< Misplaced Pages:Arbitration | Requests

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Requests for amendment

Use this section:

To request changes to remedies or enforcement provisions, for example to make them stronger or deal with unforeseen problems.
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How to file a request (please use this format!):

Go to this request template, and copy the text in the box at the bottom of the page.
Click here to edit the amendment subpage, and paste the template immediately below this box and above any other outstanding requests.
Using the format provided by the template, try to show exactly what you want amended and state your reasoning for the change in 1000 words or fewer, citing supporting diffs where necessary. Although it should be kept short, you may add to your statement in future if needed as the word limit is not rigidly enforced. List any other users affected or involved. Sign your statement with ~~~~.
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1. The name of the case to be amended (which should be linked in the request header),
2. The clause(s) to be modified, referenced by number or section title as presented in the Final Decision,
3. The desired modifications to the aforementioned clause(s), and
4. A rationale for the change(s) of no more than 1000 words.
Requests from banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Committee.
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Request to amend prior case: Pseudoscience

Initiated by Tijfo098 (talk) at 20:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Case affected: Pseudoscience arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

"Deprecation by ScienceApologist" 11a) Using strong negative language, ScienceApologist has deprecated a number of persons and their theories "well-known woo-woos", The Electric Universe (book) "discredited" "Completely unauthorative, argumentative"
"Discretionary sanctions" 12) Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to pseudoscience, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Tijfo098 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Maunus (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

(Maunus notfied)

Amendment 1

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions
I'd like the wording to be modified to include not only statements that some branch/discipline is pseudoscience, but more explicitly include equivalently derogatory labeling such as "cult".

Statement by Tijfo098

It seems trendy to now bash on scientific theories and disciplines using language not directly covered by the pseudoscience arbitration case, but which have effectively the same meaning or worse. 20:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

To SirFozzie: because it's not clear (to me) that a WP:AE request would be considered in scope. The Electric Universe (book) is deleted now, so I have no idea what that was about, but I suspect it was a more wp:fringe topic than evolutionary psychology. On the other hand it's clear that many anthropologists (Maunus identifies himself as being one) do not hold EP in much esteem. For instance Thomas Hylland Eriksen writes in his book What is Anthropology? that "Most anthropologists are unenthusiastic about evolutionary psychology." (p. 138); and then describes some "academic turf wars". Is this sufficient to put the matter in scope of the Pseudoscience case? 21:00, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

For instance, Mathsci below writes that it doesn't fall withing that scope, so a clarification seems useful. I'm merely seeking a clarification for future events like this, not seeking to have anyone sanctioned in this particular incident, which appears resolved already. 21:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Another, kinder(?) commentary of User:AndyTheGrump is comparing EP with homeopathy, again without providing a source . The current Misplaced Pages article on Homeopathy identifies it as pseudoscience and quackery. Does this type of "pseudoscience by comparison" declaration fall under the remit of the Pseudoscience case? Tijfo098 (talk) 01:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Also, since some here make allusions to my motivation, my only recollection having participated in that article is responding to a RfC where I was in agreement with Maunus that sourced and attributed criticism of EP should be included, even if it sounded extreme. 01:50, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Maunus

I am not going to defend my use of the word "cult" which was clearly uncivil and uncalled for regardless of whether it is included in any sanctions, and for which I have already apologized. I would like to note that this happened after a protracted dispute in which I have been repeatedly labelled as an "anti-EP'er" a "marxist" and a "cultural determinist" by the user to whom the comment was directed in spite of having made expicit statements that I am neither of those. It does not seem fair to me to single out my example of incivilty for an ArbCom remedy when other editors on the page have been repeatedly breaching WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL and WP:TALK. I apologize for my uncivil language, and accept any sanction that might be deemed justifiable as long as the transgression is seen in its proper context of prolonged incivilty by Memills (talk · contribs). ·Maunus·ƛ· 20:52, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

For the record I do not consider Evolutionary Psychology to be a pseudoscience or a cult. I consider the particular editor to be unable to understand that there are different perspectives on the discipline and that not everyone who disagrees with some of EP's conclusions do so out of spite or for political motives. This obviously does not extend to all EP practitioners. It is correct that many of EP's critics have been anthropologists, but many have also been philosophers or psychologists from other subdisciplines. ·Maunus·ƛ· 21:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

User:Leadwind has repeatedly referred to anthropology as being the carrier of "Marxist ideology" does this mean that his statements fall under the scope of Eastern Europe arbitration?·Maunus·ƛ· 01:21, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Statement by completely uninvolved Mathsci

