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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ludwigs2 (talk | contribs) at 15:46, 14 January 2011 (→Comments by others about the request concerning Joshua P. Schroeder: r to Stephan). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WP:AE

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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. 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Joshua P. Schroeder

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Joshua P. Schroeder

User requesting enforcement

Cla68 (talk) 00:15, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Joshua P. Schroeder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience
Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. sarcastic, belittling, disruptive, vandalistic edit
2. revert wars to readd it
3. blanks the page
4. Had previously blanked the page then immediately nominated it for deletion
5. Belittles other editors in a noticeboard discussion
6. Belittles another editor in article talk page discussion

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warning by ArbCom
2. Previous ArbCom topic ban for similar behavior
3. Extensive block log for similar behavior

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Based on the history, I think a topic ban from science articles should be on the table.

Regardless of the merits of the request, I question whether administrators have the to do this. For fringe or pseduo-science articles, sure, but not for science articles as a whole. NW (Talk) 03:00, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

As a purely academic question only, we can impose, inter alia, "bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics". I think it is reasonable to say that "science" is closely related to "pseudoscience". T. Canens (talk) 06:11, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

That seems like too much of a stretch to me. If that were the case, you could extend discretionary sanctions to every biology article, physics article, astronomy article, chemistry article, geoscience article, to name just a few (all fields within the natural sciences). By that rationale, it would not be unreasonable to include oil field prospecting (part of geoscience) in the topic ban. I hardly think that ArbCom intended for such a thing. NW (Talk) 08:10, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention the social and historical sciences. In pinch, Science goes back to scientia, meaning "knowledge", and thus applies to all of Misplaced Pages. That is a very slippery slope. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:39, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Joshua P. Schroeder (JPS, and previously known as ScienceApologist) has asked me not to edit his userpage, so could someone else please notify him of this enforcement action? As for the content dispute involved here, JPS's source is, arguably, reliable. It's not a blog as I mistakenly called it. That said, however, JPS's bullying, bellitling, and battleground behavior over the issue continues his long pattern of disrupting Misplaced Pages in this manner. Cla68 (talk) 00:15, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Joshua P. Schroeder

Statement by Joshua P. Schroeder

Comments by others about the request concerning Joshua P. Schroeder

Cla68, could you explain how this edit is "vandalistic" under the definition at WP:VANDAL?   Will Beback  talk  00:28, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

JPS said this, "The RHETI promoters have hired people to test their lunacy, but all they've got is some piss-poor studies that they paid for." Looks like it meets the WP:VANDAL definition of "crude humor". He then blanked the page when an IP tried to remove the vandalism. Blanking a page also meets the definition. Cla68 (talk) 00:35, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

It's an addition of a Q/A pair to a FAQ. It's also factually correct. While the tone is unsuitable for the encyclopaedia proper, it's within acceptable boundaries for a FAQ on a talk page. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:48, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

"to test their lunacy" is not a factually correct statement - no one involved with the issue has been definitively judged to be mentally incompetent under any legal or therapeutic system. There may be factually correct elements of JPS' edit, but the overall tone is one of prejudicial disdain. I don't really have an opinion on this enforcement issue, mind you, but I am tired of science mavens who think they can talk about pseudoscience issues as though everyone involved with them were factually morons, fuckheads, and/or creeps. Being right does not entitle one to be a rude-assed son-of-a-bitch, and people who think that it does do more damage to the encyclopedia than any of the the project's fringe advocates. my 2¢. --Ludwigs2 03:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd say both good faith and uncommon sense would suggest that "lunacy" references the Enneagram technique, not the practitioners. Yes, the tone is one of disdain, although I'd say it's well-considered and justified disdain. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:00, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Stephan, that's bull:

1. It is self-evident that the word 'lunacy' and its derivatives are always a reference to the cognitive state of the people involved. inanimate things (like techniques) can be useless, functionless, inadequate for a task, or etc., but lunacy implies that those who use those objects are mentally defective. You cannot get away from the fact that the phrase denigrates an entire group of people without sourcing or cause.
2. Misplaced Pages is not in the business of "showing disdain". It does not matter whether the disdain is justified, well-considered, based in fact, or can be rationalized in some other way; wikipedia adopts a Neutral Point of View which excludes editor's emotional value judgements about viewpoints. You yourself would argue vehemently against against allowing a fringe advocate to express the emotion of 'approval' for a pseudoscientific topic; why do you believe that the emotion of 'disdain' is more acceptable?

