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I will continue to expand this page later tommorrow...much more to come. (Gibby 06:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC))

Underground economy

"The theoretical model of a large-scale free market economy does not occur legally, however the underground economy may be seen as an actualized free market economy."

"May be seen as" is pretty weaselly. A windmill may be seen as a giant waving its arms. Can we cite someone as claiming this? I have my doubts: "free market" presumably means "free from coercion" not just "free from taxes". In my experience, black markets are seldom free from coercion. - Jmabel | Talk 06:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Underground economy and black market don't have the same connotations. Underground economy is a market where trade simply takes place without government taking a cut. Hiring a worker without filing out government forms and paying him in cash, garage sales, selling stuff on Ebay, etc. RJII 16:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Again: do you have a citation for "may be seen"? - Jmabel | Talk 22:59, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

neutrality

The neutrality complaint is stupid. The arguement being made is that it presents the "libertarian view point" on markets. I disagree, I think that by reporting what Hayek and Friedman state about the market is accurate. They, afterall, are economists. Discussing how market transactions are voluntary does not mean that social market theorists are any less valid. Likely they would agree (otherwise they'd get rid of the market and be called Socialists!!!!) There is a section that discusses market externalities, a section that discusses market participation and a section about the free market. There is not much to complain about but the factual reporting of market operations. (personal attack removed) (Gibby 22:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC))

The neutrality complaint may be valid, but no-one can say whether it is or not because the user has not brought their issues to the Talk page in accordance with established procedure for using that template. I've notified Nikodemos on their Talk page that they need to engage on this Talk page in debate about specific NPOV issues. If they choose not to I will remove the template in a few days. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Reporting what economists Hayek and Friedman say about market economies is not POV or non neutral. (Gibby 02:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC))

The neutrality complaint was strange per se: I've altered it slightly, so that it does not read "gives to much weight to the views of economists, for example...", which implies that giving weight to the views of economists is a shocking thing. That said, I'm assuming you've seen through the grammar. --Nema Fakei 02:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It was someone elses complaint. They had "free market advocates" which is actually a POV representation of them since Hayek and Friedman are by their job definition, economists. When you state the plain truth "the overwhelming vies of economists, such as Friedman and Hayek" well you just wonder exactly why they are commenting on something so related to economics like markets. The original complaint is bogus. Its made by a non-market believer who really hates anything market especially if it argues free market. (Gibby 02:59, 27 February 2006 (UTC))

It is difficult to identify specific problems within the article, because it is biased to such a degree that it requires a complete rework. Half of it is dedicated to "criticism of alternatives" (which seems a convulted way of referring to advocacy of market economics), while the rest of it presents very little information explaining how a market economy actually works. As it stands now, this article only discusses free market capitalism, which makes it redundant with the capitalism and free market articles. Furthermore, Milton Friedman is cited 32 times. The only other economists mentioned in the article are F.A. Hayek (five times), Adam Smith (twice) and Hernando De Soto (once). I find it particularly outrageous that neither Ricardo nor Keynes are given so much as a nod. In total, there are 47 paragraphs in this article, and Milton Friedman's views are discussed in 24 of them. That means the article is roughly 50% Friedman and 50% all others (and those others share Friedman's POV to a large extent). -- Nikodemos 04:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I propose that we start reworking the article from the ground up; much of the information about Friedman's views should be moved to the Milton Friedman article or Chicago school. -- Nikodemos 04:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

See Criticism_of_communism for an example of Nikodemos's work. Very well sourced, but reflects his personal biases. To me, that article doesn't read like an objective encyclopedia entry, and I'm worried about what's going to happen to this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.250.214 (talk • contribs)

I did not know I was so interesting that I have anon users watching me. But, in any case, if your only objection is that you do not like my writing, then you are more than welcome to help edit this article yourself. In fact, I do not look forward to the daunting task of re-writing it, and I could use all the help I can get. -- Nikodemos 13:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It was me (I'm logged in now - and didn't know how to sign a comment). I don't think it needs re-writing. I agree with Nema Fakei. StringCheesian 19:44, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

