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Talk:Genital modification and mutilation

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Modification vs. mutilation

Ok, what should be done about Nohat's POV description of the term? I'm especially opposed to the phrase "a name used to show contempt". It is used to give an accurate description and also is a term used in the medical comunity. Nohat also describes his POV option with "Those who prefer to describe such procedures without asserting an opinion about them". // Liftarn

I didn't think it was POV. In fact, I thought it was more NPOV. "Mutilation" is a loaded term. It's just like the abortion debate: The Pro-life lobby calls the Pro-choice crowd "Anti-life." The Pro-choice crowd calls the Pro-lifers "Anti-choice." I think it is NPOV to describe that the term is used as a negative description for the NPOV term "genital modification."
If it is used by the medical community as well, point that out in the article. The article could state that it is used as a POV term, but also by the medical community. —Frecklefoot 16:20, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)
We can't just redesign the language to suit our needs. "Mutilation" is the correct term to use here and thus it should be used. To draw a parallel to the pro-life/pro-choice issue we still call the article "Abortion" as that is the word used. // Liftarn

I'd be inclined to combine this article in with genital modification; "gential mutilation" is already a subhead in genital modification, and much of its content is needlessly duplicated here. That would be the best way, IMHO, to have to controversy presented in a NPOV manner. -- Seth Ilys 16:20, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)


I know there is some unnecessary (and unneeded) duplication. I planned to write a better article, but there are just so many hours in the day. modification and mutilation are two related, but different subjects. Modification is something you select to do yourself, like getting a tattoo or a piercing. Mutilation is something done to you that "radicly alters or makes inperfect". // Liftarn

For reference, I'd like to include the following dictionary definitions of "mutilate":

From Merriam-Webster:

1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors> 2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : CRIPPLE

From the American Heritage Dictionary:

1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple. 2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See synonyms at batter1. 3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

1. trans. To render (a thing, esp. a book or other document) imperfect by cutting out or excising a part; to change or destroy part of the content or meaning of. 2. trans. To deprive (a person or animal) of the use of a limb or bodily organ, by dismemberment or otherwise; to cut off or destroy (a limb or organ); to wound severely, inflict violent or disfiguring injury on. Also intr. In early use freq. in Sc. Law; cf. MUTILATION n. 1. 3. trans. In extended use: to cut back or curtail so as to render ineffectual; to impose brutal or ruinous change on

Also, I'd like to point out that Liftarn made similar claims about "mutilation" being used by the medical community on talk:circumcision but was unable to demonstrate that to anyone's satisfaction. Nohat 16:35, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)

I could hold up paper magazines to the screen, but that wouldn't help much. :-) Medical publications are very restrictive about making their content available to non-subscribers so that makes it very difficult. // Liftarn
Well, you could give complete citations and short quotation that show the usage of the term is not blatantly partisan. Nohat 21:14, 2004 Apr 8 (UTC)

Mkweise also believes the articles genital mutilation and genital modification should be merged. See the bottom of Misplaced Pages:Protected page. Nohat 16:41, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)

I could accept a merge if it would be treated in an unbiased way. For instance starting with "Genital modification or genital mutilation is..." without trying to push for usage of either word. Think about it over Easter and I'll be back on Tuesday to see what can be done. Oh, and it would be nice with an NPOV description of the links. // Liftarn

I would also like to present portions of various Wikipedian's opinions of the word "mutilation", as found on Talk:circumcision Talk:Genital mutilation and Talk:Genital modification. Nohat 20:57, 2004 Apr 8 (UTC)

Opinions of Wikipedians on whether "mutilation" is POV:

user:fabiform: it should be obvious that describing something like a clit piercing or a male circumcision as mutilation is POV.

user:Lestatdelc: I would like to chime in as well that modification is not only accurate and NPOV, but also is the common parlance within communities that engage in elective body-modification. Mutilation does have a POV connotation to most people, and is also reflected in the various dictionary definitions of the term.

user:jaknouse: I agree that the 'mutilation' thing should be couched in NPOV language

Uncle Ed: The word mutilation has connotations of disfigurement and dysfunction as well. If your doctor removes a wart from your nose, are you "disfigured"? Is all plastic surgery "mutilation"?

user:silsor: I also find the word mutilate to be very negatively loaded

user:Eloquence: Let's use the term "mutilation" with attribution, as it implies certain conclusions (foreskin=essential, removing foreskin=makes body less perfect) which are at the very center of the circumcision debate.

user:jredmond: the word "mutilate" has negative connotations in English. Any word with negative connotations is inherently POV. Because it is POV, it is not appropriate for this article, except when characterizing the positions of circumcision's opponents.

user:Frecklefoot: I didn't think POV. In fact, I thought it was more NPOV. "Mutilation" is a loaded term. It's just like the abortion debate: The Pro-life lobby calls the Pro-choice crowd "Anti-life." The Pro-choice crowd calls the Pro-lifers "Anti-choice." I think it is NPOV to describe that the term is used as a negative description for the NPOV term "genital modification."

user:Seth_Ilys: I'd be inclined to combine this article in with genital modification; "genital mutilation" is already a subhead in genital modification, and much of its content is needlessly duplicated here. That would be the best way, IMHO, to have to controversy presented in a NPOV manner.