This request seems absurd and WP:POINTY. It is related to a current thread on WP:ANI on Evolutionary psychology (EP) in which both named parties are participating. It is an unnecessary escalation of something that has been clarified by Maunus there (e.g. where Maunus also makes an apology). This is forum-shopping gone wild. Although EP is regarded by some as controversial, it does not fall within the realm of pseudoscience (as far as I am aware). Mathsci (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Tijfo098 has explained some of his motives for tabling this amendment here. Mathsci (talk) 21:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Homeopathy had its own case and rulings Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy. Mathsci (talk) 09:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Statement about EP ResidentAnthropologist

Extreme EP theories tend to conflict with other fields of scientific knowledge and thus receive accusations of pseudoscience. Moderate theories of Evolutionary psychology have substantial recognition as scientifically valid theories and are used in the cross-disciplinarily in fields involving human evolution and Human cognition. The most vocal proponents are those who hold the extreme theories that rule out cultural elements and are the source of conflict between Anthropologists and EP. More Moderate Evolutionary psychologist who recognize the significant interaction between culture and the mind tend to work pretty much in harmony with Anthropologists. Two of my mentors are both Cognitive Anthropologists who work closely with Evolutionary psychologists so we must be careful when saying that they are competing disciplines 15:57, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Amendment 2

Link to principle, finding of fact, or remedy to which this amendment is requested
Details of desired modification

Statement by your username (2)

{Statement by editor filing request for amendment. Contained herein should be an explanation and evidence detailing why the amendment is necessary.}

Statement by other editor (2)

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

I'm a bit confused. They may be using alternative language, but why wouldn't what your suggesting fall under: that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. I would think accusing other editors of being members of a cult would fall under the above? SirFozzie (talk) 20:44, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
I have reviewed this request and don't see a need for an amendment. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Request to amend prior case: Arbitration enforcement appeal: Littleolive oil

Initiated by olive (talk) at 07:28, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Case affected
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

Littleolive oil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Ban review which only affects Littleolive oil

Amendment 1

Review of topic ban . I was directed to this page by Shell Kinney. I'm pretty much in the dark as to how to file this per the format of this template, but Shell assured me this was the place to do it. Please move anything around that is out of place and if I need to add of fix anything please let me know. Thanks.

Statement by olive

Although, this ban expired yesterday, I’d respectfully like to request a review anyway. My concern at this point is with the blot on my record as an editor. Real life issues (including a wedding and a funeral) have made it difficult to focus on this until just recently, in part because this isn’t easy to discuss.

I was given a 3 month topic ban as the result of asking for a warning for User:Jmh649, per the TM arbitration, for removing with out prior discussion content with 5 reliable sources that were WP:MEDRS compliant, and three further reliable sources (total of 8 reliable sources). When I asked for clarification or reasons for the ban since no evidence or diffs had been given, and while I’ve edited multiple TM articles; I was directed to one thread in a discussion, on one article, the TM article. For this apparently tendentious discussion I was given a 3 month topic ban. The thread Nuclear Warfare pointed me to is actually two separate discussions in one thread, and not one long drawn out discussion. This is the end of the first discussion , and the beginning of the new discussion .

In the first of these discussion, issues centered around a highly contentious sentence that had been moved back into the TM article lead by Doc James. (His claim by the way, that this is either a consensus version or was the conclusion of an RfC is untrue). In the second discussion, I had moved content into the article per agreement, that had included the same highly contentious sentence now back in the lead of the TM article. . I didn’t think that it was appropriate to have the same sentence twice in one article, and still don’t. It’s just poor writing. I revised the sentence to be more specific to the sources than the more general, summary-style version in the lead, and also assumed this was a more accurate compromised version of the sentence that would be fine with everyone. When the discussion on all of this seemed to be going nowhere, I decided to leave the discussion, then hoped to try a mediation to see if an outside eye could help us work through the issues. This is in no way the rhetoric of a tendentious editor, nor is the suggestion that we get some outside help to help us deal with this issue.

Actually there is a point where ongoing circular discussion is no longer a useful way to deal with some issues, and outside assistance is useful. This discussion started before the RfC on this same sentence months ago. There is no good reason to now not ask for help in dealing with this dispute. I'm out of the energy required to argue this further with the same arguments, and points. lets see if we can have an outside make this easier for all of us. Thanks.(olive (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2011 (UTC))

Will Beback urged me to remain in this discussion, but would later support the ban based on tendentious editing. In this kind of situation I’m not sure what else an editor can do. If I’d continued to discuss I’d probably have been labeled as tendentious. So either I walk way, or walk away and ask for help. I tried to do both, but was labeled tendentious anyway. The contentious sentence itself is a separate but definitely connected issue to this ban, as it was “used” before in an earlier AE against me that despite the sanction, should any experienced editor bother to look closely at the evidence, failed to show any wrong-doing at all, let alone per the TM arbitration. I can go into that if needed. I’m also concerned about sanctions that are based on the term tendentious. When you have contentious articles, it’s very easy to use a term that relies on highly subjective judgment, and non-specific, non-concrete evidence as a kind of umbrella term under which an editor can be indescriminately sanctioned.

