Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs

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Faithful and discreet slave

I find no reason that the topic about the Faithful and discreet slave should have its own article, since the information in that article is rather limited and it is about one single teaching that really could be discussed together with all the other docrines in the bigger article. What the faithful slave is and how it is important for the doctrine can fully be explained in that article. I suggest the merging of those articles. Summer Song (talk) 13:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Strong oppose. The article has much more detail on the doctrine and its development than can be accommodated in the Beliefs and practices article. LTSally (talk) 21:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I take notice of your comment, but there was in fact more than one article before that discussed various doctrines that now has been merged. Since this article is rather short and its information could be dealt with that way, why shoudn't we merge? At least, that is my personal view. Summer Song (talk) 17:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:MERGE discusses the rationale for merging an article and lists four reasons why an article should be merged within another. None of those apply to Faithful and discreet slave. This subject rates just one sentence within Beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses. If you added the content of the FDS article, including the current WT teaching, its origin and criticism, it would instantly qualify as an article to be split. LTSally (talk) 21:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. — Mikhailov Kusserow (talk) 15:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

What about adapting the article to merge Faithful and discreet slave with Parable of the wise steward, which could also do with expansion with any other mainstream interpretations that may exist.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:45, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The connection is obvious, but I don't see it as an easy fit. The parable article contains information of general interest on a Bible subject; the "faithful and discreet slave class" is a teaching unique to Jehovah's Witnesses that effectively transforms ~~a parable~~ one figure of a parable into an organizational statum. Because the FDS article has significantly more information, it's also likely to swamp the Bible article. The articles can certainly cross-link, but I don't like the idea of a merge. LTSally (talk) 06:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that in its current form, it would certainly swamp the parable article. However, the current form does seem to give undue weight to a belief of a minor religion, with not a great deal of third party sources. The existing parable article should also be expanded to include other interpretations that may exist.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

A better solution would be to rename the FDS article as Faithful and discreet slave class and allow it to remain focused on the JW doctrine. That teaching, after all, is one of the central JW teachings about the basis of its authority and the claims of the channel of communication between God and mankind. A link would remain to the Parable of the wise steward article. LTSally (talk) 07:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Oppose.
Anyway, aside from New World, does any other translation of Matt 24:45 read "faithful and discreet slave"?
If not (I believe not), there is no reason to append "class" to the name to distinguish this from a teaching wholly unrelated to Jehovah's Witnesses. Incidentally, why not move this talk section to that article?
--AuthorityTam (talk) 22:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Obsolete and Innacurate Article Provokes Vandalism

A recent act of vandalism on this article identified the reason why this article experiences vandalism: "This article is incorrect in many areas and does not represent the history or beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses."

As much effort as was put into hunting down information that was obsolete before Misplaced Pages even existed, to contradict current information about the subject of this article - and to maintain the edit war required to keep it there - if a small fraction of this effort were put instead into providing current information, there would not be this edit war between obsoletionists and members of the public who have little concept how to edit Misplaced Pages, but who know enough about the subject to recognize misinformation when they see it. Downstrike (talk) 18:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Articles associated with Jehovah's Witnesses have always attracted vandalism. The statement you removed was probably outdated, though it was certainly revealing of the attitudes of Watch Tower Society of just a few decades ago. But "oudated" statements are certainly not the sole reason why idiots feel the need to mark their territory on this website. It is a common occurrence for users, both anonymous and account holders, to remove indisputable facts about Witnesses from the article simply because they find them uncomfortable. LTSally (talk) 19:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

What I replaced was most likely a historical fact, and may have a proper place in a historical section. Downstrike (talk) 20:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't attempt to justify editors' vandalism of the article with claims that the article is inaccurate. What some editors claim is inaccurate is often simply objectionable to them because they feel it puts their religion in a bad light. If an editor believes information is untrue, they should discuss the specific points.--Jeffro77 (talk) 22:10, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Who was justifying anything? The "editing" that brought this particular obsolete information to our attention was very sloppy. There appeared to be odd bits of punctuation and reference tag left dangling afterward.

I'm trying to encourage the inclusion of up-to-date information, and the replacement of obsolete information in the article. If we don't want people doing such sloppy edits, we should have correct information in the first place.

However, since you bring up the subject of justification, when we add or restore information, the burden of evidence for the information we add or restore is on us. On the other hand, from http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence :

Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living persons or organizations, and do not move it to the talk page.

"Puts their religion in a bad light" seems to mean the same thing as "might damage the reputation of living persons or organizations", and information based upon sources that were obsolete before Misplaced Pages even existed seems to be "poorly sourced material". Downstrike (talk) 07:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Without indicating exactly what was supposedly "obsolete before Misplaced Pages even existed", this discussion is meaningless. Obsolete information is neither a cause nor a justification for vandalism; the two things are entirely independent. Perhaps someone would care to indicate what they consider "obsolete" or "innacurate ".--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no justification for destructive editing. Why do you keep bringing that up? However, there is no need to provoke it, either.

Meanwhile, obsolete information doesn't provoke anything. However, inaccurate information that damages the reputation of people or organizations does.

Beginning with: 20:59, March 29, 2010 76.105.149.144 (talk) (87,201 bytes) (→Evangelism) (undo) (Tag: references removed) until now, most if not all editing done in the Evangelism section of this article have involved the deletion, restoration, replacement, supplementing, or tweaking of statements about pioneering, that were originally partly sourced from a 1955 Watchtower and 1973 Our Kingdom Ministry, and partly unsourced. Ironically, only the unsourced information, (the explanation that pioneering means 70 hours of evangelizing), turned out to be correct when checked against reasonably current sources.

