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"Falun Gong and self-immolation" -- an original synthesis

This is just about the one section called "Falun Gong and self-immolation", which AnnaInDC removed. This section is a piece of propaganda; in wikipedia it's called a "Synthesis of published material that advances a position". The edict there is to "not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." and "If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources." This section hovers between legitimate commentary and quotes, and synthesis/propaganda in its descriptions. I will write sentence by sentence, referring to the text. I thought it would be easier to present the sentence in italics first, then a starred remark.

Falun Gong stated that there had been no incidents of self-immolation among Falun Gong practitioners in the world before 23 January 2001.

• Neutral statement.

However, the China Association for Cultic Studies published details of 3 instances of Falun Gong followers who they claim committed self-immolation prior to 2001, the earliest one in 1997, and 3 further instances said to have taken place subsequent to the incident in Tiananmen Square.

• Propaganda--making this juxtaposition is not okay. It's not a reliable source to begin with, anyway. facts.org.cn is the CCP's very own attack web site. If you know Chinese, check the virulent original. Want to know more? Try searching "凯风" "610" site:gov.cn. It's a propaganda website which has no credentials to discuss Falun Gong.

Academics such as Chang (1991), Rahn (2001), Lindsey (2001) and Li Cheng (1997) recognised that suicide is a traditional gesture of protest in China; ter Haar (2001) postulated that former Buddhists may have brought with them the "respectable Buddhist tradition of self-immolation as a sacrifice to the Buddha".

• Next it refers to academics who talk about suicide as "a traditional gesture of protest in China" (no mention of Falun Gong?) and ter Haar who postulates that "former Buddhists may have brought with them the "respectable Buddhist tradition of self-immolation as a sacrifice to the Buddha"." -- this is also totally irrelevant. That link is dead now anyway so we can't check, but there's nothing here that indicates any relevance to Falun Gong, so it's all a subtle original synthesis. By referring to a "traditional gesture of protest in China" and "former Buddhists" etc., it kind of implicates Falun Gong without doing so explicitly. A form of original synthesis. Update: the source was produced and it was shown that ter Haar mentioned Falun Gong specifically. My suggestion was then to expand on his analysis, since he's a recognised figure, and keep out the coatrack (sources above that make no mention or speculation of Falun Gong and self-immolation, or that don't pass RS)

"The Guardian commented that Li Hongzhi's new scripture released on 1 January 2001, Beyond the Limits of Forbearance, had confused his supporters.

• Next paragraph. I know Gittings is an old China hand. This could be attributed better though, and mentioned alongside other pertinent commentaries. These are cherry-picked opinions designed to give an impression, not a full representation of what commentators have said regarding whether it's likely they were practitioners or not.

Matthew Forney in Time magazine believed the message had spread into China via the internet and informal networks of followers, and reached more radical practitioners there.

• Forney in Time; this seems okay, but what it's building to and the context it's placed in make it problematic.

Falun Gong headquarters in New York admitted ten days after the release of the scripture that "certain disciples had some extreme interpretations we are going to resort to violence", and asserted that Li's message merely meant time had come to let the truth be known about China's atrocities.

• The "headquarters" "admitted" could be better attributed or ommited, since these aren't the terms used by the entity referred to. I would suggest that in this context, they are words to avoid, or weasely. If they don't add anything (do they?) then why not just say what the Falun Dafa Information Center said, rather than what Falun Gong "headquarters" "admitted"?

Jensen and Weston remarked it was clear from Li Hongzhi's messages that he advocated martyrdom over prudence, and that "if the Chinese authorities lit the fire, Li just as clearly fanned the flames."

• The use of this remark is misleading. The authors were not referring to self-immolation; in that remark they talk about "Li's speeches during the period" and how they are interpreted. They say that the incident itself "remains highly disputed", mention that Falun Gong thinks it a set up, and are inconclusive about whether they were "practitioners" or not ("Whatever the truth about the incident..."). But the way the remark is placed here, it makes it seem like the authors have come to the conclusion that the individuals in the immolation were Falun Gong practitioners. This is a distortion of the source.

David Ownby believes that the brief message was "difficult to interpret": it somewhat resembled a "call to arms" against what Li described as "evil beings who no longer have any human nature or righteous thoughts". Ownby said nobody he talked to had seen it as a "green light" for violent action; "ut a practitioner at the end of his or her rope in China could certainly see as an endorsement for martyrdom, and perhaps choose his or her own means to achieve that."

• This is not all Ownby said about it. Using the final remark from Pomfret to give it the flourish of finality violates NPOV, which says that all points of view should be described fairly, and the article not try to lead readers down the garden path of which is true and which isn't. But in this section the readers are introduced to a series of specially chosen quotes, some of which are relevant, others not, to create the impression that the opinion of commentators is that those who apparently immolated themselves were Falun Gong practitioners. The reliable sources which dissent (Porter, Schechter, the remarks in Beyond the Red Wall) are left out, and the section is wrapped in the package of "Falun Gong and self-immolation" which itself violates synthesis. Google that phrase and you'll find it's not a subject of scholarly discussion, but appears only on wikipedia. In all the literature on Falun Gong, this does not appear to be a subject of discussion. All the material included under this section here relates to whether people think the individuals involved were practitioners or not, not how or whether Falun Gong is related to or includes self-immolation.

