aside the overheated claims. Find the good faith to do this. Buffyg 22:32, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Lulu of the Lotus Eaters

Thank you for that bit of info! It's very valuable evidence against him - and very damning too. Thank you so much! David Cannon 21:33, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Please don't edit my words. Either delete my entry entirely or leave it intact. JDG 15:19, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

If you continue to post gratuitous personal attacks on third parties here, they will continue to be refactored in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Remove_personal_attacks. Monicasdude 10:57, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

The paranoia here is irksome on all sides. Why on earth would you do put a "note to self" on another user's talk page, stating that you will follow "trace these guys' doings" because you detect the "startup of apparent 'tag team'." Haven't you been posting to no small number of user pages for purposes of forming precisely the kind of "tag team" you identify here? My point is: the behaviour under your control is not to post to someone else's pages something along the lines of "big brother is watching you". This puts matters under your control. That you end up with an "expletive deleted" replacement to your post is a reasonable consequence of an unreasonable editorial remark better suited to internal monologue on someone else's user page. If you're having problems establishing good faith with a user, you cannot expect a remark like this to engender any kind of solution. Buffyg 16:09, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Monicasdude, if you feel there's a personal attack going on, you need to defuse rather than escalate the situation. "Stay cool when the editing gets hot" applies the more so to editing on user talk pages as anywhere else. The first thing to do is to state what you think is objectionable and ask for a clarification or retraction. The last resort is to strike, but you should not try to gloss the remarks beyond degree zero (as in: "personal attack deleted"). Buffyg 16:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Once again, external resemblances confound accurate judgment. LotLE and I have notified potentially interested parties in the disputes with Mdude, so they are aware of what's happening and can choose to cast votes or otherwise express opinions. We have not directed their opinions in any way. From what I can tell after a cursory look at what is brewing between Mdude and "David Cannon", it is a beast of an entirely different stripe. They are now stalking LotLE, reverting him just because he's LotLE. Once again, false moral equivalence is drawn between Mdude and co. and JDG and co.. Sorry, Buffy, but you have chosen a truly disruptive editor to defend and you just can't expect people to take his aggressions lying down. I very much doubt you would do so if you were in LotLE's or my place. Perhaps you think you would utilize more mainstream avenues to respond to these aggressions were you in our shoes. Perhaps you would. But we tried informal mediation, tried the RfC (which is plainly just a toothless gabfest)-- so now we're left with wrestling these guys on their own turf. If they don't like it they should quit their stalkings and reversions-for-the-sake-of-reversion. JDG 16:52, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

As I've said elsewhere, my practical experience is that the dispute resolution process is fairly heavily overloaded. People need to adhere to the core principles of wikipedia and try to work out differences amongst themselves. It's not that I've entirely given up on these avenues, but it only took one dance with the dispute resolution process to tell me that it's the last resort of last resort. (This is exactly why I made the suggestions I did to the "be bold" talk page.) Above all, this means maintaining self control, and I have to say that I've seen you slipping in that area, offering explanations of behaviour that are, frankly, paranoid to support unreasonably uncharitable characterisations and resisting self-examination where it is an integral requirement for solving the problem. Please don't confuse my distress at this with an unqualified commitment to justify Monicasdude. I've had episodes of this sort myself, and I've generally found that an explanation that allows a measure of good faith to be preserved can (and must) be found, whether by further investigation or reasonable requests for clarification. Buffyg 17:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Please see

new comments at User_talk:Sambostock#Why_do_you_support_Monicasdude.3F. JDG 06:13, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Also see this page. Man they sure could use your help over there, Mdude. JDG 02:00, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Dylan outside the US

Hello - I noticed you removed the sentence I added to the Bob Dylan article about his trip to London in December 1962 – January 1963 to take part in The Madhouse on Castle Street being his first trip outside of the United States. I make no claims at all to being a Dylan expert, but the information I had came from the BBC's own page on Castle Street, here. Do you have a source for the claim there being incorrect? If so, I'll correct that mention of it being his first trip which occurs on the Castle Street page here at Misplaced Pages. Angmering 19:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I'll change the statement on the Castle Street page accordingly. Sorry I was unclear above, also – I was trying to say that the trip lasted from December to January, not that I was unsure which of the two months it took place in. Anyway, thanks for the correction! Angmering 19:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Mark Felt Redux