Interspersed between destructive editing from 76.105.149.144 and my attempts to replace the obsolete information, at least 2 established editors restored obsolete information that has been criticized as a guilt trip.

BTW, thank you for your efforts to improve it! Downstrike (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Theocratic warfare

BlackCab aka LTSally has recently insisted on terms like "theocracy" in articles related Jehovah's Witnesses.
Yesterday, he added an entirely new section to this article here entitled "Theocratic warfare".
I reverted his addition, commenting, "Not current / useful if you have to dig for refs in 1950s and 60s."
BlackCab reinstated, commenting, "The teaching was published in 1954 and still appears in the Insight book, 1988."
Here is BlackCab's new section, under the section heading "Theocratic warfare".
Watch Tower Society publications have claimed that Witnesses are engaged in a spiritual, theocratic warfare against false teachings and wicked spirit forces. They are told that to protect the interests of God's cause, it is proper to hide the truth from his "enemies" by being evasive or withholding truthful or incriminating information from those not entitled by law to know. The Watchtower told Witnesses: "It is proper to cover over our arrangements for the work that God commands us to do. If the wolfish foes draw wrong conclusions from our maneuvers to outwit them, no harm has been done to them by the harmless sheep, innocent in their motives as doves."
The topic was inserted by an editor with a history of railing against Jehovah's Witnesses. By taking forty and fifty year old publications out of context, his new section implies that Witnesses are sneaky, less-than-truthful schemers. That's WP:UNDUE.
Of course, in context the gist of the references was that if a Nazi or KGB agent holds a gun to the head of a Witness and asks where the other Witnesses are, the Witness can with a clear conscience say "I'm alone ". Jehovah's Witness publications last applied the name "theocratic warfare" to modern Christians in this context in the 1960s, at the height of the Cold War when there were tens of thousands of Witnesses behind the Iron Curtain. These days? The current Watch Tower Publications Index has zero entries for "Theocratic warfare". The 1930-1985 Index has one entry, and that is "(See Warfare )". Like most Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses are concerned with "spiritual warfare", a term which encompasses the ongoing "fight" between the forces of good and evil. While a potential interaction between a Christian and a "satanic" Nazi or KGB agent might be one minute fraction of a much larger topic, you'd never guess that from the way it is framed in this recent added section. BlackCab aka LTSally makes no attempt to discuss the matter comprehensively, but instead he isolates one tiny fraction of the topic. How did BlackCab decide which fraction to include? Readers will likely draw their own conclusions. It's not worth it to add balancing context to this article, since the Christian belief/practice is hardly unique to JWs and is more properly discussed at Spiritual warfare. It's totally WP:UNDUE here, and should be removed.
--AuthorityTam (talk) 18:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

As the entry I added noted, it is a strategy referred to in WT publications as Theocratic, or spiritual warfare. The Watch Tower Society still holds to the teaching, as shown in its inclusion under "Lie" in the Insight into the Scriptures volumes, published in 1988, which repeats the wording used through the 1950s, '60s and '70s. Judging by reference to it in a television documentary here, a court case here and discussion of the concept of the Witnesses' use of the tactic on the internet at such sites as , , , , , , and , the teaching is notable. AuthorityTam's argument that inclusion of the practice breaches neutrality policies is misplaced: it's a short entry, properly sourced, among a long loist of JW beliefs and practices. BlackCab (talk) 20:44, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

It's unsurprising if a few disgruntled former Witnesses (including, ahem, BlackCab aka LTSally) seek to highlight this matter and use whatever "media" is at their disposal to further their agenda. A blog or a homemade video can pretend that "hiding the truth" is an important part of the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. Misplaced Pages cannot, because it violates WP:UNDUE and other guidelines intended to discourage intellectually dishonest propaganda. --AuthorityTam (talk) 21:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The article contains a long list of beliefs and practices peculiar to this religion. Why do you think the inclusion of a doctrine, expressed repeatedly in WT publications and discussed on television documentaries and a court case, is undue weight? I'm not suggesting it's an important belief, nor does the wording suggest there is anything wrong with the belief. But it certainly is distinctive and notable. For that reason it is worth including. BlackCab (talk) 21:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Does the editor seriously suggest that no other Christian religions teach "spiritual warfare"?

Does the editor seriously suggest that no other Christian religion teaches that a Christian can "hide the truth" from persecutors?

When the editor chose to introduce a new section on "Theocratic warfare" at a central article of Jehovah's Witnesses, the editor did not choose to discuss the topic fully and fairly. Instead, the editor chose to cherry-picked a handful of quotes to make it seem as though "hiding the truth" is a notable or unique part of Witness theology, and the only aspect of "spiritual warfare" worth considering. It is not. A section like this is WP:UNDUE. If the editor is serious about insisting otherwise, it probably makes sense to solicit outside opinion. --AuthorityTam (talk) 21:42, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Request for comment: I'd appreciate some outside comment on my addition of a section, "Theocratic warfare", under the "Practices" section of this article. User:AuthorityTam has twice deleted it, initially claiming "Not current/useful if you have to dig for refs in 1950s and 60s." (One of the cited sources that repeats the information from the 1950s, '60s and '70s was in fact from 1988, in a textbok still in curent use by Jehovah's Witnesses). He has subsequently claimed the addition of the material would place undue weight on the teaching and suggested this would constitute "intellectually dishonest propaganda."