Ludwigs2, an uninvolved editor, after wading through multiple discussion pages on the TM article commented in the AE appeal I made He has a grasp of the discussions, and in my opinion has a pretty accurate view of the situation.

Pertinent talk page discussion:

@ arbs and Will Beback per Will Bebeack's statement:

My reasons for posting this is clearly stated above. I am neither a liar nor manipulative so Will's suggested reason for my posting didn't occur to me. What I said is what I meant.

I was encouraged to continue to deal further with the ban by these comments .

I did leave out in my statement that there is a tendency to poison the well with statements like this.

"Olive has been warned amply. Some folks are what they are, and it doesn't matter how much you tell them to act differently they will stay true to form. That's admirable in some respects, but it may mean that they don't fit into a collegial project."

Will please provide diffs of my "ample warnings", and evidence for how I don't fit into a collegial (civil) environment. This statement presents an unfair, untrue picture of my editing and editing record.

*Per disruption: Will's statement was completely expected since he's used this kind of illogical, spurious statement before. Remove any "side" from a contentious discussion and you don't have any more discussion. Will you made a statement alleging disruption. Where are the diffs and context? And I'll remind you that discussion in a contentious area, is not disruption just because editors oppose your position especially when that editor has suggested numerous times that we get outside help. I also attempted to leave the discussion when it was going nowhere, but you pushed me to remain in the discussion, and while I did leave the discussion, you then support a ban for tendentious editing.

I hope the arbs will look beyond Will's statement.

@arbs. Please give me a chance to respond later today. Sir Fozzie, that appeal was closed while two uninvolved editors had questioned the ban and while AGk specifically asked the case not be closed. This isn't the first time a case was closed before I could respond or someone else could respond to support me.

Will that's not what I said. Stop mischaracterizing me. I was in a discussion with you and Doc James. I left, and so yes with the content as you wanted it, and an editor removed things were quiet. I made a general statement, an analogy about discussion. You've made some nasty serious allegations here without evidence, and with the obvious intent of discrediting me.... again. Where are the diffs. Everyone here has seen the thread on the so called tendentious editing on the TM article, if they've read the evidence, so you don't need to go there, but show me the diffs on the multiple TM articles I've edited that show disruption. Since I know you can't because I'm neither disruptive nor uncivil as you say, you can put a lid on your mischaracterizations and misrepresentations, and you can start now.

@Jclemens: You probably have no idea what the comment you just made meant to me. Its reasonable and kind and gives me hope that I can continue to edit even in the face of what I've had to deal with. And you're right no one believes the kind of thing I 'd have to say, and the proof against the allegations against me would take a small book to rebut them, and after multiple situations like this one I'm pretty exhausted and am not sure I can continue to edit on Misplaced Pages. I do have concerns that other editors will be dealt with as I have been. Maybe that's something I can help with. Thank you for your thoughtfulness.

Question: I guess what is being said is once you are banned that's it, it doesn't matter if the ban and its appeal weren't appropriate or fair. How then does an editor make sure they get a fair hearing in the first place? How does a single, non admin editor who has not established supportive networks of like minded editors stand a chance if and when they are getting in the way of some editor and hisor her agenda. Warnings per the arbitration don't really exist. I'm not sure the arbs themselves agree on what is a warning. An arb for example, suggested that the TM arbitration itself is a warning, nothing else is needed. Doesn't this defeat the purpose of a warning which is to warn an editor they are moving into dangerous territory at least as perceived dangerous territory, when they aren't aware of it. What does one do when the same admins shows up as Future Perfect did on every AE or AE appeal, and in the first case sanctioned and closed the case before I could even defend myself. He is usually backed up by Cirt. Sandstein closed down the AE appeal when two editors indicated they thought the ban may not have been fair and where interested in reopening the case. What arbitration has to realize is that Misplaced Pages as it functions now favours certain kinds of situations, if an editor doesn't fit, they are doomed. This might be an encyclopedia anyone can edit, but it is not yet an encyclopedia where anyone can expect to be treated fairly. I would like to see a place where an editor can go to ask that a neutral, knowledgeable editor with the time and patience to watch a case, be asked to oversee AE and appeals if an editor requests it. I know that just those neutral eyes watching would thwart a lot of the goings on. At any rate I won't take this further based on Jclement's comments, unless something changes, and I thank all of the arbs for taking the time to look at this case.