I would like to second Seth Ilys's point. I think that any relevant unique information on this page can be put into the subsection "mutilation" and expanded with appropriate language to make clear what the issues are and NPOV. This page could then be made a redirect which would point to the expanded NPOV entry of genital modification and that should resolve it. Lestatdelc 21:14, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

user:Exploding Boy: I think it's safe to say that an unnecessary, involuntary procedure that removes an essential organ is mutilation, but a voluntary procedure done for health or cosmetic reasons is modification.


Old text (after full rewrite) by Uncle Ed:

is a name for various types of alteration of the genitals for non-medical purposes. According to advocates of genital mutilation the term can be used as a stigma against the action, and can be applied to gential modification for medical reasons, cosmetic reasons, upholding tradition, or the result of assault. They also claim that whether a gential modification is considered "mutilation" or the norm depends upon the viewpoint of the speaker.

In most cases ritual genital mutilation is performed on infants or children without consent.

The most common forms are:

I tried for neutrality, by separating advocacy into proponents and opponents. I thought there was too much "male circumcision = mutilation" there . . .

Are the various points of view (POV) clarified and properly attributed? Please help me finish this! --Uncle Ed 16:32, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Oh dear... // Liftarn

Why was this page moved from the correct term Genital mutilation without any discussion? // Liftarn

Although I wasn't involved in the move, my suspicion is that it was for NPOV reasons. Most cultures that perform said mutilations/modifications do not consider them to be multilations, thus renaming the page "modifications" takes their point of view into consideration. However, it seems a lot of content has been removed from prior versions, also in the attempt to be NPOV, and maybe we can rectify that. --zandperl 12:30, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So orwellian. If you don't like what something is called you just change the name. However "genital modifications" and "genital mutilation" are related, but still two very different things. // Liftarn


I've moved the article title back to "genital mutilation", and used the convention that it's "mutilation" if you don't want it or can't consent to it (which is the common case: African FGM), and "modification" if you do and can (the much rarer bodymod culture). I'll let the circumcision article fight its own battles regarding that topic. -- Karada 13:27, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like a good solution. If there is enough material we could also have an article on genital modification // Liftarn
There is nothing about the words "mutilation" and "modification" that imply a distinction based on consent. The only difference is that "mutilation" is loaded with negative connotation and "modification" is neutral. The only reason to use the word "mutilation" as opposed to "modification" is to further the POV that the modification in question is somehow bad, which is a violation of NPOV policy. It is inappropriate for Misplaced Pages to call anything mutilation as the word is inherently POV.
As regards circumcision, the battles that are won (or lost) there have to reflect on other articles. It is very clearly pushing the "circumcision is evil" POV to list circumcision on a page titled "genital mutilation". I'm moving the page back. Nohat 14:32, 2004 Apr 5 (UTC)

Please do not move the article again! If you have a problem with the wording I suggest that you present your case here first. // Liftarn

English Comprehension 101:

  • A modification is any change.
  • A mutilation is the removal of tissue, especially healthy tissue.

A genitial mutilation, it follows, is always a modification, but a modification is not always a mutilation. For example, removal of a genital wart is a modification but not a mutilation (as the wart is not actually a part of the genitals, simply a growth); similarly, adding a tattoo is a modification but not (generally speaking) a mutilation (though if it were done under duress that would be a different matter); in contrast, a castration is a modification and a mutilation. Tannin

Advanced English Comprehension: Using Dictionaries

Did you just make these definitions up? Made-up meanings for words don't constitute a valid argument, especially since your made-up defition of "mutilation" has nothing to do with the actual definition of the word. Why don't you try using real definitions from actual dictionaries? As I explained before, a "mutilation" is inherently negative and POV, as these real definitions from actual dictionaries demonstrate:

"mutilate" from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary: 1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors> 2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : CRIPPLE

"mutilate" from the American Heritage Dictionary 1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple. 2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See synonyms at batter1. 3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

"mutilation" from the Oxford English Dictionary 1. Sc. Criminal Law. The act or process of disabling or maiming a person by wounding a limb or organ. Now hist. In early use sometimes distinguished from demembration (or complete amputation) as comprising any injury to a limb or organ whether or not the affected part is actually severed from the body. Both crimes are now subsumed under the general heading of assault. 2. a. More generally: the action of mutilating a person or animal; the severing or maiming of a limb or bodily organ; an instance of this. Also: the fact or condition of being mutilated or maimed. b. Castration. Obs. rare. 3. The action of making something, esp. a book or text, imperfect by excision or destruction of one or more of its parts; an instance of this

As you can see, the concept of disability, essential part, crippling, making imperfect, etc. are inherent to the meaning of "mutilate", and not everyone would agree that all the modifications discussed on this page constitute all of those things, particularly circumcision. So unless you can justify that all the types of genital modifications on this page meet the defitions given here, there's no valid argument for calling them mutilations. Nohat 15:08, 2004 Apr 6 (UTC)

