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Double letters

The only reason to discuss the Cyrillic е at all is to say that the combination -йе- is to be transliterated -ye- not -yye-. By changing this, we can get rid of several lines in the table which say effectively "follow the BGN transliteration". Similarly, the lines which explicitly say "follow BGN except" are unnecessary; all we need are the cases where it doesn't. Doing this will not change guidance atr all; it will just make it much easier to comprehend. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:37, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Can you please clarify if you are suggesting adding a section dealing with the -йе- combination in addition to simplifying the "e" section, or if you are suggesting simplifying the "e" section and not mentioning -йе- at all? This combination is very rare, so it's probably not worth being covered separately.
Another instance of double letters the guideline fails to mention in its current form is the "-ые" ending. The current practice is to romanize it as "-ye" ("y" for "ы" and "e" for "е"), not "-yye" ("y" for "ы" and "ye" for "е")—see, for example, Naberezhnye Chelny. Unlike -йе-, this combination is very common and is worth being covered, but (things are never easy, are they) it is seldom romanized as "ye" in the middle of the words, only when it's an ending. Otherwise it would be impossible to distinguish "въезд" from "выезд" and their numerous derivatives.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 23, 2011; 15:15 (UTC)
I'm proposing to replace the e section with a -йе- section. I would have no objection to a -ые section in parallel. But the rest of e only repeats BGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:19, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Done Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I added the rule for "-ые" Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 09:56, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Ё (ё)

Yo-yo

Our actual practice, independent of this guideline, appears to be to Romanize ё as e and to transcribe it as yo; that's also what most Romanizations do:

  • Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev (Russian: Михаил Сергеевич Горбачёв, romanized: Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachyov, IPA: ;

Let us take this as default. As usual, we can vary from the default for good reasons. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:37, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Gorbachev isn't a good example. His last name is spelled with "e" not because it's an exception to the default romanization table, but because that's what you end up with if you go through the steps outlined in the "People" section. Do you have a better example?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 23, 2011; 15:24 (UTC)
And so do most other people and places. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
People, maybe. At least those who have coverage in the English-language sources. There are also plenty of people who meet our notability criteria, but the coverage is in the sources which are not in English. The omnipresent soccer players who, unfortunately, manage to pass our notability tests, are the best illustration.
Places, not so much. The easier the use of "ё" can be documented, the more likely we are to see a push to using "yo" and not "e". From what I've observed, our articles gradually migrate to the variants with "yo", not the other way around. (And no, it wasn't me who moved them all :))—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 23, 2011; 20:46 (UTC)
Because you move them, relying on the former text of this guideline? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:49, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
See the fine print above.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 23, 2011; 20:56 (UTC)

Instead of examples we would need statistics. WP:ROMRUS is meant to document most common deviations from BGN/PCGN found in English language publications. Maybe this is a case where people are treated different to places. For people a lot of "-ёв" -> "-ev" seems to be documented. What about place names, what about non-endings? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 17:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Where does it say ROMRUS is meant to document most common deviations? This page is meant to guide WP editors on how to provide 'English' versions of Russian names to a largely non Russian-speaking audience. I think the purpose of choosing variations from the over-academic system is to make the spelling less intimidating to that audience while continuing to give an idea of the pronunciation. Anyway we could not easily find statistics to answer some of the questions we might pose.
I can understand the idea of a specific rule that says "-ёв" -> "-ev" (and "-ёва" -> "-eva" ) but if that is adopted it should be an exception to a general rule of ё -> yo. I expect there are more cases of Fyodor than Fedor, for example, and the "yo" indicates how the name/word is pronounced (so I prefer Oryol to stay put). Sussexonian (talk) 19:52, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
One of the ways in which this rule "intimidates" is by providing our readers with versions of well-known people and places which they have not seen before. It is not necessary for Romanizations to indicate pronunciations, any more than it is necessary for native English spellings to do so (Worcestershire, anybody?). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
My reference to "intimidating" is the same as yours: unfamiliar strings like "yy" in Sosnovyy Bor mean nothing to a non Russophone reader and if we can do without them so much the better. The average reader will assume that a name that has been rendered into script readable in English conveys the rough pronunciation. There is nothing we can do with Worcestershire or Łódź but we can help by using Oryol and Fyodor rather than the alternatives. Subject always to the common English name rule. Sussexonian (talk) 12:03, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't feel helped by reading a page about Oryol, which means nothing to me. I've heard of Orel; I know something about it. What we should do is to indicate that Orel, like Gorbachev, is not pronounced as it is spelt.
Fyodor is another question; it is now the conventional and customary spelling, understood by most readers. Therefore one necessary step is to indicate that the default spelling (whichever it is, even the BGN ë) should rarely be used. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:02, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
@Sussexonian "Where does it say ROMRUS is meant to document most common deviations?" - My understanding was, that WP:ROMRUS is a deviation from BGN/PCGN and that the differences to BGN/PCGN that WP:ROMRUS contains are commonly found. Ezhiki wrote: The "simplifications" were the observations of real-life usage, both indirect and direct . Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 13:26, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