Suggestion: scrap the section as it is and reintegrate the material that's directly relevant to the matter at hand into a section which explicitly weighs up the question of whether the individuals involved in the event were practitioners or not. Something like "Disputed identity of individuals" or "Speculations on identity" or whatever, something that is neutral and has the breadth needed to be able to give all the opinions available (and there are more than what is just here) on whether the individuals were "practitioners" or not. The current section doesn't cut it, and provides a one-sided, cherry-picked set of quotes and syntheses to conclude that they were practitioners, which is not a reflection of the body of reliable sources available. Further, the section title is a synthesis, and half the first paragraph is propaganda/coatrack combo. For Ownby's view, his book would be the go-to place. He's decidedly inconclusive on the matter.--Asdfg12345 06:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's the archived copy of the link from the WaybackMachine. --antilived 07:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. What Haar wrote was not only non-synthetic, it was highly relevant and centred on his work on the Falun Gong. Ohconfucius 07:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• This does not seem to be a discussion, but mudslinging dressed up as rational argument. There are some pretty stiff allegations being rolled out to discredit the contents of this article, including a lot which is directly out of the Falun Gong playbook but using WP's own policies and guidelines. This comes as no surprise, as I have become used to seeing these sort of tactics in Falun Gong-related articles. I'm just surprised it hasn't come along sooner. I'm not saying the article couldn't be more NPOV, but the changes inserted by AnnaInDC were clearly from the blinkered 'Falun Gong is Good and we can believe everything they say but we can't trust anything which emanates from the Propaganda Department' school of thought - this is testified to in the comments she placed in this talk page. I may have the highest edit count here, but the coherence of the text with the underlying sources was scrutinised by several editors highly skilled in NPOV matters. If this were a sincere discussion, I would oblige. I won't do it today, but I will take a look at the sources in the next few days. Ohconfucius 07:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• And now I see that the section has been completely removed - going a lot further than even what asdfg suggested to rework the material into the rest of the article. This is all very sinister indeed. Ohconfucius 07:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, super sinister. I think the devil himself might be behind it. I do not mean to have slung mud. That's not what I was trying to do. I looked at each sentence there and tried to refer to policy in pointing out where problems were. I don't think it's controversial to change the title of the section, or include all such relevant information elsewhere, along with a fuller account of the difference views. And by "fuller account of the different views" I do mean, like, all the different views (per RS). I read the ter Haar thing, it adds a useful perspective. Unfortunately we only get a soundbite of it that fits into the master narrative. That won't do. Someone like that is a good source, and should get more play for their piece of insight to develop a bit more. Basically, all I suggest is that things be unwound a bit, and the discussion (on the page) opened up. I mean that the question of whether they were Falun Gong practitioners or not, as it is addressed in the form of speculation/opinion by reliable sources (I'm not talking about Falun Gong video deconstruction or whatever), is an interesting and relevant part of this whole debate. The section that deals with this needs to be 1) longer and make better use of the reliable sources and points of view available; 2) not use an originally synthesised title like "Falun Gong and self-immolation" (search that, see what you find); 3) give more space for the themes to unfold and be explored, showing different sides (and a number of points of view are conspicuously missing from this analysis, such as that of Porter and Schechter) while concluding none, and giving the reader something they can make up their own minds about, rather than a pre-wrapped package. My analysis of those sentences is not meant to be an attack on you. I don't know why it passed NPOV, I won't speculate. I just pointed out the problems I saw when reading that section.--Asdfg12345 09:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I noticed this section basically repeated some of the same information in the "The dispute" section above (that's a good name for it!). This is my suggestion for the best way to resolve this: move what was not in "The dispute" up there and integrate it; purge the repetition; drop the original syntheses and coatracking (that is, remarks not explicitly mentioning Falun Gong, for starters); group the arguments by theme; give the big names more space to expound; bring in some more diverse viewpoints (I can think of four already: Porter, Schechter, the WSJ editorial called like "what is Falun Gong is a cult?" and Beyond the Red Wall. I'll paste three of those below); and call it a day. This is just a thought, I'm sure it's not perfect, but I think it avoids the danger of making a synthesis, repeating arguments, and presenting a one-sided view. Also, I believe all or at least most of the remarks, snide or otherwise, about the scripture, or whatever else, be put here, too, and given a chance to be aired. Including Ostergaard's "gift" remark later on seems a bit cheap. Those sort of comments need to stand up to scrutiny. (Look how Ownby presents the scripture, for example. He puts it in the section in his book before the one about the self-immolation, and makes clear that "the form taken by such apparent militancy, beginning later in the spring of 2001, was that of sitting in a meditative posture and "emitting righteous thoughts." He does not link the scripture with the immolation, and that is worth a lot. There should surely be a diversity of views, but wikipedia requires that editors take their cues from the best sources, and frame things in a way that reflects the most reliable sources; when there is a dispute about the interpretation of the scripture, I think all the disputes should be grouped, and aired in accordance with their prominence. Including an unusual or fringe interpretation of it outside the context of mainstream interpretations, for example, doesn't seem quite on point.) Just some extra thoughts. I am not trying to pick fights.--Asdfg12345 10:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I do not see how this section passed the NPOV requirement because the leading reference is not a WP:V source. There would not be a section without this reference: http://www.facts.org.cn/Feature/hand/Cases/200904/t90507.htm If you look at this website "http://www.facts.org.cn/", it is an "anti-Falun gong" website based in China. So, it's not a NPOV to begin with and not WP:V ("what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source"). Also, as mentioned below, that site is not from the "Cultic Research Institute". Whoever put this section together wrote "Cultic Research Institute" and added a propaganda link that has nothing to do with the "Cultic Research Institute" and does not even mention said "Institute". Also, if you use Chinese "media" sources, how can you validate that they are just not fabricated? China's media standards do not allow for WP:V Where are pre-2001 news reports of the Falun Gong pre-2001 self immolation incidents? Why did these 3 cases of Falun Gong pre-2001 self immolation turn up (in that link/ref) only AFTER the Tiananmen incident in 2001? I suggest that this reference to "facts.org.cn" should be removed, it does not appear to be legitimate data and does not meet WP:V standards. The section should be deleted unless convincing news reports of FG pre-2001 self immolation turn up. AnnaInDC (talk) 23:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Please see this synopsis in this link/reference from "The Human Rights Brief" (2001), a student-run publication of the Center for Human Rights and Humanitarian Law:

http://www.wcl.american.edu/hrbrief/09/1china.cfm "The Chinese Media's Propaganda Campaign against Falun Gong"

"While the government's campaign of violence endeavors to abolish the practice of and belief in Falun Gong, the propaganda campaign has been effective in gaining public support. The most common and seemingly most effective element of the propaganda campaign is recurrent broadcasting and reporting of the self-immolation of several alleged Falun Gong practitioners in Tiananmen Square in January 2001. By repeatedly depicting images of a young girl burning alive while asserting that Falun Gong preaches that such self-immolation will lead its followers to paradise, the Chinese government reportedly has succeeded in persuading many people that Falun Gong is an "evil cult." In response to the self-immolations, several unnamed Falun Gong spokespersons attempted to disassociate the movement from such events, expressing skepticism about whether those who set themselves on fire actually were Falun Gong members."

AnnaInDC (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

And on a lighter note, lets see what Ohconfucius has to say about removing data: "I do cleanups, and I'm not afraid to remove large quantities of text which are not relevant or compliant with WP policies and guidelines." From:http://wapedia.mobi/en/User:Ohconfucius :-)

AnnaInDC (talk) 00:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• I have difficulty believing it was not a sarcastic jibe at me, a subtle implication of hypocrisy, but I'll let it pass. Here is an example of my judicious pruning. Enjoy! Ohconfucius 02:59, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• The actual writing in the article is quite good. However, I don't understand why you or whoever initially put this article together picked the weakest points from the various references when presenting the Falun Gong side. It does not read as being from a NPOV. For example, what sticks out first is the intro's because killing is "considered a sin". People may disagree but I think that sounds like fluff if trying to debuke the self immolation as Falun Gong related and not listed as the main points by FDI as to why they thought the incident was staged. There are other examples of a shakey Falun Gong perspective in this Wiki entry. Mostly, my issue is with the WP:V of media sources originating in China or mimicing China's media coverage of the self-immolation. Unfortunately, for all we know, those people could have beed bribed, drugged so the burning didn't hurt and then swapped for TV interview purposes, and even killed after their usefulness was up. What happened to them after supposedly being "sentenced" to jail? Somehow I think no one will ever know.. AnnaInDC (talk) 05:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• It's not the 'weakest' point, by any means. Looking at the link you provided, it is the principal philosophical argument from the FLG. The others are interpretations of the circumstantial evidence which FDI used to discredit the event as a 'setup'. In any event, these secondary arguments are taken up quite well in the secondary sources, NTDTV and Danny Schechter, and thus it was preferred to leave these to 'do the talking', otherwise, there would have been needless repetition and over-reliance on a primary source. Ohconfucius 05:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
• I don't disagree with you about the reliability of the sources used in the article in the absolute, but they are "reliable" in the sense that they represent the FLG and the Chines government respectively - this is what WP:A and WP:V are about. Yes, I agree it is likely that some of the interviews and footages were shot with body doubles, and what is in the article is sufficient to allow readers to come to that conclusion too. Ohconfucius 05:24, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• That is not clear in the way this information and sources are presented. An entire section "FG and Self Immolation" is created based on data found in www.facts.org.cn, which is not WP:V. You (or someone) created a whole section based on a source that is not WP:reliable or WP:V. If the point is to document what the Chinese government has claimed it should be presented that way rather than using their unverifiable data as fact. The result is a creation of a stream of thought for readers based on potentially fabricated sources through WP:OR. Remember most people accessing the link will not spend this much time digging into the issue, carefully weighing all the evidence.AnnaInDC (talk) 16:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• I just checked the WayBack Machine and

this reference is not archieved there. There seems no way to determine when it was published as it is not dated. In my experience, references that can not be dated with non-WP:V data are not legitimate. AnnaInDC (talk) 18:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Anyway, who decides? I think that section should go unless verifiable news/data about self-immolation before 2001 is presented.The main reference from www.facts.org.cn does not hold up as legitimate and isn't worthy of being cited in what is supposed to be a fact based encyclopedia which readers can rely on. AnnaInDC (talk) 16:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Consensus decides on Misplaced Pages. And we have bad experiences of trying to reach consensus with pro- and anti-FG propagandists. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 18:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• Okay, well this reference used to create the "Falun Gong and Self immolation" section is not traceable or dated, and not found in the WayBackMachine. I fear to suggest that it's actual date is in the link at "200904", around the time this section "Falun Gong and Self immolation" was included into Wiki and the link was created for inclusion into Wiki? Please quell my concerns if that is not the case. Anyhow, it does not hold up as a legitimate reference for basic reasons: 1. it's from a propaganda website and 2. it is not dated. So, please remove the section, it does not meet the WP:V, WP:reliable, WP:NPOV, no WP:OR requirements.AnnaInDC (talk) 19:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

• So..I preened through the history and found that this strange reference was added on 10/11/2009 not too close to "200904". Maybe someone was just careless and did not inspect it carefully. Sorry. AnnaInDC (talk) 02:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note: if no cogent reason is given as to why the useful info in this section shouldn't be integrated into the "dispute" section, with the coatracking and irrelevant information deleted (as in, that which doesn't mention Falun Gong at all and only serves the original synthesis), and the reliable sources expanded on, then I'd suggest that be done? At the moment I'm not sure where the discussion is, but it seems that idea hasn't really been disputed, and the problems in that section will remain until its fixed. --Asdfg12345 15:12, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• • Who says the change is not disputed? There is more than one way of disputing something without edit warring, you know...

    Much valid sourced text was removed on the pretext that one of the sources was a 'Chinese government propaganda site' in absolute disregard to the my objection. It is just plain obscene to remove text just because it happens not to conform to the FLG view of the world. The text is as necessary and required as anything which came from any FLG source, so it's pretty clear to me the deletion was partisan and unwarranted. Ohconfucius 02:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, that note was basically an invitation to keep the discussion going, and to voice any complaints. I disagree with the simple removal of the section, as I said earlier--though it's not the same as vandalism. Please see the note on questionable sources, in RS: "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties." -- the website in question is associated with the work of the 610 Office, and is well-known as a partisan anti-Falun Gong hate website. Please explain if you disagree, hopefully bringing some evidence. The use made of these extremist sources in this article is troubling, and violates both NPOV and RS. It's quite unclear how that text (from facts.org.cn) is necessary and required as anything from a Falun Gong source; in the article currently, it's function is purely propagandistic. The CCP's anti-Falun Gong claims regarding this incident are outlined clearly enough in reliable sources; we don't have to rely on propaganda to explain these things, and the purpose of this page is not to vilify Falun Gong in the same words as the CCP's mouthpieces. All I've proposed is that the good information in that section be integrated into the "dispute" section above, and the coatracking, original syntheses, and sources that fail RS be removed. That's it. I wrote a detailed analysis of the paragraphs in question above, too, and the notes I wrote haven't been rebutted. I don't see why we can't just fix this and move on? It will basically just be an improvement of the page--I don't see the problem? --Asdfg12345 06:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, your disagreement with wholescale section removal didn't stop Anna from repeatedly reverting me, essentially refusing to accept my arguments and made me feel I was being ganged-up against and dragged behind the bike shed. It also reminded me of tactics once prevalent in FLG articles which I ranted about. The decent thing to be done was to simply leave it in its existing state and tag it {{NPOV}}, but oh no... I just didn't know what to say.

If it's any consolation: if I had the powers to edit, I would have reverted her. I think just above is the third time I stated direct disagreement with the approach of straight out removing the material, which as we've seen over these last few years, just antagonises the situation. I don't know what more I can do than advocate the best way I see of resolving it (as above). --Asdfg12345 06:49, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I know you weren't responsible for that rather aggressive, tendentious editing. I merely stated how I felt about being handled in that fashion. Ohconfucius 07:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• I was not handling you Ohconfucius. I simply edited the article in a way I thought was appropriate; by removing the "Falun Gong and Self Immolation" section. The only reference for creating that section is dubiously not WP:R or WP:V as it does not have a date, not found in the WayBackMachine, and is posted on a propaganda website (of a country with limited or no media freedom, i.e., they can just make stuff up. For those not upto speed simply google the words: China media freedom). Can we all agree that this reference is not suitable for an encyclopedia? Also, the section as whole comprised WP:OR based on this "faulty" reference. According to Wiki policy and your own words on your user page, there is nothing wrong with cleaning up articles by removing large amounts of text, something you do yourself when you see fit. Please advise this new editor what would you have done if you were my shoes? AnnaInDC (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

It may help to focus very specifically on the content issues at hand, and not on the personal ones. Another reference discussing the concept of that section was the ter Haar one (and while not nearly as weighty as would a published text, like a book, or what have you, I guess it's something). But one reference does not a section make; the rest of the information was not about that subject, and ter Haar's observations could just as well go into the "dispute" section to avoid the whole POV fork etc. They are, after all, just his speculations. I don't think even Professor ter Haar should get his own section to ponder on this topic, when everyone else has to squabble over their views in the "dispute" section. AnnaInDC, a more conciliatory approach would be to go ahead and try to incorporate the information into the "dispute" section, and see how it goes. 2 cents. --Asdfg12345 00:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

As I said above, the decent thing to be done was to simply leave it in its existing state and tag it {{NPOV}}, tag the link with {{dead link}}, and then start a discussion here, but oh no... Removing the whole section on the premise you stated above is downright tendentious editing. Ohconfucius 01:48, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• There is some confusion here. The {{dead link}} should properly go in for current ref.3 used several times in the "Incident" section. I can try to do that. The removed section was one created from WP:OR and a faulty article from a propoganda website. I don't think it's proper to just create sections based on made up material. AnnaInDC (talk) 03:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

References

I am seeing a problem with some of the references used:

1. This article "Tiananmen tense after fiery protests" has outdated links and can not be found in whole on the internet. It is used extensively in the Incident section. Trying to find the aricle by searching the title it only comes up on wiki mirror websites that have the same broken links. See Ref. currently in the article.

2. At least (currently removed) can not be found anywhere else (on a reliable news source) and does not have a publication date. www.facts.org.cn seems to be an anti-Falun Gong propaganda website and questionably un-WP:V, WP:R and not NPOV. I do not think www.facts.org.cn should be relied upon. AnnaInDC (talk) 21:29, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Just regarding 2, facts.org.cn is verifiably and obviously an anti-Falun Gong propaganda site. Moreover, it's connected with the work of the 610 Office, as demonstrated in the link I posted above. I don't think anyone is disputing that. facts.org.cn should not be used in wiki. --Asdfg12345 14:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• So is there going to be participation from other people in fixing this? If the references are failing, then parts of the sections need to be redone based on reliable available references. Do I need to do this alone? I read through the history and parts of it are like a fight scene from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. I've thought about this and hear the need for just sticking to the bare bone facts but also realize that determining the facts about this incident is not simple because no truly reliable reporting source was at the scene and could investigate. Also, I noticed a reference used/discussed in the past regarding the U.N. determining that this self immolation was a "hoax" and wonder why the "evidence" in that report was good enough for the U.N. and not good enough for Wiki editors? Hence, that reference was removed. Does anyone care to answer that before I start making changes that other people will not want to accept (thereby wasting everyone's time). Also, if the self immolators were fake Falun Gong practitioners, quoting them over and over as if they are speaking on behalf of Falun Gong does not makes sense and is misleading. They are saying some really weird things that I bet neither Christians, Buddhists or Falun Gong practitioners, regardless how "spiritual" their beliefs maybe, ever would say to media. Those are immediate issues that I see with the Wiki entry. Comments? AnnaInDC (talk) 20:57, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