Once we clear out the meaningless rhetoric from the above, we discover that a mutilation is exactly what I said it was, only in far fewer words: the removal of tissue, especially healthy tissue. Your point seems to be that you have no point, merely a raging POV. Tannin 15:17, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It is easy to assert your opinion without making a point, which is what you have just done. "Mutilation" inherently includes the ideas of "making imperfect", "disability", "essential part", and "crippling". It is not just simply "removing healthy tissue", or else would you describe a nose job or breast reduction as "mutilation"? Nohat
If they were performed on a non-consenting victim, of courseI would, and so would you. Technically, even with consent a nose job is multilation, but most people would not use the term in that context, as nose jobs, unlike genital mutilations, are almost never performed without the consent of the person who owns the nose. Tannin
Once again, you bring in the concept of consent, but I don't see anywhere in any of the dictionary definitions where consent has anything to do with "mutilation". Therefore, the criteria of consent prima facie is not a valid distinction between mutilation and non-mutilation. Mutilation is a modification that the person who uses the word doesn't approve of, and is inherently POV. Nohat 15:40, 2004 Apr 6 (UTC)
So you are arguing that there is no such thing as mutilation then? Gahh.... What nonsense. What do you call a clitoridectomy then? Or the amputation of, say, an ear? Really, you need to think about trying to be a little more consistent in your emotional response to what is, after all, a simple and clear concept. Tannin
Of course there is such a thing as "mutilation". In fact I personally would describe most of the things on this page as mutilation. However, I recognize using the word mutilation inherently puts forth the POV that whatever is described as mutilation is bad. It is Misplaced Pages policy not take sides in issues, and if Misplaced Pages calls something "mutilation" it is taking the side that whatever it calls mutilation is bad. Obviously in the case of the things descried on this page, in our enlightened Western POV, the drastic nonconsensual modification of babies' genitalia, like female circumcision and castration, is a bad thing, Opinions differ more widely on circumcision in the modern West, but it is important that if any opinion is included in the Misplaced Pages article that it is contextualized as the opinion of those who hold it and not presented as bald fact, because there ARE people who don't think it's a bad thing, and if they speak English don't use the word "mutilate" to describe what they're doing. Modification is a neutral word, mutilation is not. Nohat 16:03, 2004 Apr 6 (UTC)

Even if the term "mutilation" is not inherently POV, and does just refer to the removal of healthy tissue - NOT ALL GENITAL MODS REMOVE TISSUE. Piercings, for example, simply make a hole through tissue, without removing anything - the same goes for meatotomy, subincision, and genital bisection. Modification is far bigger and more general than mutilation - they should be seperate pages, they are NOT interchangable. Apart from this, calling any genital modification mutilation is outrageous - if one were to apply this logic to all modification of genitalia; the breaking of the hymen upon first vaginal insertion (virginal sex) would need to be considered mutilation. --OldakQuill 16:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Agree! "Genital modification" is another thing than "genital mutilation". Modification probably belongs together with other types of body modifications (piercings, tattoos, scaring, plating et.c). I also object to this orwellian desire to redefine the language just because some persons may be offended. I suggest we use two articles, one for modifications and one for mutilations. // Liftarn

Reading through the above I have to agree, in part, with Nohat. The term "mutilation" has a negative connotation... it should be obvious that describing something like a clit piercing or a male circumcision as mutilation is POV. I don't understand how Tanin sees mutilation as a neutral word when the definitions include terms like "maiming", "disabling" or "wounding". OldakQuill also makes a good point - Tannin's definition of mutilation as the removal of healthy tissue would exclude several of the procedures such as piercings that this article deals with.

However, I'm not convinced that "modification" is the correct word to use either. To modify:

  • OED. (4) To make partial changes in; to change (an object) in respect of some of its qualities; to alter or vary without radical transformation.
  • Merriam Webster: (3) a : to make minor changes in b : to make basic or fundamental changes in often to give a new orientation to or to serve a new end <the wing of a bird is an arm modified for flying>
  • American Heritage: (1) To change in form or character; alter.

As far as I can see, only the last definition supports our use of modification, since a procedure such as female circumcision is so radical that is amounts to a substantial change. Well, neither word is perfect. Out of the two I vastly prefer "modification"... but perhaps we should try to think of other alternatives? fabiform | talk 18:59, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Some good points Fabiform, however the term "Modification" is generally used by most in reference to tattoos, piercings, etc. The biggest site I can find is http://www.bmezine.com/ which stands for Body Modification E-Zine as an example. Beside this, I would contend that many proceedures constitute as radical. As I earlier suggested - they should be seperate articles as they are seperate things. There should be minor crossover, modification should have references to "forced modification" such as female-circumcision which is "counter to current morality". Just as mutilation should have references to modification, it is after a radical, and forced modification.--OldakQuill 19:29, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

We should also consider which name the practice is best known as. Part of the Misplaced Pages naming convention is to use the most popular name for a term. For example, the page on the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is titled NASA despite the general policy of no acronyms for page titles. Similarly, if we're to get extremely picky, we could say that Holocaust is a POV title.