You believe it is appropriate to dedicate half the article to the views of one economist, and much of the other half to economists who agree with him? I am not saying we should include prominent discussions of the views of Karl Marx or other opponents of the market economy; I am saying that we should give equal weight to economists who advocate a market economy but see it differently than Friedman (e.g. J.M. Keynes). -- Nikodemos 20:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I just don't want to see this article brought down to the level of Criticism_of_communism with respect to tone (should be informative and neutral, not persuasive and apologetic/defensive) and prose. I'd try to fix the other article, but I'm not a very good writer. As well read as you may be, neither are you. I'll admit you're right, Keynes deserves to be mentioned and the article is little heavy on Friedman. But only a little too heavy - shouldn't Adam Smith's school of thought figure prominently? Econ 101 textbooks (at least mine anyway) start with him in Chapter 1 and call him the father of modern economics. Why not just move the stuff that belongs in Milton Friedman and add a few things about Keynes and Ricardo? I don't think your problem with the article justifies a rewrite. StringCheesian 22:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Adding things by Keynes is fine by me, but don't delete the Friedman stuff. They sections including information from Friedman and Hayek are merely reporting their thoughts on how the market works. Keynes won't say much different other than you need alittle government spending in contractions. Ricardo won't add much Friedman has already talked about and neither will Adam Smith, though having Smith is great. Niko just wants to delete Friedman because he conflates Friedman with libertarianism rather than understanding that Friedman is an economist who just so happens to scientifically prove that markets work better than any alternatives and that free markets are the best form of market economies. Thats it. He wants to delete this information because he disagrees with it. BUT REMEMBER NIKO...we are only reporting what Friedman says. But seriously, I think your scared people might start to see how rational his thoughts really are and just might start agreeing. (Gibby 13:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

Alternative reading

I would not necessarily say that what Nikodemos is (/should be?) disputing is an issue of neutrality, but a question of relevance. This article should not even be discussing the pros and cons of a market economy (which would belong in a criticism article or, better, articles on variant theories), but rather discussing the definition of a market economy: What does it entail? What can be part of a market? What does and does not count as a market economy? To this end, we should represent the influences of such as Friedman and Hayek (being careful to avoid adopting their POV) more than Marx, just as the latter would be expected to feature heavily in Communism. However, we should also avoid defining a 'Market Economy' purely by how the theorists want it to work: markets have been around before the theorists, so this article should be describing market economies, not just 'Theories about Market economies' - those belong in their own pages, along with the pros and cons of each. So no, I disagree with Nikodemos' idea of NPOV by balancing two POVs: we should strive to make this article descriptive instead of prescriptive.--Nema Fakei 15:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that was my intention, and I agree with you. As I noted above, the current article presents very little information explaining how a market economy actually works. Much of the Criticism of alternatives section should be moved to the Milton Friedman article (which, by the way, does not currently do a good job of explaining what his views are - thus, by moving the text there, we would be killing two birds with one stone). Allow me to quote the opening words of every paragraph in that section:

There are generalized criticisms of alternatives to market oriented economics...

Milton Friedman argues...

Prices and wages

Microeconomists and free market scholars such as Milton Friedman have written extensively...

Freidman does believe that workers who take risks deserve more pay than workers who do not...

Markets and cooperation

Friedman also believes...

Profits become the motivator for aligning diverse interests and diverse people for a single goal.

International cooperation

Friedman and Hayek both believe...

Friedman states, "International free trade fosters harmonious relations among nations that differ in culture and institutions"

Friedrich Hayek discusses the market alternative and its negative effects on cooperation

The role of private property

Free market critics such as Friedman also argue...

Externalities

Milton Friedman does not deny that there are market externalities and offers many solutions...

"Participatory" capitalism

Milton Friedman asserts...

He believes...

Markets and poverty

One of the more major complaints of markets and capitalism is a belief that they create exploitation of labor and poverty. Milton Friedman notes...