No, that is not how it works. Unfortunately, even news organisations remove news articles after a time; the world has no accepted way of ensuring the durability of their links. Webarchive is not infallible nor does it have universal coverage of all available websites. There is no rule which says WP articles must be rewritten because links stop working. It is not an excuse to sanitise just because it doesn't tell the story you want. Ohconfucius 03:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• I'm actually refering to this: "what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source (see below), not whether editors think it is true" from WP:V. Expiring links to documentation does present a conundrum because when links stop working, readers can not verify at all (regardless of whether it was a reliable source or not). I think if another reliable reference supports the same story, it should be used instead. Otherwise, I would think that the section should be rewritten with the verifiable/reliable references available. This is how it seems to me since WP:V is probably the number one issue for an encyclopedia. Maybe Wiki needs a new rule/policy for handling expiring links. AnnaInDC (talk) 04:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

But the stories of news orgs can be tracked through other systems, like LexisNexis for example. facts.org.cn isn't a reliable source anyway and shouldn't even be in the article. That's the actual issue. It's not a reliable source. The CCP's perspective should of course appear, and be explained clearly, but when it comes to narrating the events, how they unfolded, and other pertinent details, propaganda sources should not be used for that information. Those sources are for stating the CCP's view/propaganda, not for informing the reader of any facts about the case. There is a clear difference. I can make a post on RS board about this if this argument is disputed. --Asdfg12345 15:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Sanitisation of Liu Chenjun's fate needs to be fixed

{{3O}}

Sorry, I'm a bit cynical about this by now. I do not think it's proper when editors scrub out the ugly details of the CCP's repression when adding information to wiki. Liu Chengjun is supposed to have been "sentenced to prison, where he died 21 months later" -- but did he just suddenly "die"? The sources referred to say he was either reportedly "beaten to death" (USDOS: "In December, Liu Chengjun, sentenced to 19 years in prison in March 2002 for involvement in illegal Falun Gong television broadcasts, was reportedly beaten to death by police in Jilin City Prison.") or tortured to death, in the far more gruesome Falun Gong account. You can also take He Qinglian's version of it, on my userpage, which says he was tortured to death. Full paragraph from Ms. He: "I must also express my admiration for the men and women within China who have never compromised with the regime. Coming from China, I know all too well the price paid by those who refuse to compromise, including being isolated by intellectuals who fear associating with “heretics.” This book names and pays homage to many Chinese journalists who have been imprisoned for their efforts to expose corruption. These men and women of conscience are like a lamp with an ever-burning flame. Others have devoted themselves passionately to furthering freedom of speech, some even paying with their lives. Liu Chengjun, a Falun Gong practitioner, was one of them. On March 5, 2002, Liu and some friends managed to intercept eight cable television networks in Changchun City and Songyuan City, Jilin Province, and televised a program entitled “Self-Immolation or a Staged Act?” exposing the Chinese government’s cover-up of its persecution of Falun Gong and the staged immolation the government claimed was the action of practitioners. Liu was arrested and subjected to 21 months of torture that led directly to his death. He paid with his life, but thanks to his sacrifice, many people learned the truth about the government’s persecution of Falun Gong." Can someone please fix this, and note that the man was reportedly subject to 21 months of torture that lead to his death? --Asdfg12345 14:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The last two sentences in the article are not reliable sources and should not be used in the way they have been. I am baffled as to how this sort of vile propaganda can be used in this way. There are dozens of reliable sources saying that the CCP went on a propaganda bonanza with this event, whatever the nature of it. And CCP media and anti-cult GONGOs which play a vanguard role in the persecution (see the CECC's 2009 report) are not reliable sources on the subject. That's a real violation of the principle of NPOV, RS, and undue weight. Forget about whether the woman was a prostitute, this is smuggling propaganda used to sustain a violent campaign of repression into what is supposed to be a respectable encyclopedia. And those are not just my words. I'm paraphrasing the words of scholars, who describe the persecution and propaganda campaign in similar terms. I simply do not see the need for this. --Asdfg12345 14:27, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• A little bird who is a journalist who knows someone who is a journalist that later investigated told me that Liu Chunling (i.e. night club worker or prostitute with the 12 year old daughter who also died) was likely involved in organized crime and was the "Jack Ruby" of the self immolation incident. I thought that was interesting in light of the fact that she was the first to die and on the scene (perhaps from being hit on the head). This is just conversation as there are no resources to support this. AnnaInDC (talk) 21:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for that little bit of sarcasm. The Liu Chengjun hacking part of the article is but a small epilogue, and any expansion would be a coatrack. Of course, the mention that somebody dying in prison would generally sound warning bells, and the link which serves as a reference can lead the reader if he/she wants to follow that part of the story. Ohconfucius 03:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no reason to delete two words "from torture" or "was beaten to death..." or whatever it is, given that each time the Liu Chengjun case is mentioned, this information is mentioned. Why should this information be sanitised? --Asdfg12345 15:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course there is. This is mere allegation. To put that in would be to go down the slippery slope of coatracking, because you would then need to write a whole section on the respective arguments from both sides. Ohconfucius 01:44, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Would it, though? I think the argument from reliable sources is the main one relevant here. The key point is that when his murder is mentioned, it says he was abused, beaten, or tortured. I haven't yet seen a reliable source that mentions his treatment beyond that. So I don't understand why when we mention it, we remove that uncomfortable fact? the CCP isn't a reliable source on the treatment of its political prisoners, as you might know. In an article on him, it would be well and proper to discuss their perspective (of course), but in a short note, I believe it should be presented in the same as as it is by reliable sources. Please explain how you diverge. --Asdfg12345 01:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I think we should firmly bear in mind what the central subject is. If you wanted to create an article about Liu Chengjun, or more broadly the hacking incident, then fine. Because there would be space to develop this. I feel that adding 'death by torture' definitely imparts a NPOV concern not entirely related to the self-immolations which would pollute the central subject. Ohconfucius 02:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I can see your point enough to let it stop here. I'd go out with a last emphasis that in the sources above it's also mentioned as an aside (the two USDOS and He Qinglian), and they are not partisan sources; this supports the idea that it's not biased to mention that he died from something rather than just "died." But there are bigger fish to fry, so let's forget this. Thanks. --Asdfg12345 03:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I really don't know that's right. The guy was tortured to death for hacking about this incident. That's a big deal, and says so much about this case. At the least, it shows the importance the CCP attaches to pushing its side of the "truth" of this story, which is relevant to readers of this article to more fully understand the context in which the claims are being made. It's relevant, sourced, and informative; I don't believe it breaches NPOV, because I have not seen any other source dispute the claim that he died from torture/abuse. I'll put a third opinion tag here. This is minor, I know, and I won't begrudge consensus on this, but I just thought about it again and do actually think it's important enough to spend a few minutes rigging up a third opinion template.--Asdfg12345 03:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• What are the alternative narratives on how he died, and who are they sourced to? Do any sources express doubt about how he died? --JN466 13:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

From the sources available (two USDOS, one He Qinglian), he died from abuse, beating, or torture. It's a difference of a couple of words to include this info; I don't think we're looking at an WP:UNDUE violation here. Regarding what other sources have said on his death, I am not sure. --Asdfg12345 12:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I can see merits in both your arguments. As a compromise, how about quoting the relevant sentences from the US DOS state reports in the ref note? That is

• "In December, Liu Chengjun, sentenced to 19 years in prison in March 2002 for involvement in illegal Falun Gong television broadcasts, was reportedly beaten to death by police in Jilin City Prison." in the 2003 report, and
• "For example, in 2003, Falun Gong practitioner Liu Chengjun died after reportedly being abused in custody in Jilin Province." in the 2005 report. --JN466 16:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