My point is, are people more likely to type in "genital modification" or "genital mutilation" when trying to find this article? Personally, I think for the former I'd want an article on body piercing and on the latter I'd be looking for FGM, so I'd vote to make the two separate pages. I'd settle for a single page that has sections on both FGM-type acts and body piercing-type acts, as well as a section that actually discusses the different terms for them both.

--zandperl 19:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, there would of course be redirects to the page that has the content. How about calling the page "genital alteration", with sections "elective modification" and "involuntary modification"? I placed content at genital alteration. Perhaps eventually, genital mutilation and genital alteration can link there.

"Alteration" means simply "making a change" and so neutrally encompasses everything described here. Nohat 20:27, 2004 Apr 6 (UTC)

Alteration is certainly neutral... but it's also somewhat vague. It doesn't even restrict it to intentional changes. Perhaps I'm too picky though. I have the feeling that zandperl is optimistic in thinking that there's a definate and clear dividing line between the two kinds of procedures, sure it's easy to say FGM is on one side and a piercing is on the other (although that's a POV), but male circumcision at least isn't that easy to categorise. That's why one page which looks at the whole spectrum is useful. fabiform | talk 22:32, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I must also say that Alteration is not the commonly used term. This is modification. --OldakQuill 22:48, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I vote for genital modification too. Not only does "modification" achieve the same NPOV effect as "alteration" - "modification" also means simply "making a change", and without the negative connotations of "mutilation" - but it also keeps us consistent with body modification (to which both mutilation and body alteration redirect), and allows a more complete NPOV discussion of the various motives behind genital-mod practices (including but not limited to religion, aesthetics, and sexual function). - jredmond 22:59, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Haven't heard from Tannin since 11:48, 2004 Apr 6. Shall we assume his silence constitutes consent to move the article back to genital modification? Nohat 23:39, 2004 Apr 6 (UTC)

For the love of Mike, some of us have to actually go to the office and do work sometimes. Tannin 10:49, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What if he's just asleep, or at work or something? To avoid a "move war", it might be best to ask on his talk page if he's OK with the title genital modification (it gets my vote by the way). There's no great rush. fabiform | talk 00:05, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Oh I see you've already moved it. I think it's still night where he lives so no wonder he didn't pitch in recently. I've asked his opinion on his talk page. fabiform | talk 00:15, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, he made 4 edits shortly after 22:36, 2004 Apr 6 (UTC), so I presumed he had time to look over this debate and choose not to comment. However, of course, if he or anyone chimes in with valid argments as to why it should be moved back to genital mutilation, we can move it back, but the current weight of opinion seems to be in favor of the status quo. Nohat 00:36, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)

I would like to chime in as well that modification is not only accurate and NPOV, but also is the common parlance within communities that engage in elective body-modification. Mutilation does have a POV connotation to most people, and is also reflected in the various dictionary definitions of the term. Lestatdelc 00:33, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

My vote is for two pages. One for mutilation and one for modifications. They are two related, but quite different subjects. // Liftarn

This seems specious to me. For example, tatooing and branding have been adopted for a number of uses throughout history, including ornamentation, ritual, group identification, marking ownership (of both livestock and slaves), and criminal punishment. You would have us describe the voluntary uses as body modification, but the involuntary ones as mutilation (which, incidentally, redirects to body modification). However, it is (on a technical level) the same practice, but associated with very different connotations by the cultures in which it occurs, and it would be silly to split the page on, say, tattooing, into two separate pages to describe its voluntary and involuntary uses. Shimmin 17:24, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Let's say suicide/murder or rape/intercourse. There are two different words depending on if it's voluntary or not. This case is no different. Also notice that "genital mutilation" is the words for instance WHO uses. // Liftarn
Once again, the concept of consent has brought brought into this debate EVEN THOUGH it has been pointed out again and again that no dictionary definition supports the contention that consent is a valid criterion for "mutilation". Neither do "suicide" or "murder" have anything to do with consent, they simply have to do with who is killing whom. And the defintion of "rape" explicity includes the concept of consent. It may be appealing to make the analogy intercourse:rape::modification:mutilation, but it's a false analogy because the definitions of the words are not analogous. Furthermore, if "mutilation" was inherently nonconsensual, how could there be such a thing as "self-mutilation"? Nohat 20:19, 2004 Apr 8 (UTC)
The World Health Organisation is campaigning against female circumcision. That's a POV many share, but a POV nonetheless. fabiform | talk 07:36, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thay are, but they are using an NPOV term to describe it. Btw, I'll be away over Easter so please play nice while I'm gone. // Liftarn

"medical reasons"