Poverty is often conflated with capitalism and with marxist notions of class conflict. Free market economists such as Milton Friedman and Hernando De Soto make compelling arguments...

Many non-market oriented alternatives to market arrangements, and even social-market proponents criticize market economies for their income inequality. Friedman and many other microeconomists note...

Free market solutions to poverty

Free market economists argue that...

Many neoliberals attribute poverty to insufficient protection or recognition of property rights.

Hernando De Soto argues that...

Economists such as Milton Friedman argue that...

Others have argued that welfare perpetuates poverty by providing incentives counter to wealth creation. Proponents of the FairTax and economists such as Milton Friedman favor eliminating welfare programs...

Social market solutions to poverty

Advocates of the third way believe that there is a legimate role the government can play in fighting poverty.

A better name for this article in its current state would be Milton Friedman's views on the market economy. I think that much is clear. Let us start talking about the ways we could rework it. Nema Fakei brought up a number of useful starting points. -- Nikodemos 20:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This is discription of how markets work, who better to report from than two nobel prize winning economists who know market operations better than many others. If you want more on your prefrences, find sources, cite them and add them. Don't bitch about cited Friedman and Hayek material you disagree with. You are starting to irritate me with your lazy deletion censorship-like methods. (Gibby 13:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

At the moment, it's a description of the arguments for markets. It's like having an article on cars that spends most of its time talking about "Volkswagen argues that cars are good because they make travelling easier, while Ford that cars are a statement of freedom; environmentalists question", rather than something like "a car is a motor-driven vehicle, usually powered by petrol". I agree, there's a place for an article (or a subsection) "Criticism of Cars" or something, but what we want is quotes about how markets work, not describing people's judgements about them. At the moment, all we've got is "Why Friedman thinks what he does", which is not the same as market economic theory. Don't misunderstand: I would like to see lots of quotes from Friedman et al if possible: but preferably technical quotes about the mechanics. I hope this helps you understand what I'm saying. --Nema Fakei 16:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

And it does describe how the market works. I can't help it if you can't put it together. If you are in fact a leftist of some sort, it is very likely you would not understand or want to understand if Friedman himself explained it to you. (Gibby 13:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

Everything that is in the market economy article is necessary to describe how a market economy opperates. The reason why others may not think so is the reason why they likely don't believe in market economies...ie they don't understand these little tid bits that are reported here from published figures (Gibby 00:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC))

"Everything that is in the market economy article is necessary to describe how a market economy opperates."... There's a vast section called "Criticism of alternatives": are you saying one of the driving or enabling forces of a market economy is that alternatives don't work? That "it is very difficult and inefficient for central planners to guess or approximate values and demand for goods and services" is a technical description of the way a market operates? It may just be me, but " it is better to let prices float freely by allowing the market to determine them" seems to be advocating, not describing a market. --Nema Fakei 03:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

where does this go?

- Motivation to manufacture goods at least cost could lead to business firms making production decisions with little regard for safety of workers or the quality of environment. - Reduction in Quality of products: The quality of products can fall down as the producers have to reduce cost. - It does not guarantee full employment for workers. As to reduce cost the company can fire off workers anything they want according to their self made rules of temporary employment. - Growing social and economic inequality (the rich get richer and everyone else gets poorer). Because those with more money also start a disproportional political influence, which they use to make still more money. - Reduction in social benefits and welfare. As there are no social safety, for jobs etc. People feel unsecured about their future. - Good are produced in excess as the poor workers are not paid well due to market competition. So they don’t have the power of money to buy commodities in a large number.

I can't tell if its serious or vandalism. At anyrate it looks like a complaint and would need its own section. Anyone want to clean this up, add citations, eliminate the OR and add it back in? (Gibby 13:54, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

Looks honest (I'm guessing an inexperienced editor by the format), but I don't think it really belongs in the article any more than advocacy.--Nema Fakei 03:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't see advocacy, I see reporting Friedman's views...which happen to be one of the most credible educators on market operations alive today. (Gibby 03:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC))