Misplaced Pages

Talk:India

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by KRS (talk | contribs) at 14:40, 4 July 2004 (Discussion before adding). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 14:40, 4 July 2004 by KRS (talk | contribs) (Discussion before adding)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Archive 1: Talk:India/archive 1

India's main page requires culling to limit the file size under 30 Kb as per wikipedia's recommendations. Nichalp 19:27, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

Religion in India: caste

If we're going to label Hinduism as 'caste' and vice versa, we're not being faithful to reality nor NPOV. It has also to do with the nature of society and feudalism in communities that were justified by caste prejudices incorporated into religion, much like Divine Right in feudal Europe. Also, it is well-acknowledged that there does exist great caste prejudices in many non-Hindu communities in India, certainly not all, but enough that it is not merely a 'status symbol.' Also, major movements in Hinduism have, since before Buddha, been against caste. So to define all of Hinduism as embedded in caste while ignoring its history of vedanta, yoga, tantra and bhakti movements galore, is in my mind irresponsible and inaccurate. Let us discuss further. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:31, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

I know casteism is a curse, unfortunately it has crept into other religions in India which abhors it. You are right in pointing out that caste is a part of Hindu society. A lot of Goan Catholics (see any matrimonials) do brazenly proclaim that they are Brahmin Catholics, inspite of the Church against caste.

Unfortunately the Indian government, officially banning casteism, still has reservations for castes. I also wish to seek further opinion: Can a hindu marriage be sanctified by a priest who's a non brahmin? Are all Hindu priests necessarily Brahmin? Nichalp 19:00, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Well, just to clarify convention. Technically, anyone who is a Hindu priest is called a Brahmin. But of course, there is the caste. People differentiate between a practicing Brahmin and one of the Brahmin caste. Unfortunately, yes, Brahmins (priests) are usually culled only from the Brahmin caste. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, May 7, 2004 (UTC)
Just to add to LordSurya's response, in many villages in Tamil Nadu, there are no Brahmins left; because of, among other reasons, the Dravidian movement, the Brahmins have all migrated to cities. Lots of village temples thus have priests who're not Brahmins. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case in many other regions. Ambarish Talk 22:13, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Casteism hasn't crept into other religions as someone has mentioned above and in the main page. It is just that people retain or are forced to retain their caste affiliations even after conversion to other religions. KRS 03:18, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
You are quite wrong KRS. Just recently there was an uproar in Kerala because Christian converts barred lower-castes from their church and refused to let them in. No one was forcing them to do anything. In the same way, many Hindus do reject casteism and many Hindu movements from years ago reject caste categorically. --LordSuryaofShropshire 05:11, May 8, 2004 (UTC)
No, I am right as the incident you bring out itself shows - you are talking of converts, so obviously, even after changing their religion, the caste affiliations are either proudly retained or used as a means of supression in case of upper castes or are being thrust upon on lower castes; also lower caste converts retain their caste identity for benefits- for example Dalit Christians. That covers the exact meaning conveyed by my statement. The issue here is not Hinduism, but Hindu society, or rather, Indian society that is largely determined by Hindu practices. Indian society and culture should be seen as one including Muslims, Hindus and Christians, they are definitely no different. There is an Indian consciousness that separates Indian Christians or Muslims from their counterparts elsewhere. My edits in Indian society convey this clearly. KRS 06:31, 8 May 2004 (UTC)


I submit you are right. Nicely made points and changes. --LordSuryaofShropshire 22:59, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

the lodhi dynasty are pukhtun afghan, not turkic. there are some other inaccuracies as well.

Why is the Hindi being removed from the India article?

Why is the Hindi in the India article meaning "Republic of India" being removed? WhisperToMe 05:01, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

1. It is totally irrelevant here, 2. The word "India" doesn't have any relation to "Hindi" as "Japan" vs. "Japanese" or so, 3. The page is also available in Hindi

It is standard practice to give the names of countries in their own official language. john k 05:21, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

So...it is ok to add all the national languages (List of national languages of India) here???

The other languages are basically official languages for different Indian states, aren't they? So it would make more sense to list them in the articles on those states than in articles on India. English and Hindi are the two official languages of national administration, so it makes sense to give the name in Hindi, but not in the other languages, in this article. john k 06:02, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, all languages should be listed or removed as all the languages important. And it is much awkward to see translation, transliteration and explanation everything there. And it is skeptical, how many people call India as Bharat Ganarajya as stated here. Just do a Google search and all the sources linked to the Wiki and clones--no other pages or sources.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. As an official language, Hindi has a status different from that of the other national languages. It would also be impracticable to list 18 different names. So what's wrong with just giving the English and Hindi? john k 06:43, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Not sure, whether you read the previous reply or not. And couldn't understand it is the place for language or usage evangelification as no other pages refer such

Alright, I'm not sure if you read my previous reply. I have no idea what you're talking about. English and Hindi have a status in India which is above and beyond that of the other national languages. It would be impractical to list 20 different names in the box, and not very useful. As such, it makes sense to just list the English and Hindi names, and no others. This is not about Misplaced Pages promoting Hindi - it is about acknowledging the already existing fact that Hindi is an "official language" of India in a way that the other languages are not. Beyond that, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. john k 07:31, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I understand... you're discussing without knowing what I'm talking about or what the topic is about