I added the phrase "for non-medical reasons" to the end of the first sentence, mostly to keep this article more consistent with body modification, but also to keep us from having to drudge through surgical topics like vasectomy or hysterectomy. If the consensus is against me, though, I'll remove it. - jredmond 01:13, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with that phrase. Male circumcision can be medically necessary (rarely), but more importantly proponants of male circumcision say that it's medically benificial. I see what you're trying to do (although the removal of the uterus wouldn't normally be described as a genital modification) but it seems innacurate/POV to me. fabiform | talk 11:31, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
But circumcision is also performed for non-medical reasons (religion, aesthetics, family conformity, etc.). And I'm not suggesting we remove everything that is performed medically - there are medical reasons for full or partial castration as well - just that we leave out those mods that are purely medical.
(I was trying to think of a purely medical procedure involving a woman's genitals. Since I already had "vasectomy" in my head, the "ectomy" sort of prompted "hysterectomy". "Episiotomy" is more like what I had in mind.) - jredmond 15:04, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
But the article doesn't say that at the moment, it says "Genital modification is a term used to describe changes or body modifications made to genitals for non-medical reasons" which surely excludes all the cases where there is a medical (preventative or curative) motivation? fabiform | talk 15:44, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
That sentence didn't have the "for non-medical reasons" phrase before. To my eyes, it could have been interpreted to include medical mods too. - jredmond 01:28, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I changed this to "usually for non-medical reasons" as most genital modifications are either ritual (in the case of circumcision) or elective non-medical (as in subincision, etc), but in some rare cases are medically necessary. Nohat 23:06, 2004 Apr 8 (UTC)

Hmm... I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, it's true that some mods are usually done for non-medical reasons, but have definite medical uses; OTOH, where do we draw the line? - jredmond 01:28, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

proposed new structure

I say we create a modification atricle series... 3 chief catagories: removal of tissue (mainly mutilation), modification of tissue (piercings, meatotomy), and addition to tissue (implants pearling, tattoing, etc. --OldakQuill 10:40, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)Perhpas this, though slightly more extended:

  • Removal of Tissue
    • Male Circumcision
    • Female Circumcision
    • Castration
    • Penectomy
  • Modification of Tissue
    • Male Piercing
    • Female Piercing
    • Splitting
      • Genital Bisection
      • Subincision
      • Meatotomy
  • Addition to Tissue
    • Pearling
    • Genital Tattooing
These look good to me.  :) fabiform | talk 11:31, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I think your structure is fine, but it can be kept in one article "Gential Modification" with relvant expansion to differentiate "mutliations" which is a subjective criterion and POV term where needed, with re-directs on pages "gential mutliation", "genital bisection" etc. I think this could be a singular, comprehenssive page structured along your outline. Lestatdelc 00:20, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

This seems like the best time to get the most attention, as genital modification appears to be controvertial of late. How about a body modification (or perhpas just genital modification) series. http://en.wikipedia.org/MediaWiki:Body_Modification - I have come up with this, though the bulletted format doesn't seem to work. If you have any ideas or modifications, better "modification tree" etc. just mention it, thanks. --OldakQuill 18:59, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Go ahead, it sounds fine to me. Nohat 23:06, 2004 Apr 8 (UTC)

horrorshow

This horror show needs at minimum to be merged with genital mutilation, w one redirecting to the other. I am far to outraged about the particulars to say much more than that. Sam Spade 22:47, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You must REALLY hate all the entries on WWII then, I mean, talk about horror show and sense of proportion. (smirk). Lestatdelc 00:20, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
I don't know what your talking about, but its pretty clear that your comment is useless and unsuited to the task of creating a better encyclopedia article. Sam Spade 01:50, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What I am "talking about" is your ridiculous characterization of this subject being a "horror show" in particular in the context of the vulgarity of much of what we as human beings do to one another, be it war, crime, which are staples of most of western culture, be it movies, books, songs, you name it. Your hypocrisy and feigned indigence about this topic is the only example in this exchange which indicates an inability to be objective and to work to make a better article, and it is yours. This is evidenced by your "horror show" comment and the highly POV suggestion that conflation of the contents of this article into that of "genital mutilation" which is inaccurate, and rife with subjective, negative connotations and implications. As for your shrill suggestion that my quip is somehow an indication I cannot contribute to such matters which you find so abhorrent is comical to say the least given your already misguided suggestions thus far. Lestatdelc 21:00, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
Sam, I don't know what your talking about in either of your comments, but its pretty clear that your comment is useless and unsuited to the task of creating a better encyclopedia article.--OldakQuill 11:21, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Let us not forget, of course, that "horrorshow" is the Nadsat word for "good", from Russian хорошо (IPA ) Nohat 21:09, 2004 Apr 8 (UTC)

Interesting addendum, but do you honestly think that Sam was using the Russian Nadsat word for "good" in this context? Lestatdelc 21:56, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
No, not really, but his original comment seemed like harmless heckling from the sidelines, unworthy of response, certainly not the polemic you gave him! But Sam Spade seems controversial and maybe you've had previous incidents with him that merited that kind of response. You should have just ignored him as he seems to have gotten your goat. I was just trying to lighten the mood a little. It's all horrorshow. Nohat 23:00, 2004 Apr 8 (UTC)
No previous incidents with him in particular though on issues surrounding sexuality that is outside the conservative "norm" I do not suffer fools lightly. Though I would say (and was obviously unable to convey) that I was actually chuckling as I wrote my question to you. Not in a foul mood over it at all, then or now. Have had to contended with outright physical violent behavior over issues surrounding non-procreative or non-heterosexual issues so this is nuthin' ! ;-) Lestatdelc 23:33, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
Am I not right in thinking Malcolm McDowells character, in Clockwork Orange, uses "horrorshow" in some positive context? --OldakQuill 01:05, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You are right - read the Nadsat article. :) - jredmond 01:28, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The talk pages for both "Genital modification" and "Genital mutilation" seem to have reached some kind of consensus for an article merge, but cannot agree on a title. So I've unprotected, merged the articles into a single article Genital modification and mutilation, and just concatenated their text in the new article. -- The Anome 09:57, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