As noted above, I contend the doctrine is:

An unusual teaching that is distinctive to this religion and therefore of interest;
Of proven notability, on the basis of reference to it in an Australian TV documentary and a US court case (in which it was alleged JW leaders lied to protect the reputation of the religion) and hundreds of websites (links provided above);
Clearly and unambigiously enunciated in Watch Tower Society publications since 1954, one of which was an article headed "Use theocratic war strategy", encouraging Witnesses to hide the truth when it suits God's "cause";
A current teaching, as indicated by its inclusion under the heading "Lie" in the 1988 JW textbook Insight on the Scriptures, which employs almost identical wording to articles published between 1954 and ~~1988~~ 1971; and
Written in an editorially neutral tone with neither a complimentary or pejorative tone.

I believe the practice is a valuable inclusion in a list of JW beliefs. AuthorityTam believes I am trying to cause mischief. Some comments would be appreciated. BlackCab (talk) 11:25, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Editors should be aware that the supposed citation from 1988 never mentioned "theocratic warfare". The 1988 reference work is nearly 3,000 pages, and here is all that it has to say about the topic as presented by the editor above:

Insight on the Scriptures, vol 2, page 245, "While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it. Jesus Christ counseled: “Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open.” (Mt 7:6) That is why Jesus on certain occasions refrained from giving full information or direct answers to certain questions when doing so could have brought unnecessary harm. (Mt 15:1-6; 21:23-27; Joh 7:3-10) Evidently the course of Abraham, Isaac, Rahab, and Elisha in misdirecting or in withholding full facts from nonworshipers of Jehovah must be viewed in the same light.—Ge 12:10-19; chap 20; 26:1-10; Jos 2:1-6; Jas 2:25; 2Ki 6:11-23."

Of course a thorough 3,000 page Bible reference work would address those verses! A Bible reader might wonder and research why Jesus and other "good" Bible characters did something that might to some Bible readers have seemed questionable (that is, hide the truth). An index listing of "Scriptures explained" points to this article for each of the cited Scriptures. Discussing the actions of Bible characters is the context in which the matter was discussed in 1988 (twenty-two years ago), not discussing "warfare"! To the point about undue, even then, that quoted 1988 paragraph is second-to-last within an eight-paragraph article discussing the Bible's condemnation of lying.

Is "theocratic warfare" a major part of the unique beliefs and practices of JWs? No, JW beliefs and practices on this matter actually line up pretty closely with other Christians (that is, a Christian can be evasive toward Nazi persecutors and the like).

Do JWs often discuss "theocratic warfare"? No, they last used the term this way in the 1960s.

Does it fairly represent the topic of "spiritual warfare" or "theocratic warfare" to write only about how it pertains to interactions with human antagonists? No, that is a relatively small part of a much larger topic. The 1988 reference uses the term "spiritual warfare" seven times in nearly 3,000 pages, and always to discuss using the "holy spirit" and Bible to win faith and minds to "true worship".

Does the paragraph introduced by BlackCab aka LTSally fairly discuss Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs about truthfulness? No, that editor (who describes himself as an experienced former Witness) has chosen to cherrypick, isolate, and group together a handful of refs to make it seem as though "hiding the truth" is a common thing for and unique to adherents of that particular faith.

That's WP:UNDUE, and the ostensible section title is WP:COATRACK. --AuthorityTam (talk) 12:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Hypothetical question: If a Jehovah's Witness acted to remove details of "theocratic war strategies" from an encyclopedia (ie, withhold information) because he believed it was in the best interests of his religion that the public not know of the doctrine, would that be a demonstration of that strategy in action? BlackCab (talk) 13:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Although the specific words, theocratic warfare are not always used (though the specific wording is certainly not foreign to present-day JWs), the concept in the context of BlackCab's presentation has been re-stated in JW literature as recently as 2009: "Does being truthful with others mean that we must disclose every detail to whoever asks us a question? ... Jehovah’s people need to be on guard against apostates and other wicked men who use trickery or cunning for selfish purposes." (Watchtower 15 June 2009) Also: "The faithful witness does not commit perjury when testifying. His testimony is not tainted with lies. However, this does not mean that he is under obligation to give full information to those who may want to bring harm to Jehovah’s people in some way." (Watchtower 15 November 2004); "Of course, being truthful does not mean that we are obligated to divulge all information to anyone who asks it of us. ... For example, individuals with wicked intent may have no right to know certain things." (Awake!, 8 February 2000) However, AuthorityTam is correct that dishonesty is not the only aspect of JWs' view of 'theocratic' or 'spiritual' warfare (much of which is similar to views held by other churches), and a proper consideration of the subject would not only present information about being deceptive.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:55, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