Next time, Rjyan, use four tildes (~) after your name to identify yourself. Another thing is that you've got to prove that we do know about the topic we are discussing about. I'm siding with John on this one. Many languages are spoken in India, but they are purely regional - only Hindi and English have national status, so only they get to be featured on the India table. WhisperToMe 21:57, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Various other languages have some sort of quasi-official status, and are the official languages of individual Indian states, but they are not used by the national government. I think it would be fair to say that they should, at least in theory, all be located here. But that would be deeply awkward. Given that Hindi enjoys a special status, I find it hard to see why it should be excluded simply because it's impractical to use all 22 languages, or whatever. john k 23:16, 25 May 2004 (UTC)


Let me add my two paise's worth. India has 18 national languages, and User:John Kenney, they're not necessarily official languages of states (Sanskrit), nor are all official state languages automatically national languages (Bhojpuri, for instance). However, as John Kenney and User:WhisperToMe point out, Hindi has a constitutional status different from the other languages, and English has a still different status. This has actually long been a very contentious issue, especially in Tamil Nadu (from where both User:Rrjanbiah and I originate), where a lot of folks believe Hindi has been imposed upon them (see, for instance, http://www.thedmk.org/hindi.html). I happen to agree, but I believe Misplaced Pages should report facts, and the facts say Hindi is the sole official language of the nation, while English is quasi-official. Thus, I think the Hindi text should stay. BTW, Rrjanbiah, even if (hypothetically) the status of the 18 languages were the same, it doesn't mean all 18 languages should feature in the article. Look at South Africa, for instance. Ambarish | Talk 23:17, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
India has different "official" languages with different uses. Two are in national governmental use (they can get listed) - 16 others can be adopted by individual states but are not used nationally! Hindi, while not spoken by the majority of the people in your area, is a language used all throughout India. Only languages used all throughout India get listed. Regional languages, e.g. what is used in Tamil Nadu shouldn't get listed. South Africa is different - all of the "national languages" get the same status, and all are listed in the South Africa article, though only three are in the table.

And even then, this isn't a reason to delete the Hindi in the first place! WhisperToMe 23:25, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

There is no reason to remove hindi. Though it is not true that hindi is spoken throughout India, it has to be admitted that hindi is an official language of India in a sense that the other 21 are not.(Totally 22 languages are recogniased by the Indian Government. Bodo, Dogri, Maithili and Santhali are recent additions). Technically there are three different levels of recognition fo languages. English was to be the sole official language till 1965 when it was to have been replaced by Hindi. However, it could not be done and both hindi and english are recognised. Hindi is the official language and English the associate official language. The other 21(Assamese to Urdu) are recognised languages and are in official status below English and Hindi. THough personally peopple may feel that this is special treatment to hindi, it is the present situation in India and that should be reflected in the page. So the name in hindi need not be deleted. Whether it is right or wrong on the part of Indian Government is not the issue here. Kartheeque 05:21, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

The South Africa page, has the country named in all 11 official languages Philip Baird Shearer 13:25, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, yes. The point I was trying to make above that it's not necessary (nor would it make the article readable) to have 22 different lines in 22 different languages in the infobox on the right. Ambarish | Talk 15:52, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
As Kartheeque explained, unlike in South Africa, the languages in India operate on different levels. Only two are at "national level". The other 20 are languages which individual states are allowed to declare as individual languages. WhisperToMe 17:21, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
I think we agree that there should be English and Hindi alone in the article. However, you're wrong about the status of the 20 other languages. See my explanation above - the 20 national languages have nothing to do with state languages of individual states. Ambarish | Talk 18:47, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
From: List of national languages of India
"Additionally, it classifies a set of 18 scheduled languages which are languages that can be officially adopted by different states for administrative purposes, and also as a medium of communication between the national and the state governments, as also for examinations conducted for national government service."
It does have to do with the states. WhisperToMe 05:12, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the references, WhisperToMe. IMO, the words quoted above aren't saying anything at all - "can be officially adopted" neither means "should be adopted" nor does it mean "only these can be adopted". To cite an example, Bhojpuri and Marwari, not part of Schedule 8, are official state languages of the states of Bihar and Rajasthan respectively. Sanskrit, part of Schedule 8, isn't an official language of any state, nor is it used for any sort of day-to-day communication whatsoever. Ambarish | Talk 22:11, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The same article says that those two languages, Bhojpuri and Marwari, are largely spoken in those areas, but have no official status. If it is proven that they do have official status, then maybe we should edit that article. WhisperToMe 16:35, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Indian Army

Currently the link Army links to a page which starts The Indian Army was the British backed and led army in India I think disambiguation is needed.Philip Baird Shearer 13:25, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

Right. Modifications done Nichalp 19:24, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

Languages recognized by the Indian Constitution

According to the official Indian website http://indiaimage.nic.in/languages.htm

There are around 18 languages recognized by the Indian Constitution.

So where does this come from: Hindi, in the Devanagari script, is the national language; 21 other official languages are recognised in Schedule 8 of the Constitution.


Ok, I got it. http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/coifiles/Schedules.htm the Eighth Schedule lists 18 languages. In order: 

Languages
  1.     Assamese.
  2.     Bengali.
  3.     Gujarati.
  4.     Hindi.
  5.     Kannada.
  6.     Kashmiri.
  7.     Konkani.
  8.     Malayalam.
  9.     Manipuri.
 10.     Marathi.
 11.     Nepali.
 12.     Oriya.
 13.     Punjabi.
 14.     Sanskrit.
 15.     Sindhi.
 16.     Tamil.
 17.     Telugu.
 18.     Urdu.

--Ankur 15:46, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Discussion before adding

Please discuss any changes and additions in the talk page before adding. The page is already reaching 32 KB and any info added should be something indispensable. KRS 14:40, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)