WP:ROMRUS Ё rule has been removed

The WP:ROMRUS Ё rule has been removed , that would mean articles need to be moved now? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 13:56, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Not until we have a consensus guideline (which we don't), that requires their being moved. Even if we did, that would only apply to articles which don't have a customary English title. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
@customary English title - of course. So how can we get Ё out of the way. Maybe even without consensus, I mean, some people may just stay with different opinions. Shall there be a vote about Ё treatment? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 18:41, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Ё summary 2011-June

As far as I can see there are

  • BGN/PCGN romanization of Russian: Yë (yë) + Ë (ë)
    • supported by:
      • indirectly via the removal of the old WP:ROMRUS rule
  • Old WP:ROMRUS, from start of the page in 2005-12-14 , modified 2006-01-02 , removed 2011-06-24  : Yo (yo)
    • supported by:
      1. Ezhiki
      2. Sussexonian
      3. Bogdan (only for procedural reasons, no opinion on the rule itself)
  • Personal name based suggestion: E (e)
    • supported by:
      1. Pmanderson

Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 10:44, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Voting on Yo rule re-introduction for procedural reasons

The Yo rule that existed since 2005/2006 should be added back to WP:ROMRUS for procedural reasons and to allow the WP romanization system to be back in policy status. The Yo rule existed since at least 2005/2006. Since the rule affects a lot of article names, its removal or change should be discussed and if people cannot get a consensus a voting should be done.

Support re-introduction of the 2005/2006 Yo rule for procedural reasons
Oppose re-introduction of the 2005/2006 Yo rule for procedural reasons
Neutral
  • When any rule is being seriously questioned, it should either be removed, or have an "under discussion" tag, while the discussion is on-going. Mlm42 (talk) 21:03, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Voting on Yo rule re-introduction for substantive reasons

Oppose Yo rule re-introduction for substantive reasons
Neutral to Yo rule re-introduction for substantive reasons

WP:ROMRUS Ё rule 2011-June re-introduction

I re-inserted the rule. Ezhiki and Pmanderson, two opposing parties (on Ё treatment, this is not a statement about the procedural matters) did edit in WP in the last 24 h, but didn't come here two vote. I just want to accelerate the process to get this page back to policy status. The current Ё rule documents current usage in en WP. If policy change is wanted, please try to get a majority via the talk page. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Bringing WP:ROMRUS to guideline or policy level

If the Ё rules are added back, then WP:ROMRUS could be taken to guideline level? It can then be discussed how and if the Ё rules need to be changed. I think this is the only pending dispute on the enWP romanization rules? After that, we can look how to organize WP:NCRUS. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 18:27, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Now the Ё rule is back. I would like to tag WP:ROMRUS as policy now. Any opposition? Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