As an aside, the opening statement in this section, "BlackCab aka LTSally has recently insisted on terms like "theocracy" in articles related Jehovah's Witnesses." seems to be a dig at BlackCab, however JWs, both in conversation and in their literature, very frequently use terms such as theocracy and theocratic, which is not at all something BlackCab has invented on a whim.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:59, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The word theocratic or theocracy seems to be non-encyclopedic if you ask me. There are more neutral terms that can be used to describe the central kind of phenomenon being described here. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 13:11, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The term is not mine. It was the phrase used in the Watchtower articles and repeated in the TV documentary and court case. BlackCab (talk) 13:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The term "theocratic" is widely used within the JWs, and even included on the message boards in front of their local halls here. The term, or something remarkably similar to it, is however used in Masters of Deception by F. W. Thomas, which is described as an "excellent" source in Jerry Bergman's 1999 bibliography, Jehovah's Witnesses: a comprehensive and selectively annotated bibliography. However, although that book (which I myself count as being far less than "excellent") does use such a term, I think a more neutral statement would be to say that the JWs have accepted, in certain circumstances, situational ethics. The specific incident the book mentions, about a woman changing clothes and probably lying (depending on whether she "sees" herself), is to my eyes a very minor matter. The author also discusses an individual JW "publisher" flatly lying to the author himself about how he, the author, had been kicked out of the JWs for embezzlement (I think), but that is the specific action of a specific publisher, and I don't think it makes sense to say it necessarily has any broader implication than that. John Carter (talk) 21:51, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a great deal of similarity with situational ethics, to which an Awake article (August 1973) has referred with some disdain. Theocratic warfare is about protecting the interests of God's kingdom, which the Watch Tower Society believes is synonymous with the interests, expansion and magazine distribution work of Jehovah's Witnesses. BlackCab (talk) 07:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The reason for mentioning it is that, in context, the term seems to be used in connection with, at least in some instances, being less than observant of what some might call basic Christian beliefs regarding honesty, etc. At least, in the book I cited, it is used in that context. So, in effect, if it is used to justify "all's fair in love and war," or a related concept, that seems to me to be a fairly clear endorsement of at least some situational ethics, at least as it applies to preaching/witnessing. The Witnesses seem to see themselves as being in a "war" of sorts, and it is generally accepted that, in "wars", sometimes even the "good guys" act in a way which they might not approve of otherwise, for expediency, etc. I could see perhaps adding something to the effect that they accept some situational ethics thought when it directly relates to the preaching/witnessing, but would want to see it limited to that if it is included. John Carter (talk) 16:07, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Tolerating evasiveness is not distinct

No. Jehovah's Witnesses reject "situational ethics" by name. Witnesses also condemn the so-called "Christian principle of double effect".

This actually seems a remarkably relevant line of reasoning...

How many religious denomination articles at Misplaced Pages discuss that denomination's interpretation of lying and evasiveness? I'd guess zero, this being the first. Whether their articles mention it or not, since other Christian religions tolerate evasiveness (and they do, especially in the face of outright persecution), for what ostensibly encyclopedic purpose is this discussed at all in an article about Jehovah's Witnesses?

* Do Witnesses have a more strict or a less strict interpretation of lying than other Christians? Perhaps most importantly: does this new section give an accurate impression of Witness views on lying? In fact, Witnesses do not tolerate outright lying at all (even in the face of persecution), yet the new section never says that. Indeed, JWs consider lying a 'serious sin' for which a Witness could be disfellowshipped, yet the new section never mentions that.
I'd guess that's more strict than most Christian denominations, yet the new section never mentions that, and gives the opposite impression.

* Do Witnesses have a more strict or a less strict tolerance for evasiveness than other Christians? While certainly discouraged, a Witness would admittedly never receive judicial discipline merely for being evasive, whether it was with his neighbor, his business associates, or Nazi persecutors. Even then, however, a Witness could lose congregation privileges for incidents which merely have the appearance of wrong! (See JW discipline#Limited "privileges of service".)
I'd guess that's more strict than most Christian denominations, yet the new section never mentions that, and gives the opposite impression.

Again, if all or the overwhelming majority of Christian religions perhaps condemn lying and certainly tolerate evasiveness, why is this notable only for Jehovah's Witnesses? Again, why must only this religion's article explicitly comment on the matter of evasiveness to the questions of a persecutor?

So, per WP:UNDUE the new section by BlackCab aka LTSally fails based on the ease with which any determined editor could cherrypick sources stating that nearly or literally every religion tolerates evasiveness in the face of persecution.
--AuthorityTam (talk) 21:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Part of the reason for inclusion, I think, was the fact that the chapter on "lying" (whatever you want to call it) was mentioned in Bergman's bibliography book as being one of the few key points of the book mentioned, which he indicated was "excellent", although I really have to wonder about the level of quality required for such an assessment from him, based on my own view of the book. Such inclusion does indicate notability of the subject. I don't know if it is sufficient for inclusion, just indicating what seems to me a possible reason. John Carter (talk) 21:16, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

AuthorityTam adopts the OTHERSTUFF argument: if other articles don't discuss the ethics of lying in a religious context, neither should this one. It is true that JW publications condemnd lying. That would be a standard Christian ethic, similar to a condemnation of adultery, murder and theft and that wouldn't be notable. I'd guess that other religions don't have a teaching called Theocratic Warfare in which their publications have advocated deceptiveness and evasiveness when the interests of their religion's activities seem threatened. Witnesses do and that's notable. BlackCab (talk) 22:04, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

For what it might be worth, my own opinion regarding this might be to simply keep a comparatively short one or two sentence summary of the material here, and place the bulk of the relevant content, possibly including the instance when the author said a street "publisher" lied to the author about the author's own background (not knowing that was who he was), in the Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses article. John Carter (talk) 19:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not presenting the Theocratic Warfare belief as a criticism. It is a notable belief and nothing more. BlackCab (talk) 23:21, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Only a subset of what they call 'Theocratic Warfare' is presented, and it does come across as a criticism. (Aside from that, I've seen no evidence that "Jehovah's Witnesses reject "situational ethics" by name".)--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