In June you voted on the featured article candidacy of W. Mark Felt, which failed. It has now been resubmitted. In the event you would like to vote on the new candidacy, it is at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/W. Mark Felt. PedanticallySpeaking 18:59, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Infobox cleanups

Hey, Album infobox two is admittedly not as widely used but I do not believe reverting from it is appropriate. However, album infobox 2 is more accepted than the old style code. In fact I created Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject Albums/Needs infobox conversion to this ends. You should not be reverting to the old style if you revert from infobox 2 but at least to Template:Album infobox style. Is my change acceptable now? Pleae don't revert to the old style, but at least to the new one. Sound good? gren グレン 21:26, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I will agree on this. I understand that you reverted In A Glass House based on fair-use concerns. There has been no consensus on the issue of this template, however, and it's not your job to go reverting articles based on your opinion, at least at this point. There are hundreds, if not thousands of articles that use this template at this point. Once it has been decided to delete/keep the template, then we'll see. For the moment I have reverted it back to Infobox 2. --Comics 21:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe you understood, yet my comments are quite clear. Let me re-state what I have already stated to be my position on the topic. It is inappropriate for you to change which template is used in an article when you know very well that there is a discussion going on involving this specific template and that consensus has so far not been reached. You have changed many infoboxes on the premise that they violate fair use, but this has not been determined. It is not up to you alone to dictate the policies of Misplaced Pages. Until the dispute has been resolved, I ask that you do not change any further infoboxes. You mention my position is unclear because I also reverted the infobox. I was simply undoing what I consider to have been unilateral vandalism on your part. I trust that you can understand the reasoning behind this and if you continue to do so, I will pressure some admins to look into the situation further. Misplaced Pages is all about community and consensus, and if you don't abide by this philosophy, then you should not participate here. --Comics 23:47, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I understand your position perfectly. You're hypocritical. You believe that it's OK for people who agree with your position on infoboxes, which is clearly a minority position, to change the style in one direction, but not OK for those who take the majority position to make changes in the other direction. Don't use "consensus" as an excuse to claim that nobody can make changes you disagree with without your approval. Monicasdude 14:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm getting increasingly tired of you making claims which are false and attempting to hurt my credibility. As far as the lack of consensus goes, please see here and here. Note the references to the lack of "consensus". The vote had 19 for delete and 19 for keep. There were also several comments which were claiming this is a grey area. Before you start throwing around terms like "minority position", at least get your facts straights, because you are doing no more than flaming. As far as your criticism of me being hypocritical, I have explained time and time again why it is wrong for you to go around reverting these infoboxes. Let me outline this as clearly as possible: 1) You base the reversions on the grounds that they violate fair use, as I have illustrated and is quite clear, there was no consensus on this. You are therefore making these changes out of your own desires and without proper justification. 2) Please note that the Infobox 2 template is no longer up for deletion, which technically means there is no problem in using it. The reason why I don't object to people converting articles over the template is because, yes, I think it's an improvement over the original infobox (though this is a matter of opinion, most people will not have a problem with this). There is in fact no reason why this template shouldn't be used in regards to current consensus and Misplaced Pages policy. Until then, and until it is clear Infobox 2 will be deleted, I ask once again that you do not go around reverting based on "fair use". Regarding what you claim as "changes disagree with", I wouldn't talk too quickly as you're in hot water because you act as you own the Bob Dylan and related articles, there is an RfC and soon a mediation regarding your unilateral actions, and also you have continued to censor your talk page because some people don't agree with you. This might be a good time for you to look over Wikiquette. --Comics 17:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Your opinions aren't Misplaced Pages policy. In the discussions regarding which albumbox should be used, the preference is clearly for albumbox 1. The applicable template for album cover use indicates that the only generally accepted "fair use" of album covers is for illustration of the album articles themselves. As for hypocrisy, your position is that, in the absence of a consensus, it is acceptable for those who prefer the disputed box to replace the undisputed one, but not vice versa. That is a textbook display of the quality. Monicasdude 18:11, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