For the record, I'm generally content with the current wording, although I'd say to wait until July 9 to mark the page as a standing guideline (July 9 will be one full month since the original RfC). Of course, if there's additional input in the meanwhile, that can always be extended as necessary.
Also, from what I gather, there is no opposition to reinstating the full romanization table for ease of reference (do correct me if I've missed something).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 28, 2011; 17:27 (UTC)
I object to reinstate the full table. It makes the differences to BGN/PCGN harder to find. All consonants are equal, most vowels too. Mostly only certain two letter combinations are treated differently. "ease of reference" could also be claimed by those that want only a diff table. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 01:08, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Sensible. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:40, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't understand how having a full table would make locating the differences from BGN/PCGN any more difficult. The differences are documented in a separate column, and on the lines where there is nothing to document (which is most of the lines) that column's cells will be empty. I'd argue that such a setup makes the differences easier to find (they really stand out among all those empty cells), not harder. Besides, it's not the differences this table is going to be consulted for most often; it's to find out how to romanized something properly according to our guidelines. As Sussexonian previously mentioned, that'd require jumping between several pages, making the guideline less usable.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 29, 2011; 14:49 (UTC)
Currently I can see all rules on one screen. Otherwise I have to scroll. Adding more than 20 lines of non differences in between the differences of course makes locating the differences harder. That's simple logic. If the table only has the differences, one knows that each line documents a difference. Only in your setup one would need to look for specific lines.
Maybe you remember that the old version of ROMRUS had a listing outside the table to summarize the differences. Exactly because they were not easy to find. And these two places of documenting differences were not in sync.
"require jumping between several pages" You are again diving into drama, it's only two pages, BGN/PCGN linked in the intro sentence, very easy to go to. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 11:03, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, the intent of the guidelines is to guide. The page will be used most often not by you or me (or by people curious how exactly our guideline is different from the BGN/PCGN's), but by those who don't remember the romanization rules by heart and need help. Those folks are better served by seeing the whole conversion table. It's not exactly an easy task to reconcile what BGN/PCGN romanization of Russian says with what this page says, when all you have to work with is the differences. If ease of locating the differences is your only concern, then I suggest we use two tables—one as a letter-to-letter romanization guide (for people like Sussexonian), and the other one to document the differences (for you and other curious folk).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 30, 2011; 18:37 (UTC)
Two tables - fine with me. But please list the diffs first and make the diff list the normative one, while the full one is only descriptive, or how ever one would call that. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 20:50, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