And, of course, some of the outside sources which discuss it definitely do so in "critical" fashion. While it is notable as a point of their beliefs, and can be mentioned as such, it probably is a bit more notable as being a point about which the JWs are criticized. That was my basic thinking for the proposal. John Carter (talk) 20:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

No, the doctrine is not notable. Neither the thread nor the article has thusfar seen any useful "outside sources" which call this a notable doctrine. What seems obvious to most is that what is currently discussed at Beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses#Theocratic warfare is nearly identical to the position held by just about every Christian faith. So who is it that seeks to frame and push discussion of this supposed "Theocratic Warfare"? Almost all discussion of so-called "Theocratic Warfare" is among former and anti-JWs, rather than by reputable works. Try it, perform a Google search. I haven't located a single chapter or subheading in any reputable work which discusses this position as though it were unique to JWs, except perhaps in that JWs were and are persecuted to a unique extent (and the topic is intertwined with persecution). Incidentally, since 1950 the publications of Jehovah's Witnesses have never treated "theocratic warfare" as a capitalized term, and have only used the term about 60 times in 60 years; by contrast, the less loaded but synonymous term "spiritual warfare" has been used about 240 times. Why did BlackCab aka LTSally choose the former term which JW publications rarely use? Why do editors consistently capitalize "theocratic warfare"? Is the term "theocratic warfare" among those in the back-of-the-book indexes of reputable works on JWs? The answers are telling.
--AuthorityTam (talk) 18:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Coatrack

Let's be honest: despite its title, does the new section actually discuss "theocratic warfare" aka "spiritual warfare"? No, its originating editor (BlackCab aka LTSally) cherrypicked only a tiny fraction of quotes from among a very large topic to focus on what he wanted to discuss, utilizing a framework upon which to drape the idea that JWs are prevaricative. Discussing one tiny part of a larger topic and labeling it with the larger topic's name is also WP:UNDUE but its undeniably WP:COATRACK. --AuthorityTam (talk) 21:51, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The section is included under the "practices" section of the article. The relevant "practices" of the Theocratic Warfare strategy, are therefore noted. Those are the practices that have attracted comment from outside observers. BlackCab (talk) 23:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The editor here clarifies his claimed position: that "the practice" is the notable thing. Ironically, as "practices" go, circumstances involving persecutors are far less likely than those involving criminals, such as those intent on rape and assault. Regarding notable "practices", Witnesses insist that an adherent physically resist rape and that an adherent not seek to kill his assailant. Those "practices" are both less theoretical and more notable (in that they are several orders of magnitude more likely for a typical Witness, and actually do differ from other Christians). To the informed person, it is obvious that this section is not about discussing a genuinely notable practice but about having an excuse to pretend that Witnesses are somehow untrustworthy and dishonest. The section titled "Theocratic warfare" is distracting and undue in this article. --AuthorityTam (talk) 18:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Watchtower's teaching known as "theocratic war strategy" (TWS) is a doctrine that makes a disinction between lying and making an intentionally misleading/false statement that is not a lie. So, for example, the doctrine expresses that the ancient Rahab who intentionally mislead Jericho men by making false statements was not lying for reasons the doctrine offers. This doctrine is alive and well in Watchtower teaching. It is refered to in several ways and not just as "theocratic war strategy."--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 19:19, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Use of scriptures

I am new to wiki,but while I am reading this article I feel the article does not contain information for a research.It just states there beliefs rather than why? Also in the quality scale rated as B were its defined as "Readers are not left wanting, although the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher".

So my point is if a theology student want to make a serious understanding of their beliefs won't it be good to just mention the scriptures which Jehovah's witnesses use to make their stand? For example it is given that they base there beliefs on bible;So if they believe Jehovah is their God to worship,then won't it be good to add an informative statement like "They use these scriptures( just include the scripture location) to endorse or interpret this belief". won't it be more informative to the reader?

Or Am I wrong? Is there any rule in wiki that not to mention any scriptures? I suggest to include some scriptures they use to interpret their beliefs to make the article informative..jeho (talk) 15:55, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

A number of scriptural references already exist in the article to make clear where some of those beliefs are drawn from. I don't see any statements of belief that appear to need scriptures ... but if you disagree, please indicate which beliefs you refer to. BlackCab (talk)

User:Jehonathan, it is sometimes appropriate to explain that a particular JW believe is based on a particular scripture, particularly if there is a specific phrase in a scripture being discussed. However, scriptures should not simply be stated in the fashion employed in The Watchtower, as if to imply that a particular scripture can be interpreted only the JW way or that applying a particular scripture a certain way is uncontested. Please see WP:JW#Use of scriptures.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:38, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes I do accept with your point that not to mention scriptures in brackets as in watchtower.But I have added a summary at last,which is informative and the user could easily get an idea what they believe and the scriptures they use to interpret.It is vital because many beliefs mentioned in the summary are not included inside the article.And a general reader won't see scriptures but for a serious reader it is surely helpful.It does not violate any wiki policies because it is informative.regards..jeho (talk) 09:23, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Using the entire table the way you have done could be a copyright violation. Some of the wording may need to be cleaned up for a more encyclopedic style and to reduce the jargonish feel. Also not entirely convinced that a long table containing points on many different subjects that are not clearly delineated is entirely helpful as a summary.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Also note that the article should not attempt to teach (that is convince) readers that JW beliefs are true (or false) by using the Bible as an 'appeal to authority', as is clearly the purpose in the document the table is lifted from.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for comments,may be we need to change some words to make it an encyclopedic style.I don't think it have a copyright problem once we change some vocabulary,further most of those scriptures are also present in many of their books and known to the adherents of JW. The article does not teach or convince because in header it says "Scriptures on which their interpretation is based". Its just gives a clear idea of most of their belief's and if we try to explain each one in separate headings it would be too big. So this table is easy to understand and helps the common readers to have a basic understanding of most teachings, whereas an advanced reader could have a detailed view on their interpretations..regards..jeho (talk) 11:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

The table isn't exactly brief. Some adaptation of this could work, possibly broken into smaller subject-based tables in relevant subsections. I'll think about possible alternative presentation. Assessing its suitability will also require input from other editors, and maybe a third opinion from an uninvolved party.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Much of the content of the table repeats material already in the body of the article. Scriptural citations are unnecessary for many statements of belief and pointless in others. How do Galatians 3:13 and Acts 5:30 support a view that Jesus died on a stake when those scriptures refer to a tree? How does Matthew 15:3 support the view that the Bible is more reliable than tradition? How does Psalms 72:1-4 support a view that the "Kingdom will bring ideal living conditions to earth"? I'm not here to debate the truth or logic of those statements, but taking up such a huge section of the article with spurious and tenuous citations is excessive. Brief summaries of their core beliefs, as already present in the article, are sufficient. BlackCab (talk) 12:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it is not necessary to include everything that is in the table (which is verbatim from a JW webpage). It might be suitable to summarise key beliefs with the more commonly used scriptures for the most significant doctrinal views in some of the relevant sections; also, for points that are not distinctive of JWs, it is almost certainly unnecessary to provide specific scriptures. I'm assuming the specific questions above are rhetorical. The table in its current format seems to seek to 'prove' that JWs base their beliefs on the Bible, and that should not be the intent of the article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

About keeping scriptures:It is vital to include scriptures because most people see JW with bible and arguing with people.And hence people are curious to know what scriptures they use and (may be they could use them for debate). As I mentioned the topic is about the beliefs of JW's and not some other religion .Hence,As it is mentioned they reject many usual Christianity teaching and base on bible,it would useful atleast to give info regarding the scriptures they use to make their beliefs..jeho (talk) 13:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that it is "vital" to include scriptures, and certainly not for all of the entries in the table. (On what do you base your ideas about "most people"?) Many of the entries are typical Christian beliefs, and do not require special elaboration from scripture in this article. It is POV to say that JWs "reject many usual Christianity teaching and base on bible", because other Christian religions also have their own interpretations of the Bible consistent with their own beliefs. I'm not aware that articles about other religions have a similar table, though such a tabulation of selected scriptural interpretations would be equally possible.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

So you say some beliefs are common to other Christians so u are going to trim it right?Then please mention at the heading I given below about which are the beliefs u feel common and then trim?.Don't compare other religion because JW are always put in debate. Other religion theologists are in debate about there own beliefs itself.But you may note that although other religious articles don't use much scriptures they have explained the evolution of their traditional theology.So they may can't make a table with their general beliefs with scriptures,but they may be able to make a table with the time-line of traditional doctrine evolution.But as JW's not believe in tradition more points are to be included from scriptures as in the table.Because of this only JW even though they form a low population their articles are always highly important.Why cant people here add some criticisms to other religions sex abuse cases or detestable things they do in a detailed way or have some genuine interest in criticisms of other religions.Because people are uncomfortable here with JW.Be positive..jeho (talk) 14:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

About link to JW home page:I agree with the argument that the reference given will make people to visit to JW website.So I had removed the link,And added a reference to that magazine name(Who are JW?What they beleive?) citing the page..jeho (talk) 13:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not aware that anyone complained that "the reference given will make people to visit to JW website", though if you had that impression yourself, then you're probably right.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I remember there was an argument tasting like that so only I mentioned..jeho (talk) 15:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

About breaking the table:Most readers don't want to read all the history and content given above,rather they are satisfied by have an understanding about their beliefs line by line as given in summary.If we remove some points because it is mentioned earlier or split it would be inconvenient to the reader as there would be no option for a quick view about all their beliefs in an easyway...jeho (talk) 13:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree somewhat that it is convenient to have a concise summary of beliefs, but disagree that it's necessary to include the entire list merely because that was what exists on the JW website it's copied from (verbatim). I see no reason to include entries that are not distinctive of JWs. I will trim and probably redistribute the list when I have more time.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Another problem with this particular table from the JW source is that it only includes scriptures about topics they want to address, rather than a neutral selection of distinctive beliefs. Additionally, readers wanting something concise probably aren't going to look up the cited scriptures, and just stating a scripture reference can imply support where no real explicit support exists; e.g. the scriptures about blood say absolutely nothing about 'taking blood into the veins', etc, yet they are offered as 'support'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

what things u going to trim plz notify in the heading I given just below with the reasons? If it is same as other all mainstream Christians I am ok .U said distinctive,I feel almost all are distinctive and required.If u find some beleifs are same please mention there and then change after talks are over.Also include details about your finding in neutral selection. About blood we shall change the heading to witnesses do not take blood,instead of as it is given now.So it makes ok for both side. About the argument that people will believe it is right when given in scriptures...we can make links to bible gateway and people have their own options and as JW are always under debate they at least know there basic beleifs with the scriptures JW's use..jeho (talk) 14:33, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

About the debate: The scriptures put at debate (about death in cross or stake) for that we could add the specific translation they use (NW) in bracket. Also its JW's own interpretation and readers are aware of that..And about psalms (good living conditions) it is JW's own interpretation as in the heading. So nothing we can say about the scriptures they use as it is JW's own interpretation.Readers are aware have there own opinions.But our duty is to mention their beliefs and scriptures they use to interpret without arguing to any side and hence we keep neutrality'..jeho (talk) 13:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Falling back on things being "their interpretation" sounds like a bit of a slippery slope toward justifying preachiness.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

No slopping its neutral..people have there own options but it is important to at least mention their most beleifs..jeho (talk) 14:26, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

neutral selection of non distinctive beliefs from table

If you intend to trim some beliefs from the summary table because you feel that the belief is not distinctive for JW when compared to mainstream Christians or it is not neutral then please mention the belief here and then make decision after the talk is over.Because I feel almost all the beliefs given there are distinctive when compared to mainstream Christians and are hence required.Also please note that Jehovah's witnesses are not included in mainstream Christianity category.jeho (talk) 14:52, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Breaking of the table

I have argued with reasons above to keep the table without splitting in to other places.I feel the table given at last makes it easy for the common reader who don't want much details to get most of JW beliefs easily without much reading.Also it contains many distinctive teaching of JW which are not mentioned in the article.Finally, a summary(means recap or shorter version of whole concept) is always written at the end of the article. But if someone intend to split please notify here first with the reasons and then make decision after having the talk..jeho (talk) 15:10, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the table for now, as it may be a copyright violation. It can still be discussed, however in its current form, it is neither appropriate, nor a summary of the article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Use of scriptures in the table

please keep in mind the scriptures given in the table are interpreted by JW only as given in the table heading. It is used to give information to the advanced reader about the scriptures JW use to interpret their own beliefs. And it does not mean to coerce the reader as the topic is dedicated to JW beliefs. Also the reader is aware the interpretations are JW's own and not accepted generally .What ever JW believe we have included it in a neutral way.And hence I ask u all not to make a religious debate with the scripture. But for other reasons please inform here and then make decision once the talk is over.jeho (talk) 15:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

The table is excessively long and detailed for an encyclopedia article and repeats material already in the article. Some of the scriptures offer only dubious support for the statements. It is effectively hijacking the article to present argumentive detail. Readers seeking such content would be better served by simply providing an external link to that table at the JW website. BlackCab (talk) 21:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

The table when compared to the long article is short and simple.As the topic is dedicated to beliefs and practices of JW's only, it should be noted that an Encyclopedia(means A comprehensive reference work with numerous aspects of particular field) is expected to give almost all JW's believes with explanation.But here only core beleifs or not even all core beliefs are given in article.You think it would be then large to fit inside the page.If you feel like that one option is to keep beliefs and practices separately in two articles.Or another option is what I did here with the table.Readers are not hijacked, are you? probably No.Hijacked or not Hijacked cannot be supported as a reason for keeping things as it should be kept. You may not worried about what you said Dubious support for statements because,any Reader who is so serious about religion could too understand it is dubious as you said if he is interested like you or if he is thinking of changing religion.Further if someone reduce the scriptures by keeping only the scriptures that are directly supporting the belief,then he would be probably making the article to support the beliefs strongly from scripture.So it is advisable to keep all scriptures JW's use to interpret, whether it could be understood directly or indirectly that shouldn't be bothered.Further our aim is not mix argument rather to include some useful information about JW beliefs. Also you said it is repetitive,but don't you know a summary means a recap or shorter version of whole concept? so it is important for an encyclopedia to include such things otherwise we can call it as a dictionary.Simply providing an external link may be necessary in case we want to have a detailed explanation of each belief.But for merely stating all their general beliefs the table is easy and simple to comprehend by a first look....jeho (talk) 04:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:TLDR--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:03, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

If the article is too big instead of trying to remove some important distinct beliefs divide it separately in to practices and beliefs..jeho (talk) 09:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

In this instance, it was your repetitive multi-section responses that were too long; I was not referring to the (copyvio) table (though that also is too long as a 'summary').--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:46, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The fundamental problem with this table, being lifted straight from a JW webpage, is that it is not a summary of this article. It contains elements that are not considered at this article at all (some of which might be notable enough to add), and there are elements in the article that are not summarised by the table at all.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:16, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