---

was any sort of consensus ever reached on the modification/mutilation issue? Exploding Boy 14:18, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

No, but it's pretty clear that there is a consensus that there is a distinction between the actual surgical acts and the way they are viewed as good/evil/neutral by different people and cultures. Therefore, they belong in a single article that discusses both the acts and the reactions to them. -- The Anome 18:34, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

We intactivists care about the genital integrity of all individuals subjected to involuntary non-medically necessary genital mutilation.

?alabio 22:50, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

I fixed the "modification" slant. Both sides should be about equal now. Seems like some sentences described modification as "modification", and mutilation as "modification" too! Technically both words qualify, but postive and negative POV is obviously something fought about constantly. DanP 20:06, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)


"Non-consensual" is key to the mutilation issue. Exploding Boy 23:22, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)

That isn't supported by any dictionary definition. - Jakew 23:49, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That's true. Mutilation most often refers to removal of some kind, in terms of most dictionaries anyway. I have changed the sentence on mutilation views, since a person might perceive all, some, or none to be mutilation based on their personal opinions on the matter. Although clearly many people include consensual basis in their definitions. Otherwise nearly everything that draws blood and leaves a mark could be mutilation, so there is some hint of "deliberateness" of the act. DanP 00:11, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • Who exactly are these "many people" Dan? Minority and fringe group views should not be presented as mainstream opinion. Please don't do it. - Robert the Bruce 04:01, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, but the revision as it stands is simply not sufficient, never mind that it contradicts information in the rest of the article. Exploding Boy 17:22, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)

Robert, what are you talking about? There are plenty of people who say even genital piercing is mutilation, and some US states even have laws against it (one state even stops adults under mutilation laws). I am somewhat neutral here, in saying that it's just a matter of opinion as to whether the word mutilation applies. That is very different than saying whether it's right, wrong, fringe, or mainstream. Those are different than whether a word fits. DanP 19:16, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

page protection

I have requested that this page be protected to avoid the recent flurry of reverts from turning into a full-fledged edit war. Please do not make changes to the main article. Bring your concerns here for discussion. Exploding Boy 20:36, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

Discussion

I feel that Jakew's version of the article, to which he is continually reverting, does not represent a clear, balanced, and well-laid out view of the topic. Please discuss below, and refrain from making changes until consensus is reached. Exploding Boy 22:51, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps, instead of merely grumbling, you'd like to explain the specific reasons why you felt it appropriate to revert the changes? If you don't explain your objections, how on earth can we be expected to resolve them? - Jakew 15:17, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I could say the same to you. I think that the version to which you would like to revert is less complete, less clear, and less neutral. I also think that the layout -- with the list of changes in the middle of the article -- is less useful.

My changes included:

  • layout -- putting the list of mods at the end avoids breaking up the flow of the article and follows the style of other articles
  • change of "modifications or mutilations" to "alterations" where necessary to avoid non-NPOV and wordiness
  • cleaning up the middle section on circumcision and naming it as such
  • making clear the fact that the distinction between modification and mutilation is personal and can depend on cultural or political biases (among others), and that the choice of one word over the other can be indicative of an individual's agenda
  • improvements to general clarity and style

I don't think any information is missing, and I would appreciate it if you would stop calling me a vandal. A vandal is someone who blanks articles or purposely adds false, misleading or irrelevant information or profanities to an article, not someone who spends time improving it. Exploding Boy 16:41, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with many of your changes to the base text. I have taken your altered version and incorporated some of my improvements to this, thus effectively merging improvements made by us both. It would have been helpful if you'd done this in the first place...

My changes include:

  • An observation on lack of dictionary support for consent as criteria
  • Removal of "who elect to have their own genitals altered in some way, or " and "who have had their genitals altered against their wishes, or those". I actually think that the article would actually be improved by removal of these sentences altogether, but as a minimum these parts should be removed. The reason is simple: there's absolutely no reason to believe it to be true. As an alternative, I suppose we could change "is generally preferred" to "may be preferred" in both cases, but it makes for a somewhat vague statement, don't you think?
  • Removal of "Some consider all sex reassignment surgery to be genital mutilation; others consider it so if performed without the consent of the individual concerned, for example if performed on a child." - it is essentially a repetition of the third paragraph.
  • Added "medical" as reasons for male circumcision
  • Changed "part of intactivism" to "one aspect of..."
  • Added "foreskin restoration" to "alteration of tissue" (in addition to addition of tissue - the surgical methods do alter tissue).