So, do you mean the inline text should remain vague on his cause of death, but that the cause, according to USDOS, be given in the ref note? Just want to be clear on what you mean. If that is the suggestion, I think it's better than nothing. If that's the idea, I disagree though, given that in the three sources available it's mentioned directly alongside his death (that he died from beating, torture or abuse, depending on which source), but overall I appreciate your giving it the time, sharing the view, and it's not something I think would warrant any further dispute. I just don't get why wiki shouldn't talk about the issue in the same way as the reliable sources available have. In particular, the USDOS reports give that small level of detail in a report about the whole HR situation in China. This is an article about the incident that he was risking his life hacking into a TV station about. In terms of scale, we are two steps more zoomed in than the USDOS report, but still give less detail than they do? I just don't think it's logical. But yeah, I'm not going to go on about it. I've voiced my disagreement, and I do appreciate the time taken to look into it and give an attempted compromise. --Asdfg12345 06:12, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I've added a couple of China state refs, added "under disputed circumstances", and provided quotes from the US DOS and the Chinese Embassy in Canada. --JN466 11:45, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. As I said, I know you are attempting to present both sides and make neutral improvements. I wonder if this is what is meant by NPOV though. The RS page has a section on questionable sources: "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties." I will just ask a question: since it's obvious that the CCP in this case has a poor reputation for checking the facts, no real editorial oversight (except the central propaganda department), and expresses views that are widely acknowledge as extremist against Falun Gong (like, "they should be crushed like rats crossing the street"), how can this source be used for claims against third parties (Liu Chengjun)? In particular, they are matched against a highly reliable source like the USDOS. There is no parity there. I wonder what your understanding of this is, and how it matches up with the policy elaborated above. --Asdfg12345 00:54, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

If a dictatorial regime puts a government critic into a mental hospital, claiming they were sick, WP reports that that is what the regime said. This does not mean WP endorses the regime's opinion that the person was mentally ill, or that WP uses a questionable source for statements concerning the person's mental health. In my view, such an assertion says much more about the regime making the statement than about the person in question: but that is my judgement as the reader. --JN466 22:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Yep, obviously, and agreed. My concern is with the technical matter of how many words are accorded each side in wiki and in those sources; the three sources mentioned above don't give such detail to the CCP's view about Liu's alleged health problems--but in the edit you made, those alleged health problems were elaborated on. I would have thought a few words like "The CCP claimed that Liu died from health problems" would be sufficient. This is my last input on the matter. You've done a good job.--Asdfg12345 00:54, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

About the background section

I believe the background section suffers from problems of original synthesis, undue weight, and cherrypicking sources. Some questions I have are how the notes from Time are relevant as background to this event? I checked all the references in that section, and as far as I can tell, the only thing that links Li's remarks with this event is the note by Gittings: "But some observers believe it is possible that the five were driven by desperation - and confusion about Mr Li's "new scripture" - to attempt suicide." -- does that warrant the great emphasis on them, and all the information we are presented with about Li's other remarks? Notably, in Ownby's book there is not much emphasis on linking the scripture with the immolation. I would suggest that that is a good indicator of how much emphasis wiki should give to it. Unfortunately, this looks like an instance of selected quotes arranged in a way that supports a particular narrative that is not explicitly articulated in any of the sources quoted. I just mentioned how the only thing linking the scripture to the immolation is the note from Gittings (actually from Jensen and Weston as well) -- but is there anything at all linking Li's other remarks with it? If not, it's unclear how they belong in the section that is a backgrounder to the immolation.

I find that the first paragraph is much the same; a novel narrative. This particular expression of the lead-up to the persecution is not found in any single source, so it's a kind of original synthesis in itself. Further, even if it was in a source, it still wouldn't be the most neutral, accepted, or common way of discussing it. I would contend that Sima Nan's remarks about Falun Gong are barely relevant for the Falun Gong pages anyway, given how little they are mentioned in reliable sources, let alone weaving them into a narrative here. So much attention is given to what Falun Gong is alleged to have done, or what Li is alleged to have said, whereas in a third party analysis of most of these events, the focus is largely on what the CCP has done. One important question is about where this article is situated; I mean, if it had to be categorised, what is this article a subtopic of? I think if we did that analysis, it would become clear that in the overwhelming number of cases, this event is a referred to in the context of the propaganda campaign waged by the CCP against Falun Gong. That's the context this event is situated within, quite beside the question of the identity of the participants. I would first like to know whether this proposition is disputed, and if it is, then do some source-mining to find out which way the event is mostly discussed. Let's put it this way: if the event is mostly contextualised as an example of Falun Gong's apparent suicidal tendencies, or Li's encouragement for immolation, then it would make perfect sense to emphasise the aspects that have been emphasised in the background section. If it is mostly framed as an example of state propaganda (and yes, I believe it's quite indisputable that it is), then the background and other elements of the article should reflect this. Does this make sense? I'm making this argument and using contrarian logic to try to show, or explain, why I believe certain information is out of place here. As long as there is no explicit link between Li's remarks and this event, I believe their inclusion here is a subtle sort of original synthesis, irrelevancy, and undue weight. Further, given this, I don't think there is enough acknowledgement or emphasis on how this event was used as a piece of propaganda. I mean, the current mentions are a poor reflection of the body of sources which have situated it in that context. Again, for now what I'm saying is argumentation and proposition; I will be happy to test these theories with research.

Notes on how the Jensen and Weston source has been used, and suggestions for how to improve accuracy: 1) it is written fully as "Falun Gong" not "FG." 2) There is a paragraph break before "Such flames..." 3) The next sentence at the end is "Whatever the truth about the incident, it clearly marked an important public relations victory for the Chinese state within China, as many Chinese who had remained neutral to that point came to share the authorities’ view that the Falun Gong was indeed a dangerous heterodox sect." I contend that at least "Whatever the truth about the incident..." is relevant and should be tacked on. If the rest is too long, just use ellipses. The note of inconclusiveness is important, in my opinion. --Asdfg12345 15:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Given that no one has responded to this for close to two weeks, I would suggest the items suggested there are actionable by anyone. --Asdfg12345 01:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

An article built on CCP propaganda

A lot the central material in the current article is CCP propaganda, presented without context. Sources such as Pan, Schechter, Ainsley, Brady, Qinglian, are all either kept out or sidelined. Even the perspective of Ownby is distorted.

Images directly taken from footage described as "engineered" by sources such as Schechter, are presented, with captions that lend legitimacy to it. I cant help but say that this is but the product of pure propaganda and spin. Any attempt to improve it or add objective sources in is immediately countered. I'll point out how much of the academic material was blanked out in a series of edits and how academic sources such as Schechter are sidelined as "subscribing entirely to Falun Gong POV."

CCP Propaganda, and images drawn from it, are not a legitimate material for an encyclopedia.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 07:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Lemme give you the eyebrow on this: you are linking to a section that Asdfg threw in a few weeks ago, and are suggesting that the people who do not share your views get paid for their edits? (just making sure I understand this correctly) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 08:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

If I remember right it was I myself who "threw in" the section. All I commented on was how much the article draws from CCP propaganda. I did not imply that people who do not agree with my perspective get paid. I did not analyze the history of edits and was assuming this kind of disruption could only owe itself to IP edits. All that I intent to convey in the post above is that I have deep concerns regarding this pattern of removal of well sourced, centrally relevant material, misrepresentation of sources such as Ownby, and an almost WP:RS status provided to xinhua and CCP propaganda( the current article builds itself on Xinhua propaganda presented for fact) . Anyway, just focusing on the content and sticking to WP guidelines is all thats needed to fix these issues. I apologize if my comment came across as against other editors.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 13:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Good. That's all I wanted to know. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

A quick note that Schechter isn't an academic source. Of course, it's fallacious that he be excluded because editors don't like his POV, but no one was there to stop it from being deleted. I share the concerns about how openly CCP anti-Falun Gong propaganda is used in the article as though it is a regular source. I wouldn't accuse anyone of any ill intentions though. Cut and summarise, and attribute the CCP claims to reliable sources as far as possible; their view is obviously a significant one, but shouldn't be used as a factual one like it is. I also think the background section has problems, as I wrote above. At the same time, it would not work to turn that section into an oppositely weighted coatrack full of detailed information about the horrors of the persecution. I wrote above that in the vast majority of sources this incident finds its context within the propaganda campaign against Falun Gong. That's how it's usually construed. I think the background section should introduce the fact of the persecution, talk about the propaganda campaign, and to the extent that reliable sources have discussed it, only then talk about how Li's teachings were allegedly related to the incident. But on that last point, no evidence (in the form of reliable sources) has been presented for it. It's just a splicing of several different sources. Ownby's text does not draw a link between these two things at all (i.e., an escalation in Li's public statements and the immolation), so it's quite unclear why we should. In fact, I don't think we should unless it is directly textually supported. And much of that is to do with the "dispute" rather than the "background." Two cents.--Asdfg12345 13:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I surveyed the use of Chinese state sources used in this FA. At the time of writing, they are the following:

• : used five times, four times with attribution, once with corroboration by Western source.
• : appropriately used (one use with attribution, one use without attribution for stating that two protesters were not tried).
• : appropriately used (for date when Chinese government ban started).
• : appropriately used, twice with attribution, once with corroborating source from Human Rights Watch.
• : used with attribution.
• : used with attribution.
• : used with attribution.
• : this is a Reuters report reproduced on a Chinese government website.
• : used with corroboration by Western source.
• : used with attribution.
• : used with attribution.
• : was used without attribution; attribution has now been added.

I don't see a problem with these uses. --JN466 14:21, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, gentlemen. This is an article that's been thoroughly reviewed by the wikipedia community and it is a featured article. It is as close to neutral as we can make it. No one's buying into your advocacy rants. Please quit the complaining to advance your agenda. Colipon+(Talk) 15:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Being used with attribution of the point of view of CCP propaganda is different from being used with attribution like any other source, as a piece of factual information. The two are vastly different. The article in many places uses such sources in the second way, when they should only be allowed to be used in the first way, according to the RS policy. These are extremist and propaganda sources which are associated with a persecution; they do the propaganda for it. They're not normal sources, and can only be relied upon to transmit the CCP perspective. I wouldn't suggest they be deleted entirely, but use restricted to one section which outlines the CCP's point of view. In reality though, it may be possible to present the CCP perspective without having to resort to primary sources. In any case, having a subsection that outlines the CCP's claims would solve the problem. Sprinkling the propaganda sources throughout the article creates problems for readers. Actually, I just mean they should not purport to represent facts. If it's appropriate to mention the CCP perspective in several places, then do that. But there is a big difference between using them as facts and using them as opinions. There was also a lot of information deleted from the page, too. I'll find an older version of the article and paste some of the deletions below, for anyone who dares to add back in. --Asdfg12345 02:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Please, stop wikilawyering. Merits of sources should be judged individually and with regards to their usage. There is nothing wrong with adding sources from the PRC government, provided they're attributed correctly. Especially considering that they're an involved party, a blanket ban or dismissal is against the spirits of WP:NPOV.--PCPP (talk) 14:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I hope it was clear that I did not suggest a blanket ban or dismissal of all CCP sources. I said they should be more clearly identified as such, and not be elevated to the place of facts, as they are frequently in the article. And this can be in various ways, including using propaganda in an official-looking table, or weaving it among factual accounts from journalists, etc. Both those things can and should be avoided. the CCP view will still be aired, but it shouldn't be in a way that gives the unsuspecting reader the impression that what they're reading is not state propaganda against a persecuted group.... (unless that's the whole point? No, I don't believe it).--Asdfg12345 00:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• PCPP and others, I've followed the discussion and see how this is a difficult issue. Here is what I think: You wrote, "erits of sources should be judged individually and with regards to their usage. There is nothing wrong with adding sources from the PRC government, provided they're attributed correctly." That sounds very nonbiased and academic but, how are you going to correctly distinguish true from propoganda sources in this case? I do not know how old you (or other editors here) are but in the former Soviet Union a few decades ago, there was a media/paper called "Pravda", which translates as "Truth". It became a laughing stock amongst Russians and to this day. Do you understand? So, my point being that in places like communist countries where there is no media freedom, presenting their side is not trivial as one really does not know what one is presenting; it could very well be something blatently made up (i.e. their propoganda). So, some ideas on how to avoid this would be great. AnnaInDC (talk) 06:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

You act as if the PRC is the only source producing propaganda, and that everything FLG and the US tells is the absolute truth. To assume that because China has limited media freedom, all of its sources can be blanketly labelled as "propaganda" is absolutely dishonest and goes against the spirit of NPOV. Propaganda goes both ways, and what is "truth" and "propaganda" is subjective, as such it's up to the reader to decide.--PCPP (talk) 04:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

that's wrong. This is what the WP:RS policy is for. Please read it. And if there are other disputes, they can be taken to the NPOV noticeboard. --Asdfg12345 06:03, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I made a few small changes based on the discussion above. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 00:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I looked, and agree. --Asdfg12345 00:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I just popped in to see what was going on here, and was not surprised to still find the very same verbose wikilawyering, but ramped up a few notches; I just find myself being 100% in agreement with PCPP three posts above. I'd also point out the recommendation by asdfg to "including using propaganda in an official-looking table". Then our friend Olav comes along and scrubs out information in the table so cited to state media, to which asdfg utters his agreement. I rest my case, and I think I will stay away for quite a while longer. Ohconfucius 16:49, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Ohconfucius, can you please explain your rationale for this edit? Thank you. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 13:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not want to actively participate in this discussion, but I will follow it, and I want to offer some initial questions and observations.

Basically the complaint seems to be that putting Xinhua's claims about the identity of the participants in a table makes them appear to be facts, or at least, more factual than claims that were part of a propaganda campaign. It is noted that above the table it states 'according to Xinhua', but the concern seems to be that the form of the table itself conveys a certain legitimacy, and therefore undue weight.

On this point, I would agree with Colipon who noted on the main discussion page that anything from either Falun Gong or the CCP should not be presented as factual (unless, presumably, it had third party support). So I think it needs to be clarified why propaganda is being presented as factual information in this case.

The other point is the CCP's anti-cult GONGO. Olaf and Asdfg12345 have argued that this GONGO is not a reliable source. Again, I think Colipon made the salient point: these sources can represent their own views (given certain conditions), but usually not make statements that are to be taken as facts about third parties. In this case, the GONGO is used to give a quote from a Falun Gong practitioner. That seems to be overstepping the stipulation about not making claims about third parties.

