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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by InkSplotch (talk | contribs) at 18:18, 10 February 2011 (→Category:Persons convicted of fraud). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

9 February 2011

Category:Persons convicted of fraud

Category:Persons convicted of fraud (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Simply put, there was absolutely no consensus to delete.

Four suggested merging to Category:Fraudsters, eight said keep, and 6 suggested a reverse merge from Category:Fraudsters. Closing admin suggested that no-consensus should default to the position before the category was created, which is unsupported in policy.

(This category was originally created because I and others objected to categorising people as "fraudsters" simply on the basis of convictions for expenses fiddling.)

I have discussed this with the closer see User talk:Black Falcon#Fraudsters. He has declined to undo the closure, but at the same time he's indicated he's willing for someone uninvolved to review it and reverse if they disagree. That leaves as with an admin neither standing by nor reverting his closure.--Scott Mac 23:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• Overturn deletion. Besides the fact that there was a consensus to keep the category there is absolutely no logical explanation for why a "no consensus" in this case should result in anything but the usual "keep". In the afore mentioned discussion linked to by Scott, I explained in more detail (to the closing admin) why I believe that is the case.Griswaldo (talk) 00:54, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• Overturn I would really appreciate a good explanation of what exactly the closing admin was thinking. This only reinforces my perception that CfD is under-watched and tends to have particularly bizarre outcomes on far too regular a basis. Jclemens (talk) 08:17, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• Overturn (no consensus defaults to keep). Where there are possible significant real world concerns, the participants consider that aspect. There was not a consensus that there are significant real world concerns requiring deletion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• Endorse, with a side order of "is this the right venue?"

  I certainly believe that "no consensus" in a deletion discussion should default to keep, and I've said so very vocally on a number of occasions, but I don't think the discussion we're considering was, precisely, a deletion discussion at all. Despite the header, the discussion was actually about whether to rename a category. As such it should have been treated not as a deletion discussion but as an editorial discussion that was closed by an administrator. Per policy, where the administrator finds no consensus in such a discussion, "restore status quo ante" is absolutely the right outcome. I find Black Falcon's reasoning impeccable and wholly agree with it.—S Marshall T/C 16:52, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

While some people were suggesting that the "fraudsters" category be renamed/merged, and I'd certainly have been happy with that outcome - others were suggesting that both be kept (and that's fine my me). The point is that the discussion was all over the place, and the status-quo was for both categories to exist (not for a deletion or merger that has no support) and there to be a later discussion on merging this (which I agree does need a consensus, and is an editorial judgement). Upholding the status-quo did not demand deleting anything.--Scott Mac 17:07, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• As a point of fact, the discussion was NOT about renaming a category. The discussion was about a new category that had been created, and the nominator suggested deleting it and merging all contents into another category. Black Falcon also repeated this misrepresentation of the situation in his explanations of why he did what he did. There was no proposed rename. Some commentators suggested a reverse merge, which might be like a rename of Category:Fraudsters, but keeping vs. deleting the category being discussed here had nothing to do with "renaming" anything. Can we please get this straight. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• Overturn Deletion A close needs to reflect the views of the participants in the actual XfD, not be a deus ex machina pulling an opinion out of the air. The close would have been an excellent and well-thought-out vote if it had been cast during the discussion, but it has no connection to the actual discussion that took place. There was no consensus for deletion, but there was also no justification for "no consensus". Alansohn (talk) 16:56, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• overturn to no-consensus There was no consensus about what to do with this. There was considerable feeling that a merge was appropriate, but no agreement on what way it should go. (I have my own opinion, but I cannot claim there was really consensus for it more than any of the other proposed solutions) What is now needed is some discussion for how to deal with this, at a workgroup or the talk page. Closed on the basis that the discussion had not yet been closed after even after an extra 7 days & that some conclusion was necessary, but if there is no consensus, either the discussion continues yet further at the xfd, or we keep the status quo at xfd and the discussion continues elsewhere, or later. That no consensus defaults to keeping the status quo is a basic principle of deletion processes., DGG ( talk ) 17:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

• Overturn as flawed implementation. In the deletion discussion, a fundamental premise of the conflict was "is cat:Fraudsters the same as cat:Persons Convicted of Fraud". The closure acknowledges a lack of consensus on this, however as implemented it presumes the premise is true. If they are the same, then reverting to a 'prior state' is just a matter of removing the newer category and reverting any articles that used it to the old one. However, if the premise is false, this action is actively deleting a unique category and miss-assigning articles to an improper category. This close, then, was more a !vote than an impartial decision (unintentionally so, I believe). A true 'no-consensus' close, to me, would have been to leave things as they were with two separate categories. Rather than reopening the whole discussion, I'd simply find another admin to take a stab at reconciling the multiple options (I suspect a merge or reverse merge of some sort will ultimately be it). --InkSplotch (talk) 18:18, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Hamumu Software

Hamumu Software (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Notable company, deleted for no reason. 192I (talk) 02:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• No it isn't and no it wasn't.

  Hamumu Software is a Californian organisation of about two or three employees that has won no awards and received no attention from independent reliable sources as defined by Misplaced Pages. It isn't notable. The reasons for deletion were well explained at the AfD discussion and noted by the administrators who deleted it subsequently, and they are quite normal reasons to delete material from Misplaced Pages.—S Marshall T/C 12:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• Userspace draft time Previous AfD looks solid, but almost 4 years ago. It's possible to recreate a new article in mainspace, and I'd recommend that if an experienced editor who knows notability and sourcing expectations were to do it. If not, then drafting an article in userspace seems like the more appropriate response, just so the new article doesn't get dragged into AfD immediately based on a fixable problem. Of course, if notability is still not establishable, it should not be moved back to mainspace.... Jclemens (talk) 15:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
• Endorse. 192I should first get a little editing experience, and only then consider pushing for content that the community previously rejected. Show us that you are not a single purpose account, here solely to promote your own interest. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:17, 10 February 2011 (UTC)