- Jakew 19:14, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think the article's looking fine, but since "intactivism" is used by some groups, I think it can stay (particularly as there is a link to the relevant article). Exploding Boy 22:48, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not arguing that it should be removed altogether. But in the interest of remaining grammatically correct, we should either say "part of "intactivism"..." or "part of Intactivism". The former is probably more correct, thinking about it. - Jakew 22:56, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Continued Reverts

Jakew, please indicate why you're reverting. We can try to combine our changes, if you desire. DanP 23:26, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

DanP, I made a number of changes, which Exploding Boy and I seem to have agreed upon. You decided to revert them, for no apparent reason, and without discussion. Consequently, I undid your revert. - Jakew 23:35, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Similarly, your changes reverted many of mine. I'm sure we can mix them together. DanP 23:54, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)


As long as this article is in dispute, please discuss changes here before reverting large portions of the article. I've asked another admin to protect the article but it has yet to be done. In the meantime, let's tread lightly. Exploding Boy 23:59, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry if your changes were lost, especially if that was through an oversight on my part. Please see the above section for discussion of changes made so far. - Jakew 00:02, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I moved it to a table format. I hope that's OK. Some of the phrases still hint that one side is correct. I changed those too, and ideally nobody should see a slant in any particular direction. DanP 01:10, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Dan your questioning the reverting habits of others is interesting given your habit of indulging in same. Would you mind explaining your confusing actions inthis regard? - Robert the Bruce 04:29, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • If you've followed each step, it was not the reverts that were the only issue. Most of our changes were perfectly compatible, but sometimes they are clumsily overlooked. I'm sorry if I contributed to that phenomena, but I can at least admit when I've stumbled in that regard. DanP 15:24, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've reverted some changes by DanP. They seemed to add nothing to the article except grammatical errors, and that table was horrible. The list format is much easier to read. Exploding Boy 16:19, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry for the table, I'm OK with the list format. But why do you delete all of the content? DanP 19:09, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm with EB on this one. Here are my objections:

  • The table!
  • Dictionary definitions: lacks coherence. The paragraph is about consent.
  • Normative: see a dictionary. The sentence structure is also better.
  • It's absurd to say that proponents claim something is performed for a reason. The reasons are real, whether right or wrong.
  • Prevalence/geographical region: I've tried to adapt and incorporate this.

- Jakew 19:32, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jakew, I tried to combine into the list and abandon the table. On your specific objections:

  • If the dictionary can be used to refute consent (which is pushed neither way in the dictionary), why do you object to it being used for tissue removal (which is clearly there)?
  • Normative. It's still an assertion. Qualify it with who is making such a dubious claim.
  • The article goes beyond that - it claims that is the why a procedure is done. That is very different that the real reason, which you've made no end of emphasizing in the foreskin restoration article. Which do you accept? (1) A reason (once stated) is always real (2) A reason is always claimed and/or asserted by some proponent. Let's be consistent here.

DanP 19:44, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

DanP, good plan regarding the list. To answer your questions:

  • The very fact that the dictionary is silent on consent is why it refutes it! The paragraph is on consent, rather than on formal definition of mutilation. I wouldn't object to an additional paragraph on formal definitions being added, however.
As far as I can tell, the focus of formal definitions seems to be damage (or harm), rather than removal per se, though removal of something considered to be essential appears to count.
  • Normative. Look at the sentence structure: "For still others, less "extreme" alterations (such as piercing), or alterations which are seen as normative (such as male circumcision) are "modifications,"" - it's obvious that the alterations are seen as normative by the 'others' concerned.
  • This is what it says: "Male circumcision may be performed for religious, social or medical reasons". Note the use of the word "may". Are you seriously suggesting that any of these three reasons are impossible? Or are you saying that other reasons should be added? I'm confused by your discussion of the foreskin restoration article. - Jakew 20:10, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not at all. The sentence structure does not say "normative as seen by those performing or requesting the procedure". It says "seen as normative" with the subordinate clause being passive (perhaps suggesting "seen by all" or perhaps "seen by the person on whom the procedure is performed", it is POV). I would never do this, but I could try saying "seen as normative" with the foreskin restoration article, since the majority of men have foreskin (ie. that is the norm on planet earth). But you would change it without delay no matter how I phrased it. Is that a fair assessment? Regarding the "may": First, there is connotation of permission ("You may have an ice cream cone"). Change it to "might" or similar terminology indicating the true relevance or motivation. Second, those are reasons suggested by the promoter. You have emphasized in the foreskin restoration discussion : To be fair, not all motivations are consciously understood, so it may be unrealistic to say that anyone truly knows their motivations. I have accepted some of your wording in that article that dilutes the certainty of stated reasons to that of the person actually engaged in such practice. I ask you to do exactly the same here. DanP 00:19, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Regarding "may": In light of your first point, I've changed it to "might". The sentence lists possible reasons, and isn't exclusive. If you'd like to add other possibilities, I wouldn't object (as long as they're sensible, of course!). Regarding normative, how about changing the sentence structure to avoid the ambiguity? - Jakew 00:29, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"are seen as normative"

By who? I know thats not NPOV. Sam 14:33, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Section removed from article

For still others, less "extreme" alterations (such as piercing), or those that they regard as normative (for example, infant circumcision) are "modifications," while more extreme alterations (such as castration), even if undertaken voluntarily, are mutilation.