I don't know whether you are doing it intentionally, but you are presenting a prime example of the kind of myopic, self-entitled chauvinism that's a hallmark of Misplaced Pages science mavens. You and JPS are both demonstrating an inability to distinguish between the necessary encyclopedic act of maintaining scientific clarity on fringe articles and the unencyclopedic (and undesirable) act of biasing a fringe article with pure bigotry. But please keep talking; you're reinforcing my argument with every word.--Ludwigs2 15:46, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I have notified Joshua P. Schroeder, as Cla68 should have done. Cardamon (talk) 02:23, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

He ordered me not to edit his user talk page. Cla68 (talk) 06:16, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Why were you even following him to that page in the first place?   Will Beback  talk  06:37, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Will, that leading question doesn't merit the dignity of a response. What do you think of Joshua's actions as listed in the diffs section above? Cla68 (talk) 06:41, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

The first step in dispute resolution is disengagement. Reverting an editor and then complaining about them reverting you seems more like creating a problem than solving it.   Will Beback  talk  07:11, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Comments by ZuluPapa5

I am involved and mildly disturbed by Joshua P. Schroeder's actions. We were editing well together in WP:ACTIVIST. However, he went overboard in relation to Enneagram of Personality, when there was little substantial, if any, source support. This type of ideological wp:hounding is not necessary. It's up to ArbCom to determine if he requires a longer break. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:57, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Comments by WMC

JPS has made valuable efforts to clean up Enneagram of Personality, for example where he removes a paragraph largely sourced to http://www.enneagramspectrum.com. That source should not have been used, especially in a paragraph nominally about verification. The para was restored by User:Afterwriting saying Removed recent edits by activist editor with a militant agenda, then re-restored with Restored article from abuse. But whether you agree with JPS's edit (I agree with it, and re-made it) it clearly isn't abuse. It is notable that Cla has been so very one sided in this report. Also, Cla has failed to note that he is an involved party in any dispute over the page, having himself partially restored the disputed para . Cla's suggested remedy - topic ban from all science articles - is so ridiculously over the top that a mre appropriate result would be a ban on Cla reporting JPS William M. Connolley (talk) 10:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Comment by BorisG

The tone of JPS's comments may not be veyr diplomatic, but inappropriate tone hardly warrants more than a warning. - BorisG (talk) 12:00, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Commnet by Collect

I am bemused by a comment that JPS's actions on the Enneagram deletion are in some way to be commended. I ask that the entire deletion discussion thereon be noted, as the sequence of insulting edits by JPS amounting to ad hom attacks on me is revealing. Included are claims that Cla68 and I are in any way relsted in editing patterns is an indirect accusation of tag-teaming, an accusation that the two of us are active "in the same areas" (um -- 8 articles and one essay overlap out of over a thousand?), him using an IP address for multiple edits, accusing me of suddenly appearing on MfD (I would add that I have posted on well over 500 MfDs now, including 100 posts in the past three months, eliding only December 27 to January 7 for some reason), an accusation that I focus on only a "very few issues" on MfD, an accusation that saying I was off for Christmas was "twisting" anything at all. Then we have WMC, who is truly not a regular at MfD appearing with . Jps is uncivil, makes accusations of bad faith, and iterates such without compunction. I would suggest repeated incivility warrants stern action. As an aside - I have more article overlap with Jps than with Cla68! Collect (talk) 13:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Comment by un☯mi

From my reading of his past history, one of the main concerns and causes for sanction have been civility and matters of intellectual integrity.

Looking over his recent edit history there seems to be indication that he may be getting frustrated and acting out in response.

This edit at WP:ACTIVIST seems to support such an interpretation. Although, it could also be that the WP:ACTIVIST essay itself excited and incited this behavior. In any case, the effect is that he casts aspersions, alleges that editors are colluding against him, forcefully. As well as exhibiting a manner of discourse that seems to embody the very finest of battleground tactics, consistently insulting and obliquely ignoring attempts at discussion.

Unfortunately, such behavior seems to be generally accepted on wikipedia these days, but considering that the editor in question has repeatedly been warned and sanctioned for this kind of activity I can't see why this request does not have merit. It is my understanding that ScienceApologist has some value within "hard science" articles, unfortunately it seems that he would rather work in areas where he seems unable to maintain his composure. un☯mi 14:39, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Result concerning Joshua P. Schroeder

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Waiting for a statement by Joshua P. Schroeder (formerly ScienceApologist), but my preliminary opinion is that the request has merit and that, per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions and considering Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science#Motion to sanction ScienceApologist as well as Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#ScienceApologist cautioned and his block log, a lengthy fringe science topic ban is appropriate.  Sandstein  07:01, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
• I'm not really convinced. Sure, JPS's method of challenging that FAQ page initially was wrong – but he did have a valid case against it (the MFD for it has since gathered considerable traction; the emergent consensus is that the FAQ page had serious NPOV problems and should never have been created.) About the following talk page comments, I can see no big issues – this is what I call vigorous debate. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:44, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
• My tentative view is more aligned with Sandstein. This edit is, let's just say, unnecessarily inflammatory, and in a tone that is quite inappropriate for an FAQ page, and this blanking is not acceptable at all. If this were a new user, it might be understandable, but JPS is a highly experienced user who really should have known better. That said, when one looks at the underlying dispute, nobody really looks good, and I'm thinking that several users should probably be taking a break from this topic. However, my disagreement with NW on whether we are able to impose a broad, science topic ban notwithstanding, I'm not convinced that we should do it. T. Canens (talk) 14:18, 14 January 2011 (UTC)