Final comment to the arbs:

I've agreed, and think its best to move on per Jclemen's comments, but I wanted to make something very clear. The appeal was closed while two uninvolved editors, one an admin, were asking that the case be left open pending some serious questions about the legitimacy of the ban. The admin., AGK later suggested reopening the case. Since I wasn't sure what to do next, I asked an arbitrator, Chase Me Calvary, for assistance. He must have been called away because he didn't respond after the initial two responses, and when I asked again for help Shell kindly jumped right in to help. By this time 4-5 weeks had passed. Real Life kicked in, and finally, in the last two weeks, I had the choice to help two friends one who was dying, rather than deal with this appeal. I'm always happy to apologize if I've dome something that is a concern, but I didn't here, and that was starting to come to light. I don't buy conspiracy theories generally, but I've been dragged to AE too often on trumped up charges to not begin to ask questions. Anyway as I said, I am thankful to the arbs for their responses here and Jclemens has given me something to go forward on.

To Shell: "Complained extensively" I appealed this ban once and I then brought it here. The ban was a concern to other uninvolved editors who looked at it. Your comment is completely inexplicable. How is it that an editor who has concerns about a ban is then in the wrong. This situation is so convoluted as to be almost impossible to look at in depth and I don't expect that anyone had the time or inclination to do so, but please extend enough good faith to assume I might have a side to this story that is legitimate rather than imply out of hand there are problems with my behaviour. The implication is as well that once again I'm being judged with out a single diff. Shell you comment is unfair, and you are wrong in your judgement of me as well.

You said: " Complained about this ban extensively" I brought appeals on this ban to an AE appeal, and then here.

Per email to arbitration: I asked Arbitration on two ocassions where I should post following the appeal since an admin had suggested re opening my appeal, and since Sanstein in closing the appeal, prematurely it seemed, had said I should deal with ArbCom. This was confusing so I emailed Chase Me Ladies, one of the arbs listed in handling ban appeals. I was told by Chase Me Ladies he would get back to me. I can show you those emails. He didn't get back to me. After three weeks and noting on his talk page that said he could at anytime be called away, I emailed arbitration again asking for advice. You responded and told me to appeal here.

Diff 1 I asked Courcelles for diffs to support accusations against me when non were given.

2 and 3 link to the same comment. I was banned for tendentious editing with no evidence given. I was asking for diffs. Complaining?

This did not concern my ban. This was a request for a neutral admin, in a request for an AE warning, for an editor who had a history of unilateral editing and had removed with out discussion, in direct violation of the TM arbitration, content for and based on 8, reliable, Misplaced Pages-compliant sources.

The last three diffs are from the appeal to this ban. I made multiple comments in defense of my position. You could have linked many, many more comments made in this appeal by me and other editors. Should I have opened an appeal and not presented evidence?

Shell. In your comment you are telling me I should not ask the arbitrators for help. I should not appeal a ban, or if I do, I shouldn't post any defenses of my position. I should not go the the ANI board to ask for help, asking if a neutral admin will comment. If I am banned with out diffs or evidence, I shouldn't ask for diffs or evidence. Is that what I'm supposed to be 'getting'? Its unfair of you make the kind of accusations you have, with the diffs you presented, and out of context of an editor's history, and its unfair to conflate legitimate avenues of appeal and discussion with behaviour that is sanctionable.

Statement by Will Beback

I'm not sure exactly what is being proposed here. I was just thinking to myself how peaceful the Transcendental Meditation-related articles have been recently. The result of this remedy has been a welcome break from ~~tendentious~~ prolonged editing disputes on these topics. The temporary ban was within the scope of discretionary sanctions and the AE, and did its job ~~of preventing unhelpful disruption~~. Littleolive oil seems to be suggesting that the remedy should be nullified after the fact so as not to be used as a factor in future enforcement discussions, if any. If so, I disagree. Will Beback talk 08:12, 24 April 2011 (UTC) edited 20:00, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

The relevant diffs were provided during the AE. It's incorrect to say that an entire side in the TM matter was removed. The other editors in the topic have continued to work together in the meantime. Will Beback talk 19:09, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved editor Thryduulf (re: Littleolive oil)

While I have not investigated whether the topic ban was appropriate or not, nor whether the actions or inactions of people at AE were correct or not, I don't see the value to anyone in this request. I simply recommend that you move on, keep your nose clean and it wont be an issue again. Thryduulf (talk) 17:04, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Ludwigs2

I did look into this topic ban. There was no meaningful grounds for it and no real explanation of it given, either at the time it was given or during its original appeal. Yet another case of AE railroading... I suggest this topic ban be revoked after the fact, if only to keep it from being raised speciously to indicate a pattern of behavior in some future attempt to ban Olive. --Ludwigs2 20:59, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Statement by other editor