A question

Why is it that almost all your edits are contested by a large number of users, and generally agreed with by a much smaller number of users? feel free to reply on my talk page or here. SECProto 02:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

BGC

I suggest that you start an RfC on User:BGC (unless there is already one I am unaware of) because I don't see this conflict ending without some involvement from the rest of WP. Gamaliel 19:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I'll follow your guidance on this, although I have doubts about the productivity of it unless there's serious involvement by editors outside the immediate set of those involved in the ongoing popular music style/content disputes. Monicasdude 22:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

An RfC is probably warranted, though (as you say) I'm not clear what good it will do. They generally have one of two results: the subject of the RfC is almost universally condemned, and carries on behaving in exactly the same way, or is widely supported — and neither result would be helpful to you. If you do open one, though, I'll certainly add whatever evidence and support I can. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Mel on this one. Seeing the RfC's on both of you have done nothing, it certainly won't change my view on the infobox style. Only a resolution on that ISSUE on the appropriate page will do that. Therefore we need a consensus on that particular debate since it's a dead heat (19 votes to 19). Starting an RfC on me will only confirm what many editors (Theo, JDG, Lotus, Comics, myself, etc...) have long suspected: that you're merely targeting ME and that - I can assure you - will make you look worse, because that (and the failed attempts to 3RR me and report me for vandalism) will likely be added to your own RfC as an example of Wiki abuse and I know many will support that view. It's your noose. And you'll be feeling it far more than I ever will. BGC 11:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Boston, Massachusetts - response

I did some copyediting, but I need exact information of what is lacking in the history section. However, I can't expand it further since the section is a summary of a larger sub-article on Boston's history. Plus I am trying to keep the article under 40 kB. Pentawing 22:10, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

• I was wondering if you will respond to my inquiries on the article. Thanks. Pentawing 04:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I believe that it would be better for you to speak to me directly concerning the history section. As I had mentioned before, I am working under an article size constraint and some of your comments are unclear for me to proceed (I have no idea exactly what you find wrong with the section. Is it wording, incorrect or missing information, and where?) If you don't point out the problems exactly, I can only do minor corrections as I see fit (given that others I've talked to believe that there is nothing wrong with the section). Pentawing 01:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

• I am currently waiting for your reply to my inquiries. Please contact me through my talk page. Thanks. Pentawing 20:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Doctor Who missing episodes

I've tried to respond as best I can to your objections on the featured article candidates page for this article, and I was wondering if you had the time to go back and have a look and see if your objections still stand? Angmering 11:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Album infobox 2

I just wanted to thank you for your recent comment at the ongoing discussion about infobox 2. It helped clarify things for me, and I appreciate your objectivity and fairness. --Qirex 04:18, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

User:BGC has complained to me that in addition to reverting the template and other minor things associated with the template (which is a legitimate dispute) you are also reverting other additions to the article and is calling this "vandalism". If these changes are just getting caught in the crossfire, could you make an effort not to revert non-template changes? If you have a legitimate reason for undoing these changes, could you make it a little more clearer in your edit summaries or on the talk page? BGC is personalizing this dispute and is claiming it is "out of power control" and so forth. It would be helpful, both to show this isn't a personal dispute and to prevent this war from escalating, if you could at least leave a clear note or two about the non-template changes. Thank you. Gamaliel 01:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

User BGC's statements are not accurate. I've already left a longer comment on your talk page. In most cases his "additions" are simply reversions to old, NPOV-violating texts that were the subject of editing disputes months ago, and I believe each of my edit summaries on those pages properly refers to NPOV issues. I have made the effort to keep changes in place -- while my initial edit summaries are marked as reverts as recommended by guidelines, they are not simple reverts: in virtually all cases I either inserted the albumbox 1 template into the most recent page or picked up the undisputed changes and inserted them into an older page. Note the history for ], where I corrected my initial failure to pick up the band template from BGC's edit. His claims are simply not made in good faith. Monicasdude 02:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

This happened last time, too, as I recall. Unfortunately I, with the possible exception of User:Mel Etitis, am probably the worst possible admin to do anything about it, since I am so clearly not neutral on the subject. User:Gamaliel has taken on some leadership on this issue, and is probably a better resource. Jkelly 23:52, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Beatles for Sale

Thanks for your comments on the article's FAC. Together, Jgm and I have worked to improve the article and cite more sources. Please have another look and tell us what you think. Johnleemk | Talk 16:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

re: WP:BOLD

I think the fact that you're the only editor who keeps reverting the page back shows that there's not much of a consensus for your position. If you want a discussion on this, go to the talk page and start one. I don't see anything there relating to this. - ulayiti (talk) 16:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Please take another look at the talk page, particularly under the section headed "Poll" (#9). At that point, a similar requirement was proposed for Featured Articles only. It was rejected by a 2-1 margin. Also take a look at sections 4-5 on the talk page. This has been gooing on for most of the year, and JDG keeps pushing variations on the same theme without ever getting consensus. As another editor commented in one of the earlier rounds of this dispute, "If you want to change a guideline that's been unchanged for a year, you need to get a consensus on the talk page first." And the newest version wasn't even mentioned on the talk page. And how about responding to JDG's thoroughly inappropriate, policy-violating practice of including gratuitous personal attacfks in edit summaries? Monicasdude 17:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry for reverting your edits - I should have looked into the matter more thoroughly - but frankly, with you as the only editor reverting the change and numerous editors backing it up, it seemed to me like a legit change. I can see now that it isn't in fact backed by consensus, but it hasn't been rejected either. Explaining why you reverted it in edit summaries or on the talk page would have helped this. - ulayiti (talk) 16:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

No problem; as Superm401's comments last night demonstrated, I hadn't made my argument as clear as I should have for editors who weren't involved in the previous conflicts. Monicasdude 16:52, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Tumbling Dice.

I've responded to the NPOV concern about Tumbling Dice. The section has almost quintupled in length with three new reviews being quoted. I'm No Parking and I approved this message 22:18, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

WP:3RR and User:JDG

I asked for another admin to look into the matter, and left a note at User talk:JDG. What it looks like to me is a content dispute and edit war between the two of you. I don't see the consensus that you mentioned. Talk:Bob Dylan, in fact, hasn't been edited since the 15th. That said, some kind of mediation may be necessary here. User talk:JDG seems to be entirely composed of references to you. I notice that is not the case here. To the extent that this is personal, you may need to pursue some stage of the dispute resolution process. If this has already been started, and is stuck somewhere, I trust that you'll forgive me for telling you something you already know. Thanks. Jkelly 02:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

That was quite the response. Your statements "it's difficult for an uninvolved editor to keep the dispute in context without considerable effort" and "The situation really requires outside intervention" both seem to be very accurate, while the former may explain why the latter has yet to happen. Beyond the Bob Dylan content dispute, there seems to be further problems that it is not obvious to me have been addressed at all. Can you give me a list of those administrators/mediators that have involved themselves? As I wrote here, I'm concerned about accidentally escalating a dispute. I would, of course, like to help make Misplaced Pages a better environment for everyone concerned, but it is not clear to me how to do that other than by encouraging use of the WP:DR system. I would like to at least ask after third parties to see if they have any more practical ideas. Jkelly 19:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Blues

I have tried to address your objections -- as far as I feel able to do so. Please don't hesitate to provide further objections. Vb 11:50, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The west wing FAC

Sorry about that, I thought those issues were resolved. Won't do it again! -Scm83x 00:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

User talk:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters

Hi. User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters asked me to request that you allow that user to delete your comment on his talk page. I understand that you don't agree with his description of events, but the value of getting your disagreement posted on that user's talk page is probably heavily outweighed by the downsides of annoying him and edit-warring over it. Remember that your response is in the history, if you really need to refer to it at some point. I'd be unhappy if my nosing into this whole thing has the effect of stirring up bad feelings that were otherwise in the past. Thanks for considering it. Jkelly 21:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's appropriate for user:Lulu to post an unprovoked personal attack on me on his talk page and summarily remove my response. He's repeatedly been cautioned about comments like those in the past, and refuses to conform to the "no personal attacks" policy. And I have to say, whatever "heat" is involved, that the dishonesty of his comments on the Dylan talk page today demonstrate his lack of good faith. Monicasdude 22:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I know next to nothing about Bob Dylan, and less about Lowell George. To be honest, it looks like that article, which is an WP:FA, only has five actual citations in the text, followed by an enormous list of further reading / external links. I'd be completely at sea trying to verify anything in there! I, of course, don't want to see the content disagreement escalate, but it is not clear to me what the best way of avoiding that is. Jkelly 22:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Vote change?

I have substancially reduced your opposition on the Dinosaur FAC. What is left you will need to explain more thoroughly as I do not know what is un encyclopedic about the section you mentioned & how there is a sharp change in tone in the Jurrasic park section. Please ellaborate... And, if you want to, you might also be inclined to change your vote, to a neutral at least? It would reduce my stress greatly. Thanks, Spawn Man 03:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I have left a reply under yours. I will scratch out what I see fit in order to keep trck of things. I completed your tasks, if you aren't happy, ellaborate. Please ellaborate or I'll take this to Jimbo himself. This is no laughing matter. Spawn Man 03:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Those comments are really inappropriate, and if I didn't have the following comments already written I wouldn't be inclined to waste any more of my time on this. Frankly, if the objections to the article candidacy are too numerous/complicated to keep track of, it's a pretty good sign that the article isn't even near FA quality.

I'm sorry, but you've missed my point on each of the objections you struck out, and I've restored them. I don't know why the Gondwanaland discussion is in the intro, since it's not otherwise mentioned in the article. My point was that the fossil evidence is insufficient, on its own, to prove the existence of a supercontinent. By the same argument, the existence of 50,000-year-old human fossils on all continents except Antarctica proves the existence of a supercontinent in the relatively recent past.

The section on "Bringing Dinosaurs Back To Life" is unencyclopedic because it has no real factual basis; it's a discussion of an idea from a novel. I don't think even Crichton would tell you it had any sort of solid scientific basis; it only has to sound convincing enough to carry a reader through the novel.

The comments about shift in tone are virtually self-explanatory; most of the text is written in impersonal, relatively formal prose, but some sections drop into informal, sometimes even colloquial language that appear to present an individual point of view or opinion.

And dinosaurs were fixtures in (mostly American) popular culture long before Jurassic Park; that section of the article is clearly the weakest, and the least sourced.

I've revised the article to eliminate the humans-contemporary-with-dinosaurs problem. Monicasdude 03:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

How were my comments inappropriate? Not at all! No! And are you calling me for not being able to keep track of the dinosaur FAC?!? I find that extremely inappropriate!!!!

I have removed the shifts in tone. I have consulted people on the Gondwanaland thingy & they said if you have a written, cited source, then the information can be used in the article! So although YOU may not believe it is sufficient evidence, YOU are not the be all & end all of critics! I have a cited source, so there... THE SAME GOES FOR THE "BRING DINOSAURS BACK TO LIFE" SECTION. IF YOU ACTUALLY CHECKED THE FOOTNOTE, YOU WOULD FIND THE INFORMATION IS FROM A THESIS/PAPER THINGY! NOT SOME FAR FETCHED NOVEL! I have removed the Jurrasic park stuff up thingy also.

Don't let me hating you a lot get in the way of voting on the article. Think of what's best for the article. It would be different if you were voting on Adminship, but you're voting on FAC. Spawn Man 23:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't post hate speech on my page again. I don't care how old you are; that behavior is contemptible. Monicasdude 00:11, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

User:SpawnMan

While he is entirely in the wrong with regard to his behavior towards you, I don't feel that harsh words will be as productive as gentle guidance. He is acting, in my opinion, in good faith; the occasional lapse in civility, while bad, are something which he can learn to avoid without sterner measures being necessary (in my opinion, anyway).