-ev, -yov

I object to the rule which makes normative a transliteration of Ё as yo. When this page was discussed together with WP:NCRUS others did also. It seems obvious that its treatment should be context dependent (spell Fyodor as Fyodor, as default, unless there is some reason not to; but spell -ёв endings as -ev (as most of them are). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Who beside you? Maybe the user can be added to Wikipedia_talk:Romanization_of_Russian#.D0.81_summary_2011-June and maybe you can vote at Misplaced Pages talk:Romanization of Russian#Voting on Yo rule re-introduction. I personally have no opinion, but for procedural reasons favor reinsertion. Maybe a rule "-ev" for names would be ok for all? I would be fine with that. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 01:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
That would be a great improvement; add a sentence that other exceptions may exist, and I would join the consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:30, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I suppose one could athe question the other way: Is there something (a person, place, etc) which has a -ёв ending, and has a widely accepted English-language name ending in -yov? Because if not, then we should seriously be questioning it's use as the default.. because there are quite a few -ev endings that are widely accepted. Mlm42 (talk) 01:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
At least Britannica is using http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/433662/Oryol UPDATE: sorry this is not answering the question by Mlm24, since it does not end in -yov. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 09:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Not just Britannica. I should have mentioned this before, but it completely slipped my mind: transliterating "ё" as "yo" is also the recommendation of the Oxford Style Manual (section 11.41.2 "Transliteration"), although at the same time they recommend to transliterate it as "o" after "ж", "ч", "ш", and "щ", which isn't something often seen in use in real life. In practice, this prescribes to transliterate the "-ёв" ending as "-yov" except in "-чёв" and "-щёв", which would become "-chov" and "-shchov" ("-жёв" and "-шёв" endings are invalid or very rarely encountered in last names). I suspect Britannica follows that style guide—while their Gorbachev entry is under "Gorbachev" (presumably because that's the most common one), their entry on Pugachyov is under "Pugachov" and they routinely use "Chorny" when they mean "Chyorny".
Incidentally, the "-ий" and "-ый" endings are also covered (the recommendation is to use "-y" in proper nouns or titles).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 29, 2011; 14:42 (UTC)
That's perfectly sensible - as transliteration. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:45, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Hmm.. but Oryol doesn't end in -yov. My question was to find a widely accepted English language name whose ending is "-yov", as romanized from "-ёв".. are there any? The Oxford Style Manual is a single source, and isn't itself enough to determine what is widely accepted.. Mlm42 (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry, for my mistake that is does not end in -yov. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 10:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
But why is this important? We are supposed to research the spelling of each individual person's name anyway (either per WP:COMMONNAME or per the conventionality criteria for people in the pre-RfC WP:RUS) and use that. The default "-yov" is only going to be used for people who meet the notability criteria, but have no coverage in English sources. Including a note about the last names ending in "-ёв" seems completely redundant to me.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 29, 2011; 17:19 (UTC)
Even if such people do have notability, why should they be spelled differently than 99 out of 100 people with the same ending who are mentioned once in English sources? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:32, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm merely questioning the wisdom of setting something as the "default", when there appears to be no individual case where the "-yov" ending is widely used.. if it's not actually used, then in my opinion, it shouldn't be the default.
And the default shouldn't only be when we have no English coverage, but also when a significant proportion of English sources disagree. Mlm42 (talk) 22:12, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Using "-ev" for personal names would make the naming of people more consistent within WP. But I would like to know, how many articles are affected. Is it 10 000 articles VS 10 like Gorbachev, Khrushchev ....? Maybe in sum "-yov" is widely accepted?
Also I think Ezhiki is wrong by saying The default "-yov" is only going to be used for people who meet the notability criteria, but have no coverage in English sources. - because notability is not needed for being mentioned in articles. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 11:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
@Mlm if sources disagree should we ever use a method that isn't supported by any (or a minority) of sources. Perhaps we need a clause that says in the event of disagreement consider in order;
  1. Method WP
  2. Method BGN
  3. Method X
  4. Method Y
  5. Method Z
And use the first method that is used by the conflicting sources? Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 12:44, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
This belongs to WP:NCRUS or WP:COMMONNAME. The talk here is about "Method WP" (WP:ROMRUS). Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 15:33, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Yes, but the only reason "-yov" is being used on so many Misplaced Pages articles is because the old WP:RUS has been enforced for several years, with some editors following it very strictly.. so we can't really use that as evidence that it's "widely accepted". And of course, we're at a stage now that reliable sources may be inclined to use Misplaced Pages's spelling, so it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Mlm42 (talk) 16:38, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
The "-yov" ending is used in so many Misplaced Pages articles also because it is far from being so uncommon as the editors in this thread seem to imply. Also, a part of the reason of why the "-ev" spelling is more prevalent is because there exist quite a few last names for which (in Russian) only the ending is different (and, consequently, the stress). "Лещёв" is a common last name, but "Ле́щев" is also valid. Spelling the latter via "-yov" would, of course, be absolutely incorrect, so the bias is very much one-sided. In all, I'm pretty confident that for any Russian last name ending in "-ёв", one could find English sources which uses "-yov", and the number of the said sources will not be negligible.
As I stated above, I'm against a separate provision for the "-ёв" endings simply because no manual of style I am familiar with has such a provision. Spelling of the last names via "-ev" is predominantly caused by the optional nature of the letter "ё" in Russian, not per any style guide or as a conscious effort. If we fancy ourselves being accurate, we should make an effort to ensure that the transliterations we use are accurate as well, not go with the flow and codify a common mistake just because it happens to be so common. Every other exception to BGN/PCGN we have so far documented on this page can be traced back to at least one formal recommendation; the "-ev" thing is the only one we are homebrewing on our own (whereas "-yov" flows from the general rule of transliterating "ё" as "yo"). I tend to side with Stuart on this—identifying a list of methods to apply in questionable situations would a better approach than trying to re-invent the wheel.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); June 30, 2011; 18:19 (UTC)