I will probably not say more than just the above. I wanted to articulate the arguments raised above in a clear way. I could not find the refuting arguments above, or I would have restated them here as well. I look forward to see how this is resolved. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 14:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This is easy to resolve. I can understand the concern about the prominence of these claims in the table - it simply makes them appear more factual. At the same time, the CCP's claims in this regard should be noted. So let's just put the claim that the individuals were practitioners in the prose, rather than the table. That should make everyone happy. —Zujine|talk 04:53, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

That's probably a fair solution. I am glad that someone is willing to challenge the entrenched anti-Falun Gong orthodoxy that seeks to own the page and define the terms of legitimate debate. The point is not to remove this information from the encyclopedia, but to make sure that when people see it, it doesn't parade as fact. The only facts here are who said what. But jazzing it up in a table is like promoting one set of facts against another. Or shall we have a table based on information from Falun Gong sources? I think Zujine's change is suitable. And it's high time the propaganda at the end of the article was removed. The anti-cult group is not a reliable source on what Falun Gong practitioners are alleged to have said. If the propaganda claims of the CCP need to be included in some other way (like some phrases: "China believes the despicable immolation by "Falun Gong" shows the world the despicable nature of this mortal threat to socialism with Chinese characteristics" or whatever garbage they say), then fine, but not in the form of quotes from victims, I'd say. Doing that is propagandistic. I have more points:

• The neutrality of Reuters on a topic like this is questionable. In articles such as 'Senior party official expects Reuters to depict China fairly' the CCP makes clear that Reuters is in its pocket when it comes to reportage coming from China. (for example, Li Changchun, the propaganda chief in charge of vilifying Falun Gong, says: "Reuters should be a bridge in helping the world obtain a better understanding of China and report China as it is," - I think we all know what that is code for). I would suggest that for neutrality the fact that Reuters was the only agency allowed to do the interviews be noted, along with its cooperation with the CCP. This could be done in a single sentence, and would offer readers the background they need to evaluate the claims they are about to read. Note: this is not trying to keep any information out. It is trying to provide appropriate context.
• What is the relevance of the shoeshine man case? This article is about the Tiananmen Square self-immolation. The only connection is the tendentious claim by the Independent linking them. Does that warrant a long paragraph, based on one opinion of one journalist? I don't think so. That isn't an "aftermath" by any means. Again, there is absolutely no real evidence that he was a Falun Gong practitioner: a suicide note found by the police? Obviously they made it up. Unless some real evidence is presented for this, it's obviously POV-pushing, trying to link immolation to Falun Gong with no real evidence, quite typical of the Chinese media. Unless its inclusion can be properly justified, it should be removed since it is straight out of the CCP propaganda narrative that tries to connect immolation with Falun Gong. It's an association fallacy.
• the top image is biased. It also immediately sets the tone of the article to adopt the CCP's narrative. Encyclopedia's should be written with a mind to how readers are likely to interpret the information they are presented with. Consciously presenting information in a way that accords with the CCP's propaganda is not neutral reportage. I suggest some other image, or another way of resolving it. Over and out. --Asdfg12345 06:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll leave others to come up with something about Reuters - I don't know if it would actually be original research to include the kind of note you suggest, Asdfg12345. In a similar way to your desire to include the Luo Gan/He Zuoxiu connection on the Falungong main page, this seems to be aimed at changing the impression of the reader through background information. The point is that in neither this case nor the other does the source you refer to make clear why the connection matters. It seems like a spot of 'synthesis of published material that advances a position'. If you had a journalist or scholar saying that Reuters did these reports out of a desire to ingratiate itself with the CCP, the argument would make more sense.

But I agree on both the 'shoeshine man' and the top image. The first seems to make a tendentious argument with weak information, and the second is quite similar to how the CCP has presented this case.

I also wonder whether that whole box itself is biased, since it assumes the event was not staged (i.e., it's a 'civilian attack' of 'attack type: self-immolation' etc.), when really that is what the whole dispute is. In both cases one could imagine the presumed Falungong equivalent: an image of the woman being struck in the head with the cudgel, and instead of a 'civilian attack' box it's a 'Communist political hoax' box. Homunculus (duihua) 00:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• Looking again, the only problem I have is how the box says 'attack type.' Whether it was an attack or a hoax is in dispute. If it said something neutral here, I wouldn't have a problem with the box, which I think adds a professional touch to the page. Homunculus (duihua) 00:50, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not here because I'm watching the page, but because of this deletion warning on my talk page. Would you care to reinstate the image, at least somewhere in the article? I fail to understand why one image is removed because of the comments of ONE devoted Falun Gong lobbyist, while others images - there are a string of them - taken from the same source are still used in the article purported to show a different view. This is wholly inconsistent and in my view violates WP:NPOV. Ohconfucius 01:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

(←) Even Reuters is a lapdog of the CCP now? Give me a break. Colipon+(Talk) 12:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it's typical of these transnational capitalist organisations - they get married to state capitalism when doing business in repressive countries, sacrificing the values that allow them to exist in the West. In any case, it's not an original synthesis if the claim is not made explicit that they reported the alleged immolation in a way to please Beijing. As long as a simple statement of background fact is made, that should be fine. It's merely a question of relevance. And it is of course relevant when the propaganda taskmaster has such a cosy relationship with this media organisation. Suppressing the information about Reuter's relationship with the CCP would be wrong. See 'Information suppression', which includes: "Concealing relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value." I propose a simple sentence like: "Reuters has a cooperative relationship with the propaganda department of the Party, and was the only foreign media group allowed to interview the victims." That is simple, factual, and relevant. —Zujine|talk 12:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

This would seem completely contradictory to the fact that many Chinese (and the Chinese government) criticized Reuters during events such as the Tibet uprising in 2008 and the Olympic Torch Relay. If Reuters was "warned" of this by Li Changchun as early as Falun Gong, perhaps they wouldn't have been so adamant to continue criticizing the Chinese gov't until 2009? Just my two cents. Colipon+(Talk) 13:10, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

It's obviously a more complex situation than that; if Reuters did everything the same as a CCP media outlet, no one would find them credible. I think the point Zujine is making (and I agree with it) is that it would be noteworthy to mention that they share ties. To the extent that those ties influenced reporting on this incident, everyone can make up their own minds. I'm under no illusions about the integrity of a company like Reuters, though. --Asdfg12345 01:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

• I think it is absolutely wrong, and typical of the fallacious arguments which are employed here to rule out or impugn sources unfavourable to FLG, to seek to remove or otherwise cast doubt on the Reuters coverage. The conditions, namely that they are to report only under supervision and without questions, the alleged participant in the hospital room, are clearly stated in the article. Although we know that the Chinese censor and stage-manage, this is something universal to most political parties, and happens almost everywhere, even in the hallowed West. I defy anyone who can show me just one political event that is not stage-managed. People are quite capable of making that judgement for themselves whether the PRC/CCP are manipulating, based on the reported circumstances - which, quite frankly, are more transparent that most reports coming from anywhere else even from in the free world. Ohconfucius 01:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, "anywhere else in the free world"? So China is free now? This point of view explains a lot. I see absolutely nothing wrong with mentioning Reuter's relationship with the CCP. As you say, people can make up their own mind. --Asdfg12345 01:49, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Recent changes

I made a couple revisions to the lead, both to attempt to shorten the length and better capture the nature of the dispute surrounding the event. I may make more changes in the morning, but here is a summary of the edits I’ve just made:

• In the first paragraph, the article presented Falun Gong’s narrative as centering on the fact that the teachings forbid suicide. This is far too simplistic a representation. Not only do they say they don’t endorse suicide, they go much further to conclude that the event was staged for the purpose of inciting violence against them and elevating support for the persecution policy.
• Added in the finding by Philip Pan that the two deceased self-immolators had never been seen practicing Falun Gong (contrary to Xinhua accounts)
• Added statement by IED
• Added two sentences that speak to the impact of the event on the persecution, including the Washington Post article about the sanctioning of torture in the aftermath of the self-immolation, and the fairly substantial increase in reported Falun Gong torture deaths in custody.