Thats your opinion, there is nothing normative about genital mutilation, voluntary or no. Sam 15:27, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My opinion is irrelevant - it merely says that they (the "others" mentioned) regard the alterations as normative. - Jakew 15:38, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Who doesn't think what they do is normative? Its an irrlevant POV statement. Sam 16:19, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Who doesn't think what who do? Sorry, your question doesn't make sense - want to try again? Mentioning someone's opinion, without describing it as right or wrong, is not POV. For example, saying "some people think that any surgical modification to the genitals is mutilation" is not POV because it doesn't endorse that view. - Jakew 16:36, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Genital "modification" is not normative!

and you can't have the article saying it is, its not NPOV. Sam 23:28, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Jake, clearly you wouldn't leave the phrase "seen as mutilation". Why are you leaving "seen as normative"? If you refer to my paragraph above: The sentence structure does not say "normative as seen by those performing or requesting the procedure". It says "seen as normative" with the subordinate clause being passive (perhaps suggesting "seen by all" or perhaps "seen by the person on whom the procedure is performed", it is POV). I would never do this, but I could try saying "seen as normative" with the foreskin restoration article, since the majority of men have foreskin (ie. that is the norm on planet earth). You are a rational person and I'm sure you can see how this does more than merely state that an opinion exists. So if the POV is objected to as horrifying, there also a good logical basis for removing or changing it to neutrality. DanP 23:36, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ok, it now (again) says "which they see as normative". So it's clear that it is their point of view, not one endorsed by the article. Any objections? - Jakew 00:22, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thats better. I'm removing this page from my watchlist, it makes me unhappy. Sam 13:46, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Modification vs. mutilation again

Robert, please don't blow away whatever you like. I'm sensitive to your concerns. The section on modification vs. mutilation was inherently confusing. Obviously some people include consent, age, necessity, severity, etc. (or any combination of them) in their distinctions. It seems best just to state them, and let the reader decide. I have no desire to stifle your viewpoint, but it seems better to include more than just a handful of random examples. DanP 00:06, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Infant circumcision

Exploding Boy, circumcision is only one practice among the many listed. I believe the article should not single out one practice over another, to make an example out of it. Whether it is piercing, castration, or circumcison, each article can make its definition separately. But to point more strongly at just one in an encyclopedia definition -- especially while whole articles exist on the matter -- seems off topic and slightly fixated, IMHO. If you honestly believe you can substitute any genital modification and mutilation practice at all in the example, and it would leave the readability and NPOV exactly the same, then I apologize. Otherwise, I hope you see my point that choice of definition is up to the reader without highlighting one practice to act as a prototype for all the others in the text. DanP 01:01, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think it's important to use the same example in both sentences -- presenting both a negative and a positive view and expressing a preference for neither is inherently neutral. A lot of the cleanup in this article involved removing the many, many examples. We can't give examples for every possible combination of what one person might consider to be (or not to be) mutilation/modification, or we'll be here forever. The phrase "for example" allows for all possibilities. Exploding Boy 19:40, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

Removed part of description of external link

By saying it has "statistics" and a "description of circumcision" Misplaced Pages tacitly implies that it supports the veracity and accuracy of the statistics and description, which is not necessarily true. Calling it an "opinion article" is sufficient. Let the reader decide for himself if it contains statistics and a description or if it contains lies and exaggerations. Nohat 21:16, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Seems sensible to me. -Jakew 21:59, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Re: recent removal

Hold on a second. Exactly how is this "pushing a point of view":

The United States government passed a federal law in 1996, which became effective in April 1997, criminalizing female genital mutilation. The law provides that the practice of FGM on a person(s) under the age of 18 is a federal crime, unless the procedure is necessary to protect the health of a young person or for medical purposes connected with labor or birth. The penalty for violating this law is a fine or imprisonment for up to five years, or both. This law specifically exempts cultural beliefs or practices as a defense. In addition, many states have specific laws criminalizing the practice.
No similar laws have been passed anywhere in the United States which criminalize genital cutting and removal on males under 18.

?? It seems to be clearly and unambiguously stating a fact, namely that the removal of parts of the female gentitalia for non-medical reasons is illegal, while the removal of parts of the male genitalia for non-medical reasons is not. Please explain. Exploding Boy 23:42, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

I didn't make that edit, but the second paragraph looks pretty loaded to me. Perhaps it can be rephrased... - jredmond 23:50, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

BTW... in the second paragraph I used the term "cutting and removal" because those are the exact words used in the federal law. If that term is loaded, blame congress. I am only using accurate legal phrasing in disussing the legal aspect of the topic. That is the way legal points are made.

Pictures?

Have there ever been pictoral representations of the topics in this article? Should there be? I think so.--Anchoress 19:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)