I think the burden of proof lies with editors who claim that one or the other variant is more common. I'm no expert, so I don't know, but given the evidence that has been provided so far on this page, it seems to me that "-ev" is the more common and widely accepted ending in English than "-yov". I think this discussion can only proceed effectively if editors bring forward more evidence to support their claims. This applies not only to this one ending, but the letter "ё" in general (or any other disputed romanization, for that matter).

Also, Stuart's comment acknowledges that we should probably still have a "Misplaced Pages default" set of rules, which I think is the point of all this discussion. Mlm42 (talk) 21:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you about the burden of proof at all; in fact, as far as people names go, the pre-RfC WP:RUS heavily emphasized just that. The problem only exists when no English sources are available for an otherwise notable person, in which case our default is as good of a choice as any. My argument is to stick with "-yov" as a default because that's a more accurate approach. The "-ev" ending can be observed so often because when people transliterate Russian last names, they rarely bother checking whether the letter "е" is indeed a "е" or if it's in fact a "ё". If we strive to be a reliable encyclopedia, we should do better than that. There will, of course, be cases where making 100% sure whether a letter is a "е" or a "ё" is difficult to accomplish, in which case using "e" is perfectly fine (at least until more information is available), but to consciously transliterate "ё" as "e" when we know for sure it's a "ё" is just sloppy. That "everyone else is doing it" is not a good excuse, in my opinion. A commonly made mistake is still a mistake.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); July 1, 2011; 15:09 (UTC)
I agree with all this; although making an exception in favour of "-ev" looks reasonable, it could lead to a whole list of other exceptions: every Мария to be Maria not Mariya, for example, and the list of exceptions would be continually up for debate. There will always be cases where the Misplaced Pages default will produce a different spelling from the commonly accepted English version, and that can't be avoided. Sussexonian (talk) 20:38, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. Those aiming to codify every little exception often forget about this.
It's important to remember that if we have to resort to any kind of default to resolve the situations which consulting the sources can't resolve, it matters very little what that default is, as long as it follows some reputable and reasonable guidelines. Thus it makes sense that the defaults should have a broad scope, or we'll keep spending most of our time trying to pin down more and more possible exceptions instead of doing actual productive work.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); July 1, 2011; 20:52 (UTC)