Generally it's quite problematic in this article that the CCP account gets an inordinate amount of play (so many references are to official sources), and yet there is no earnest attempt to represent the problems identified by Falun Gong sources. It's all either CCP or weird back-and-forth between scholars; like, in the 'dispute' section, the third and fourth paragraphs should be dramatically cut. They don't even really belong in that section. That section should describe a dissection of the event and other views. Not sure what to do about that in a hurry, but I'm first bringing the problem here for discussion. If there are issues, let's talk them through. I don't suppose these first round of additions will rankle anyone, though. They were sorely overdue. --Asdfg12345 07:48, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

No problem? Let me add some more background. --Asdfg12345 16:24, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I haven't looked at this article in a while, but I'll dive into it for today. Given the controversy that has surrounded this topic, I suggest you proceed carefully. Regarding the dispute section, I don't have a serious problem with it as currently presented, but you are right that it does not present the substance of detractors' arguments; rather, it is just a back-and-forth between scholars and journalists concerning their assessments of competing claims. It certainly makes sense, then, that the article should include a section that presents the challenges to the official narrative, given that the official narrative is given substantial space, and Chinese government sources are cited at great length. I am not willing to make these changes myself, and don't have sufficient knowledge of the subject. One thing I would like to do, however, it contribute to the background section. Currently the section does not do anything to describe the suppression of Falun Gong, yet this event can only be understood in the context of the suppression. If the protesters were Falun Gong aspirants, then they self-immolated to protest persecution; if they were not, then the event was staged as part of a persecution, and either way, the event was publicized and propagandized to build support for persecution. So I will do that. Homunculus (duihua) 16:33, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I had not looked at this article in a long time, and now I know why. The whole tone of the piece is about validating the official narrative. Most information not in line with that has been suppressed. I find it extraordinary. Here I will number my diffs and explain my changes in each one. Note that I number the diffs, and each change will be explained by a letter, such that if there is a dispute with my interpretation, please refer to it like 1a, 2c, etc. This is the quickest way I can think of to identify the specific points of dispute and discussion. I leave this as a holding note while I assemble that explanation, could be another 30 minutes. It's expected, of course, that anyone disputing my changes actually identifies the specific points they dispute and writes why, since I have taken the trouble to do the same. The only grounds we have for a common working environment is this kind of process. Let me pause here, make a few more changes, and write up my explanations. I will include a bit more of a preface setting out the context of what we're dealing with before diving into the specific issues. Thank you. --Asdfg12345 17:02, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

As mentioned, here are my explanations. They are thought out. Each time a piece of red appears I have lettered it, and each number corresponds to a specific diff. I did it this way because it would have been cumbersome to include only one change per diff, but if we want to do that, that’s fine. I don’t mind how we structure the change and discussion process, I just thought this the simplest. My basic motive here has been to add in more facts about what we know--the vast majority of the changes are along those lines. In some cases I noticed pieces of information that did not belong: they were excerpted from various places and arranged here to further the state narrative. That is not in line with Misplaced Pages policy. This happened in the background section, for example. It was even worse before, as I recall. I've attempted to straighten that out, too. Lastly, I ask that the discussion be conducted strictly according to good manners and wiki policy. Please explain which parts of my changes are disagreeable and do a better job. I'm editing totally in good faith, and may well have made a mistake somewhere here. I'm sure to have overlooked much, at least. I await some sincere interlocutors.

1. 1 A) Add key claims to lead. This is a crucial part of the whole story and cannot be left out. The event happened within the context of a massive persecution and this should not be forgotten or moved to the side. B) The video was not “questioned” by NTD, it was dissected in slow motion. I don’t know why we would want to change that. C) The fact that the protesters were identified not as Falun Gong people by Pan is crucial and should be higher in the piece. This is the kind of info suppression that needs to be cleared away. (Note that the diff here is a bit messy, because paragraphs were moved down. I will do my best to avoid this in future, because the changes are thus obscured. But the rest of the information was not altered much or at all.)
2. 2 This language was provocative and nonsensical. Let’s just state the facts as they stand and not use hyper-language to score propaganda points. Facts, facts, facts. In a story where so much information is deliberately obscured, the best service we can provide readers is to simply state the known facts in a clear manner.
3. 3 The video footage was deconstructed, not questioned.
4. 4 This is not ad ad-hom attack. This is a known fact about this poor woman that should not be obscured. It goes far to the point that she may not have been a practitioner. Information that doesn’t agree with the state narrative should not be suppressed.
5. 5 A) Remove scripture, add persecution background: the relevance of the scripture to the protest has been severely overplayed, and including it so prominently in the background is highly tendentious. Strictly speaking it is not part of the background, it is merely a small part of the interpretation of a few observers. If there’s someone with a background in Chinese religion (not gittings) who makes this link, that could be discussed, but at the moment we have primary research and a tendentious link, it looks quite poor. B) “broke the news”? They merely told their version of events, in fact. C) Properly relaying what Falun Gong press statement said, it was more than the originally emaciated recap. D) Note what the Laogai Research Foundation actually said on the topic, which was more than what they were quoted as saying. The background here is key. E) Porter’s views are important for understanding and context. No clue why they were left out…
6. 6 This is the deconstruction of the footage. Not sure why it was left out. People need this information to make an informed choice about what happened. You’ll notice that my changes are along the lines I mentioned earlier: adding facts, being circumspect about opinions. Facts count for so much more in such a contested case, and the purpose of the page should not be to make people think one way or another about the incident, but provide what information is required for people to make up their own minds. My edits aim to help with this difficult task. So it is with noting the inconsistencies found by the False Fire documentary. These were actually in the article unproblematically some time ago. I don’t know why or how that changed.
7. 7 A) Falun Gong leadership expected people to demonstrate? That is a wildly inaccurate use of language. I have made it say the truth, just that practitioners protested there. B) What relevance has Li’s statement on supernormal powers to the incident in question? C) What relevance has Li’s “marked change in tone” after the persecution to the incident in question? None, apparently, and therefore the information has no proper place here.
8. 8 A) The first change is less radical than it looks. It is merely to condense the different views to a simple paragraph. They can be elaborated on in all their erudition later, but the lead is not the place for that, per WP:LEDE, which explains clearly how leads are meant to introduce the topic and set out the main controversies, rather than delve into details. B) Remove the graf on the fate of the survivors, this is all from propaganda sources and is not strictly relevant to the actual incident itself. What the CCP did afterwards can be explored, sure, but it is not the key point of contention. The inclusion of this information here just reinforces the official propaganda narrative, in fact, and serves no other purpose. C) I simplified slightly that there was an enormous campaign of propaganda to follow, using various sources. This is a pretty crucial piece of the puzzle. D) Add two NYT sources. E) Sima Nan’s criticism was not notable at the time (I think TSTF went through this a lot on the talk pages a long time ago) nor is cited here; secondly, the picketing was peaceful and this should be acknowledged. F) Note Jiang set down the order. G) The massive propaganda campaign part is important as part of the background to what happened. Again, an important fact that was somehow dismissed in place of speculation. This, like all my other edits, have attempted to correct the balance between opinion/speculation and fact/what we know.--Asdfg12345 17:53, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

We tried working on this simultaneously earlier, so I decided to go elsewhere and wait to see what you produced. I removed a couple things ("enormous" propaganda campaign, and the WOIPFG analysis in the background section). I will go through other edits more carefully later. In general your changes are reasonable, but I would suggest there are at least two outstanding issues of considerable significance. First, I see that you made an attempt to clean up the lede, but it's still quite long. Second, I have a much bigger problem with this article in that it contains so much original synthesis of so many sources, and I fear that the selection of quotations and opinions given by third parties may not, in fact, be representative, but instead that third parties have been quoted selectively to advance a particular narrative. For instance, Ownby is quoted as saying that it's plausible that the self-immolators were practitioners. I checked this reference, and found that he describes the alternative (that the participants were paid actors) as being equally plausible, and observed that it is impossible to know for sure what their identities are. To resolve this issue, I suggest that we find a credible source or two that clearly and cogently articulates both sides of this story, and use that as a guide to explaining the dispute. A clear version of the counter-narrative does not exist in the current article. Homunculus (duihua) 18:59, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference Porter was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Ownby, David (2008). Falun Gong and the future of China. Oxford University Press. pp. 215–216.
3. Staff and wire reports (24 January 2001). "Tiananmen tense after fiery protests". CNN. Archived from the original on 22 February 2007. Retrieved 9 February 2007.

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