All of which does not excuse his remarks here, of course; and I wish to apologize for such offense as he has given. —Kirill Lokshin 01:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore)

Hi Monicasdude,

Several replies have been posted to address your objections. Please have a look at them on the above FAC, and reconsider your decision.

- Regards, Mailer Diablo 11:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I would think some effort should be made in gaining concensus in Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Mass Rapid Transit (Singapore) before attempting to enforce your POV in the article and engaging in revert warring. If your concerns are indeed noteworthy, why, then, do no one appear to show similar objections?--Huaiwei 15:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

That's a bad faith comment. Really. Nobody's expressed agreement with your position, either. One of the clearest signs I've seen of bad faith editing is reverting edits that one disagrees with without any discussion of the substance and citing a made-up requirement that prior consensus is required for any changes. Especially by one who is making other changes without prior discussion and consensus. Monicasdude 15:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It cuts both ways. I am left wondering why you use words like "your position", as thou I am reacting based on my personal disagreements with you alone. Do you have difficulty admitting to the fact that I am not alone? The very "sign of bad faith editing" you talk about was well demonstrated by your adventures in the above page. Why do you try to do "minimal copyediting" when it is clear in the talkpage no one has agreed with your concerns and intended edits? So "someone" is making other changes without prior discussion and consensus? Which other changes you are refering to, may I enquire?--Huaiwei 16:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Please comply with Misplaced Pages civility policies when posting to my talk page. And please be accurate: I was not the only, or even the first, editor, for example, who thought the article needed copyediting.Monicasdude 16:28, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to continue to remind others about wikipolicies while you freely flout them yourself if you arent serious about assuming good faith. Meanwhile, I beg clarifications over you demands on "greater accuracy", for since when did I question the general need for copyedition?--Huaiwei 16:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Because you violated the 3RR rule, I posted a notice on the appropriate board, and further discussion of your behavior should be placed in that context. Continuing to post personally directed comments about me is fruitless, and further posts of that sort will be refactored inaccordance with the relevant guideline. Monicasdude 16:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

So you want to play the 3RR game now. I said before you are in no position to comment on the behavior of others. Lets see how it turns out.--Huaiwei 16:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• 1. Don't remove in-line citations . And even if you want to, please reorganise the footnotes accordingly. 2. Please refer to the FAC and answer the replies to your objection as well. - Mailer Diablo 15:50, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• • My apology for missing the footnote. Inline citations can (and should!) be removed when the accompanying text is deleted. As for the rest, I've already responded on the talk page, and I don't see any reason to repeat my responses to Huaiwei's abusive comments. These are, for the most part, simple verifiability issues that shouldn't provoke this level of acrimony, and what seems to underlie them -- particularly in light of Huaiwei's comments, and your implicit support of them, is a failure to understand Misplaced Pages's "ownership of articles" policy. The point of FAC discussions is to obtain views that aren't reflected in the consensus of editors who have already worked on the article; to summarily reject those views for not reflecting that consensus is so plainly contrary to the applicable Misplaced Pages policies that it should require no discussion. Monicasdude 16:28, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• Now, now, , I haven't even touched the article for the last 10 hours. My only request is for you to review my response to your objections, and see whether it meets your criteria, and to further discuss if it does not. Then make the changes. Our eventual goal is to improve the article to make it to Featured Article status, yeah? - Mailer Diablo 16:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Please cite a guideline or policy which requires prior discussion before editing a candidate article. If you look at other FAC discussions, you will see that it is standard practice to make such changes in an attempt to meet objections, and that those who support candidacies often complain that objectors are not active enough in making changes. Monicasdude 16:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

So you condider it ethical to use FACs to enforce your personal POVs in articles, since contributors have not much leeway and must "bend to your demands" before they get accepted? Whats worse, you engage in revert warring if it fails to go your way in an attempt to further shoot down the article's FAC nomination? Do you have an explaination for this behavior of yours?--Huaiwei 16:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)