I will do a draft of the sort of thing I would prefer: when there is no English writing on a subject, and no other strong reason for a particular transliteration, consider how other similar terms are transliterated; then use the default. This is, I hope, where this list comes from in the first place: noticing that ь is normally omitted in Romanization, and so on. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:55, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Added a short paragraph on method. Feel free to amend, but with this addition I would have no trouble joining the consensus, no matter what was done with Ё in the table. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:08, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I took out the portion on "the usage of the subject in other Western European languages" from the "some other clear reason to use a particular spelling" line. To me, the whole line duplicates the intent of the line above (if there is some clear reason to use a particular spelling, then English already uses it), but the example itself I just don't understand. We are romanizing a Russian name to use the result in a text in English, so what do we care what other Western European (or, for that matter, any other) languages use? If a place is not covered in any English sources but happens to be covered a lot in, say, Swedish (perhaps because some Swedish researcher's dissertation is about villages in Central Russia), why would we use the Swedish name instead of romanizing the Russian one? Such approach may sometimes be appropriate for historical references (which are mostly outside the scope of this guideline), but why use this as a title of an article about a modern place?
I also find the third bullet point about analogies too vague to be useful. If a famous person happens to have his/her last name spelled a certain way, why should it matter when choosing a spelling for the articles about completely unrelated people? Would we move someone like Ihor Chaykovskyi to "Tchaikovsky" because the last name is the same? I realize Ihor is Ukrainian, but am using him just for the sake of illustration—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); July 5, 2011; 17:29 (UTC)
I think that is right regarding "Western European" spellings, although there may be occasions, for example, where a Russian footballer signs for a German club and his name is published according to German romanization, which probably we should accept until the name becomes used in English media. But more importantly, these "method" rules should be in NCRUS for as long as the split is accepted, with this page documenting the WP romanization system and the other page defining the circumstances when it is to be used. Sussexonian (talk) 23:22, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
I still don't understand. I can see how we could occasionally have situations where such a player is not covered by any English sources but is covered by many more sources in German than in Russian, in which case using the German spelling makes sense, but if there are more reliable sources in Russian than in German (perhaps if the player only signed up for one season and didn't do much beyond the ordinary playing), why would we still stick to German? Alternatively, why is the spelling in Western European languages more important than the spelling in, say, Eastern European languages (many of which also use the Latin alphabet)? What if the said player signs up for a Romanian or Polish club?
I do agree on the split, though.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); July 8, 2011; 13:43 (UTC)
There is no "we". I have no interest in the footballer question, but if an editor specializing in footballers creates such an entry I don't think "we" should spend time changing the spelling of that person when there is no good reason to do so. But I don't suggest placing such a rule on the page. In general if a Russian person has no coverage in English language, any article would probably be created from Russian sources so WPROM would be used, no question. Sussexonian (talk) 09:01, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't have any interest in soccer players either, and what worries me isn't an occasional article that an editor specializing in soccer might put up under a (say) German spelling for no obvious reason. However, I'd be concerned if such an approach became systematic with this guideline serving as substantiation ("...but romrus says we are supposed to use the spelling in 'Western European languages'"; that kind of stuff). It'd be good to have an explanation of the reasoning behind the "Western European languages" choice, but I can see it's not forthcoming.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); July 11, 2011; 14:02 (UTC)
I agree with Ezhiki. I would go even further and say that an article not named according to the NC can be renamed. A systematic approach helps to reduce errors, like duplicated articles, red links etc. E.g. if an article is at the German spelling then there is the possibility that there are red links due to missing redirects. There is also a higher chance of false links, because it gets undetected that there are two articles with persons having the same name in Russian, but residing around under different Romanized names. I would favor having a dab in these cases under the ROMRUS romanized name, not sure this is already mentioned in WP:NCRUS. Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 13:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Join WT:NCRUS - Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (Russia)

Invitation to join the talks at

They result from Russia related text imported to WP:NCRUS from WP:NCGN Bogdan Nagachop (talk) 09:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I've posted a courtesy notice at WT:RUSSIA to inform about the continuing discussion both here and on the NCRUS talk page.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); July 1, 2011; 15:16 (UTC)

Motion to close

Apart from Bogdan's remarks on July 28, it has now been three weeks since the last substantial comment. I motion to close this discussion.

Having reviewed the comments so far, I would say that the new wording is mostly supported by all participants. The only point where some disagreement can still be seen is regarding the way we should treat the letter "ё". To that effect we have PMA's opinion that it should be romanized as "e" in most, if not all, cases, Sussexonian's opinion that it should be romanized as "yo" in all cases with the exception of the endings of the last names, Bogdan's and my procedural opinions that it should be always (where "always"="when this guideline is being applied directly", not "regardless of usage") be romanized as "yo" (as per the 2005/2006 rules), Greyhood's support for the 2005/2006 rule, and Mlm42's neutral !vote. I would say this is leaning to re-instating the 2005/2006 rule without any special provisions such as the endings of the last names. If anyone disagrees with this assessment, we can invite an uninvolved admin to re-evaluate the status of this particular item; otherwise I motion to remove the "-ёв" ending provision, remove the "under discussion" tag from the "ё" provision, move the Usage section to WP:NCRUS where it belongs and can be discussed in more detail, and change the status of this page to "active guideline". Note also that anyone feeling strongly about the "yo" clause is welcome to initiate a new discussion regarding just that clause—there's little point in holding up the whole guideline because of one item. Comments, clarifications, seconds?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); August 2, 2011; 14:14 (UTC)

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