U keep saying again and again the phrase "lifted from JW page",but where can one expect the correct beliefs of JW other than from their own website or their own magazines? The table contains beliefs followed by JW but in addition there are some important distinct beliefs missing too.So if those missing beliefs are not in the article its our duty to include them to in the article with interpretation they give.Otherwise what is the need of encyclopedia article specially dedicated for their beliefs and practices? So it is good to use the table content which can not only summarize the article but also can at least state other major beliefs of them which are not mentioned in the article.I will be trying to find those beliefs which you said not in article and add data too..jeho (talk) 09:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Either the table, lifted from the WT website, has to be reworded completely to avoid the problem of copyright violation, or be removed entirely and an external link added. It's not acceptable to copy such work from a website to Misplaced Pages. This encyclopedia is based on sources, it doesn't simply reproduce them. BlackCab (talk) 09:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The content of the table does not correspond to the content of the article. I am not saying that JW literature cannot be used to cite JW beliefs. However, there is limited value in a somewhat arbitrary selection of beliefs in a table in comparison to what is actually in the article. As already stated, some of the concepts missing from the article but present in the table could be added, however, what about the reverse?? What about the elements that are not covered in the table? Are you going to suggest a synthesis of other elements, or do you want to just ignore them entirely because they're not from the JW site? Also, it would be better to have the relevant parts of each table in each relevant section rather than a 'summary' that is longer than many of the sections combined.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:45, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Nope I am not saying to ignore some beliefs what you said to ignore,but I don't remember any other major belief their ignored.I found holy spirit was ignored and hence added.Also I checked the article with the summary.Almost all the points in the summary are being mentioned in the article directly or indirectly...jeho (talk) 09:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

It might be that the article covers what is in the table but the reverse is definitely not true. The table does not cover everything that is in the article. It is therefore not a "summary". It is, however against Misplaced Pages's copyright policy, so I have removed the table.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:57, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

See here.The removed part of article is subjected to fair use.It should be reverted.Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
the nature of the copyrighted work
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

When Considering the nature of copyrighted work the watchtower publications,they are of non-profit distribution and hence can be used under educational purpose here. Hence the article is under fair use policy of Misplaced Pages.so it should be reverted..Matrix356 (talk) 12:08, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Table reflected the summary of article,and only a small portion of the JW magazine is copied here.The arguements by user Jehonathan was not satifactorly answered and user Jeffro had done decision wrongly without considering fair copyright.But table is useful as per above talks though some changes may necessary.Matrix356 (talk) 12:26, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

One JW's and tons of uncomfortable ex-JW's ha ha..I am at 20 and proud no one here could stop my reasonable arguments and finally as they found no other way to stop my arguments simply deleted the table with a treacherous copyright scheme. Any way remember even if u die here you people cannot stop JW's anywhere.The one who is wise and humble he will attain godly wisdom,others who think they are wiser than Godly organization which helped them to attain basics are mere fools.I will be around in my mother tongue Malayalam Misplaced Pages then.There no much people like you who are so much discomforted by JW's rather they encourage me to write.At least there I could write neutral articles exposing what we believe with the table of scriptures.Learn Malayalam and come there to delete because I am going to hijack(as you fear) many there to JW with bible.One thing also don't forget please delete this comment,otherwise you won't be comfortable in your seat.."Happy is the men who not sit beside ridicules and fools,but whose delight in the law of Jehovah"..Goodbye to English Misplaced Pages..:) jeho (talk) 10:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Request has been given for third opinion..Matrix356 (talk) 12:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

It is an entirely false claim that the table is a representative summary of the article in which it has been pasted (that is, it does not accurately correspond to the article content - there are elements in the table not considered in the article, and there are elements in the article not considered in the table). If the information is to be retained, it needs to be separated with the relevant points in the relevant sections. The bulky table separate from the relevant sections is not helpful as a 'summary' and is longer than many of the sections combined. If the elements of the table are to be retained, there should be adequate balance by providing similar information for other sections in the article for which the table is not at all representative. Additionally, using the entire table as is would certainly seem to be an "Excessively long copyrighted excerpt" (WP:COPYVIO). Using that particular table just because it's from the official JW site is not neutral. Vying for its retention when it is not a representative summary of the article about which its proponent claims it is, is clearly biased.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

jeho: "even if u die here you people cannot stop JW's anywhere ... others who think they are wiser than Godly organization which helped them to attain basics are mere fools" - please quit the religious rhetoric. If you were honest, you would note that I have supported including scriptures JWs use to interpret the points in the various sections in the article, but not using some table claiming to be a 'summary' that is not actually a summary of the sections in this article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Splitting the article

The article is large having two different vast concepts namely belief and practice(99 kb).I Strongly suggest to split the article as per wiki rules.see here

>60 KB -> Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time)

In our case we cannot justify because the scope itself can be split and is a large subject to fit together..Matrix356 (talk) 12:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I would support splitting to two separate articles.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Had been split...need clean up and adjustment as necessary..Matrix356 (talk) 18:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

These splits normally are discussed for more than a few hours before being implemented.
Also, this opportunity may be used to bring this article title in line with the general trend of listing the religion, philosophy, or group first and the word "beliefs" afterward. Consider these article names:

By contrast, I could find only two other articles on group beliefs which begin with the word "Beliefs of":

I recommend changing the article name to Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs (and Jehovah's Witnesses practices).

--AuthorityTam (talk) 19:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I was not aware of that hours rule,but was bold enough to split see here.There it states "If an article meets the criteria for splitting, editors can be bold and carry out the split, although discussion on the article talk page or associated Wiki Project is a way of seeking a consensus"..Thank you..humblefool 20:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jehonathan (talk • contribs)

Yes you are right.Shall Change it to Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs..Thank you for your nice illustration.At least you here supportive for a neutral argument..Matrix356 (talk) 19:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

"Use theocratic war strategy", The Watchtower, May 1, 1957, page 285,286.
"Questions from readers", The Watchtower, June 1, 1960, pages 351-352.
"Christians live the truth", The Watchtower, October 1, 1954, page 597.
Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 2, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1988, pages 244-245.
"Cautious as Serpents Among Wolves", The Watchtower, February 1, 1956, page 86.

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